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Re: Eckankar: 09/2006 The Mystic World

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  • ctecvie
    Hello Prometheus and all, ... *** HK can t withstand the temptation to put others down, can he? Is it True, Necessary, Kind and Loving?! ... *** How does HK
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 15, 2006
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      Hello Prometheus and all,

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp
      >
      > "The host of a call-in radio program calls himself an expert on
      > dreams. He is a psychiatrist. Callers' questions about a strange
      >or
      > haunting dream are grain for his mill.
      >
      > Most dreams are easy fixes for him. They express some unconscious
      > wish or feeling of the dreamer.

      *** Well, most of the dreams *are* that, are they not?!

      >For me, the most interesting part of
      > the program is the questions. The host's answers often hit a wall,
      > though, or dribble off into a self-satisfying string of mumbo
      >jumbo.
      > The show conveniently airs before bedtime. The few times I braved
      >a
      > segment of it, it put me in a mood to sleep.

      *** HK can't withstand the temptation to put others down, can he? Is
      it True, Necessary, Kind and Loving?!
      >
      > Recently, a caller told of a dream that baffled this dream expert.
      > The expert, an authority, would not--could not--admit that it
      > mystified him too, that it was beyond his area of expertise.
      > Most of you would have immediately known this dream for what it
      >was.
      > It was a vivid past-life experience.

      *** How does HK know that it mystified the host of the show?! So HK,
      the expert on all dreams, knows immediately that it was a vivid past-
      life experience. Well, I think this is known among dream experts as
      well! "Normal" human beings do believe in reincarnation, too!
      >
      > This dream had recurred many times over the last twenty years and
      > was notable in that it always replayed battle scenes of the
      >American
      > Civil War of the 1860s. And the dreamer always floated above them.
      > He could describe the uniforms, the cannons, the horses and their
      > riders, the weather, the soldiers' guns, the officers' swords, and
      > the like. He saw the wounded and the dead. And he could even smell
      > the smoke of cannon fire.

      *** Well, there it is again - HK's favorite topic - wars! It always
      comes down to that it seems to me! He seems to love it! :-))
      >
      > Evidently, dreams of past lives are not in the expert's repertoire
      > of explanations.
      >
      > Yet he let on that the matter was very clear to him. By some leap
      >of
      > logic I didn't follow, he tied the dream to the caller's childhood
      > on his grandfather's farm. Forget about the caller's you-are-there
      > descriptions of another time and place. To the expert it was all
      > just a subconscious expression of his feelings.

      *** I can imagine that you couldn't follow this "leap of logic", HK!
      And subconscious isn't allowed in eckankar! So just forget it, it's
      a big no-no! That's why so many eckists are controlled by their
      subconscious because HK always appeals to that, seemingly without
      knowing it! LOL!

      >
      > Other questions were brushed aside with wordy tut-tuts. This
      > exchange must have left the dreamer as puzzled as ever, driving
      >him
      > on to seek more satisfying answers from some other source.

      *** Well, one must be aware that seeking advice in a radio show
      isn't the best way to get answers to one's questions! I would go to
      see some kind of counselor, specialized on dreams perhaps!
      >
      > The greatest favor we can do for ourselves is to say we don't know
      > when we don't know.

      *** So HK, you don't know a lot - did you ever say so?!
      >
      > Vast are the worlds of ECK. The experiences we can have within
      >them
      > are more than there are stars in the heavens. Odds are strong--
      > overwhelming--that you will often run into things you could never
      > have imagined.

      *** Yes HK that happens! What counts is our response to those
      unimagined things! Well, Joan couldn't adapt too well to this
      temporary postal clerk, could she! LOL!
      >
      > This physical life has plenty of surprises too. IF your spiritual
      > unfoldment is on track, you will many times find yourself saying
      > about an experience or condition, 'I just don't know.'

      *** "Normal" humble people say that very often, too! It's because
      life is wonderful and really full of surprises which makes life here
      so great, at least for me! :-)
      >
      > BUT there are also many things you will know. And it's because the
      > Mahanta will show you.

      *** No, thanks - no need of a mahanta! :-)
      >
      > For example, what do you think the dream authority would have made
      > of this dream reported by someone we will call Belle? In the dream
      > state she was visiting friends, sitting in a large, overstuffed
      > chair. They had a huge pet lizard colored like a Gila monster, a
      > large, poisonous reptile found in Arizona, where she was born and
      > briefly lived later.
      >
      > However, Belle found this pet lizard loving and sweet. She was not
      > afraid of it. It crawled over her shoulder, down her arm, and into
      > her lap. Then it crept up her front and licked her face.
      >
      > The alarm clock rang. Since it was an odd dream, she made a note
      >of
      > it in her dream journal.
      >
      > What do you think the dream expert's analysis would have sounded
      > like?
      >
      > Well, he never would get a chance to air it, because at breakfast
      > that very morning, the Mahanta, the Inner Master, gave Belle its
      > meaning. And it rang so true.
      >
      > She was at the table eating breakfast, reading the latest issue of
      > Arizona Highways. Her attention was captured by a photo of a Gila
      > monster. Alongside it was an article on how medical scientists had
      > discovered that its saliva contained a substance to help balance
      > insulin levels in type 2 diabetes. There is also a new medication
      >on
      > the market made of a synthesized version of this substance.
      >
      > This was a health warning from the Master. Belle is not a
      >diabetic,
      > BUT for a full week, she had been craving sweet things.
      >
      > The warning said, 'You're taking in too much sugar." So she said
      > good-bye to the ice cream and cookies.

      *** Well I'm sure she would have thought about this without the
      mahanta as well because her own Higher Self, which HK tries to
      invade and take over, would have guided her there! And much better
      than HK, the mahanta, the intruder, ever could!
      >
      > Here, then, you've met two very differnt dreamers, with two very
      > different dream advisers. The Mahanta's advice is worlds beyond
      >that
      > of this other self-described expert. So very, very far beyond his.

      *** The master of the universe is the greatest expert of course! And
      why can't he speak through the radio show host for example? There's
      something called golden tongued wisdom in eckankar, and the eck
      should be able to speak through anyone, not only HK!
      >
      > Look back sometime and see how far you've come in ECK. And it's
      >all
      > because of your love for the Master."

      *** Yeah look back on how much money you have already spent to this
      silly organization to have the protection of the so-called master!
      This protection isn't worth a dime! Just rely on you own inner and
      Higher Self who doesn't need your money to make a good living out of
      it, on your expense!

      Ingrid
    • Ed Kusi
      Hi Ingrid and All, I could swear I ve read this past life dream story before in Klemp s writings. So it is not recent as he s trying to portray the article.
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 16, 2006
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        Hi Ingrid and All,
        I could swear I've read this past life dream story before in Klemp's writings. So it is not 'recent' as he's trying to portray the article. It seems to me the whole piece was 'engineered' with the recyled past life dream story. In any case, Klemp states the dream has been recurring to the dreamer for the past twenty years!
        Pretujari

        ctecvie <ctecvie@...> wrote:
        Hello Prometheus and all,

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "prometheus_ 973"
        <prometheus_ 973@...> wrote:
        >
        > "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp
        >
        > "The host of a call-in radio program calls himself an expert on
        > dreams. He is a psychiatrist. Callers' questions about a strange
        >or
        > haunting dream are grain for his mill.
        >
        > Most dreams are easy fixes for him. They express some unconscious
        > wish or feeling of the dreamer.

        *** Well, most of the dreams *are* that, are they not?!

        >For me, the most interesting part of
        > the program is the questions. The host's answers often hit a wall,
        > though, or dribble off into a self-satisfying string of mumbo
        >jumbo.
        > The show conveniently airs before bedtime. The few times I braved
        >a
        > segment of it, it put me in a mood to sleep.

        *** HK can't withstand the temptation to put others down, can he? Is
        it True, Necessary, Kind and Loving?!
        >
        > Recently, a caller told of a dream that baffled this dream expert.
        > The expert, an authority, would not--could not--admit that it
        > mystified him too, that it was beyond his area of expertise.
        > Most of you would have immediately known this dream for what it
        >was.
        > It was a vivid past-life experience.

        *** How does HK know that it mystified the host of the show?! So HK,
        the expert on all dreams, knows immediately that it was a vivid past-
        life experience. Well, I think this is known among dream experts as
        well! "Normal" human beings do believe in reincarnation, too!
        >
        > This dream had recurred many times over the last twenty years and
        > was notable in that it always replayed battle scenes of the
        >American
        > Civil War of the 1860s. And the dreamer always floated above them.
        > He could describe the uniforms, the cannons, the horses and their
        > riders, the weather, the soldiers' guns, the officers' swords, and
        > the like. He saw the wounded and the dead. And he could even smell
        > the smoke of cannon fire.

        *** Well, there it is again - HK's favorite topic - wars! It always
        comes down to that it seems to me! He seems to love it! :-))
        >
        > Evidently, dreams of past lives are not in the expert's repertoire
        > of explanations.
        >
        > Yet he let on that the matter was very clear to him. By some leap
        >of
        > logic I didn't follow, he tied the dream to the caller's childhood
        > on his grandfather' s farm. Forget about the caller's you-are-there
        > descriptions of another time and place. To the expert it was all
        > just a subconscious expression of his feelings.

        *** I can imagine that you couldn't follow this "leap of logic", HK!
        And subconscious isn't allowed in eckankar! So just forget it, it's
        a big no-no! That's why so many eckists are controlled by their
        subconscious because HK always appeals to that, seemingly without
        knowing it! LOL!

        >
        > Other questions were brushed aside with wordy tut-tuts. This
        > exchange must have left the dreamer as puzzled as ever, driving
        >him
        > on to seek more satisfying answers from some other source.

        *** Well, one must be aware that seeking advice in a radio show
        isn't the best way to get answers to one's questions! I would go to
        see some kind of counselor, specialized on dreams perhaps!
        >
        > The greatest favor we can do for ourselves is to say we don't know
        > when we don't know.

        *** So HK, you don't know a lot - did you ever say so?!
        >
        > Vast are the worlds of ECK. The experiences we can have within
        >them
        > are more than there are stars in the heavens. Odds are strong--
        > overwhelming- -that you will often run into things you could never
        > have imagined.

        *** Yes HK that happens! What counts is our response to those
        unimagined things! Well, Joan couldn't adapt too well to this
        temporary postal clerk, could she! LOL!
        >
        > This physical life has plenty of surprises too. IF your spiritual
        > unfoldment is on track, you will many times find yourself saying
        > about an experience or condition, 'I just don't know.'

        *** "Normal" humble people say that very often, too! It's because
        life is wonderful and really full of surprises which makes life here
        so great, at least for me! :-)
        >
        > BUT there are also many things you will know. And it's because the
        > Mahanta will show you.

        *** No, thanks - no need of a mahanta! :-)
        >
        > For example, what do you think the dream authority would have made
        > of this dream reported by someone we will call Belle? In the dream
        > state she was visiting friends, sitting in a large, overstuffed
        > chair. They had a huge pet lizard colored like a Gila monster, a
        > large, poisonous reptile found in Arizona, where she was born and
        > briefly lived later.
        >
        > However, Belle found this pet lizard loving and sweet. She was not
        > afraid of it. It crawled over her shoulder, down her arm, and into
        > her lap. Then it crept up her front and licked her face.
        >
        > The alarm clock rang. Since it was an odd dream, she made a note
        >of
        > it in her dream journal.
        >
        > What do you think the dream expert's analysis would have sounded
        > like?
        >
        > Well, he never would get a chance to air it, because at breakfast
        > that very morning, the Mahanta, the Inner Master, gave Belle its
        > meaning. And it rang so true.
        >
        > She was at the table eating breakfast, reading the latest issue of
        > Arizona Highways. Her attention was captured by a photo of a Gila
        > monster. Alongside it was an article on how medical scientists had
        > discovered that its saliva contained a substance to help balance
        > insulin levels in type 2 diabetes. There is also a new medication
        >on
        > the market made of a synthesized version of this substance.
        >
        > This was a health warning from the Master. Belle is not a
        >diabetic,
        > BUT for a full week, she had been craving sweet things.
        >
        > The warning said, 'You're taking in too much sugar." So she said
        > good-bye to the ice cream and cookies.

        *** Well I'm sure she would have thought about this without the
        mahanta as well because her own Higher Self, which HK tries to
        invade and take over, would have guided her there! And much better
        than HK, the mahanta, the intruder, ever could!
        >
        > Here, then, you've met two very differnt dreamers, with two very
        > different dream advisers. The Mahanta's advice is worlds beyond
        >that
        > of this other self-described expert. So very, very far beyond his.

        *** The master of the universe is the greatest expert of course! And
        why can't he speak through the radio show host for example? There's
        something called golden tongued wisdom in eckankar, and the eck
        should be able to speak through anyone, not only HK!
        >
        > Look back sometime and see how far you've come in ECK. And it's
        >all
        > because of your love for the Master."

        *** Yeah look back on how much money you have already spent to this
        silly organization to have the protection of the so-called master!
        This protection isn't worth a dime! Just rely on you own inner and
        Higher Self who doesn't need your money to make a good living out of
        it, on your expense!

        Ingrid



        How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

      • Elizabeth
        ... Klemp s writings. So it is not recent as he s trying to portray the article. It seems to me the whole piece was engineered with the recyled past life
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 16, 2006
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          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ed Kusi
          <pretujari@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Ingrid and All,
          > I could swear I've read this past life dream story before in
          Klemp's writings. So it is not 'recent' as he's trying to portray
          the article. It seems to me the whole piece was 'engineered' with
          the recyled past life dream story. In any case, Klemp states the
          dream has been recurring to the dreamer for the past twenty years!
          > Pretujari
          >
          > > "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp


          *** I agree with Pretujari, this is old recycled crap! Even if it
          were not, it isn't beyond Klemp to create a story to impress and
          sound like he is HIGHER than the average smuck! We all should be so
          enlightened by this BS... his example just goes to show you that
          his teaching and dream knowledge isn't all that thrilling or more
          special either! Actually I have read far better stuff from books /
          authors outside of the eckankrap teachings.

          More later.... got a busy day, week, month! LOL trying to get the
          kids set up for the new school year starting in a couple weeks.
          WOOHOO ;-)
          Liz
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Ingrid and All, I ll add my comments to Klemp s expert opinions on the dreams described in his article. Really though, Klemp s opinions are no better than
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 16, 2006
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            Hi Ingrid and All,
            I'll add my comments to Klemp's "expert" opinions on the dreams
            described in his article. Really though, Klemp's opinions are no
            better than anyone's, especially, that of the actual dreamer! And,
            these insights and opinions may, in many cases, have more to do
            with "us" than the original dreamer. Spirit works in mysterious ways
            and Klemp is usually oblivious to this, as well as, his ever growing
            Karmic debt!


            "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp

            HK: "The host of a call-in radio program calls himself an expert on
            dreams. He is a psychiatrist. Callers' questions about a strange
            or haunting dream are grain for his mill. Most dreams are easy fixes
            for him. They express some unconscious wish or feeling of the
            dreamer."

            [Me]
            ### Actually, the dreams of Eckists that are sent via Initiate
            Reports, etc. are also "grain" for Klemp's "mill" and are "easy
            fixes" for HK too. Klemp even uses them to "write" book upon book!
            How proud these Eckists are that get their dreams printed
            (mentioned)! However, this is just more vanity accruing for these
            proud Eckists and their wealthy puffed-up "International Who's Who
            of Intellectuals Ninth Edition" Mahanta! LOL!

            [Ingrid]
            *** Well, most of the dreams *are* that, are they not?!

            ### Yes, many dreams do express "unconscious wishes or feelings."
            However, I also see Klemp putting down the talk show host for being
            a psychiatrist. Perhaps HK still has some unresolved anger of that
            1970 visit he had when he was locked up in a Mental Instituition!
            Remember, Klemp claims he had learned "to play the game" in order to
            be released after three weeks!

            HK: "For me, the most interesting part of the program is the
            questions. The host's answers often hit a wall, though, or dribble
            off into a self-satisfying string of mumbo jumbo. The show
            conveniently airs before bedtime. The few times I braved a segment
            of it, it put me in a mood to sleep."

            *** HK can't withstand the temptation to put others down, can he? Is
            it True, Necessary, Kind and Loving?!

            ### Klemp's comments of this talk show host are getting rather nasty
            and personal it seems (more flash-backs). This reminds me of his
            nasty comments in the 09/2003 H.I. Letter towards that Third
            Temporary Postal Clerk (Fill-in) when H.K. defended Joan for her
            violating the Law of Economy (Not showing her I.D. before the clerk
            looked for her package), having too much pride of her position at
            the ESC, and for her impatience.

            HK: "Recently, a caller told of a dream that baffled this dream
            expert. The expert, an authority, would not--could not--admit that
            it mystified him too, that it was beyond his area of expertise. Most
            of you would have immediately known this dream for what it was. It
            was a vivid past-life experience."

            *** How does HK know that it mystified the host of the show?! So HK,
            the expert on all dreams, knows immediately that it was a vivid past-
            life experience. Well, I think this is known among dream experts as
            well! "Normal" human beings do believe in reincarnation, too!

            ### Doesn't Klemp also claim to be an "expert" and an "authority"
            and much much more! How arrogant! Klemp is too clueless to
            be "mystified" of anything he's a know-it-all in his (and Eckists')
            own delusional mind(s)!

            HK: "This dream had recurred many times over the last Twenty Years
            and was notable in that it always replayed battle scenes of the
            American Civil War of the 1860s. And the dreamer always floated
            above them. He could describe the uniforms, the cannons, the horses
            and their riders, the weather, the soldiers' guns, the officers'
            swords, and the like. He saw the wounded and the dead. And he could
            even smell the smoke of cannon fire." [My caps]

            *** Well, there it is again - HK's favorite topic - wars! It always
            comes down to that it seems to me! He seems to love it! :-))

            ### Yes, and HK never takes a position or to comment how futile it
            all is, or why can't we all just get along, or the "whys" of why we
            can't! This would be a good time to go more indepth and present the
            higher truths that Soul is seeking. Klemp is message is boring and
            redundant and never benefits the advanced Soul. And, aren't Eckists
            supposed to be "advanced" Souls? Where's the Spiritual Meat?!

            HK: "Evidently, dreams of past lives are not in the expert's
            repertoire of explanations. Yet he let on that the matter was very
            clear to him. By some leap of logic I didn't follow, he tied the
            dream to the caller's childhood on his grandfather's farm. Forget
            about the caller's you-are-there descriptions of another time and
            place. To the expert it was all just a subconscious expression of
            his feelings."

            *** I can imagine that you couldn't follow this "leap of logic", HK!
            And subconscious isn't allowed in eckankar! So just forget it, it's
            a big no-no! That's why so many eckists are controlled by their
            subconscious because HK always appeals to that, seemingly without
            knowing it! LOL!

            ### I agree Ingrid, why can't the LEM/Mahanta follow the "leap in
            logic?" Maybe Klemp is in denial of some childhood events that
            occurred back on his parent's farm that he refuses to face! Klemp
            does seem to hang onto anger and dwells in and recreates past events
            to suit his scamming agenda and false image.


            HK: "Other questions were brushed aside with wordy tut-tuts. This
            exchange must have left the dreamer as puzzled as ever, driving him
            on to seek more satisfying answers from some other source."

            *** Well, one must be aware that seeking advice in a radio show
            isn't the best way to get answers to one's questions! I would go to
            see some kind of counselor, specialized on dreams perhaps!

            ### Klemp needs to look into a mirror more often. HK is an expert at
            saying nothing while putting down others. Have Eckists ever read
            his "loser" comments. Do Klemp's words depict a "Loving" master or
            another Jerry Falwell?

            HK: "The greatest favor we can do for ourselves is to say we don't
            know when we don't know."

            *** So HK, you don't know a lot - did you ever say so?!

            ### Well HK did say that he couldn't follow the psychiatrist's "Leap
            of Logic," however, HK was either Not being honest (unless is is
            that stupid), or he was being sarcastic (negative).

            HK: "Vast are the worlds of ECK. The experiences we can have within
            them are more than there are stars in the heavens. Odds are strong--
            overwhelming--that you will often run into things you could never
            have imagined."

            *** Yes HK that happens! What counts is our response to those
            unimagined things! Well, Joan couldn't adapt too well to this
            temporary postal clerk, could she! LOL!

            ### Yep, that poor postal clerk! What negativity he had to fend off!
            It's a good thing that 9th Initiate Joan and 14th Initiate Harry
            aren't as powerful as they delude themselves to be! Of course, I'm
            just kidding about that. JK and HK know that it's all a scam. The
            Eckists are the only ones that are deluded!

            HK: "This physical life has plenty of surprises too. IF your
            spiritual unfoldment is on track, you will many times find yourself
            saying about an experience or condition, 'I just don't know.'"

            *** "Normal" humble people say that very often, too! It's because
            life is wonderful and really full of surprises which makes life here
            so great, at least for me! :-)

            ### It's true that sometimes we can't see what is happening or the
            reasons for it because we either don't look hard enough (aren't
            interested), we are being spared the pain of knowing the outcome
            before events play out, because we sometimes just need to learn by
            repetition, and we see and experience things according to what we
            need (for spiritual growth) and can handle.

            HK: "BUT there are also many things you will know. And it's because
            the Mahanta will show you." [My caps]

            *** No, thanks - no need of a mahanta! :-)

            ### Notice that Klemp is still using BUT and IF in his articles to
            Eckists when he stated in the 12/2005 H.I. Letter Not to or avoid
            using these words with other Eckists. Eckists shouldn't trust that
            Klemp is truthful about anything he says!

            [Second dream comments]

            HK: "For example, what do you think the dream authority would have
            made of this dream reported by someone we will call Belle? In the
            dream state she was visiting friends, sitting in a large,
            overstuffed chair. They had a huge pet lizard colored like a Gila
            monster, a large, poisonous reptile found in Arizona, where she was
            born and briefly lived later."

            ### What makes Klemp an authority? He was initiated by a Thief who
            was also a Black Magician (Gross) who was in turn initiated by the
            Eck Board of Trustees and Officers on Gail's Twitchell's behalf.
            And, the whole Eckankar scam was created by a Liar - Paul Twitchell.
            And, Rebazar was created by Twit so it isn't R.T. who "Fills-in" as
            needed either! This is just more myth. Ask Doug Marman!

            HK: "However, Belle found this pet lizard loving and sweet. She was
            not afraid of it. It crawled over her shoulder, down her arm, and
            into her lap. Then it crept up her front and licked her face. The
            alarm clock rang. Since it was an odd dream, she made a note
            of it in her dream journal."

            ### Perhaps this has more to do with Belle overcoming fear!

            HK: "What do you think the dream expert's analysis would have
            sounded like?"

            ### I guess we're about to hear what the other "expert" (HK) is
            about to say. However, you know what they say about opinions don't
            you? They are like ass holes - everyone has one!

            HK: "Well, he never would get a chance to air it, because at
            breakfast that very morning, the Mahanta, the Inner Master, gave
            Belle its meaning. And it rang so true."

            ### I'm curious as to why HK listens to this Radio Show before he
            goes to sleep. Why does the so-called LEM/Mahanta do this? Is this
            the only way he is able to dream? Sad state of affairs for Eckists!

            HK: "She was at the table eating breakfast, reading the latest issue
            of Arizona Highways. Her attention was captured by a photo of a Gila
            monster. Alongside it was an article on how medical scientists had
            discovered that its saliva contained a substance to help balance
            insulin levels in type 2 diabetes. There is also a new medication
            on the market made of a synthesized version of this substance."

            ### I'll bet that this magazine cover was seen by her prior to her
            dream and that her unconscious mind dreamed about it. Maybe it did
            have to do with her sugar intake or Not! Like I previously stated,
            maybe the dream had more to do with her facing hers fears. Or, Klemp
            is just flexing his knowledge and Who's Who intellect! LOL!

            HK: "This was a health warning from the Master. Belle is not a
            diabetic, BUT for a full week, she had been craving sweet things.
            The warning said, 'You're taking in too much sugar." So she said
            good-bye to the ice cream and cookies." [My caps]

            *** Well I'm sure she would have thought about this without the
            mahanta as well because her own Higher Self, which HK tries to
            invade and take over, would have guided her there! And much better
            than HK, the mahanta, the intruder, ever could!

            ### Very true! Klemp is very good at putting words and opinions in
            the mouth of others. This person (Soul) will figure it out without
            being misdirected by a pseudo expert and master.

            HK: "Here, then, you've met two very differnt dreamers, with two
            very different dream advisers. The Mahanta's advice is worlds beyond
            that of this other self-described expert. So very, very far beyond
            his.

            *** The master of the universe is the greatest expert of course! And
            why can't he speak through the radio show host for example? There's
            something called golden tongued wisdom in eckankar, and the eck
            should be able to speak through anyone, not only HK!

            ### Klemp makes it sound like he is the only "expert" who knows
            anything about past lives. LOL! Many thousands of people outside of
            Eckankar know much more about this topic than Klemp claims to know
            or will ever know! And, Klemp's very nasty, once again, when he
            attempts to belittle this psychiatrist by calling him a "self-
            described expert!" What does Klemp think he is? LOL! Again, I really
            believe that Klemp is still holding onto anger from his
            incarceration in a Mental Institution. IMO- HK is transferring this
            unresolved anger to all psychiatrists and other mental health
            practitioners.

            HK: "Look back sometime and see how far you've come in ECK. And it's
            all because of your love for the Master."

            *** Yeah look back on how much money you have already spent to this
            silly organization to have the protection of the so-called master!
            This protection isn't worth a dime! Just rely on you own inner and
            Higher Self who doesn't need your money to make a good living out of
            it, on your expense!

            ### True, Ingrid, money and time was wasted on a scam that created
            more and more distortions of the real Truth we were seeking. The
            harm in Eckankar is that the seeker must adopt delusion or become
            more delusional in order to fit-in and have Eckie "experiences."
            Eckankar encourages dependency and attachment to a LEM/Mahanta and
            increases one's vanity via higher initiations. Eckists, does this
            sound like it could be another Kal trap like other religions - nah!
            That's just your imagination or is it?

            Prometheus
          • mishmisha9
            Klemp is a delusional pompous ass and those who think what he says is sensible and to be believed are also delusional, but they probably are not
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 16, 2006
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              Klemp is a delusional pompous ass and those who think what he says
              is sensible and to be believed are also delusional, but they
              probably are not pompous--rather just needy in that they let a nut
              like HK to think for them and dictate what to do and when! : )

              Mish

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"
              <ewickings@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ed Kusi
              > <pretujari@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Ingrid and All,
              > > I could swear I've read this past life dream story before in
              > Klemp's writings. So it is not 'recent' as he's trying to portray
              > the article. It seems to me the whole piece was 'engineered' with
              > the recyled past life dream story. In any case, Klemp states the
              > dream has been recurring to the dreamer for the past twenty years!
              > > Pretujari
              > >
              > > > "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp
              >
              >
              > *** I agree with Pretujari, this is old recycled crap! Even if it
              > were not, it isn't beyond Klemp to create a story to impress and
              > sound like he is HIGHER than the average smuck! We all should be
              so
              > enlightened by this BS... his example just goes to show you that
              > his teaching and dream knowledge isn't all that thrilling or more
              > special either! Actually I have read far better stuff from
              books /
              > authors outside of the eckankrap teachings.
              >
              > More later.... got a busy day, week, month! LOL trying to get
              the
              > kids set up for the new school year starting in a couple weeks.
              > WOOHOO ;-)
              > Liz
              >
            • Ed Kusi
              Hi Folks, So what kind of godman is Klemp? A Godman is supposed to bring peace, light, and warmth in his/her surroundings to affect even the entire world.
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 17, 2006
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                Hi Folks,
                So what kind of ' godman' is Klemp? A 'Godman' is supposed to bring peace, light, and warmth in his/her surroundings to affect even the entire world. Not Klemp. He breaks the ground for his temple complex with deceit and lies as the foundation and twelve years later, according to his deluded followers, there's a terrorist attack and thousands of people loose their lives. Not to mention the devastation to families. If he is responsible for this then he is responsible for all the world's catastrophes since he's been around as 'mah-hon-tah.' LOL. So when was it that Klempus sneezed or stubbed his toe that many years ago that resulted in the Tsunami, H. Katrina and the like? All in the name of purification? Purification for those who loose their lives or those who are affected by the lives lost? So bloody negative for a 'Godman' and 'Chief Messenger of God in all the Universes!
                Pretujari

                prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                Hi Ingrid and All,
                I'll add my comments to Klemp's "expert" opinions on the dreams
                described in his article. Really though, Klemp's opinions are no
                better than anyone's, especially, that of the actual dreamer! And,
                these insights and opinions may, in many cases, have more to do
                with "us" than the original dreamer. Spirit works in mysterious ways
                and Klemp is usually oblivious to this, as well as, his ever growing
                Karmic debt!

                "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp

                HK: "The host of a call-in radio program calls himself an expert on
                dreams. He is a psychiatrist. Callers' questions about a strange
                or haunting dream are grain for his mill. Most dreams are easy fixes
                for him. They express some unconscious wish or feeling of the
                dreamer."

                [Me]
                ### Actually, the dreams of Eckists that are sent via Initiate
                Reports, etc. are also "grain" for Klemp's "mill" and are "easy
                fixes" for HK too. Klemp even uses them to "write" book upon book!
                How proud these Eckists are that get their dreams printed
                (mentioned)! However, this is just more vanity accruing for these
                proud Eckists and their wealthy puffed-up "International Who's Who
                of Intellectuals Ninth Edition" Mahanta! LOL!

                [Ingrid]
                *** Well, most of the dreams *are* that, are they not?!

                ### Yes, many dreams do express "unconscious wishes or feelings."
                However, I also see Klemp putting down the talk show host for being
                a psychiatrist. Perhaps HK still has some unresolved anger of that
                1970 visit he had when he was locked up in a Mental Instituition!
                Remember, Klemp claims he had learned "to play the game" in order to
                be released after three weeks!

                HK: "For me, the most interesting part of the program is the
                questions. The host's answers often hit a wall, though, or dribble
                off into a self-satisfying string of mumbo jumbo. The show
                conveniently airs before bedtime. The few times I braved a segment
                of it, it put me in a mood to sleep."

                *** HK can't withstand the temptation to put others down, can he? Is
                it True, Necessary, Kind and Loving?!

                ### Klemp's comments of this talk show host are getting rather nasty
                and personal it seems (more flash-backs) . This reminds me of his
                nasty comments in the 09/2003 H.I. Letter towards that Third
                Temporary Postal Clerk (Fill-in) when H.K. defended Joan for her
                violating the Law of Economy (Not showing her I.D. before the clerk
                looked for her package), having too much pride of her position at
                the ESC, and for her impatience.

                HK: "Recently, a caller told of a dream that baffled this dream
                expert. The expert, an authority, would not--could not--admit that
                it mystified him too, that it was beyond his area of expertise. Most
                of you would have immediately known this dream for what it was. It
                was a vivid past-life experience."

                *** How does HK know that it mystified the host of the show?! So HK,
                the expert on all dreams, knows immediately that it was a vivid past-
                life experience. Well, I think this is known among dream experts as
                well! "Normal" human beings do believe in reincarnation, too!

                ### Doesn't Klemp also claim to be an "expert" and an "authority"
                and much much more! How arrogant! Klemp is too clueless to
                be "mystified" of anything he's a know-it-all in his (and Eckists')
                own delusional mind(s)!

                HK: "This dream had recurred many times over the last Twenty Years
                and was notable in that it always replayed battle scenes of the
                American Civil War of the 1860s. And the dreamer always floated
                above them. He could describe the uniforms, the cannons, the horses
                and their riders, the weather, the soldiers' guns, the officers'
                swords, and the like. He saw the wounded and the dead. And he could
                even smell the smoke of cannon fire." [My caps]

                *** Well, there it is again - HK's favorite topic - wars! It always
                comes down to that it seems to me! He seems to love it! :-))

                ### Yes, and HK never takes a position or to comment how futile it
                all is, or why can't we all just get along, or the "whys" of why we
                can't! This would be a good time to go more indepth and present the
                higher truths that Soul is seeking. Klemp is message is boring and
                redundant and never benefits the advanced Soul. And, aren't Eckists
                supposed to be "advanced" Souls? Where's the Spiritual Meat?!

                HK: "Evidently, dreams of past lives are not in the expert's
                repertoire of explanations. Yet he let on that the matter was very
                clear to him. By some leap of logic I didn't follow, he tied the
                dream to the caller's childhood on his grandfather' s farm. Forget
                about the caller's you-are-there descriptions of another time and
                place. To the expert it was all just a subconscious expression of
                his feelings."

                *** I can imagine that you couldn't follow this "leap of logic", HK!
                And subconscious isn't allowed in eckankar! So just forget it, it's
                a big no-no! That's why so many eckists are controlled by their
                subconscious because HK always appeals to that, seemingly without
                knowing it! LOL!

                ### I agree Ingrid, why can't the LEM/Mahanta follow the "leap in
                logic?" Maybe Klemp is in denial of some childhood events that
                occurred back on his parent's farm that he refuses to face! Klemp
                does seem to hang onto anger and dwells in and recreates past events
                to suit his scamming agenda and false image.


                HK: "Other questions were brushed aside with wordy tut-tuts. This
                exchange must have left the dreamer as puzzled as ever, driving him
                on to seek more satisfying answers from some other source."

                *** Well, one must be aware that seeking advice in a radio show
                isn't the best way to get answers to one's questions! I would go to
                see some kind of counselor, specialized on dreams perhaps!

                ### Klemp needs to look into a mirror more often. HK is an expert at
                saying nothing while putting down others. Have Eckists ever read
                his "loser" comments. Do Klemp's words depict a "Loving" master or
                another Jerry Falwell?

                HK: "The greatest favor we can do for ourselves is to say we don't
                know when we don't know."

                *** So HK, you don't know a lot - did you ever say so?!

                ### Well HK did say that he couldn't follow the psychiatrist' s "Leap
                of Logic," however, HK was either Not being honest (unless is is
                that stupid), or he was being sarcastic (negative).

                HK: "Vast are the worlds of ECK. The experiences we can have within
                them are more than there are stars in the heavens. Odds are strong--
                overwhelming- -that you will often run into things you could never
                have imagined."

                *** Yes HK that happens! What counts is our response to those
                unimagined things! Well, Joan couldn't adapt too well to this
                temporary postal clerk, could she! LOL!

                ### Yep, that poor postal clerk! What negativity he had to fend off!
                It's a good thing that 9th Initiate Joan and 14th Initiate Harry
                aren't as powerful as they delude themselves to be! Of course, I'm
                just kidding about that. JK and HK know that it's all a scam. The
                Eckists are the only ones that are deluded!

                HK: "This physical life has plenty of surprises too. IF your
                spiritual unfoldment is on track, you will many times find yourself
                saying about an experience or condition, 'I just don't know.'"

                *** "Normal" humble people say that very often, too! It's because
                life is wonderful and really full of surprises which makes life here
                so great, at least for me! :-)

                ### It's true that sometimes we can't see what is happening or the
                reasons for it because we either don't look hard enough (aren't
                interested), we are being spared the pain of knowing the outcome
                before events play out, because we sometimes just need to learn by
                repetition, and we see and experience things according to what we
                need (for spiritual growth) and can handle.

                HK: "BUT there are also many things you will know. And it's because
                the Mahanta will show you." [My caps]

                *** No, thanks - no need of a mahanta! :-)

                ### Notice that Klemp is still using BUT and IF in his articles to
                Eckists when he stated in the 12/2005 H.I. Letter Not to or avoid
                using these words with other Eckists. Eckists shouldn't trust that
                Klemp is truthful about anything he says!

                [Second dream comments]

                HK: "For example, what do you think the dream authority would have
                made of this dream reported by someone we will call Belle? In the
                dream state she was visiting friends, sitting in a large,
                overstuffed chair. They had a huge pet lizard colored like a Gila
                monster, a large, poisonous reptile found in Arizona, where she was
                born and briefly lived later."

                ### What makes Klemp an authority? He was initiated by a Thief who
                was also a Black Magician (Gross) who was in turn initiated by the
                Eck Board of Trustees and Officers on Gail's Twitchell's behalf.
                And, the whole Eckankar scam was created by a Liar - Paul Twitchell.
                And, Rebazar was created by Twit so it isn't R.T. who "Fills-in" as
                needed either! This is just more myth. Ask Doug Marman!

                HK: "However, Belle found this pet lizard loving and sweet. She was
                not afraid of it. It crawled over her shoulder, down her arm, and
                into her lap. Then it crept up her front and licked her face. The
                alarm clock rang. Since it was an odd dream, she made a note
                of it in her dream journal."

                ### Perhaps this has more to do with Belle overcoming fear!

                HK: "What do you think the dream expert's analysis would have
                sounded like?"

                ### I guess we're about to hear what the other "expert" (HK) is
                about to say. However, you know what they say about opinions don't
                you? They are like ass holes - everyone has one!

                HK: "Well, he never would get a chance to air it, because at
                breakfast that very morning, the Mahanta, the Inner Master, gave
                Belle its meaning. And it rang so true."

                ### I'm curious as to why HK listens to this Radio Show before he
                goes to sleep. Why does the so-called LEM/Mahanta do this? Is this
                the only way he is able to dream? Sad state of affairs for Eckists!

                HK: "She was at the table eating breakfast, reading the latest issue
                of Arizona Highways. Her attention was captured by a photo of a Gila
                monster. Alongside it was an article on how medical scientists had
                discovered that its saliva contained a substance to help balance
                insulin levels in type 2 diabetes. There is also a new medication
                on the market made of a synthesized version of this substance."

                ### I'll bet that this magazine cover was seen by her prior to her
                dream and that her unconscious mind dreamed about it. Maybe it did
                have to do with her sugar intake or Not! Like I previously stated,
                maybe the dream had more to do with her facing hers fears. Or, Klemp
                is just flexing his knowledge and Who's Who intellect! LOL!

                HK: "This was a health warning from the Master. Belle is not a
                diabetic, BUT for a full week, she had been craving sweet things.
                The warning said, 'You're taking in too much sugar." So she said
                good-bye to the ice cream and cookies." [My caps]

                *** Well I'm sure she would have thought about this without the
                mahanta as well because her own Higher Self, which HK tries to
                invade and take over, would have guided her there! And much better
                than HK, the mahanta, the intruder, ever could!

                ### Very true! Klemp is very good at putting words and opinions in
                the mouth of others. This person (Soul) will figure it out without
                being misdirected by a pseudo expert and master.

                HK: "Here, then, you've met two very differnt dreamers, with two
                very different dream advisers. The Mahanta's advice is worlds beyond
                that of this other self-described expert. So very, very far beyond
                his.

                *** The master of the universe is the greatest expert of course! And
                why can't he speak through the radio show host for example? There's
                something called golden tongued wisdom in eckankar, and the eck
                should be able to speak through anyone, not only HK!

                ### Klemp makes it sound like he is the only "expert" who knows
                anything about past lives. LOL! Many thousands of people outside of
                Eckankar know much more about this topic than Klemp claims to know
                or will ever know! And, Klemp's very nasty, once again, when he
                attempts to belittle this psychiatrist by calling him a "self-
                described expert!" What does Klemp think he is? LOL! Again, I really
                believe that Klemp is still holding onto anger from his
                incarceration in a Mental Institution. IMO- HK is transferring this
                unresolved anger to all psychiatrists and other mental health
                practitioners.

                HK: "Look back sometime and see how far you've come in ECK. And it's
                all because of your love for the Master."

                *** Yeah look back on how much money you have already spent to this
                silly organization to have the protection of the so-called master!
                This protection isn't worth a dime! Just rely on you own inner and
                Higher Self who doesn't need your money to make a good living out of
                it, on your expense!

                ### True, Ingrid, money and time was wasted on a scam that created
                more and more distortions of the real Truth we were seeking. The
                harm in Eckankar is that the seeker must adopt delusion or become
                more delusional in order to fit-in and have Eckie "experiences. "
                Eckankar encourages dependency and attachment to a LEM/Mahanta and
                increases one's vanity via higher initiations. Eckists, does this
                sound like it could be another Kal trap like other religions - nah!
                That's just your imagination or is it?

                Prometheus




                Do you Yahoo!?
                Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

              • Elizabeth
                ... Oh, You ve Come So Far! by Harold Klemp I have been steaming about this latest scheme by Klemp! Of course when the Mahanta says YOU HAVE COME SO FAR,
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 17, 2006
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                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                  <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Klemp is a delusional pompous ass and those who think what he says
                  > is sensible and to be believed are also delusional, but they
                  > probably are not pompous--rather just needy in that they let a nut
                  > like HK to think for them and dictate what to do and when! : )
                  >
                  > Mish


                  "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp


                  I have been steaming about this latest scheme by Klemp! Of course
                  when the Mahanta says YOU HAVE COME SO FAR, these poor delusional
                  eckist will sit in agreement. The thing is, we all have come so far...
                  every single person has struggles, hardships, illnesses, ease,
                  freedom, good health and awareness etc, not just Klemp and his chosen
                  ones. Therefore I say, we all have come so far! And I will go as far
                  as to say, "I have gone FURTHER without Klemp" the Mythical God Man
                  of the entire universe!


                  Paradox

                  You will never achieve spiritual enlightenment. The you that you think
                  of as you is not you. The you that thinks of you as you is not you.
                  There is no you, so who wishes to become enlightened?

                  Who is not enlightened? Who will become enlightened? Who will be
                  enlightened?

                  Enlightenment is your destiny----more certain than sunrise. You cannot
                  fail to achieve enlightenment. Were you told otherwise? Irresistible
                  forces compel you. The universe insists. It is not within your power
                  to fail.

                  There is no path to enlightenment: It lies in all directions at all
                  times. On the journey to enlightenment, you create and destroy your
                  own path with every step.

                  No one can follow another's path. No one can step off the path. No one
                  can lead another. No one can turn back. No one can stop.

                  Enlightenment is closer than your skin, more immediate than your next
                  breath, and forever beyond your reach.

                  It need not be sought because it cannot be found. It cannot be found
                  because it cannot be lost. It cannot be lost because it is not other
                  than that which seeks.

                  The paradox is that there is no paradox.
                  Is that not the damnedest thing?

                  ~ Jed McKenna ~


                  Have a great day everyone,
                  Liz
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello All, On page 2 of the 09/2006 The Mystic World of Eckankar is a picture of Eckists sitting outside on the patio at the Temple of Eck and looking toward
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 17, 2006
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                    Hello All,
                    On page 2 of the 09/2006 "The Mystic World of Eckankar" is a picture
                    of Eckists sitting outside on the patio at the Temple of Eck and
                    looking toward the Chapel while on a visit/tour during the 2006
                    Springtime Seminar.

                    Directly under this picture is a "Spiritual Tip" titled Holy Ground.
                    The thing is that the quote (taken from the Mahanta Transcripts,
                    Book 16) contradicts the view that the Eck Temple, Chapel, ESC, is
                    Holy Ground! Therefore, why is it necessary for Eckists to make a
                    pilgrimage to Chanhassen, MN?

                    The quote points out that wherever the individual Soul
                    walks is Holy Ground and that everything is between God and Soul.
                    There is no need for a Mahanta or for Eck Masters. "Soul is the
                    center of the universe..." However, Klemp does use a "BUT" and
                    an "IF" which makes me wonder if he is being truthful.

                    HK: "BUT wherever you are is holy IF you recognize at any given
                    moment that you are in the precence of God."

                    Of course, another problem we have is with the use of the
                    word "God." Every true Eckist knows that "God" is really the Kal and
                    is Not the same as SUGMAD. This is just "common language" used to
                    make the public feel comfortable, as well as, to trick them
                    (temporarily) until they become more trusting (open) and are able to
                    handle "higher truths" via the Mahanta's guidance. LOL!

                    Klemp states that: "Sometimes we get things backward: we feel that
                    we have to go to a holy place and only there are we in the presence
                    of God. Sometimes it's a holy mountain, or a holy building."

                    So, you see - it's very interesting that this is stated directly
                    under the picture of the Eck Chapel, Temple patio, and the "Holy"
                    grounds. Perhaps this is Golden-Tongued Wisdom for all Eckists and a
                    clue for them to spend their hard earned money elsewhere instead of
                    traveling to Minneapolis for pilgrimages to the Temple and the "Holy
                    Grounds" of Chanhassen.

                    Prometheus



                    mishmisha wrote:

                    Klemp is a delusional pompous ass and those who think what he says
                    is sensible and to be believed are also delusional, but they
                    probably are not pompous--rather just needy in that they let a nut
                    like HK to think for them and dictate what to do and when! : )

                    Mish


                    "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp


                    Liz: I have been steaming about this latest scheme by Klemp! Of
                    course when the Mahanta says YOU HAVE COME SO FAR, these poor
                    delusional eckist will sit in agreement. The thing is, we all have
                    come so far... every single person has struggles, hardships,
                    illnesses, ease, freedom, good health and awareness etc, not just
                    Klemp and his chosen ones. Therefore I say, we all have come so far!
                    And I will go as far as to say, "I have gone FURTHER without Klemp"
                    the Mythical God Man of the entire universe!

                    ********************************************************************
                    Paradox by Jed McKenna

                    You will never achieve spiritual enlightenment. The you that you
                    think of as you is not you. The you that thinks of you as you is not
                    you. There is no you, so who wishes to become enlightened?

                    Who is not enlightened? Who will become enlightened? Who will be
                    enlightened?

                    Enlightenment is your destiny----more certain than sunrise. You
                    cannot fail to achieve enlightenment. Were you told otherwise?
                    Irresistible forces compel you. The universe insists. It is not
                    within your power to fail.

                    There is no path to enlightenment: It lies in all directions at all
                    times. On the journey to enlightenment, you create and destroy your
                    own path with every step.

                    No one can follow another's path. No one can step off the path. No
                    one can lead another. No one can turn back. No one can stop.

                    Enlightenment is closer than your skin, more immediate than your
                    next breath, and forever beyond your reach.

                    It need not be sought because it cannot be found. It cannot be found
                    because it cannot be lost. It cannot be lost because it is not other
                    than that which seeks.

                    The paradox is that there is no paradox. Is that not the damnedest
                    thing?
                  • mishmisha9
                    Hi, All! Here s a thought about Prometheus s observation in the recent Mystic World--is it necessary for eckists to make a pilgrimage to Chanhassen? Perhaps,
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 19, 2006
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                      Hi, All!

                      Here's a thought about Prometheus's observation in the recent Mystic
                      World--is it necessary for eckists to make a pilgrimage to
                      Chanhassen? Perhaps, Harold is subtly suggesting that it is not
                      necessary to make this travel there. Maybe, Harold is thinking if
                      they don't come in droves, he can quit getting up on stage and stop
                      giving those silly in-person talks. After all, he is not that well
                      physically and it would take yet another load off of his extremely
                      busy days! LOL!

                      We were discussing a while back about the possibility of Joan
                      becoming a co-L.E.M. so that she can take on some of these duties
                      for Harold and he could just function on the "inner" as the mahanta.
                      But now they might be re-thinking--what, the heck, no need to
                      continue the talks. If they (the chelas) don't come, Harold won't
                      have to sit up there on stage--and no need to make Joan co-L.E.M.
                      After all, the mahanta doesn't want to be second guessed, does
                      he? : )

                      As to the money not being spent? Why certainly the money chelas save
                      on travel and hotel expenses, etc., they can donate more freely and
                      directly to the Temple, and also spend more of their money on vahana
                      work and buying eck publications. It looks like a winning scheme
                      that might be in the works!

                      Meanwhile, what will Harold being doing on Oct. 22 each year? He can
                      do a video address while basking somewhere on a nice sunny warm
                      vacation retreat. Sounds like the perfect life to me! LOL!

                      Mish

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                      Hello All,
                      On page 2 of the 09/2006 "The Mystic World of Eckankar" is a picture
                      of Eckists sitting outside on the patio at the Temple of Eck and
                      looking toward the Chapel while on a visit/tour during the 2006
                      Springtime Seminar.

                      Directly under this picture is a "Spiritual Tip" titled Holy Ground.
                      The thing is that the quote (taken from the Mahanta Transcripts,
                      Book 16) contradicts the view that the Eck Temple, Chapel, ESC, is
                      Holy Ground! Therefore, why is it necessary for Eckists to make a
                      pilgrimage to Chanhassen, MN?

                      The quote points out that wherever the individual Soul
                      walks is Holy Ground and that everything is between God and Soul.
                      There is no need for a Mahanta or for Eck Masters. "Soul is the
                      center of the universe..." However, Klemp does use a "BUT" and
                      an "IF" which makes me wonder if he is being truthful.

                      HK: "BUT wherever you are is holy IF you recognize at any given
                      moment that you are in the precence of God."

                      Of course, another problem we have is with the use of the
                      word "God." Every true Eckist knows that "God" is really the Kal and
                      is Not the same as SUGMAD. This is just "common language" used to
                      make the public feel comfortable, as well as, to trick them
                      (temporarily) until they become more trusting (open) and are able to
                      handle "higher truths" via the Mahanta's guidance. LOL!

                      Klemp states that: "Sometimes we get things backward: we feel that
                      we have to go to a holy place and only there are we in the presence
                      of God. Sometimes it's a holy mountain, or a holy building."

                      So, you see - it's very interesting that this is stated directly
                      under the picture of the Eck Chapel, Temple patio, and the "Holy"
                      grounds. Perhaps this is Golden-Tongued Wisdom for all Eckists and a
                      clue for them to spend their hard earned money elsewhere instead of
                      traveling to Minneapolis for pilgrimages to the Temple and the "Holy
                      Grounds" of Chanhassen.

                      Prometheus
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello All, I just thought I d bring this current article back to the front page for anyone (especially Eckists) to read this weekend. I ll be posting Klemp s
                      Message 10 of 11 , Aug 19, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello All,
                        I just thought I'd bring this current article back to the front page
                        for anyone (especially Eckists) to read this weekend. I'll be
                        posting Klemp's 09/2006 Wisdom Notes soon. I'll look forward to
                        reading comments on HK's distorted 20/20 hindsight view of history.

                        ********************************************************************

                        Hi Ingrid and All,
                        I'll add my comments to Klemp's "expert" opinions on the dreams
                        described in his article. Really though, Klemp's opinions are no
                        better than anyone's, especially, that of the actual dreamer! And,
                        these insights and opinions may, in many cases, have more to do
                        with "us" than the original dreamer. Spirit works in mysterious ways
                        and Klemp is usually oblivious to this, as well as, his ever growing
                        Karmic debt!


                        "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp

                        HK: "The host of a call-in radio program calls himself an expert on
                        dreams. He is a psychiatrist. Callers' questions about a strange
                        or haunting dream are grain for his mill. Most dreams are easy fixes
                        for him. They express some unconscious wish or feeling of the
                        dreamer."

                        [Me]
                        ### Actually, the dreams of Eckists that are sent via Initiate
                        Reports, etc. are also "grain" for Klemp's "mill" and are "easy
                        fixes" for HK too. Klemp even uses them to "write" book upon book!
                        How proud these Eckists are that get their dreams printed
                        (mentioned)! However, this is just more vanity accruing for these
                        proud Eckists and their wealthy puffed-up "International Who's Who
                        of Intellectuals Ninth Edition" Mahanta! LOL!

                        [Ingrid]
                        *** Well, most of the dreams *are* that, are they not?!

                        ### Yes, many dreams do express "unconscious wishes or feelings."
                        However, I also see Klemp putting down the talk show host for being
                        a psychiatrist. Perhaps HK still has some unresolved anger of that
                        1970 visit he had when he was locked up in a Mental Instituition!
                        Remember, Klemp claims he had learned "to play the game" in order to
                        be released after three weeks!

                        HK: "For me, the most interesting part of the program is the
                        questions. The host's answers often hit a wall, though, or dribble
                        off into a self-satisfying string of mumbo jumbo. The show
                        conveniently airs before bedtime. The few times I braved a segment
                        of it, it put me in a mood to sleep."

                        *** HK can't withstand the temptation to put others down, can he? Is
                        it True, Necessary, Kind and Loving?!

                        ### Klemp's comments of this talk show host are getting rather nasty
                        and personal it seems (more flash-backs). This reminds me of his
                        nasty comments in the 09/2003 H.I. Letter towards that Third
                        Temporary Postal Clerk (Fill-in) when H.K. defended Joan for her
                        violating the Law of Economy (Not showing her I.D. before the clerk
                        looked for her package), having too much pride of her position at
                        the ESC, and for her impatience.

                        HK: "Recently, a caller told of a dream that baffled this dream
                        expert. The expert, an authority, would not--could not--admit that
                        it mystified him too, that it was beyond his area of expertise. Most
                        of you would have immediately known this dream for what it was. It
                        was a vivid past-life experience."

                        *** How does HK know that it mystified the host of the show?! So HK,
                        the expert on all dreams, knows immediately that it was a vivid past-
                        life experience. Well, I think this is known among dream experts as
                        well! "Normal" human beings do believe in reincarnation, too!

                        ### Doesn't Klemp also claim to be an "expert" and an "authority"
                        and much much more! How arrogant! Klemp is too clueless to
                        be "mystified" of anything he's a know-it-all in his (and Eckists')
                        own delusional mind(s)!

                        HK: "This dream had recurred many times over the last Twenty Years
                        and was notable in that it always replayed battle scenes of the
                        American Civil War of the 1860s. And the dreamer always floated
                        above them. He could describe the uniforms, the cannons, the horses
                        and their riders, the weather, the soldiers' guns, the officers'
                        swords, and the like. He saw the wounded and the dead. And he could
                        even smell the smoke of cannon fire." [My caps]

                        *** Well, there it is again - HK's favorite topic - wars! It always
                        comes down to that it seems to me! He seems to love it! :-))

                        ### Yes, and HK never takes a position or to comment how futile it
                        all is, or why can't we all just get along, or the "whys" of why we
                        can't! This would be a good time to go more indepth and present the
                        higher truths that Soul is seeking. Klemp is message is boring and
                        redundant and never benefits the advanced Soul. And, aren't Eckists
                        supposed to be "advanced" Souls? Where's the Spiritual Meat?!

                        HK: "Evidently, dreams of past lives are not in the expert's
                        repertoire of explanations. Yet he let on that the matter was very
                        clear to him. By some leap of logic I didn't follow, he tied the
                        dream to the caller's childhood on his grandfather's farm. Forget
                        about the caller's you-are-there descriptions of another time and
                        place. To the expert it was all just a subconscious expression of
                        his feelings."

                        *** I can imagine that you couldn't follow this "leap of logic", HK!
                        And subconscious isn't allowed in eckankar! So just forget it, it's
                        a big no-no! That's why so many eckists are controlled by their
                        subconscious because HK always appeals to that, seemingly without
                        knowing it! LOL!

                        ### I agree Ingrid, why can't the LEM/Mahanta follow the "leap in
                        logic?" Maybe Klemp is in denial of some childhood events that
                        occurred back on his parent's farm that he refuses to face! Klemp
                        does seem to hang onto anger and dwells in and recreates past events
                        to suit his scamming agenda and false image.


                        HK: "Other questions were brushed aside with wordy tut-tuts. This
                        exchange must have left the dreamer as puzzled as ever, driving him
                        on to seek more satisfying answers from some other source."

                        *** Well, one must be aware that seeking advice in a radio show
                        isn't the best way to get answers to one's questions! I would go to
                        see some kind of counselor, specialized on dreams perhaps!

                        ### Klemp needs to look into a mirror more often. HK is an expert at
                        saying nothing while putting down others. Have Eckists ever read
                        his "loser" comments. Do Klemp's words depict a "Loving" master or
                        another Jerry Falwell?

                        HK: "The greatest favor we can do for ourselves is to say we don't
                        know when we don't know."

                        *** So HK, you don't know a lot - did you ever say so?!

                        ### Well HK did say that he couldn't follow the psychiatrist's "Leap
                        of Logic," however, HK was either Not being honest (unless is is
                        that stupid), or he was being sarcastic (negative).

                        HK: "Vast are the worlds of ECK. The experiences we can have within
                        them are more than there are stars in the heavens. Odds are strong--
                        overwhelming--that you will often run into things you could never
                        have imagined."

                        *** Yes HK that happens! What counts is our response to those
                        unimagined things! Well, Joan couldn't adapt too well to this
                        temporary postal clerk, could she! LOL!

                        ### Yep, that poor postal clerk! What negativity he had to fend off!
                        It's a good thing that 9th Initiate Joan and 14th Initiate Harry
                        aren't as powerful as they delude themselves to be! Of course, I'm
                        just kidding about that. JK and HK know that it's all a scam. The
                        Eckists are the only ones that are deluded!

                        HK: "This physical life has plenty of surprises too. IF your
                        spiritual unfoldment is on track, you will many times find yourself
                        saying about an experience or condition, 'I just don't know.'"

                        *** "Normal" humble people say that very often, too! It's because
                        life is wonderful and really full of surprises which makes life here
                        so great, at least for me! :-)

                        ### It's true that sometimes we can't see what is happening or the
                        reasons for it because we either don't look hard enough (aren't
                        interested), we are being spared the pain of knowing the outcome
                        before events play out, because we sometimes just need to learn by
                        repetition, and we see and experience things according to what we
                        need (for spiritual growth) and can handle.

                        HK: "BUT there are also many things you will know. And it's because
                        the Mahanta will show you." [My caps]

                        *** No, thanks - no need of a mahanta! :-)

                        ### Notice that Klemp is still using BUT and IF in his articles to
                        Eckists when he stated in the 12/2005 H.I. Letter Not to or avoid
                        using these words with other Eckists. Eckists shouldn't trust that
                        Klemp is truthful about anything he says!

                        [Second dream comments]

                        HK: "For example, what do you think the dream authority would have
                        made of this dream reported by someone we will call Belle? In the
                        dream state she was visiting friends, sitting in a large,
                        overstuffed chair. They had a huge pet lizard colored like a Gila
                        monster, a large, poisonous reptile found in Arizona, where she was
                        born and briefly lived later."

                        ### What makes Klemp an authority? He was initiated by a Thief who
                        was also a Black Magician (Gross) who was in turn initiated by the
                        Eck Board of Trustees and Officers on Gail's Twitchell's behalf.
                        And, the whole Eckankar scam was created by a Liar - Paul Twitchell.
                        And, Rebazar was created by Twit so it isn't R.T. who "Fills-in" as
                        needed either! This is just more myth. Ask Doug Marman!

                        HK: "However, Belle found this pet lizard loving and sweet. She was
                        not afraid of it. It crawled over her shoulder, down her arm, and
                        into her lap. Then it crept up her front and licked her face. The
                        alarm clock rang. Since it was an odd dream, she made a note
                        of it in her dream journal."

                        ### Perhaps this has more to do with Belle overcoming fear!

                        HK: "What do you think the dream expert's analysis would have
                        sounded like?"

                        ### I guess we're about to hear what the other "expert" (HK) is
                        about to say. However, you know what they say about opinions don't
                        you? They are like ass holes - everyone has one!

                        HK: "Well, he never would get a chance to air it, because at
                        breakfast that very morning, the Mahanta, the Inner Master, gave
                        Belle its meaning. And it rang so true."

                        ### I'm curious as to why HK listens to this Radio Show before he
                        goes to sleep. Why does the so-called LEM/Mahanta do this? Is this
                        the only way he is able to dream? Sad state of affairs for Eckists!

                        HK: "She was at the table eating breakfast, reading the latest issue
                        of Arizona Highways. Her attention was captured by a photo of a Gila
                        monster. Alongside it was an article on how medical scientists had
                        discovered that its saliva contained a substance to help balance
                        insulin levels in type 2 diabetes. There is also a new medication
                        on the market made of a synthesized version of this substance."

                        ### I'll bet that this magazine cover was seen by her prior to her
                        dream and that her unconscious mind dreamed about it. Maybe it did
                        have to do with her sugar intake or Not! Like I previously stated,
                        maybe the dream had more to do with her facing hers fears. Or, Klemp
                        is just flexing his knowledge and Who's Who intellect! LOL!

                        HK: "This was a health warning from the Master. Belle is not a
                        diabetic, BUT for a full week, she had been craving sweet things.
                        The warning said, 'You're taking in too much sugar." So she said
                        good-bye to the ice cream and cookies." [My caps]

                        *** Well I'm sure she would have thought about this without the
                        mahanta as well because her own Higher Self, which HK tries to
                        invade and take over, would have guided her there! And much better
                        than HK, the mahanta, the intruder, ever could!

                        ### Very true! Klemp is very good at putting words and opinions in
                        the mouth of others. This person (Soul) will figure it out without
                        being misdirected by a pseudo expert and master.

                        HK: "Here, then, you've met two very differnt dreamers, with two
                        very different dream advisers. The Mahanta's advice is worlds beyond
                        that of this other self-described expert. So very, very far beyond
                        his.

                        *** The master of the universe is the greatest expert of course! And
                        why can't he speak through the radio show host for example? There's
                        something called golden tongued wisdom in eckankar, and the eck
                        should be able to speak through anyone, not only HK!

                        ### Klemp makes it sound like he is the only "expert" who knows
                        anything about past lives. LOL! Many thousands of people outside of
                        Eckankar know much more about this topic than Klemp claims to know
                        or will ever know! And, Klemp's very nasty, once again, when he
                        attempts to belittle this psychiatrist by calling him a "self-
                        described expert!" What does Klemp think he is? LOL! Again, I really
                        believe that Klemp is still holding onto anger from his
                        incarceration in a Mental Institution. IMO- HK is transferring this
                        unresolved anger to all psychiatrists and other mental health
                        practitioners.

                        HK: "Look back sometime and see how far you've come in ECK. And it's
                        all because of your love for the Master."

                        *** Yeah look back on how much money you have already spent to this
                        silly organization to have the protection of the so-called master!
                        This protection isn't worth a dime! Just rely on you own inner and
                        Higher Self who doesn't need your money to make a good living out of
                        it, on your expense!

                        ### True, Ingrid, money and time was wasted on a scam that created
                        more and more distortions of the real Truth we were seeking. The
                        harm in Eckankar is that the seeker must adopt delusion or become
                        more delusional in order to fit-in and have Eckie "experiences."
                        Eckankar encourages dependency and attachment to a LEM/Mahanta and
                        increases one's vanity via higher initiations. Eckists, does this
                        sound like it could be another Kal trap like other religions - nah!
                        That's just your imagination or is it?

                        Prometheus
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