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Re: From A.R.E. - Change yourself and move ahead

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi All, It s pitiful that Garland still doesn t get it! Therefore, I ll make some comments to help enlighten him, and also comment some on Tianyue s
    Message 1 of 3 , Jun 9 11:06 AM
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      Hi All,
      It's pitiful that Garland still doesn't "get it!" Therefore, I'll
      make some comments to help "enlighten" him, and also comment some on
      Tianyue's observations.

      Prometheus


      ctecvie wrote:

      Hi all,

      this is a very good response by Tianyue to G. Peck's notorious
      talkdowns :-). Enjoy!

      Ingrid


      *********************************************************************

      Re: Change Yourself And Move Ahead
      by "tianyue" <tianyue@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > May 23, 2006 at 07:30 PM


      Garland C. Peck wrote:

      [GP] Taking into consideration all the topics and discussions that
      one can get into, one fact remains. ..... You must do it for
      yourself !

      Karma, often being an overused excuse and blanket statement to cover
      every condition. Instead of looking bad by openly stating, I have no
      Idea what's going on it's easier to blame karma. For those who have
      accepted the concepts of reincarnation, karma is unfinished business
      brought along from a past life and perhaps some of what we face is
      due to past transgressions. Clearly to some extent we are
      responsible for the life we have created for ourselves from past
      behavior.


      ***[Me] True, however, as a former H.I. you should have a broader
      knowledge of the various "types" of karma (including daily karma).
      Self-responsibility has always been a factor, except, to the
      ignorant masses and unenlightened followers of many religions.


      [GP] What about the greed and weakness that we are facing in this
      life. How easily we blindly turn our lives over to another, and then
      cry that they took advantage .... Of course they took advantage,
      "you allowed them to." People are on a pedestal because you put them
      there. Has anyone since leaving Eckankar, honestly taken a look at
      themselves and asked what about me made this possible ..... and
      what do I have to change to prevent it from happening again.


      ***[Me] So, why do you, Garland, place yourself on a pedestal? Is
      this because you were an H.I. and, therefore, you believe the lies
      still and think you are more spiritually advanced? It seems that you
      dislike the Eckankar criticism because it negates your "High"
      opinion of yourself (i.e. higher initiations).

      *** Also, one purpose of this ESA site is to get people to take a
      long hard look at "WHY" we joined Eckankar and were tricked! There
      is introspection taking place! Also, we want to bring these points
      out to share with others - including current Eckists!

      *** You seem to take a very selfish view of this process. It seems,
      for you, everyone is on their own to figure it all out whenever or
      if ever! We have more empathy than you, or as I said - maybe you
      just don't want us negating your lofty former status!


      [GP] The emotional, mental and physical states that allowed so many
      to fall into a trap have remained unchanged and thus it can be
      guaranteed that it will happen again. The weakness, misunderstanding
      and lack of self responsibility will demand a repetition of the
      experience. Is anyone saying, since Eckankar I've strengthen my
      views on self-reliance or is everyone still blaming Harold Klemp. Is
      anyone saying since leaving Eckankar I've learned to better manage
      my money or is everyone still blaming Harold Klemp for taking from
      them in the past. Is anyone saying since leaving Eckankar I've
      learned to correct an emotional need for approval and can now stand
      on my own or is everyone still blaming Harold Klemp for misguiding
      them.


      ***[Me] I get the impression that you, Garland, would walk on by
      someone needing your help while thinking - "Well, that's their
      karma - they should have been more responsible with their health or
      money." Actually, that's exactly what you are doing when you support
      Eckankar by criticizing ESA's purpose of informing others about the
      e-cult!

      *** Actually, Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp do have a lot to answer
      for and do need to be blamed. Klemp, also, needs to accept
      responsibility, but that won't happen - therfore, we will point out
      the lies so that others will not be harmed. This is our
      responsibility as Soul. Would you, knowingly, allow someone to do
      something that could harm them? It seems you would - you don't care!
      That's their tough luck or karma - right? That's the difference
      between you and us (ESA).



      [GP] Has anyone having left Eckankar have truly taken the time to
      look at "themselves" and ask what about me made this possible.


      ***[Me] Of course! We are still exploring the details and
      intricities of this in order to go beyond the "knowing" to a state
      of "understanding" which delves into Self.


      [GP] Nothing can or will change unless people are willing to start
      with themselves, with their own limitations. Life is not about
      Eckankar it's about yourself and what you choose to do with what you
      have. Correct your own weaknesses, face your own misconceptions and
      take the necessary step to improve yourselves. What ever condition
      at the time that made Eckankar part of your life will of itself
      create a similar condition .... only you can change this.


      ***[Me] You're preaching to the choir! However, we cannot
      remain "self-ish" in this regard. Life (consciousness) does not
      really occur in linear time. It just seems to be linear. Actually
      everything is occuring simultaneously. Therefore, we can multi-task
      and work on Self "while" helping others to be informed about the
      Eckankar scam.


      [GP] No one is going to live your life for you, but they surely will
      take advantage of it if you given the conditions to do so.

      Change your life conditions and move ahead OR leave them as they are
      and stay where you.


      ***[Me] I guess that you simply don't get it. We have moved ahead!
      Life is much more different and better than when we belonged to the
      cult and were suckered by the scam. Case closed on that! However,
      you seem to under the delusion that if one talks about or discusses
      a past situation that they haven't moved on. ESA is an information
      site. Have you ever studied history? Or, should we just close our
      eyes to the past and move on? Do you see how really stupid that
      position is!

      *** However, yes people do need to move on, and sometimes they think
      they have when they haven't! Get it!?

      *********************************************************************

      Tianyue wrote:

      Most, if not all the people I know who have left Eckankar have asked
      themselves what made them susceptible to becoming fooled by Eckankar
      and Paul Twitchell. What on earth ever made you think former members
      don't contemplate such issues? From my conversations with many of
      such people, I'd say it is possibly the first thought that occurs to
      them after they realize they've been duped. I've not met one who
      doesn't take personal responsibility for falling into the trap. Your
      assumption is a sweeping generalization about former members. How
      many former members do you personally know well? I know several, and
      not one of them fits the description you give.

      Most former members are very empowered from the experience, from what
      I've seen. Most are not likely to make the same error of being too
      trusting again. Most have learned enormously from the experience, and
      are much more savy and wise about spirituality than they were before.

      But taking responsibility doesn't mean the responsiblity is absolute,
      as if all responsibility were limited to just former members. While
      there is often some responsibility for things that happen on both
      sides of any issue, the responsiblity is not always equally
      distributed, by any means.

      For example, it could be said that the employees of Enron who lost
      their pensions should have been wiser, perhaps, in their trust of the
      corporation they worked for, and should have negotiated for better
      safeguards of their futures. They could have put the funds in a trust
      that was offlimits to corporate officials and bankruptcy laws. But
      they trusted, and now they are penniless. Does this excuse Enron
      officials from wrongdoing?


      ***[Me] These employees also trusted that their government (the law
      makers) would protect them from unfairness. Everyone makes
      assumptions in life - daily! Don't we also assume that people will
      stop for red lights! Eckists "assume" the best even the
      contradictions say otherwise - such as: typical lower, negative
      behavior by long-time H.I.s who are supposed to be spiritually
      advanced.


      It would be ridiculous to blame the employees for the mess, even if
      they might have been better negotiators with union contracts and
      agreements. This is why the Enron execs are being prosecuted. To
      suggest blaming the employees would be absurd. Even if the notion
      they could have looked out for themselves a little better is somehow
      remotely true, no one has been so callous as to blame them. Would you
      say it was all their fault and accuse them of being too trusting?
      Would you not hold the execs accountable?


      ***[Me] Actually these employees, especially, at the lower end of
      the union hierarchy have little to no power just as in Eckankar.
      Contracts are negotiated behind closed doors by a committee of
      higher-ups in the union. Everything has to be approved by the head
      of the union before the members can vote. However, only the
      employees have the risks. The higher-ups in the union will still
      have their jobs, and even bonuses too, regardless of contracts or
      strikes! They are trapped between Union and Management. The non-
      union employees, except for executives, have even more to lose.



      Also, taking personal responsibility may include the responsibility
      to voice opinions that might be of use to others. For example, the
      Enron employees could set up a foundation to advise others of ways
      to protect themselves from corporate theft. Of course, those who
      defend eckankar would like this sort of civic responsibility to be
      forgotten, and they clamor for silence from those who have awakened
      from the delusion of eckankar's antics. This is, ironically, asking
      the former members to shirk the responsibility of expressing to the
      community what they have discovered. Thus, it is clear that
      responsibility is being defined rather selectively by those who
      accuse eckankar critics of lacking responsibility.


      ***[Me] Yes, the employees could do something to inform others and
      to help make it better for future generations. This is taking a
      Higher Responsibility. Changes have to take place through action.
      Just look at the "history" of the United States alone! However,
      there will always be "side-line quarterbacks" criticizing the
      actions of others. Some even state that "knowledge protects."
      Except, they never bother to take knowledge to the next level
      of "understanding" what is true.


      Think about this, Garland: Eckankar filed a lawsuit against David
      Lane to seek legal protection from Lane's actions. This is the
      ultimate legal recourse for a victim: To appeal to the justice
      system for justice. So, it is clear eckankar officials saw eckankar
      as a victim in need of legal protection from the courts. Otherwise,
      why seek help from courts?


      ***[Me] There will be Higher Courts to judge Klemp and Company. We
      are the reporters and gathers of information, as well as, those who
      help to give balance and perspective to the one-sided negativity and
      PR of the Eckankar Cult.


      It seems there is some hypocrisy underlying the notion that eckankar
      former members don't accept responsibility in having been duped, even
      as eckankar is seen as a victim by its own officials. Why didn't the
      eckankar officials just let karma take care of things? Wasn't it
      eckankar's karma to have Lane write his book? After all, we're
      talking about self responsibility, aren't we? Does eckankar and its
      leaders accept responsibility for their actions, or not? Do they
      accept that what happens to eckankar is eckankar's responsibility?


      ***[Me] The "hypocrisy" of some former members is actually a
      continued delusion that still affects them. They cannot see the
      forrest due to the trees!

      Interesting...the way these things get so twisted in peoples minds.

      ***[Me] So very true!

      Tianyue
    • mishmisha9
      Hi, Ingrid! Thanks for reposting G. Peck s critical analysis of other former eckists. It seems that Garland is clueless while thinking he knows more than
      Message 2 of 3 , Jun 11 3:05 PM
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        Hi, Ingrid!

        Thanks for reposting G. Peck's critical analysis of other former
        eckists. It seems that Garland is clueless while thinking he knows
        more than others.

        What I'd like to know is why in the hECK is pECK defending ECK? I
        couldn't help noticing the "eck" in Peck! I would imagine that has
        grabbed Peck for a long time! lol?

        It seems that pECK should do what he is preaching to other ex-
        eckists--he should change himself and move ahead. For beginners, I
        suggest that he come down off the lofty pedestal he has climbed up
        on, and act like a normal human being, instead of remaining the
        arrogant pretenser he displays to those he likes to judge with
        criticisms! Maybe he needs to establish his own following so he can
        feel better about himself. He seems to be begging for personal
        attention . . . or maybe he just needs a life! : )


        Tianyue's response to Peck on A.R.E. is excellent, but it seems that
        Peck has not bothered to consider these remarks. Prometheus does a
        good job here as well. The way G. Peck continues to repeat his
        message over and over, I have come to believe that he speaks but
        doesn't listen to anyone but himself. I bet he doesn't even bother
        to read what others reply to him as it is obvious his mind is
        snapped shut (closed) to other's ideas. And that is why he is the
        one stuck and will remain stuck, perhaps until the end of all time!

        Mish


        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
        <ctecvie@...> wrote:

        Hi all,

        this is a very good response by Tianyue to G. Peck's notorious
        talkdowns :-). Enjoy!

        Ingrid
        >

        *********************************************************************

        Re: Change Yourself And Move Ahead
        by "tianyue" <tianyue@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > May 23, 2006 at 07:30 PM


        Garland C. Peck wrote:
        Taking into consideration all the topics and discussions that
        one can get into, one fact remains. ..... You must do it for
        yourself !

        Karma, often being an overused excuse and blanket statement to
        cover every condition. Instead of looking bad by openly stating, I
        have no Idea what's going on it's easier to blame karma. For those
        who have accepted the concepts of reincarnation, karma is unfinished
        business brought along from a past life and perhaps some of what we
        face is due to past transgressions. Clearly to some extent we are
        responsible for the life we have created for ourselves from past
        behavior.

        What about the greed and weakness that we are facing in this
        life. How easily we blindly turn our lives over to another, and
        then cry that they took advantage .... Of course they took
        advantage, " you allowed them to. "People are on a pedestal because
        you put them there. Has anyone since leaving Eckankar, honestly
        taken a look at themselves and asked what about me made this
        possible ..... and what do I have to change to prevent it from
        happening again.

        The emotional, mental and physical states that allowed so many
        to fall into a trap have remained unchanged and thus it can be
        guaranteed that it will happen again. The weakness, misunderstanding
        and lack of self responsibility will demand a repetition of the
        experience. Is anyone saying, since Eckankar I've strengthen my
        views on self-reliance or is everyone still blaming Harold Klemp. Is
        anyone saying since leaving Eckankar I've learned to better manage
        my money or is everyone still blaming Harold Klemp for taking from
        them in the past. Is anyone saying since leaving Eckankar I've
        learned to correct an emotional need for approval and can now stand
        on my own or is everyone still blaming Harold Klemp for misguiding
        them.

        Has anyone having left Eckankar have truly taken the time to
        look at "themselves " and ask what about me made this possible.
        Nothing can or will change unless people are willing to start with
        themselves, with their own limitations. Life is not about Eckankar
        it's about yourself and what you choose to do with what you have.

        Correct your own weaknesses, face your own misconceptions and take
        the necessary step to improve yourselves. What ever condition at the
        time that made Eckankar part of your life will of itself create a
        similar condition .... only you can change this.

        No one is going to live your life for you, but they surely will take
        advantage of it if you given the conditions to do so.

        Change your life conditions and move ahead OR leave them as they are
        and stay where you.


        Tianyue replied this way to Garland:
        Most, if not all the people I know who have left Eckankar have
        asked themselves what made them susceptible to becoming fooled by
        Eckankar and Paul Twitchell. What on earth ever made you think
        former members don't contemplate such issues? From my conversations
        with many of such people, I'd say it is possibly the first thought
        that occurs to them after they realize they've been duped. I've not
        met one who doesn't take personal responsibility for falling into
        the trap. Your assumption is a sweeping generalization about former
        members. How many former members do you personally know well? I know
        several, and not one of them fits the description you give.

        Most former members are very empowered from the experience, from
        what I've seen. Most are not likely to make the same error of being
        too trusting again. Most have learned enormously from the
        experience, and are much more savy and wise about spirituality than
        they were before.

        But taking responsibility doesn't mean the responsiblity is
        absolute, as if all responsibility were limited to just former
        members. While there is often some responsibility for things that
        happen on both sides of any issue, the responsiblity is not always
        equally distributed, by any means.

        For example, it could be said that the employees of Enron who lost
        their pensions should have been wiser, perhaps, in their trust of
        the corporation they worked for, and should have negotiated for
        better safeguards of their futures. They could have put the funds in
        a trust that was offlimits to corporate officials and bankruptcy
        laws. But they trusted, and now they are penniless. Does this excuse
        Enron officials from wrongdoing?

        It would be ridiculous to blame the employees for the mess, even if
        they might have been better negotiators with union contracts and
        agreements. This is why the Enron execs are being prosecuted. To
        suggest blaming the employees would be absurd. Even if the notion
        they could have looked out for themselves a little better is somehow
        remotely true, no one has been so callous as to blame them. Would
        you say it was all their fault and accuse them of being too
        trusting? Would you not hold the execs accountable?

        Also, taking personal responsibility may include the
        responsibility to voice opinions that might be of use to others. For
        example, the Enron employees could set up a foundation to advise
        others of ways to protect themselves from corporate theft. Of
        course, those who defend eckankar would like this sort of civic
        responsibility to be forgotten, and they clamor for silence from
        those who have awakened from the delusion of eckankar's antics. This
        is, ironically, asking the former members to shirk the
        responsibility of expressing to the community what they have
        discovered. Thus, it is clear that responsibility is being defined
        rather selectively by those who accuse eckankar critics of lacking
        responsibility.

        Think about this, Garland: Eckankar filed a lawsuit against David
        Lane to seek legal protection from Lane's actions. This is the
        ultimate legal recourse for a victim: To appeal to the justice
        system for justice. So, it is clear eckankar officials saw eckankar
        as a victim in need of legal protection from the courts. Otherwise,
        why seek help from courts?

        It seems there is some hypocrisy underlying the notion that
        eckankar former members don't accept responsibility in having been
        duped, even as eckankar is seen as a victim by its own officials.
        Why didn't the eckankar officials just let karma take care of
        things? Wasn't it eckankar's karma to have Lane write his book?
        After all, we're talking about self responsibility, aren't we? Does
        eckankar and its leaders accept responsibility for their actions, or
        not? Do they accept that what happens to eckankar is eckankar's
        responsibility?

        Interesting...the way these things get so twisted in peoples minds.

        Tianyue
        >
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