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Re: The Sufi Initiations & Hierarchies

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  • Freefrom
    Me too! I found all the links really interesting. And I thought I knew so much. I know practically nothing! I even went further and looked at the sites on
    Message 1 of 5 , May 22 12:13 AM
      Me too! I found all the links really interesting. And I thought I knew
      so much. I know practically nothing! I even went further and looked at
      the sites on Islam. Those Iranians who have an interest in eckankar
      are really at a disadvantage. They may not have as much access to
      finding out the reality of the scam as we do. I have known several
      Iranians in the past, a long time ago, and they were really nice
      people. I wonder if eckankar has ever been wire tapped without a
      warrent yet? In a way, eckankult is really just another dictatorship
      religion. If eckankar was a country, it would be a Theocracy with a
      caste system of initiates higher and lower, controlling everyone like
      the Taliban. How scarey is that?! Klemp is Allah? Allah Hu Akbar. How
      weird is that? Allah Hu Klemp. Well I guess I'd better stop, 'cause
      I'm starting to freak myself out! lol Klemp should just come clean and
      transform eckankar into a cult awareness organization, using
      themselves as an example of how out of wak things can get from
      delusional attempts to keep a scam alive.

      Actually, I do feel sorry for what is happening in the Middle East. I
      really feel bad for the children. I heard an interview on the radio
      about a Native American Tribe, that their major decisions were made
      based on the projected affect it would have on the seventh or tenth
      generation in the future. As a result, no one seems to have a problem
      with affording health care, etc.. Why doesn't eckankar teach more
      about empathy? Empathy involves having feelings.

      Best Wishes!


      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      > Hi Kaye and Liz,
      > Thanks for the information on the Sufis. I used to do some "Sufi"
      > dancing at a local Unity Church a long long time ago while in
      > Southern California. It was fun!
      > Anyway, one can see that Eckankar is just a collection information
      > that is Not necessarily all that spiritual or even "high" and that
      > it is mostly other people's (O.P.) ideas and philosophies. The
      > substance of anything remotely profound becomes too simplified and
      > even profane when Klemp reinvents it as "truth" via the Mahanta
      > consciousness. LOL!
      > The definitions for these Sufi stages of mastership or initiation
      > are very interesting and shows very clearly where The Mahanta falls
      > short. Eckists should rethink the path of religion they have chosen,
      > but I agree with Kaye that I don't believe in initiation either.
      > These are all the man-made ways of religion to control others or for
      > the ego to stand on a pedestal to look down upon others. However,
      > these 7 degrees (without the dogma) could be used as personal
      > measuring sticks for the individual Soul. Actually, any and all
      > spiritual growth can be done without religion and intermediators.
      > I found -
      > http://wahiduddin.net/index.html
      > to be an interesting site and saw where there were 99 names for
      > Allah, BUT didn't see the Mahanta listed!? Moslems should write to
      > Klemp at the ESC and ask him about his Eckankar LexiCon definition
      > for Allah where he mentions that this is the Mahanta Consciousness.
      > I'm thinking of addressing this same topic on another site. Klemp
      > has a lot to answer for and it's still ongoing!
      > Prometheus
      > eyesopen wrote:
      > Happy TGIF everyone!
      > I've been re-reading your posts about ekult's theory of the spiritual
      > hierarchy, initiations and the lem - co-lem posibilites. Which
      > brought to mind a conversation I had with a Mahdis when I was a
      > fresh newbie.
      > Were any of you told that the Sufi religion most resembled the "most
      > high" eck teachings? I looked at some of the Sufi sites and found an
      > article that talked about the Sufi Spiritual Hierarchy and I don't
      > see any similarity. Please note the last paragraph, as this makes far
      > more sense to me than anything I've read about the godman, mahanta,
      > lem / co-lem and the endless initiations as taught by HK and ekult.
      > Here's the link if you want to read the article in its'
      > entirety:
      > http://wahiduddin.net/mv2/IX/IX_12.htm - 21k
      > <snip>
      > According to the Sufi conception there are seven degrees in the
      > spiritual hierarchy, which can be distinguished as different stages
      > of responsiveness, in other words of higher initiation. They are:
      > Pir, Buzurg, Wali, Ghauth, Qutb, Nabi, Rasul. These are the degrees
      > belonging to the inner initiation to which a disciple becomes
      > entitled after receiving the necessary outer initiations. It is
      > beyond words to express what inner initiation means and in what from
      > it is given. Those to whom the inner initiation is unknown may
      > explain it as a dream or as a vision, but in reality it is something
      > higher and greater than that. I can only explain it by saying that
      > the definite changes which take place during one's journey on the
      > spiritual path are initiations, and it is these initiations which
      > include man in the spiritual hierarchy.
      > People call them masters, but in reality they are pupils; for in
      > point of fact no one in the world as a master save God. Man's
      > privilege is to become a greater pupil. Therefore none of the great
      > ones have called themselves masters, nor have they considered
      > themselves to be so. What they have known in their lives is the
      > privilege of opening their hearts wider and wider to reflect the
      > light of the Master who is God Himself. The progress of these high
      > initiates is according to their responsiveness, for they have never
      > connected themselves with what they have expressed.
      > Very often parents say something to their child in which there is the
      > voice of God. Very often a kind friend suggests something to his
      > friends, out of his love and sympathy, which happens to be a message
      > of God. Sometimes a teacher says an inspiring word, which is like a
      > word coming direct from God. Even from an innocent child a word may
      > come as a warning from God; for all faces are His faces, and from all
      > lips it is His word that comes, whenever it comes, but those who
      > respond to Him become as His appointed servants. People call them
      > Chosen Ones; but in reality God has chosen all, for all souls are
      > near to the Creator. But the soul who is attached to the lips of God
      > like a trumpet becomes the herald of His message, and what comes
      > through his lips is not his own words, but the message of God.
      > In the life of a saint or master five degrees can be recognized, the
      > progress of the saint and of the master being silent in the last two
      > degrees; but in the life of a prophet all seven degrees are
      > manifested to view. A saint or a master has one facility. He can do
      > his work avoiding the notice of the world. But the life of the
      > prophet compels him to go into the world, and thus, as he progresses
      > from grade to grade through his life, he cannot hide himself,
      > however much he may want to, from the gaze of the world. However,
      > the sage of every category and degree, be he a saint, master or
      > prophet, always prefers to remain unknown to the world; and as he
      > progresses that desire increases. It is not only out of modesty or
      > humbleness, but also for the protection of the spiritual ideal,
      > which has developed in him, for it attracts dangers of all sorts
      > when it is exposed to the common gaze. All beauty is veiled by
      > nature and the higher the beauty, the more it is concealed. This
      > makes it easy for a wise man to find out the difference between a
      > true prophet and a false prophet, for one beats his drums and the
      > other tries to keep in the background. If only his work in the world
      > would let him remain there! But his efforts to accomplish something
      > bring him to the notice of the world. However, his longing is to be
      > unknown, for the only one who really deserves to be known is God.
      > The work of the Pir is helping individuals toward the unfoldment of
      > their soul, and that of the Buzurg is to help by the power of his
      > soul those who wish to advance spiritually.
      > Wali is the initiate whose will has come close to the divine will,
      > and he shows it in the harmony which reigns in his own life, not
      > only with his friends, but he will also be in harmony with an
      > adversary. He shows harmony with the changing weather and its
      > different influences, and he is in harmony with all that he eats and
      > drinks. He is in harmony with the place he lives and moves about in,
      > and he harmonizes with all atmospheres. And so his will becomes the
      > will of God; in other words, the will of God becomes his will. He
      > may control a community, keeping it on the right track, but he
      > mostly does the work for which he is appointed in an unobtrusive
      > way. The greater a person is in spiritual advancement, the less
      > assuming he becomes, and the more he avoids every show of piety or
      > spirituality.
      > Ghauth is the next grade of the initiates. The influence of the
      > Ghauth is wider. He gives up his personality wholly to the divine
      > guidance, and wherever this Ghauth may be there will be an
      > atmosphere of protection from all kinds of dangers such as floods,
      > storms, plagues, or famines. He promotes the spiritual well being of
      > a community.
      > Qutb is the third degree of a master, a still higher grade, when his
      > mind becomes focused on the divine mind, and he has, to a lesser or
      > greater extent, power over all elements, as well as influence upon
      > life. Under him there is a dominion in which he is responsible for
      > the order and peace of souls. He governs a country or nation
      > spiritually.
      > Nabi is the apostle, called in Sanskrit Bodhisattva, whose spirit
      > reflects the Spirit of Guidance. His work is mainly the giving of the
      > message in the form of warning, awakening, preaching, teaching, and
      > inspiring those to whom he may be sent. He comes into the lives of
      > those who are meant to be guided along the spiritual path. He is sent
      > to nations when they are meant to change their conditions. He is sent
      > to a community or race to give warnings. He is meant to be a reformer
      > at the times when a reformer is needed. He elevates individuals and
      > bears a divine message.
      > Rasul is the world-messenger, who comes for all people at the time of
      > the world's need, and brings with him that inspiration, influence,
      > and power which will harmonize humanity. He may be a king or a
      > pauper; in whatever condition he comes, he will fulfill the purpose
      > of his coming to earth. Answering the cry of humanity, he fulfills
      > the purpose of his mission. The sign of Rasul is the crescent, which
      > represents a responsive heart.
      > No man in the world has the power to give these higher initiations.
      > They are given by God himself, and the initiates prove their
      > initiations not in their claims, but in their works. The soul rises
      > to that stage where manhood ends and godhead begins, enters the
      > initiation of the spiritual hierarchy, and then he is neither man nor
      > God. He is not God, because he is limited man; and he is not man,
      > because he is God-conscious.
      > checked 18-Oct-2005
      > *********************************************************************
      > Imagine that - no mention of anyone being a loser or being condemned
      > to astral hell. ; ) - no one but GOD can give an initiation (not that
      > I believe in the theory of initiations anyway).
      > I have some other issues with HK and ekult's lies that I'll try to
      > post later.
      > Have Fun!
      > Kaye
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