Re: The Sufi Initiations & Hierarchies
- Me too! I found all the links really interesting. And I thought I knew
so much. I know practically nothing! I even went further and looked at
the sites on Islam. Those Iranians who have an interest in eckankar
are really at a disadvantage. They may not have as much access to
finding out the reality of the scam as we do. I have known several
Iranians in the past, a long time ago, and they were really nice
people. I wonder if eckankar has ever been wire tapped without a
warrent yet? In a way, eckankult is really just another dictatorship
religion. If eckankar was a country, it would be a Theocracy with a
caste system of initiates higher and lower, controlling everyone like
the Taliban. How scarey is that?! Klemp is Allah? Allah Hu Akbar. How
weird is that? Allah Hu Klemp. Well I guess I'd better stop, 'cause
I'm starting to freak myself out! lol Klemp should just come clean and
transform eckankar into a cult awareness organization, using
themselves as an example of how out of wak things can get from
delusional attempts to keep a scam alive.
Actually, I do feel sorry for what is happening in the Middle East. I
really feel bad for the children. I heard an interview on the radio
about a Native American Tribe, that their major decisions were made
based on the projected affect it would have on the seventh or tenth
generation in the future. As a result, no one seems to have a problem
with affording health care, etc.. Why doesn't eckankar teach more
about empathy? Empathy involves having feelings.
--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
> Hi Kaye and Liz,
> Thanks for the information on the Sufis. I used to do some "Sufi"
> dancing at a local Unity Church a long long time ago while in
> Southern California. It was fun!
> Anyway, one can see that Eckankar is just a collection information
> that is Not necessarily all that spiritual or even "high" and that
> it is mostly other people's (O.P.) ideas and philosophies. The
> substance of anything remotely profound becomes too simplified and
> even profane when Klemp reinvents it as "truth" via the Mahanta
> consciousness. LOL!
> The definitions for these Sufi stages of mastership or initiation
> are very interesting and shows very clearly where The Mahanta falls
> short. Eckists should rethink the path of religion they have chosen,
> but I agree with Kaye that I don't believe in initiation either.
> These are all the man-made ways of religion to control others or for
> the ego to stand on a pedestal to look down upon others. However,
> these 7 degrees (without the dogma) could be used as personal
> measuring sticks for the individual Soul. Actually, any and all
> spiritual growth can be done without religion and intermediators.
> I found -
> to be an interesting site and saw where there were 99 names for
> Allah, BUT didn't see the Mahanta listed!? Moslems should write to
> Klemp at the ESC and ask him about his Eckankar LexiCon definition
> for Allah where he mentions that this is the Mahanta Consciousness.
> I'm thinking of addressing this same topic on another site. Klemp
> has a lot to answer for and it's still ongoing!
> eyesopen wrote:
> Happy TGIF everyone!
> I've been re-reading your posts about ekult's theory of the spiritual
> hierarchy, initiations and the lem - co-lem posibilites. Which
> brought to mind a conversation I had with a Mahdis when I was a
> fresh newbie.
> Were any of you told that the Sufi religion most resembled the "most
> high" eck teachings? I looked at some of the Sufi sites and found an
> article that talked about the Sufi Spiritual Hierarchy and I don't
> see any similarity. Please note the last paragraph, as this makes far
> more sense to me than anything I've read about the godman, mahanta,
> lem / co-lem and the endless initiations as taught by HK and ekult.
> Here's the link if you want to read the article in its'
> http://wahiduddin.net/mv2/IX/IX_12.htm - 21k
> According to the Sufi conception there are seven degrees in the
> spiritual hierarchy, which can be distinguished as different stages
> of responsiveness, in other words of higher initiation. They are:
> Pir, Buzurg, Wali, Ghauth, Qutb, Nabi, Rasul. These are the degrees
> belonging to the inner initiation to which a disciple becomes
> entitled after receiving the necessary outer initiations. It is
> beyond words to express what inner initiation means and in what from
> it is given. Those to whom the inner initiation is unknown may
> explain it as a dream or as a vision, but in reality it is something
> higher and greater than that. I can only explain it by saying that
> the definite changes which take place during one's journey on the
> spiritual path are initiations, and it is these initiations which
> include man in the spiritual hierarchy.
> People call them masters, but in reality they are pupils; for in
> point of fact no one in the world as a master save God. Man's
> privilege is to become a greater pupil. Therefore none of the great
> ones have called themselves masters, nor have they considered
> themselves to be so. What they have known in their lives is the
> privilege of opening their hearts wider and wider to reflect the
> light of the Master who is God Himself. The progress of these high
> initiates is according to their responsiveness, for they have never
> connected themselves with what they have expressed.
> Very often parents say something to their child in which there is the
> voice of God. Very often a kind friend suggests something to his
> friends, out of his love and sympathy, which happens to be a message
> of God. Sometimes a teacher says an inspiring word, which is like a
> word coming direct from God. Even from an innocent child a word may
> come as a warning from God; for all faces are His faces, and from all
> lips it is His word that comes, whenever it comes, but those who
> respond to Him become as His appointed servants. People call them
> Chosen Ones; but in reality God has chosen all, for all souls are
> near to the Creator. But the soul who is attached to the lips of God
> like a trumpet becomes the herald of His message, and what comes
> through his lips is not his own words, but the message of God.
> In the life of a saint or master five degrees can be recognized, the
> progress of the saint and of the master being silent in the last two
> degrees; but in the life of a prophet all seven degrees are
> manifested to view. A saint or a master has one facility. He can do
> his work avoiding the notice of the world. But the life of the
> prophet compels him to go into the world, and thus, as he progresses
> from grade to grade through his life, he cannot hide himself,
> however much he may want to, from the gaze of the world. However,
> the sage of every category and degree, be he a saint, master or
> prophet, always prefers to remain unknown to the world; and as he
> progresses that desire increases. It is not only out of modesty or
> humbleness, but also for the protection of the spiritual ideal,
> which has developed in him, for it attracts dangers of all sorts
> when it is exposed to the common gaze. All beauty is veiled by
> nature and the higher the beauty, the more it is concealed. This
> makes it easy for a wise man to find out the difference between a
> true prophet and a false prophet, for one beats his drums and the
> other tries to keep in the background. If only his work in the world
> would let him remain there! But his efforts to accomplish something
> bring him to the notice of the world. However, his longing is to be
> unknown, for the only one who really deserves to be known is God.
> The work of the Pir is helping individuals toward the unfoldment of
> their soul, and that of the Buzurg is to help by the power of his
> soul those who wish to advance spiritually.
> Wali is the initiate whose will has come close to the divine will,
> and he shows it in the harmony which reigns in his own life, not
> only with his friends, but he will also be in harmony with an
> adversary. He shows harmony with the changing weather and its
> different influences, and he is in harmony with all that he eats and
> drinks. He is in harmony with the place he lives and moves about in,
> and he harmonizes with all atmospheres. And so his will becomes the
> will of God; in other words, the will of God becomes his will. He
> may control a community, keeping it on the right track, but he
> mostly does the work for which he is appointed in an unobtrusive
> way. The greater a person is in spiritual advancement, the less
> assuming he becomes, and the more he avoids every show of piety or
> Ghauth is the next grade of the initiates. The influence of the
> Ghauth is wider. He gives up his personality wholly to the divine
> guidance, and wherever this Ghauth may be there will be an
> atmosphere of protection from all kinds of dangers such as floods,
> storms, plagues, or famines. He promotes the spiritual well being of
> a community.
> Qutb is the third degree of a master, a still higher grade, when his
> mind becomes focused on the divine mind, and he has, to a lesser or
> greater extent, power over all elements, as well as influence upon
> life. Under him there is a dominion in which he is responsible for
> the order and peace of souls. He governs a country or nation
> Nabi is the apostle, called in Sanskrit Bodhisattva, whose spirit
> reflects the Spirit of Guidance. His work is mainly the giving of the
> message in the form of warning, awakening, preaching, teaching, and
> inspiring those to whom he may be sent. He comes into the lives of
> those who are meant to be guided along the spiritual path. He is sent
> to nations when they are meant to change their conditions. He is sent
> to a community or race to give warnings. He is meant to be a reformer
> at the times when a reformer is needed. He elevates individuals and
> bears a divine message.
> Rasul is the world-messenger, who comes for all people at the time of
> the world's need, and brings with him that inspiration, influence,
> and power which will harmonize humanity. He may be a king or a
> pauper; in whatever condition he comes, he will fulfill the purpose
> of his coming to earth. Answering the cry of humanity, he fulfills
> the purpose of his mission. The sign of Rasul is the crescent, which
> represents a responsive heart.
> No man in the world has the power to give these higher initiations.
> They are given by God himself, and the initiates prove their
> initiations not in their claims, but in their works. The soul rises
> to that stage where manhood ends and godhead begins, enters the
> initiation of the spiritual hierarchy, and then he is neither man nor
> God. He is not God, because he is limited man; and he is not man,
> because he is God-conscious.
> checked 18-Oct-2005
> Imagine that - no mention of anyone being a loser or being condemned
> to astral hell. ; ) - no one but GOD can give an initiation (not that
> I believe in the theory of initiations anyway).
> I have some other issues with HK and ekult's lies that I'll try to
> post later.
> Have Fun!