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Eckankar: 09/2006 The Mystic World

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  • prometheus_973
    Oh, You ve Come So Far! by Harold Klemp The host of a call-in radio program calls himself an expert on dreams. He is a psychiatrist. Callers questions
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 15, 2006
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      "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp

      "The host of a call-in radio program calls himself an expert on
      dreams. He is a psychiatrist. Callers' questions about a strange or
      haunting dream are grain for his mill.

      Most dreams are easy fixes for him. They express some unconscious
      wish or feeling of the dreamer. For me, the most interesting part of
      the program is the questions. The host's answers often hit a wall,
      though, or dribble off into a self-satisfying string of mumbo jumbo.
      The show conveniently airs before bedtime. The few times I braved a
      segment of it, it put me in a mood to sleep.

      Recently, a caller told of a dream that baffled this dream expert.
      The expert, an authority, would not--could not--admit that it
      mystified him too, that it was beyond his area of expertise.

      Most of you would have immediately known this dream for what it was.
      It was a vivid past-life experience.

      This dream had recurred many times over the last twenty years and
      was notable in that it always replayed battle scenes of the American
      Civil War of the 1860s. And the dreamer always floated above them.
      He could describe the uniforms, the cannons, the horses and their
      riders, the weather, the soldiers' guns, the officers' swords, and
      the like. He saw the wounded and the dead. And he could even smell
      the smoke of cannon fire.

      Evidently, dreams of past lives are not in the expert's repertoire
      of explanations.

      Yet he let on that the matter was very clear to him. By some leap of
      logic I didn't follow, he tied the dream to the caller's childhood
      on his grandfather's farm. Forget about the caller's you-are-there
      descriptions of another time and place. To the expert it was all
      just a subconscious expression of his feelings.

      Other questions were brushed aside with wordy tut-tuts. This
      exchange must have left the dreamer as puzzled as ever, driving him
      on to seek more satisfying answers from some other source.

      The greatest favor we can do for ourselves is to say we don't know
      when we don't know.

      Vast are the worlds of ECK. The experiences we can have within them
      are more than there are stars in the heavens. Odds are strong--
      overwhelming--that you will often run into things you could never
      have imagined.

      This physical life has plenty of surprises too. IF your spiritual
      unfoldment is on track, you will many times find yourself saying
      about an experience or condition, 'I just don't know.'

      BUT there are also many things you will know. And it's because the
      Mahanta will show you.

      For example, what do you think the dream authority would have made
      of this dream reported by someone we will call Belle? In the dream
      state she was visiting friends, sitting in a large, overstuffed
      chair. They had a huge pet lizard colored like a Gila monster, a
      large, poisonous reptile found in Arizona, where she was born and
      briefly lived later.

      However, Belle found this pet lizard loving and sweet. She was not
      afraid of it. It crawled over her shoulder, down her arm, and into
      her lap. Then it crept up her front and licked her face.

      The alarm clock rang. Since it was an odd dream, she made a note of
      it in her dream journal.

      What do you think the dream expert's analysis would have sounded
      like?

      Well, he never would get a chance to air it, because at breakfast
      that very morning, the Mahanta, the Inner Master, gave Belle its
      meaning. And it rang so true.

      She was at the table eating breakfast, reading the latest issue of
      Arizona Highways. Her attention was captured by a photo of a Gila
      monster. Alongside it was an article on how medical scientists had
      discovered that its saliva contained a substance to help balance
      insulin levels in type 2 diabetes. There is also a new medication on
      the market made of a synthesized version of this substance.

      This was a health warning from the Master. Belle is not a diabetic,
      BUT for a full week, she had been craving sweet things.

      The warning said, 'You're taking in too much sugar." So she said
      good-bye to the ice cream and cookies.

      Here, then, you've met two very differnt dreamers, with two very
      different dream advisers. The Mahanta's advice is worlds beyond that
      of this other self-described expert. So very, very far beyond his.

      Look back sometime and see how far you've come in ECK. And it's all
      because of your love for the Master."

      ************************

      Please feel free to give your own analysis of this distorted and
      self-promoting article! I'll be adding my own take on this later! : )

      Prometheus
    • ctecvie
      Hello Prometheus and all, ... *** HK can t withstand the temptation to put others down, can he? Is it True, Necessary, Kind and Loving?! ... *** How does HK
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 15, 2006
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        Hello Prometheus and all,

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp
        >
        > "The host of a call-in radio program calls himself an expert on
        > dreams. He is a psychiatrist. Callers' questions about a strange
        >or
        > haunting dream are grain for his mill.
        >
        > Most dreams are easy fixes for him. They express some unconscious
        > wish or feeling of the dreamer.

        *** Well, most of the dreams *are* that, are they not?!

        >For me, the most interesting part of
        > the program is the questions. The host's answers often hit a wall,
        > though, or dribble off into a self-satisfying string of mumbo
        >jumbo.
        > The show conveniently airs before bedtime. The few times I braved
        >a
        > segment of it, it put me in a mood to sleep.

        *** HK can't withstand the temptation to put others down, can he? Is
        it True, Necessary, Kind and Loving?!
        >
        > Recently, a caller told of a dream that baffled this dream expert.
        > The expert, an authority, would not--could not--admit that it
        > mystified him too, that it was beyond his area of expertise.
        > Most of you would have immediately known this dream for what it
        >was.
        > It was a vivid past-life experience.

        *** How does HK know that it mystified the host of the show?! So HK,
        the expert on all dreams, knows immediately that it was a vivid past-
        life experience. Well, I think this is known among dream experts as
        well! "Normal" human beings do believe in reincarnation, too!
        >
        > This dream had recurred many times over the last twenty years and
        > was notable in that it always replayed battle scenes of the
        >American
        > Civil War of the 1860s. And the dreamer always floated above them.
        > He could describe the uniforms, the cannons, the horses and their
        > riders, the weather, the soldiers' guns, the officers' swords, and
        > the like. He saw the wounded and the dead. And he could even smell
        > the smoke of cannon fire.

        *** Well, there it is again - HK's favorite topic - wars! It always
        comes down to that it seems to me! He seems to love it! :-))
        >
        > Evidently, dreams of past lives are not in the expert's repertoire
        > of explanations.
        >
        > Yet he let on that the matter was very clear to him. By some leap
        >of
        > logic I didn't follow, he tied the dream to the caller's childhood
        > on his grandfather's farm. Forget about the caller's you-are-there
        > descriptions of another time and place. To the expert it was all
        > just a subconscious expression of his feelings.

        *** I can imagine that you couldn't follow this "leap of logic", HK!
        And subconscious isn't allowed in eckankar! So just forget it, it's
        a big no-no! That's why so many eckists are controlled by their
        subconscious because HK always appeals to that, seemingly without
        knowing it! LOL!

        >
        > Other questions were brushed aside with wordy tut-tuts. This
        > exchange must have left the dreamer as puzzled as ever, driving
        >him
        > on to seek more satisfying answers from some other source.

        *** Well, one must be aware that seeking advice in a radio show
        isn't the best way to get answers to one's questions! I would go to
        see some kind of counselor, specialized on dreams perhaps!
        >
        > The greatest favor we can do for ourselves is to say we don't know
        > when we don't know.

        *** So HK, you don't know a lot - did you ever say so?!
        >
        > Vast are the worlds of ECK. The experiences we can have within
        >them
        > are more than there are stars in the heavens. Odds are strong--
        > overwhelming--that you will often run into things you could never
        > have imagined.

        *** Yes HK that happens! What counts is our response to those
        unimagined things! Well, Joan couldn't adapt too well to this
        temporary postal clerk, could she! LOL!
        >
        > This physical life has plenty of surprises too. IF your spiritual
        > unfoldment is on track, you will many times find yourself saying
        > about an experience or condition, 'I just don't know.'

        *** "Normal" humble people say that very often, too! It's because
        life is wonderful and really full of surprises which makes life here
        so great, at least for me! :-)
        >
        > BUT there are also many things you will know. And it's because the
        > Mahanta will show you.

        *** No, thanks - no need of a mahanta! :-)
        >
        > For example, what do you think the dream authority would have made
        > of this dream reported by someone we will call Belle? In the dream
        > state she was visiting friends, sitting in a large, overstuffed
        > chair. They had a huge pet lizard colored like a Gila monster, a
        > large, poisonous reptile found in Arizona, where she was born and
        > briefly lived later.
        >
        > However, Belle found this pet lizard loving and sweet. She was not
        > afraid of it. It crawled over her shoulder, down her arm, and into
        > her lap. Then it crept up her front and licked her face.
        >
        > The alarm clock rang. Since it was an odd dream, she made a note
        >of
        > it in her dream journal.
        >
        > What do you think the dream expert's analysis would have sounded
        > like?
        >
        > Well, he never would get a chance to air it, because at breakfast
        > that very morning, the Mahanta, the Inner Master, gave Belle its
        > meaning. And it rang so true.
        >
        > She was at the table eating breakfast, reading the latest issue of
        > Arizona Highways. Her attention was captured by a photo of a Gila
        > monster. Alongside it was an article on how medical scientists had
        > discovered that its saliva contained a substance to help balance
        > insulin levels in type 2 diabetes. There is also a new medication
        >on
        > the market made of a synthesized version of this substance.
        >
        > This was a health warning from the Master. Belle is not a
        >diabetic,
        > BUT for a full week, she had been craving sweet things.
        >
        > The warning said, 'You're taking in too much sugar." So she said
        > good-bye to the ice cream and cookies.

        *** Well I'm sure she would have thought about this without the
        mahanta as well because her own Higher Self, which HK tries to
        invade and take over, would have guided her there! And much better
        than HK, the mahanta, the intruder, ever could!
        >
        > Here, then, you've met two very differnt dreamers, with two very
        > different dream advisers. The Mahanta's advice is worlds beyond
        >that
        > of this other self-described expert. So very, very far beyond his.

        *** The master of the universe is the greatest expert of course! And
        why can't he speak through the radio show host for example? There's
        something called golden tongued wisdom in eckankar, and the eck
        should be able to speak through anyone, not only HK!
        >
        > Look back sometime and see how far you've come in ECK. And it's
        >all
        > because of your love for the Master."

        *** Yeah look back on how much money you have already spent to this
        silly organization to have the protection of the so-called master!
        This protection isn't worth a dime! Just rely on you own inner and
        Higher Self who doesn't need your money to make a good living out of
        it, on your expense!

        Ingrid
      • Ed Kusi
        Hi Ingrid and All, I could swear I ve read this past life dream story before in Klemp s writings. So it is not recent as he s trying to portray the article.
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 16, 2006
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          Hi Ingrid and All,
          I could swear I've read this past life dream story before in Klemp's writings. So it is not 'recent' as he's trying to portray the article. It seems to me the whole piece was 'engineered' with the recyled past life dream story. In any case, Klemp states the dream has been recurring to the dreamer for the past twenty years!
          Pretujari

          ctecvie <ctecvie@...> wrote:
          Hello Prometheus and all,

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "prometheus_ 973"
          <prometheus_ 973@...> wrote:
          >
          > "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp
          >
          > "The host of a call-in radio program calls himself an expert on
          > dreams. He is a psychiatrist. Callers' questions about a strange
          >or
          > haunting dream are grain for his mill.
          >
          > Most dreams are easy fixes for him. They express some unconscious
          > wish or feeling of the dreamer.

          *** Well, most of the dreams *are* that, are they not?!

          >For me, the most interesting part of
          > the program is the questions. The host's answers often hit a wall,
          > though, or dribble off into a self-satisfying string of mumbo
          >jumbo.
          > The show conveniently airs before bedtime. The few times I braved
          >a
          > segment of it, it put me in a mood to sleep.

          *** HK can't withstand the temptation to put others down, can he? Is
          it True, Necessary, Kind and Loving?!
          >
          > Recently, a caller told of a dream that baffled this dream expert.
          > The expert, an authority, would not--could not--admit that it
          > mystified him too, that it was beyond his area of expertise.
          > Most of you would have immediately known this dream for what it
          >was.
          > It was a vivid past-life experience.

          *** How does HK know that it mystified the host of the show?! So HK,
          the expert on all dreams, knows immediately that it was a vivid past-
          life experience. Well, I think this is known among dream experts as
          well! "Normal" human beings do believe in reincarnation, too!
          >
          > This dream had recurred many times over the last twenty years and
          > was notable in that it always replayed battle scenes of the
          >American
          > Civil War of the 1860s. And the dreamer always floated above them.
          > He could describe the uniforms, the cannons, the horses and their
          > riders, the weather, the soldiers' guns, the officers' swords, and
          > the like. He saw the wounded and the dead. And he could even smell
          > the smoke of cannon fire.

          *** Well, there it is again - HK's favorite topic - wars! It always
          comes down to that it seems to me! He seems to love it! :-))
          >
          > Evidently, dreams of past lives are not in the expert's repertoire
          > of explanations.
          >
          > Yet he let on that the matter was very clear to him. By some leap
          >of
          > logic I didn't follow, he tied the dream to the caller's childhood
          > on his grandfather' s farm. Forget about the caller's you-are-there
          > descriptions of another time and place. To the expert it was all
          > just a subconscious expression of his feelings.

          *** I can imagine that you couldn't follow this "leap of logic", HK!
          And subconscious isn't allowed in eckankar! So just forget it, it's
          a big no-no! That's why so many eckists are controlled by their
          subconscious because HK always appeals to that, seemingly without
          knowing it! LOL!

          >
          > Other questions were brushed aside with wordy tut-tuts. This
          > exchange must have left the dreamer as puzzled as ever, driving
          >him
          > on to seek more satisfying answers from some other source.

          *** Well, one must be aware that seeking advice in a radio show
          isn't the best way to get answers to one's questions! I would go to
          see some kind of counselor, specialized on dreams perhaps!
          >
          > The greatest favor we can do for ourselves is to say we don't know
          > when we don't know.

          *** So HK, you don't know a lot - did you ever say so?!
          >
          > Vast are the worlds of ECK. The experiences we can have within
          >them
          > are more than there are stars in the heavens. Odds are strong--
          > overwhelming- -that you will often run into things you could never
          > have imagined.

          *** Yes HK that happens! What counts is our response to those
          unimagined things! Well, Joan couldn't adapt too well to this
          temporary postal clerk, could she! LOL!
          >
          > This physical life has plenty of surprises too. IF your spiritual
          > unfoldment is on track, you will many times find yourself saying
          > about an experience or condition, 'I just don't know.'

          *** "Normal" humble people say that very often, too! It's because
          life is wonderful and really full of surprises which makes life here
          so great, at least for me! :-)
          >
          > BUT there are also many things you will know. And it's because the
          > Mahanta will show you.

          *** No, thanks - no need of a mahanta! :-)
          >
          > For example, what do you think the dream authority would have made
          > of this dream reported by someone we will call Belle? In the dream
          > state she was visiting friends, sitting in a large, overstuffed
          > chair. They had a huge pet lizard colored like a Gila monster, a
          > large, poisonous reptile found in Arizona, where she was born and
          > briefly lived later.
          >
          > However, Belle found this pet lizard loving and sweet. She was not
          > afraid of it. It crawled over her shoulder, down her arm, and into
          > her lap. Then it crept up her front and licked her face.
          >
          > The alarm clock rang. Since it was an odd dream, she made a note
          >of
          > it in her dream journal.
          >
          > What do you think the dream expert's analysis would have sounded
          > like?
          >
          > Well, he never would get a chance to air it, because at breakfast
          > that very morning, the Mahanta, the Inner Master, gave Belle its
          > meaning. And it rang so true.
          >
          > She was at the table eating breakfast, reading the latest issue of
          > Arizona Highways. Her attention was captured by a photo of a Gila
          > monster. Alongside it was an article on how medical scientists had
          > discovered that its saliva contained a substance to help balance
          > insulin levels in type 2 diabetes. There is also a new medication
          >on
          > the market made of a synthesized version of this substance.
          >
          > This was a health warning from the Master. Belle is not a
          >diabetic,
          > BUT for a full week, she had been craving sweet things.
          >
          > The warning said, 'You're taking in too much sugar." So she said
          > good-bye to the ice cream and cookies.

          *** Well I'm sure she would have thought about this without the
          mahanta as well because her own Higher Self, which HK tries to
          invade and take over, would have guided her there! And much better
          than HK, the mahanta, the intruder, ever could!
          >
          > Here, then, you've met two very differnt dreamers, with two very
          > different dream advisers. The Mahanta's advice is worlds beyond
          >that
          > of this other self-described expert. So very, very far beyond his.

          *** The master of the universe is the greatest expert of course! And
          why can't he speak through the radio show host for example? There's
          something called golden tongued wisdom in eckankar, and the eck
          should be able to speak through anyone, not only HK!
          >
          > Look back sometime and see how far you've come in ECK. And it's
          >all
          > because of your love for the Master."

          *** Yeah look back on how much money you have already spent to this
          silly organization to have the protection of the so-called master!
          This protection isn't worth a dime! Just rely on you own inner and
          Higher Self who doesn't need your money to make a good living out of
          it, on your expense!

          Ingrid



          How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

        • Elizabeth
          ... Klemp s writings. So it is not recent as he s trying to portray the article. It seems to me the whole piece was engineered with the recyled past life
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 16, 2006
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            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ed Kusi
            <pretujari@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Ingrid and All,
            > I could swear I've read this past life dream story before in
            Klemp's writings. So it is not 'recent' as he's trying to portray
            the article. It seems to me the whole piece was 'engineered' with
            the recyled past life dream story. In any case, Klemp states the
            dream has been recurring to the dreamer for the past twenty years!
            > Pretujari
            >
            > > "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp


            *** I agree with Pretujari, this is old recycled crap! Even if it
            were not, it isn't beyond Klemp to create a story to impress and
            sound like he is HIGHER than the average smuck! We all should be so
            enlightened by this BS... his example just goes to show you that
            his teaching and dream knowledge isn't all that thrilling or more
            special either! Actually I have read far better stuff from books /
            authors outside of the eckankrap teachings.

            More later.... got a busy day, week, month! LOL trying to get the
            kids set up for the new school year starting in a couple weeks.
            WOOHOO ;-)
            Liz
          • prometheus_973
            Hi Ingrid and All, I ll add my comments to Klemp s expert opinions on the dreams described in his article. Really though, Klemp s opinions are no better than
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 16, 2006
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              Hi Ingrid and All,
              I'll add my comments to Klemp's "expert" opinions on the dreams
              described in his article. Really though, Klemp's opinions are no
              better than anyone's, especially, that of the actual dreamer! And,
              these insights and opinions may, in many cases, have more to do
              with "us" than the original dreamer. Spirit works in mysterious ways
              and Klemp is usually oblivious to this, as well as, his ever growing
              Karmic debt!


              "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp

              HK: "The host of a call-in radio program calls himself an expert on
              dreams. He is a psychiatrist. Callers' questions about a strange
              or haunting dream are grain for his mill. Most dreams are easy fixes
              for him. They express some unconscious wish or feeling of the
              dreamer."

              [Me]
              ### Actually, the dreams of Eckists that are sent via Initiate
              Reports, etc. are also "grain" for Klemp's "mill" and are "easy
              fixes" for HK too. Klemp even uses them to "write" book upon book!
              How proud these Eckists are that get their dreams printed
              (mentioned)! However, this is just more vanity accruing for these
              proud Eckists and their wealthy puffed-up "International Who's Who
              of Intellectuals Ninth Edition" Mahanta! LOL!

              [Ingrid]
              *** Well, most of the dreams *are* that, are they not?!

              ### Yes, many dreams do express "unconscious wishes or feelings."
              However, I also see Klemp putting down the talk show host for being
              a psychiatrist. Perhaps HK still has some unresolved anger of that
              1970 visit he had when he was locked up in a Mental Instituition!
              Remember, Klemp claims he had learned "to play the game" in order to
              be released after three weeks!

              HK: "For me, the most interesting part of the program is the
              questions. The host's answers often hit a wall, though, or dribble
              off into a self-satisfying string of mumbo jumbo. The show
              conveniently airs before bedtime. The few times I braved a segment
              of it, it put me in a mood to sleep."

              *** HK can't withstand the temptation to put others down, can he? Is
              it True, Necessary, Kind and Loving?!

              ### Klemp's comments of this talk show host are getting rather nasty
              and personal it seems (more flash-backs). This reminds me of his
              nasty comments in the 09/2003 H.I. Letter towards that Third
              Temporary Postal Clerk (Fill-in) when H.K. defended Joan for her
              violating the Law of Economy (Not showing her I.D. before the clerk
              looked for her package), having too much pride of her position at
              the ESC, and for her impatience.

              HK: "Recently, a caller told of a dream that baffled this dream
              expert. The expert, an authority, would not--could not--admit that
              it mystified him too, that it was beyond his area of expertise. Most
              of you would have immediately known this dream for what it was. It
              was a vivid past-life experience."

              *** How does HK know that it mystified the host of the show?! So HK,
              the expert on all dreams, knows immediately that it was a vivid past-
              life experience. Well, I think this is known among dream experts as
              well! "Normal" human beings do believe in reincarnation, too!

              ### Doesn't Klemp also claim to be an "expert" and an "authority"
              and much much more! How arrogant! Klemp is too clueless to
              be "mystified" of anything he's a know-it-all in his (and Eckists')
              own delusional mind(s)!

              HK: "This dream had recurred many times over the last Twenty Years
              and was notable in that it always replayed battle scenes of the
              American Civil War of the 1860s. And the dreamer always floated
              above them. He could describe the uniforms, the cannons, the horses
              and their riders, the weather, the soldiers' guns, the officers'
              swords, and the like. He saw the wounded and the dead. And he could
              even smell the smoke of cannon fire." [My caps]

              *** Well, there it is again - HK's favorite topic - wars! It always
              comes down to that it seems to me! He seems to love it! :-))

              ### Yes, and HK never takes a position or to comment how futile it
              all is, or why can't we all just get along, or the "whys" of why we
              can't! This would be a good time to go more indepth and present the
              higher truths that Soul is seeking. Klemp is message is boring and
              redundant and never benefits the advanced Soul. And, aren't Eckists
              supposed to be "advanced" Souls? Where's the Spiritual Meat?!

              HK: "Evidently, dreams of past lives are not in the expert's
              repertoire of explanations. Yet he let on that the matter was very
              clear to him. By some leap of logic I didn't follow, he tied the
              dream to the caller's childhood on his grandfather's farm. Forget
              about the caller's you-are-there descriptions of another time and
              place. To the expert it was all just a subconscious expression of
              his feelings."

              *** I can imagine that you couldn't follow this "leap of logic", HK!
              And subconscious isn't allowed in eckankar! So just forget it, it's
              a big no-no! That's why so many eckists are controlled by their
              subconscious because HK always appeals to that, seemingly without
              knowing it! LOL!

              ### I agree Ingrid, why can't the LEM/Mahanta follow the "leap in
              logic?" Maybe Klemp is in denial of some childhood events that
              occurred back on his parent's farm that he refuses to face! Klemp
              does seem to hang onto anger and dwells in and recreates past events
              to suit his scamming agenda and false image.


              HK: "Other questions were brushed aside with wordy tut-tuts. This
              exchange must have left the dreamer as puzzled as ever, driving him
              on to seek more satisfying answers from some other source."

              *** Well, one must be aware that seeking advice in a radio show
              isn't the best way to get answers to one's questions! I would go to
              see some kind of counselor, specialized on dreams perhaps!

              ### Klemp needs to look into a mirror more often. HK is an expert at
              saying nothing while putting down others. Have Eckists ever read
              his "loser" comments. Do Klemp's words depict a "Loving" master or
              another Jerry Falwell?

              HK: "The greatest favor we can do for ourselves is to say we don't
              know when we don't know."

              *** So HK, you don't know a lot - did you ever say so?!

              ### Well HK did say that he couldn't follow the psychiatrist's "Leap
              of Logic," however, HK was either Not being honest (unless is is
              that stupid), or he was being sarcastic (negative).

              HK: "Vast are the worlds of ECK. The experiences we can have within
              them are more than there are stars in the heavens. Odds are strong--
              overwhelming--that you will often run into things you could never
              have imagined."

              *** Yes HK that happens! What counts is our response to those
              unimagined things! Well, Joan couldn't adapt too well to this
              temporary postal clerk, could she! LOL!

              ### Yep, that poor postal clerk! What negativity he had to fend off!
              It's a good thing that 9th Initiate Joan and 14th Initiate Harry
              aren't as powerful as they delude themselves to be! Of course, I'm
              just kidding about that. JK and HK know that it's all a scam. The
              Eckists are the only ones that are deluded!

              HK: "This physical life has plenty of surprises too. IF your
              spiritual unfoldment is on track, you will many times find yourself
              saying about an experience or condition, 'I just don't know.'"

              *** "Normal" humble people say that very often, too! It's because
              life is wonderful and really full of surprises which makes life here
              so great, at least for me! :-)

              ### It's true that sometimes we can't see what is happening or the
              reasons for it because we either don't look hard enough (aren't
              interested), we are being spared the pain of knowing the outcome
              before events play out, because we sometimes just need to learn by
              repetition, and we see and experience things according to what we
              need (for spiritual growth) and can handle.

              HK: "BUT there are also many things you will know. And it's because
              the Mahanta will show you." [My caps]

              *** No, thanks - no need of a mahanta! :-)

              ### Notice that Klemp is still using BUT and IF in his articles to
              Eckists when he stated in the 12/2005 H.I. Letter Not to or avoid
              using these words with other Eckists. Eckists shouldn't trust that
              Klemp is truthful about anything he says!

              [Second dream comments]

              HK: "For example, what do you think the dream authority would have
              made of this dream reported by someone we will call Belle? In the
              dream state she was visiting friends, sitting in a large,
              overstuffed chair. They had a huge pet lizard colored like a Gila
              monster, a large, poisonous reptile found in Arizona, where she was
              born and briefly lived later."

              ### What makes Klemp an authority? He was initiated by a Thief who
              was also a Black Magician (Gross) who was in turn initiated by the
              Eck Board of Trustees and Officers on Gail's Twitchell's behalf.
              And, the whole Eckankar scam was created by a Liar - Paul Twitchell.
              And, Rebazar was created by Twit so it isn't R.T. who "Fills-in" as
              needed either! This is just more myth. Ask Doug Marman!

              HK: "However, Belle found this pet lizard loving and sweet. She was
              not afraid of it. It crawled over her shoulder, down her arm, and
              into her lap. Then it crept up her front and licked her face. The
              alarm clock rang. Since it was an odd dream, she made a note
              of it in her dream journal."

              ### Perhaps this has more to do with Belle overcoming fear!

              HK: "What do you think the dream expert's analysis would have
              sounded like?"

              ### I guess we're about to hear what the other "expert" (HK) is
              about to say. However, you know what they say about opinions don't
              you? They are like ass holes - everyone has one!

              HK: "Well, he never would get a chance to air it, because at
              breakfast that very morning, the Mahanta, the Inner Master, gave
              Belle its meaning. And it rang so true."

              ### I'm curious as to why HK listens to this Radio Show before he
              goes to sleep. Why does the so-called LEM/Mahanta do this? Is this
              the only way he is able to dream? Sad state of affairs for Eckists!

              HK: "She was at the table eating breakfast, reading the latest issue
              of Arizona Highways. Her attention was captured by a photo of a Gila
              monster. Alongside it was an article on how medical scientists had
              discovered that its saliva contained a substance to help balance
              insulin levels in type 2 diabetes. There is also a new medication
              on the market made of a synthesized version of this substance."

              ### I'll bet that this magazine cover was seen by her prior to her
              dream and that her unconscious mind dreamed about it. Maybe it did
              have to do with her sugar intake or Not! Like I previously stated,
              maybe the dream had more to do with her facing hers fears. Or, Klemp
              is just flexing his knowledge and Who's Who intellect! LOL!

              HK: "This was a health warning from the Master. Belle is not a
              diabetic, BUT for a full week, she had been craving sweet things.
              The warning said, 'You're taking in too much sugar." So she said
              good-bye to the ice cream and cookies." [My caps]

              *** Well I'm sure she would have thought about this without the
              mahanta as well because her own Higher Self, which HK tries to
              invade and take over, would have guided her there! And much better
              than HK, the mahanta, the intruder, ever could!

              ### Very true! Klemp is very good at putting words and opinions in
              the mouth of others. This person (Soul) will figure it out without
              being misdirected by a pseudo expert and master.

              HK: "Here, then, you've met two very differnt dreamers, with two
              very different dream advisers. The Mahanta's advice is worlds beyond
              that of this other self-described expert. So very, very far beyond
              his.

              *** The master of the universe is the greatest expert of course! And
              why can't he speak through the radio show host for example? There's
              something called golden tongued wisdom in eckankar, and the eck
              should be able to speak through anyone, not only HK!

              ### Klemp makes it sound like he is the only "expert" who knows
              anything about past lives. LOL! Many thousands of people outside of
              Eckankar know much more about this topic than Klemp claims to know
              or will ever know! And, Klemp's very nasty, once again, when he
              attempts to belittle this psychiatrist by calling him a "self-
              described expert!" What does Klemp think he is? LOL! Again, I really
              believe that Klemp is still holding onto anger from his
              incarceration in a Mental Institution. IMO- HK is transferring this
              unresolved anger to all psychiatrists and other mental health
              practitioners.

              HK: "Look back sometime and see how far you've come in ECK. And it's
              all because of your love for the Master."

              *** Yeah look back on how much money you have already spent to this
              silly organization to have the protection of the so-called master!
              This protection isn't worth a dime! Just rely on you own inner and
              Higher Self who doesn't need your money to make a good living out of
              it, on your expense!

              ### True, Ingrid, money and time was wasted on a scam that created
              more and more distortions of the real Truth we were seeking. The
              harm in Eckankar is that the seeker must adopt delusion or become
              more delusional in order to fit-in and have Eckie "experiences."
              Eckankar encourages dependency and attachment to a LEM/Mahanta and
              increases one's vanity via higher initiations. Eckists, does this
              sound like it could be another Kal trap like other religions - nah!
              That's just your imagination or is it?

              Prometheus
            • mishmisha9
              Klemp is a delusional pompous ass and those who think what he says is sensible and to be believed are also delusional, but they probably are not
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 16, 2006
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                Klemp is a delusional pompous ass and those who think what he says
                is sensible and to be believed are also delusional, but they
                probably are not pompous--rather just needy in that they let a nut
                like HK to think for them and dictate what to do and when! : )

                Mish

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"
                <ewickings@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ed Kusi
                > <pretujari@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Ingrid and All,
                > > I could swear I've read this past life dream story before in
                > Klemp's writings. So it is not 'recent' as he's trying to portray
                > the article. It seems to me the whole piece was 'engineered' with
                > the recyled past life dream story. In any case, Klemp states the
                > dream has been recurring to the dreamer for the past twenty years!
                > > Pretujari
                > >
                > > > "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp
                >
                >
                > *** I agree with Pretujari, this is old recycled crap! Even if it
                > were not, it isn't beyond Klemp to create a story to impress and
                > sound like he is HIGHER than the average smuck! We all should be
                so
                > enlightened by this BS... his example just goes to show you that
                > his teaching and dream knowledge isn't all that thrilling or more
                > special either! Actually I have read far better stuff from
                books /
                > authors outside of the eckankrap teachings.
                >
                > More later.... got a busy day, week, month! LOL trying to get
                the
                > kids set up for the new school year starting in a couple weeks.
                > WOOHOO ;-)
                > Liz
                >
              • Ed Kusi
                Hi Folks, So what kind of godman is Klemp? A Godman is supposed to bring peace, light, and warmth in his/her surroundings to affect even the entire world.
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 17, 2006
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                  Hi Folks,
                  So what kind of ' godman' is Klemp? A 'Godman' is supposed to bring peace, light, and warmth in his/her surroundings to affect even the entire world. Not Klemp. He breaks the ground for his temple complex with deceit and lies as the foundation and twelve years later, according to his deluded followers, there's a terrorist attack and thousands of people loose their lives. Not to mention the devastation to families. If he is responsible for this then he is responsible for all the world's catastrophes since he's been around as 'mah-hon-tah.' LOL. So when was it that Klempus sneezed or stubbed his toe that many years ago that resulted in the Tsunami, H. Katrina and the like? All in the name of purification? Purification for those who loose their lives or those who are affected by the lives lost? So bloody negative for a 'Godman' and 'Chief Messenger of God in all the Universes!
                  Pretujari

                  prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  Hi Ingrid and All,
                  I'll add my comments to Klemp's "expert" opinions on the dreams
                  described in his article. Really though, Klemp's opinions are no
                  better than anyone's, especially, that of the actual dreamer! And,
                  these insights and opinions may, in many cases, have more to do
                  with "us" than the original dreamer. Spirit works in mysterious ways
                  and Klemp is usually oblivious to this, as well as, his ever growing
                  Karmic debt!

                  "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp

                  HK: "The host of a call-in radio program calls himself an expert on
                  dreams. He is a psychiatrist. Callers' questions about a strange
                  or haunting dream are grain for his mill. Most dreams are easy fixes
                  for him. They express some unconscious wish or feeling of the
                  dreamer."

                  [Me]
                  ### Actually, the dreams of Eckists that are sent via Initiate
                  Reports, etc. are also "grain" for Klemp's "mill" and are "easy
                  fixes" for HK too. Klemp even uses them to "write" book upon book!
                  How proud these Eckists are that get their dreams printed
                  (mentioned)! However, this is just more vanity accruing for these
                  proud Eckists and their wealthy puffed-up "International Who's Who
                  of Intellectuals Ninth Edition" Mahanta! LOL!

                  [Ingrid]
                  *** Well, most of the dreams *are* that, are they not?!

                  ### Yes, many dreams do express "unconscious wishes or feelings."
                  However, I also see Klemp putting down the talk show host for being
                  a psychiatrist. Perhaps HK still has some unresolved anger of that
                  1970 visit he had when he was locked up in a Mental Instituition!
                  Remember, Klemp claims he had learned "to play the game" in order to
                  be released after three weeks!

                  HK: "For me, the most interesting part of the program is the
                  questions. The host's answers often hit a wall, though, or dribble
                  off into a self-satisfying string of mumbo jumbo. The show
                  conveniently airs before bedtime. The few times I braved a segment
                  of it, it put me in a mood to sleep."

                  *** HK can't withstand the temptation to put others down, can he? Is
                  it True, Necessary, Kind and Loving?!

                  ### Klemp's comments of this talk show host are getting rather nasty
                  and personal it seems (more flash-backs) . This reminds me of his
                  nasty comments in the 09/2003 H.I. Letter towards that Third
                  Temporary Postal Clerk (Fill-in) when H.K. defended Joan for her
                  violating the Law of Economy (Not showing her I.D. before the clerk
                  looked for her package), having too much pride of her position at
                  the ESC, and for her impatience.

                  HK: "Recently, a caller told of a dream that baffled this dream
                  expert. The expert, an authority, would not--could not--admit that
                  it mystified him too, that it was beyond his area of expertise. Most
                  of you would have immediately known this dream for what it was. It
                  was a vivid past-life experience."

                  *** How does HK know that it mystified the host of the show?! So HK,
                  the expert on all dreams, knows immediately that it was a vivid past-
                  life experience. Well, I think this is known among dream experts as
                  well! "Normal" human beings do believe in reincarnation, too!

                  ### Doesn't Klemp also claim to be an "expert" and an "authority"
                  and much much more! How arrogant! Klemp is too clueless to
                  be "mystified" of anything he's a know-it-all in his (and Eckists')
                  own delusional mind(s)!

                  HK: "This dream had recurred many times over the last Twenty Years
                  and was notable in that it always replayed battle scenes of the
                  American Civil War of the 1860s. And the dreamer always floated
                  above them. He could describe the uniforms, the cannons, the horses
                  and their riders, the weather, the soldiers' guns, the officers'
                  swords, and the like. He saw the wounded and the dead. And he could
                  even smell the smoke of cannon fire." [My caps]

                  *** Well, there it is again - HK's favorite topic - wars! It always
                  comes down to that it seems to me! He seems to love it! :-))

                  ### Yes, and HK never takes a position or to comment how futile it
                  all is, or why can't we all just get along, or the "whys" of why we
                  can't! This would be a good time to go more indepth and present the
                  higher truths that Soul is seeking. Klemp is message is boring and
                  redundant and never benefits the advanced Soul. And, aren't Eckists
                  supposed to be "advanced" Souls? Where's the Spiritual Meat?!

                  HK: "Evidently, dreams of past lives are not in the expert's
                  repertoire of explanations. Yet he let on that the matter was very
                  clear to him. By some leap of logic I didn't follow, he tied the
                  dream to the caller's childhood on his grandfather' s farm. Forget
                  about the caller's you-are-there descriptions of another time and
                  place. To the expert it was all just a subconscious expression of
                  his feelings."

                  *** I can imagine that you couldn't follow this "leap of logic", HK!
                  And subconscious isn't allowed in eckankar! So just forget it, it's
                  a big no-no! That's why so many eckists are controlled by their
                  subconscious because HK always appeals to that, seemingly without
                  knowing it! LOL!

                  ### I agree Ingrid, why can't the LEM/Mahanta follow the "leap in
                  logic?" Maybe Klemp is in denial of some childhood events that
                  occurred back on his parent's farm that he refuses to face! Klemp
                  does seem to hang onto anger and dwells in and recreates past events
                  to suit his scamming agenda and false image.


                  HK: "Other questions were brushed aside with wordy tut-tuts. This
                  exchange must have left the dreamer as puzzled as ever, driving him
                  on to seek more satisfying answers from some other source."

                  *** Well, one must be aware that seeking advice in a radio show
                  isn't the best way to get answers to one's questions! I would go to
                  see some kind of counselor, specialized on dreams perhaps!

                  ### Klemp needs to look into a mirror more often. HK is an expert at
                  saying nothing while putting down others. Have Eckists ever read
                  his "loser" comments. Do Klemp's words depict a "Loving" master or
                  another Jerry Falwell?

                  HK: "The greatest favor we can do for ourselves is to say we don't
                  know when we don't know."

                  *** So HK, you don't know a lot - did you ever say so?!

                  ### Well HK did say that he couldn't follow the psychiatrist' s "Leap
                  of Logic," however, HK was either Not being honest (unless is is
                  that stupid), or he was being sarcastic (negative).

                  HK: "Vast are the worlds of ECK. The experiences we can have within
                  them are more than there are stars in the heavens. Odds are strong--
                  overwhelming- -that you will often run into things you could never
                  have imagined."

                  *** Yes HK that happens! What counts is our response to those
                  unimagined things! Well, Joan couldn't adapt too well to this
                  temporary postal clerk, could she! LOL!

                  ### Yep, that poor postal clerk! What negativity he had to fend off!
                  It's a good thing that 9th Initiate Joan and 14th Initiate Harry
                  aren't as powerful as they delude themselves to be! Of course, I'm
                  just kidding about that. JK and HK know that it's all a scam. The
                  Eckists are the only ones that are deluded!

                  HK: "This physical life has plenty of surprises too. IF your
                  spiritual unfoldment is on track, you will many times find yourself
                  saying about an experience or condition, 'I just don't know.'"

                  *** "Normal" humble people say that very often, too! It's because
                  life is wonderful and really full of surprises which makes life here
                  so great, at least for me! :-)

                  ### It's true that sometimes we can't see what is happening or the
                  reasons for it because we either don't look hard enough (aren't
                  interested), we are being spared the pain of knowing the outcome
                  before events play out, because we sometimes just need to learn by
                  repetition, and we see and experience things according to what we
                  need (for spiritual growth) and can handle.

                  HK: "BUT there are also many things you will know. And it's because
                  the Mahanta will show you." [My caps]

                  *** No, thanks - no need of a mahanta! :-)

                  ### Notice that Klemp is still using BUT and IF in his articles to
                  Eckists when he stated in the 12/2005 H.I. Letter Not to or avoid
                  using these words with other Eckists. Eckists shouldn't trust that
                  Klemp is truthful about anything he says!

                  [Second dream comments]

                  HK: "For example, what do you think the dream authority would have
                  made of this dream reported by someone we will call Belle? In the
                  dream state she was visiting friends, sitting in a large,
                  overstuffed chair. They had a huge pet lizard colored like a Gila
                  monster, a large, poisonous reptile found in Arizona, where she was
                  born and briefly lived later."

                  ### What makes Klemp an authority? He was initiated by a Thief who
                  was also a Black Magician (Gross) who was in turn initiated by the
                  Eck Board of Trustees and Officers on Gail's Twitchell's behalf.
                  And, the whole Eckankar scam was created by a Liar - Paul Twitchell.
                  And, Rebazar was created by Twit so it isn't R.T. who "Fills-in" as
                  needed either! This is just more myth. Ask Doug Marman!

                  HK: "However, Belle found this pet lizard loving and sweet. She was
                  not afraid of it. It crawled over her shoulder, down her arm, and
                  into her lap. Then it crept up her front and licked her face. The
                  alarm clock rang. Since it was an odd dream, she made a note
                  of it in her dream journal."

                  ### Perhaps this has more to do with Belle overcoming fear!

                  HK: "What do you think the dream expert's analysis would have
                  sounded like?"

                  ### I guess we're about to hear what the other "expert" (HK) is
                  about to say. However, you know what they say about opinions don't
                  you? They are like ass holes - everyone has one!

                  HK: "Well, he never would get a chance to air it, because at
                  breakfast that very morning, the Mahanta, the Inner Master, gave
                  Belle its meaning. And it rang so true."

                  ### I'm curious as to why HK listens to this Radio Show before he
                  goes to sleep. Why does the so-called LEM/Mahanta do this? Is this
                  the only way he is able to dream? Sad state of affairs for Eckists!

                  HK: "She was at the table eating breakfast, reading the latest issue
                  of Arizona Highways. Her attention was captured by a photo of a Gila
                  monster. Alongside it was an article on how medical scientists had
                  discovered that its saliva contained a substance to help balance
                  insulin levels in type 2 diabetes. There is also a new medication
                  on the market made of a synthesized version of this substance."

                  ### I'll bet that this magazine cover was seen by her prior to her
                  dream and that her unconscious mind dreamed about it. Maybe it did
                  have to do with her sugar intake or Not! Like I previously stated,
                  maybe the dream had more to do with her facing hers fears. Or, Klemp
                  is just flexing his knowledge and Who's Who intellect! LOL!

                  HK: "This was a health warning from the Master. Belle is not a
                  diabetic, BUT for a full week, she had been craving sweet things.
                  The warning said, 'You're taking in too much sugar." So she said
                  good-bye to the ice cream and cookies." [My caps]

                  *** Well I'm sure she would have thought about this without the
                  mahanta as well because her own Higher Self, which HK tries to
                  invade and take over, would have guided her there! And much better
                  than HK, the mahanta, the intruder, ever could!

                  ### Very true! Klemp is very good at putting words and opinions in
                  the mouth of others. This person (Soul) will figure it out without
                  being misdirected by a pseudo expert and master.

                  HK: "Here, then, you've met two very differnt dreamers, with two
                  very different dream advisers. The Mahanta's advice is worlds beyond
                  that of this other self-described expert. So very, very far beyond
                  his.

                  *** The master of the universe is the greatest expert of course! And
                  why can't he speak through the radio show host for example? There's
                  something called golden tongued wisdom in eckankar, and the eck
                  should be able to speak through anyone, not only HK!

                  ### Klemp makes it sound like he is the only "expert" who knows
                  anything about past lives. LOL! Many thousands of people outside of
                  Eckankar know much more about this topic than Klemp claims to know
                  or will ever know! And, Klemp's very nasty, once again, when he
                  attempts to belittle this psychiatrist by calling him a "self-
                  described expert!" What does Klemp think he is? LOL! Again, I really
                  believe that Klemp is still holding onto anger from his
                  incarceration in a Mental Institution. IMO- HK is transferring this
                  unresolved anger to all psychiatrists and other mental health
                  practitioners.

                  HK: "Look back sometime and see how far you've come in ECK. And it's
                  all because of your love for the Master."

                  *** Yeah look back on how much money you have already spent to this
                  silly organization to have the protection of the so-called master!
                  This protection isn't worth a dime! Just rely on you own inner and
                  Higher Self who doesn't need your money to make a good living out of
                  it, on your expense!

                  ### True, Ingrid, money and time was wasted on a scam that created
                  more and more distortions of the real Truth we were seeking. The
                  harm in Eckankar is that the seeker must adopt delusion or become
                  more delusional in order to fit-in and have Eckie "experiences. "
                  Eckankar encourages dependency and attachment to a LEM/Mahanta and
                  increases one's vanity via higher initiations. Eckists, does this
                  sound like it could be another Kal trap like other religions - nah!
                  That's just your imagination or is it?

                  Prometheus




                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

                • Elizabeth
                  ... Oh, You ve Come So Far! by Harold Klemp I have been steaming about this latest scheme by Klemp! Of course when the Mahanta says YOU HAVE COME SO FAR,
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 17, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                    <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Klemp is a delusional pompous ass and those who think what he says
                    > is sensible and to be believed are also delusional, but they
                    > probably are not pompous--rather just needy in that they let a nut
                    > like HK to think for them and dictate what to do and when! : )
                    >
                    > Mish


                    "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp


                    I have been steaming about this latest scheme by Klemp! Of course
                    when the Mahanta says YOU HAVE COME SO FAR, these poor delusional
                    eckist will sit in agreement. The thing is, we all have come so far...
                    every single person has struggles, hardships, illnesses, ease,
                    freedom, good health and awareness etc, not just Klemp and his chosen
                    ones. Therefore I say, we all have come so far! And I will go as far
                    as to say, "I have gone FURTHER without Klemp" the Mythical God Man
                    of the entire universe!


                    Paradox

                    You will never achieve spiritual enlightenment. The you that you think
                    of as you is not you. The you that thinks of you as you is not you.
                    There is no you, so who wishes to become enlightened?

                    Who is not enlightened? Who will become enlightened? Who will be
                    enlightened?

                    Enlightenment is your destiny----more certain than sunrise. You cannot
                    fail to achieve enlightenment. Were you told otherwise? Irresistible
                    forces compel you. The universe insists. It is not within your power
                    to fail.

                    There is no path to enlightenment: It lies in all directions at all
                    times. On the journey to enlightenment, you create and destroy your
                    own path with every step.

                    No one can follow another's path. No one can step off the path. No one
                    can lead another. No one can turn back. No one can stop.

                    Enlightenment is closer than your skin, more immediate than your next
                    breath, and forever beyond your reach.

                    It need not be sought because it cannot be found. It cannot be found
                    because it cannot be lost. It cannot be lost because it is not other
                    than that which seeks.

                    The paradox is that there is no paradox.
                    Is that not the damnedest thing?

                    ~ Jed McKenna ~


                    Have a great day everyone,
                    Liz
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello All, On page 2 of the 09/2006 The Mystic World of Eckankar is a picture of Eckists sitting outside on the patio at the Temple of Eck and looking toward
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 17, 2006
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                      Hello All,
                      On page 2 of the 09/2006 "The Mystic World of Eckankar" is a picture
                      of Eckists sitting outside on the patio at the Temple of Eck and
                      looking toward the Chapel while on a visit/tour during the 2006
                      Springtime Seminar.

                      Directly under this picture is a "Spiritual Tip" titled Holy Ground.
                      The thing is that the quote (taken from the Mahanta Transcripts,
                      Book 16) contradicts the view that the Eck Temple, Chapel, ESC, is
                      Holy Ground! Therefore, why is it necessary for Eckists to make a
                      pilgrimage to Chanhassen, MN?

                      The quote points out that wherever the individual Soul
                      walks is Holy Ground and that everything is between God and Soul.
                      There is no need for a Mahanta or for Eck Masters. "Soul is the
                      center of the universe..." However, Klemp does use a "BUT" and
                      an "IF" which makes me wonder if he is being truthful.

                      HK: "BUT wherever you are is holy IF you recognize at any given
                      moment that you are in the precence of God."

                      Of course, another problem we have is with the use of the
                      word "God." Every true Eckist knows that "God" is really the Kal and
                      is Not the same as SUGMAD. This is just "common language" used to
                      make the public feel comfortable, as well as, to trick them
                      (temporarily) until they become more trusting (open) and are able to
                      handle "higher truths" via the Mahanta's guidance. LOL!

                      Klemp states that: "Sometimes we get things backward: we feel that
                      we have to go to a holy place and only there are we in the presence
                      of God. Sometimes it's a holy mountain, or a holy building."

                      So, you see - it's very interesting that this is stated directly
                      under the picture of the Eck Chapel, Temple patio, and the "Holy"
                      grounds. Perhaps this is Golden-Tongued Wisdom for all Eckists and a
                      clue for them to spend their hard earned money elsewhere instead of
                      traveling to Minneapolis for pilgrimages to the Temple and the "Holy
                      Grounds" of Chanhassen.

                      Prometheus



                      mishmisha wrote:

                      Klemp is a delusional pompous ass and those who think what he says
                      is sensible and to be believed are also delusional, but they
                      probably are not pompous--rather just needy in that they let a nut
                      like HK to think for them and dictate what to do and when! : )

                      Mish


                      "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp


                      Liz: I have been steaming about this latest scheme by Klemp! Of
                      course when the Mahanta says YOU HAVE COME SO FAR, these poor
                      delusional eckist will sit in agreement. The thing is, we all have
                      come so far... every single person has struggles, hardships,
                      illnesses, ease, freedom, good health and awareness etc, not just
                      Klemp and his chosen ones. Therefore I say, we all have come so far!
                      And I will go as far as to say, "I have gone FURTHER without Klemp"
                      the Mythical God Man of the entire universe!

                      ********************************************************************
                      Paradox by Jed McKenna

                      You will never achieve spiritual enlightenment. The you that you
                      think of as you is not you. The you that thinks of you as you is not
                      you. There is no you, so who wishes to become enlightened?

                      Who is not enlightened? Who will become enlightened? Who will be
                      enlightened?

                      Enlightenment is your destiny----more certain than sunrise. You
                      cannot fail to achieve enlightenment. Were you told otherwise?
                      Irresistible forces compel you. The universe insists. It is not
                      within your power to fail.

                      There is no path to enlightenment: It lies in all directions at all
                      times. On the journey to enlightenment, you create and destroy your
                      own path with every step.

                      No one can follow another's path. No one can step off the path. No
                      one can lead another. No one can turn back. No one can stop.

                      Enlightenment is closer than your skin, more immediate than your
                      next breath, and forever beyond your reach.

                      It need not be sought because it cannot be found. It cannot be found
                      because it cannot be lost. It cannot be lost because it is not other
                      than that which seeks.

                      The paradox is that there is no paradox. Is that not the damnedest
                      thing?
                    • mishmisha9
                      Hi, All! Here s a thought about Prometheus s observation in the recent Mystic World--is it necessary for eckists to make a pilgrimage to Chanhassen? Perhaps,
                      Message 10 of 11 , Aug 19, 2006
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                        Hi, All!

                        Here's a thought about Prometheus's observation in the recent Mystic
                        World--is it necessary for eckists to make a pilgrimage to
                        Chanhassen? Perhaps, Harold is subtly suggesting that it is not
                        necessary to make this travel there. Maybe, Harold is thinking if
                        they don't come in droves, he can quit getting up on stage and stop
                        giving those silly in-person talks. After all, he is not that well
                        physically and it would take yet another load off of his extremely
                        busy days! LOL!

                        We were discussing a while back about the possibility of Joan
                        becoming a co-L.E.M. so that she can take on some of these duties
                        for Harold and he could just function on the "inner" as the mahanta.
                        But now they might be re-thinking--what, the heck, no need to
                        continue the talks. If they (the chelas) don't come, Harold won't
                        have to sit up there on stage--and no need to make Joan co-L.E.M.
                        After all, the mahanta doesn't want to be second guessed, does
                        he? : )

                        As to the money not being spent? Why certainly the money chelas save
                        on travel and hotel expenses, etc., they can donate more freely and
                        directly to the Temple, and also spend more of their money on vahana
                        work and buying eck publications. It looks like a winning scheme
                        that might be in the works!

                        Meanwhile, what will Harold being doing on Oct. 22 each year? He can
                        do a video address while basking somewhere on a nice sunny warm
                        vacation retreat. Sounds like the perfect life to me! LOL!

                        Mish

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                        Hello All,
                        On page 2 of the 09/2006 "The Mystic World of Eckankar" is a picture
                        of Eckists sitting outside on the patio at the Temple of Eck and
                        looking toward the Chapel while on a visit/tour during the 2006
                        Springtime Seminar.

                        Directly under this picture is a "Spiritual Tip" titled Holy Ground.
                        The thing is that the quote (taken from the Mahanta Transcripts,
                        Book 16) contradicts the view that the Eck Temple, Chapel, ESC, is
                        Holy Ground! Therefore, why is it necessary for Eckists to make a
                        pilgrimage to Chanhassen, MN?

                        The quote points out that wherever the individual Soul
                        walks is Holy Ground and that everything is between God and Soul.
                        There is no need for a Mahanta or for Eck Masters. "Soul is the
                        center of the universe..." However, Klemp does use a "BUT" and
                        an "IF" which makes me wonder if he is being truthful.

                        HK: "BUT wherever you are is holy IF you recognize at any given
                        moment that you are in the precence of God."

                        Of course, another problem we have is with the use of the
                        word "God." Every true Eckist knows that "God" is really the Kal and
                        is Not the same as SUGMAD. This is just "common language" used to
                        make the public feel comfortable, as well as, to trick them
                        (temporarily) until they become more trusting (open) and are able to
                        handle "higher truths" via the Mahanta's guidance. LOL!

                        Klemp states that: "Sometimes we get things backward: we feel that
                        we have to go to a holy place and only there are we in the presence
                        of God. Sometimes it's a holy mountain, or a holy building."

                        So, you see - it's very interesting that this is stated directly
                        under the picture of the Eck Chapel, Temple patio, and the "Holy"
                        grounds. Perhaps this is Golden-Tongued Wisdom for all Eckists and a
                        clue for them to spend their hard earned money elsewhere instead of
                        traveling to Minneapolis for pilgrimages to the Temple and the "Holy
                        Grounds" of Chanhassen.

                        Prometheus
                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello All, I just thought I d bring this current article back to the front page for anyone (especially Eckists) to read this weekend. I ll be posting Klemp s
                        Message 11 of 11 , Aug 19, 2006
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                          Hello All,
                          I just thought I'd bring this current article back to the front page
                          for anyone (especially Eckists) to read this weekend. I'll be
                          posting Klemp's 09/2006 Wisdom Notes soon. I'll look forward to
                          reading comments on HK's distorted 20/20 hindsight view of history.

                          ********************************************************************

                          Hi Ingrid and All,
                          I'll add my comments to Klemp's "expert" opinions on the dreams
                          described in his article. Really though, Klemp's opinions are no
                          better than anyone's, especially, that of the actual dreamer! And,
                          these insights and opinions may, in many cases, have more to do
                          with "us" than the original dreamer. Spirit works in mysterious ways
                          and Klemp is usually oblivious to this, as well as, his ever growing
                          Karmic debt!


                          "Oh, You've Come So Far!" by Harold Klemp

                          HK: "The host of a call-in radio program calls himself an expert on
                          dreams. He is a psychiatrist. Callers' questions about a strange
                          or haunting dream are grain for his mill. Most dreams are easy fixes
                          for him. They express some unconscious wish or feeling of the
                          dreamer."

                          [Me]
                          ### Actually, the dreams of Eckists that are sent via Initiate
                          Reports, etc. are also "grain" for Klemp's "mill" and are "easy
                          fixes" for HK too. Klemp even uses them to "write" book upon book!
                          How proud these Eckists are that get their dreams printed
                          (mentioned)! However, this is just more vanity accruing for these
                          proud Eckists and their wealthy puffed-up "International Who's Who
                          of Intellectuals Ninth Edition" Mahanta! LOL!

                          [Ingrid]
                          *** Well, most of the dreams *are* that, are they not?!

                          ### Yes, many dreams do express "unconscious wishes or feelings."
                          However, I also see Klemp putting down the talk show host for being
                          a psychiatrist. Perhaps HK still has some unresolved anger of that
                          1970 visit he had when he was locked up in a Mental Instituition!
                          Remember, Klemp claims he had learned "to play the game" in order to
                          be released after three weeks!

                          HK: "For me, the most interesting part of the program is the
                          questions. The host's answers often hit a wall, though, or dribble
                          off into a self-satisfying string of mumbo jumbo. The show
                          conveniently airs before bedtime. The few times I braved a segment
                          of it, it put me in a mood to sleep."

                          *** HK can't withstand the temptation to put others down, can he? Is
                          it True, Necessary, Kind and Loving?!

                          ### Klemp's comments of this talk show host are getting rather nasty
                          and personal it seems (more flash-backs). This reminds me of his
                          nasty comments in the 09/2003 H.I. Letter towards that Third
                          Temporary Postal Clerk (Fill-in) when H.K. defended Joan for her
                          violating the Law of Economy (Not showing her I.D. before the clerk
                          looked for her package), having too much pride of her position at
                          the ESC, and for her impatience.

                          HK: "Recently, a caller told of a dream that baffled this dream
                          expert. The expert, an authority, would not--could not--admit that
                          it mystified him too, that it was beyond his area of expertise. Most
                          of you would have immediately known this dream for what it was. It
                          was a vivid past-life experience."

                          *** How does HK know that it mystified the host of the show?! So HK,
                          the expert on all dreams, knows immediately that it was a vivid past-
                          life experience. Well, I think this is known among dream experts as
                          well! "Normal" human beings do believe in reincarnation, too!

                          ### Doesn't Klemp also claim to be an "expert" and an "authority"
                          and much much more! How arrogant! Klemp is too clueless to
                          be "mystified" of anything he's a know-it-all in his (and Eckists')
                          own delusional mind(s)!

                          HK: "This dream had recurred many times over the last Twenty Years
                          and was notable in that it always replayed battle scenes of the
                          American Civil War of the 1860s. And the dreamer always floated
                          above them. He could describe the uniforms, the cannons, the horses
                          and their riders, the weather, the soldiers' guns, the officers'
                          swords, and the like. He saw the wounded and the dead. And he could
                          even smell the smoke of cannon fire." [My caps]

                          *** Well, there it is again - HK's favorite topic - wars! It always
                          comes down to that it seems to me! He seems to love it! :-))

                          ### Yes, and HK never takes a position or to comment how futile it
                          all is, or why can't we all just get along, or the "whys" of why we
                          can't! This would be a good time to go more indepth and present the
                          higher truths that Soul is seeking. Klemp is message is boring and
                          redundant and never benefits the advanced Soul. And, aren't Eckists
                          supposed to be "advanced" Souls? Where's the Spiritual Meat?!

                          HK: "Evidently, dreams of past lives are not in the expert's
                          repertoire of explanations. Yet he let on that the matter was very
                          clear to him. By some leap of logic I didn't follow, he tied the
                          dream to the caller's childhood on his grandfather's farm. Forget
                          about the caller's you-are-there descriptions of another time and
                          place. To the expert it was all just a subconscious expression of
                          his feelings."

                          *** I can imagine that you couldn't follow this "leap of logic", HK!
                          And subconscious isn't allowed in eckankar! So just forget it, it's
                          a big no-no! That's why so many eckists are controlled by their
                          subconscious because HK always appeals to that, seemingly without
                          knowing it! LOL!

                          ### I agree Ingrid, why can't the LEM/Mahanta follow the "leap in
                          logic?" Maybe Klemp is in denial of some childhood events that
                          occurred back on his parent's farm that he refuses to face! Klemp
                          does seem to hang onto anger and dwells in and recreates past events
                          to suit his scamming agenda and false image.


                          HK: "Other questions were brushed aside with wordy tut-tuts. This
                          exchange must have left the dreamer as puzzled as ever, driving him
                          on to seek more satisfying answers from some other source."

                          *** Well, one must be aware that seeking advice in a radio show
                          isn't the best way to get answers to one's questions! I would go to
                          see some kind of counselor, specialized on dreams perhaps!

                          ### Klemp needs to look into a mirror more often. HK is an expert at
                          saying nothing while putting down others. Have Eckists ever read
                          his "loser" comments. Do Klemp's words depict a "Loving" master or
                          another Jerry Falwell?

                          HK: "The greatest favor we can do for ourselves is to say we don't
                          know when we don't know."

                          *** So HK, you don't know a lot - did you ever say so?!

                          ### Well HK did say that he couldn't follow the psychiatrist's "Leap
                          of Logic," however, HK was either Not being honest (unless is is
                          that stupid), or he was being sarcastic (negative).

                          HK: "Vast are the worlds of ECK. The experiences we can have within
                          them are more than there are stars in the heavens. Odds are strong--
                          overwhelming--that you will often run into things you could never
                          have imagined."

                          *** Yes HK that happens! What counts is our response to those
                          unimagined things! Well, Joan couldn't adapt too well to this
                          temporary postal clerk, could she! LOL!

                          ### Yep, that poor postal clerk! What negativity he had to fend off!
                          It's a good thing that 9th Initiate Joan and 14th Initiate Harry
                          aren't as powerful as they delude themselves to be! Of course, I'm
                          just kidding about that. JK and HK know that it's all a scam. The
                          Eckists are the only ones that are deluded!

                          HK: "This physical life has plenty of surprises too. IF your
                          spiritual unfoldment is on track, you will many times find yourself
                          saying about an experience or condition, 'I just don't know.'"

                          *** "Normal" humble people say that very often, too! It's because
                          life is wonderful and really full of surprises which makes life here
                          so great, at least for me! :-)

                          ### It's true that sometimes we can't see what is happening or the
                          reasons for it because we either don't look hard enough (aren't
                          interested), we are being spared the pain of knowing the outcome
                          before events play out, because we sometimes just need to learn by
                          repetition, and we see and experience things according to what we
                          need (for spiritual growth) and can handle.

                          HK: "BUT there are also many things you will know. And it's because
                          the Mahanta will show you." [My caps]

                          *** No, thanks - no need of a mahanta! :-)

                          ### Notice that Klemp is still using BUT and IF in his articles to
                          Eckists when he stated in the 12/2005 H.I. Letter Not to or avoid
                          using these words with other Eckists. Eckists shouldn't trust that
                          Klemp is truthful about anything he says!

                          [Second dream comments]

                          HK: "For example, what do you think the dream authority would have
                          made of this dream reported by someone we will call Belle? In the
                          dream state she was visiting friends, sitting in a large,
                          overstuffed chair. They had a huge pet lizard colored like a Gila
                          monster, a large, poisonous reptile found in Arizona, where she was
                          born and briefly lived later."

                          ### What makes Klemp an authority? He was initiated by a Thief who
                          was also a Black Magician (Gross) who was in turn initiated by the
                          Eck Board of Trustees and Officers on Gail's Twitchell's behalf.
                          And, the whole Eckankar scam was created by a Liar - Paul Twitchell.
                          And, Rebazar was created by Twit so it isn't R.T. who "Fills-in" as
                          needed either! This is just more myth. Ask Doug Marman!

                          HK: "However, Belle found this pet lizard loving and sweet. She was
                          not afraid of it. It crawled over her shoulder, down her arm, and
                          into her lap. Then it crept up her front and licked her face. The
                          alarm clock rang. Since it was an odd dream, she made a note
                          of it in her dream journal."

                          ### Perhaps this has more to do with Belle overcoming fear!

                          HK: "What do you think the dream expert's analysis would have
                          sounded like?"

                          ### I guess we're about to hear what the other "expert" (HK) is
                          about to say. However, you know what they say about opinions don't
                          you? They are like ass holes - everyone has one!

                          HK: "Well, he never would get a chance to air it, because at
                          breakfast that very morning, the Mahanta, the Inner Master, gave
                          Belle its meaning. And it rang so true."

                          ### I'm curious as to why HK listens to this Radio Show before he
                          goes to sleep. Why does the so-called LEM/Mahanta do this? Is this
                          the only way he is able to dream? Sad state of affairs for Eckists!

                          HK: "She was at the table eating breakfast, reading the latest issue
                          of Arizona Highways. Her attention was captured by a photo of a Gila
                          monster. Alongside it was an article on how medical scientists had
                          discovered that its saliva contained a substance to help balance
                          insulin levels in type 2 diabetes. There is also a new medication
                          on the market made of a synthesized version of this substance."

                          ### I'll bet that this magazine cover was seen by her prior to her
                          dream and that her unconscious mind dreamed about it. Maybe it did
                          have to do with her sugar intake or Not! Like I previously stated,
                          maybe the dream had more to do with her facing hers fears. Or, Klemp
                          is just flexing his knowledge and Who's Who intellect! LOL!

                          HK: "This was a health warning from the Master. Belle is not a
                          diabetic, BUT for a full week, she had been craving sweet things.
                          The warning said, 'You're taking in too much sugar." So she said
                          good-bye to the ice cream and cookies." [My caps]

                          *** Well I'm sure she would have thought about this without the
                          mahanta as well because her own Higher Self, which HK tries to
                          invade and take over, would have guided her there! And much better
                          than HK, the mahanta, the intruder, ever could!

                          ### Very true! Klemp is very good at putting words and opinions in
                          the mouth of others. This person (Soul) will figure it out without
                          being misdirected by a pseudo expert and master.

                          HK: "Here, then, you've met two very differnt dreamers, with two
                          very different dream advisers. The Mahanta's advice is worlds beyond
                          that of this other self-described expert. So very, very far beyond
                          his.

                          *** The master of the universe is the greatest expert of course! And
                          why can't he speak through the radio show host for example? There's
                          something called golden tongued wisdom in eckankar, and the eck
                          should be able to speak through anyone, not only HK!

                          ### Klemp makes it sound like he is the only "expert" who knows
                          anything about past lives. LOL! Many thousands of people outside of
                          Eckankar know much more about this topic than Klemp claims to know
                          or will ever know! And, Klemp's very nasty, once again, when he
                          attempts to belittle this psychiatrist by calling him a "self-
                          described expert!" What does Klemp think he is? LOL! Again, I really
                          believe that Klemp is still holding onto anger from his
                          incarceration in a Mental Institution. IMO- HK is transferring this
                          unresolved anger to all psychiatrists and other mental health
                          practitioners.

                          HK: "Look back sometime and see how far you've come in ECK. And it's
                          all because of your love for the Master."

                          *** Yeah look back on how much money you have already spent to this
                          silly organization to have the protection of the so-called master!
                          This protection isn't worth a dime! Just rely on you own inner and
                          Higher Self who doesn't need your money to make a good living out of
                          it, on your expense!

                          ### True, Ingrid, money and time was wasted on a scam that created
                          more and more distortions of the real Truth we were seeking. The
                          harm in Eckankar is that the seeker must adopt delusion or become
                          more delusional in order to fit-in and have Eckie "experiences."
                          Eckankar encourages dependency and attachment to a LEM/Mahanta and
                          increases one's vanity via higher initiations. Eckists, does this
                          sound like it could be another Kal trap like other religions - nah!
                          That's just your imagination or is it?

                          Prometheus
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