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Eckankar's "Spiritual Hierarchy " - P.T.'s version vs H.K.'s

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, I thought that I would revisit this subject from a different perspective. Comparing the differences, and similarities, between these two spiritual
    Message 1 of 3 , May 6 12:54 PM
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      Hello All,
      I thought that I would revisit this subject from a different
      perspective. Comparing the differences, and similarities, between
      these two "spiritual hierarchy" definitions is one more example for
      Eckists, especially, to see "why" the basic Eck dogma seems so
      confusing and doesn't always make sense. The fact is that
      information was copied and altered by Twitchell (and not well at
      times) from other sources and the source of these other sources
      were, by far, Not the highest! Klemp then copied and altered
      (changed, added, deleted) from Twitchell! However, many other cons
      and scams (political, religious, business, personal), throughout
      history, have been created in the same way!

      "SPIRITUAL HIERARCHY" Definition:

      Eckankar Dictionary by P.T. Eckankar Lexicon by H.K.

      SUGMAD Sugmad

      ECK ECK

      Mahanta Mahanta

      *Living ECK Masters Living ECK Master

      Adepts of the Order Adepts of the Order
      of the Vairagi of the Vairagi

      Lords of each plane Lords of each plane
      within the higher worlds within the higher worlds

      guardians of the guardians of the
      Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad

      *Atma, Soul

      Kal Niranjan, Lord Kal Niranjan, Lord
      of the negative worlds, of the negative worlds
      formed to flow the Kal force

      Lords of Karma Lords of Karma

      devas (angels) devas (angels)

      planetary spirits planetary spirits

      bruts (sic) bhuts

      elementals elementals

      man man

      *fish *fish

      animals animals

      reptiles reptiles

      plants plants

      *stones *stones

      Well, there are some differences and both versions have overlooked
      the NINE SILENT ONES! Oops!

      Also, I know that the "Lords of the higher worlds" were mentioned,
      however, SAT NAM should have been mentioned since he was "the first
      manifestation of God" and "Lord of all above and below" (pg. 183
      Eckankar Lexicon). Twitchell mentions, in the Eckankar Dictionary on
      page 127, that SAT NAM is also "the power, the light, the great
      Master flowing down and out from all creation, to create, govern and
      sustain all regions, like a gigantic stream of water." Sooooo, why
      was SAT NAM Not listed? These Mahanta's just can't patch up all the
      holes in the big lie!

      Look at how far down the "guardians of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad" are
      listed! Rami Nuri, a former LEM/Mahanta, and "guardian" of the
      Shatiyat-Ki-Sugmad on Venus (LOL!) is lower in the Spiritual
      Hierarchy than the Vairagi Adepts (Kata Daki and other 'just men')
      and the "Lords" of the higher world planes!

      Here's another observation. Isn't it interesting that Twitchell
      mentions "Atma, Soul" and Klemp doesn't! What happened Harry? How'd
      you miss that one! Yikes!

      Oh, did you notice that Twitchell had "Living ECK Masters" (plural)
      and Klemp had just the one. Is Klemp saying that there really are NO
      former Living ECK Masters and Mahantas still living in a physical
      body!

      Those Vairagi Adepts are very high up in Eckankar's spiritual
      hierarchy and yet how is it that they are identified with gender?
      Hmmmmm?

      Devas and angels don't look like they are very high up there! How is
      it that angels are higher than man or is this a "Soul" factor that
      Klemp omitted? Doesn't the Christian Bible state than man is higher
      than angels? Hasn't Klemp said that some Eck Masters appear as or
      are angels? Maybe Zsa Zsa (ZZ) was an Eck Master too! <smile>

      Here's another one! Why are "fish" listed, in Eckankar's Spiritual
      Hierarchy by both Twitchell and Klemp, above "animals!" And, a
      dolphin is Not a fish! [However, according to the "Hitchhiker's
      Guide to the Galaxy" the order is mice, dolphins, man.] LOL! Really,
      what's wrong with Twich's thinking?! Klemp was just "playing his
      game" of - follow the leader!

      Okay, here's the last one. Why are "stones" listed instead of
      minerals?! How large is a stone? How about rocks and pebbles...
      does "dust" count? I guess it doesn't really matter because if
      Eckists are willing to believe these highly flawed definitions (by
      two Mahantas) for Eckankar's "Spiritual Hierarchy" they'll believe
      anything! LOL!

      Prometheus
    • mishmisha9
      Hello, All! I m reposting this one with my reply at the bottom! ... wrote: Hello All, I thought that I would revisit this subject from a
      Message 2 of 3 , May 15 11:19 AM
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        Hello, All!

        I'm reposting this one with my reply at the bottom!

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

        Hello All,
        I thought that I would revisit this subject from a different
        perspective. Comparing the differences, and similarities, between
        these two "spiritual hierarchy" definitions is one more example for
        Eckists, especially, to see "why" the basic Eck dogma seems so
        confusing and doesn't always make sense. The fact is that
        information was copied and altered by Twitchell (and not well at
        times) from other sources and the source of these other sources
        were, by far, Not the highest! Klemp then copied and altered
        (changed, added, deleted) from Twitchell! However, many other cons
        and scams (political, religious, business, personal), throughout
        history, have been created in the same way!

        "SPIRITUAL HIERARCHY" Definition:

        Eckankar Dictionary by P.T. Eckankar Lexicon by H.K.

        SUGMAD Sugmad

        ECK ECK

        Mahanta Mahanta

        *Living ECK Masters Living ECK Master

        Adepts of the Order Adepts of the Order
        of the Vairagi of the Vairagi

        Lords of each plane Lords of each plane
        within the higher worlds within the higher worlds

        guardians of the guardians of the
        Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad

        *Atma, Soul

        Kal Niranjan, Lord Kal Niranjan, Lord
        of the negative worlds, of the negative worlds
        formed to flow the Kal force

        Lords of Karma Lords of Karma

        devas (angels) devas (angels)

        planetary spirits planetary spirits

        bruts (sic) bhuts

        elementals elementals

        man man

        *fish *fish

        animals animals

        reptiles reptiles

        plants plants

        *stones *stones

        Well, there are some differences and both versions have overlooked
        the NINE SILENT ONES! Oops!

        Also, I know that the "Lords of the higher worlds" were mentioned,
        however, SAT NAM should have been mentioned since he was "the first
        manifestation of God" and "Lord of all above and below" (pg. 183
        Eckankar Lexicon). Twitchell mentions, in the Eckankar Dictionary on
        page 127, that SAT NAM is also "the power, the light, the great
        Master flowing down and out from all creation, to create, govern and
        sustain all regions, like a gigantic stream of water." Sooooo, why
        was SAT NAM Not listed? These Mahanta's just can't patch up all the
        holes in the big lie!

        Look at how far down the "guardians of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad" are
        listed! Rami Nuri, a former LEM/Mahanta, and "guardian" of the
        Shatiyat-Ki-Sugmad on Venus (LOL!) is lower in the Spiritual
        Hierarchy than the Vairagi Adepts (Kata Daki and other 'just men')
        and the "Lords" of the higher world planes!

        Here's another observation. Isn't it interesting that Twitchell
        mentions "Atma, Soul" and Klemp doesn't! What happened Harry? How'd
        you miss that one! Yikes!

        Oh, did you notice that Twitchell had "Living ECK Masters" (plural)
        and Klemp had just the one. Is Klemp saying that there really are NO
        former Living ECK Masters and Mahantas still living in a physical
        body!

        Those Vairagi Adepts are very high up in Eckankar's spiritual
        hierarchy and yet how is it that they are identified with gender?
        Hmmmmm?

        Devas and angels don't look like they are very high up there! How is
        it that angels are higher than man or is this a "Soul" factor that
        Klemp omitted? Doesn't the Christian Bible state than man is higher
        than angels? Hasn't Klemp said that some Eck Masters appear as or
        are angels? Maybe Zsa Zsa (ZZ) was an Eck Master too! <smile>

        Here's another one! Why are "fish" listed, in Eckankar's Spiritual
        Hierarchy by both Twitchell and Klemp, above "animals!" And, a
        dolphin is Not a fish! [However, according to the "Hitchhiker's
        Guide to the Galaxy" the order is mice, dolphins, man.] LOL! Really,
        what's wrong with Twich's thinking?! Klemp was just "playing his
        game" of - follow the leader!

        Okay, here's the last one. Why are "stones" listed instead of
        minerals?! How large is a stone? How about rocks and pebbles...
        does "dust" count? I guess it doesn't really matter because if
        Eckists are willing to believe these highly flawed definitions (by
        two Mahantas) for Eckankar's "Spiritual Hierarchy" they'll believe
        anything! LOL!

        Prometheus
        >

        ##############################################################

        Mish:

        I thought I would pull this post up on the "Spiritual Hierarchy." I
        intended to reply to it before now but have been very busy with a
        lot of other things! : )

        It is interesting that fish are placed above animals on the
        hierarchy. It doesn't make sense since animals are more highly
        evolved in that they give live birth to their young rather than
        laying eggs and they also nurse (feed mother's milk) to their young
        as well. It means a closer interaction (bonding with) and training
        of their young. I guess these eck masters went to a different school
        to be so sloppy with this! My son, the budding scientist at age
        three, knew better! LOL!

        Perhaps, this hierarchy is set up with such flaws so that a real
        thinker will pass it by, and those chelas who are less
        observant and more gullible will be the main attractors to the
        teachings??? : )

        Regarding devas (angels), Klemp wrote the following in "Those
        Wonderful ECK Masters," pages 30-31:

        "Guardian Angels

        The guardian angels we hear of in the media are often ECK Masters.
        The ECK Masters are guardian angels. However, not all guardian
        angels are ECK Masters, and there's a real difference.
        A guardian angel's main role is to protect people. Such a guardian
        picks a person and stays with him, to provide help with whatever
        powers lie in that guardian's keeping. But different angels have
        different levels of ability. Look at students in a classroom: they
        are not equal and alike in their abilities. The same is true of
        angels."

        Klemp didn't seem to explain this very well. The reader is certainly
        left wondering how to distinguish a guardian angel who also happens
        to be an ECK Master from just an ordinary guardian angel. Just what
        is the difference beyond hinting at levels of abilities. In other
        words, it would be nice if Klemp could be more precise in what he is
        attempting to state. I suppose he just wants to leave a large gap so
        that once again eckankar can pick and choose at what the teachings
        will claim responsibilty for--just which guardian angel stories will
        work best for them without causing a big debate from other
        individuals and sources. The fantasies and fabrications are created
        and tweaked daily! LOL!

        Mish
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Mish, You make a good point about the flaws in the Eck dogma regarding the spiritual hierarchy. If someone was to read this nonsense and still buy into it
        Message 3 of 3 , May 16 9:39 AM
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          Hi Mish,
          You make a good point about the flaws in the Eck dogma regarding
          the "spiritual hierarchy." If someone was to read this nonsense and
          still buy into it then they are just what Klemp needs as a member of
          his cult/scam. However, most Eckists buy into the dogma before
          reading or noticing some of these other things/flaws.

          Also, (when an Eckist) I always rationalized it away by being told
          that it was all a Kal test. It was either the Kal or the Eck
          (take your pick) testing us. If one stayed in Eck and just accepted
          Eckankar with all the flaws then one passed the test. If we were
          still troubled by it all then we needed to take it to the inner for
          answers. Or, overlook the flaws because of the other positive
          benefits and experiences that we imagined through our expectations
          and assumptions. Delusional people believe that life "down here" is
          Not perfect and, therefore, even written "Eck" materials cannot be
          perfect either. So, there are plenty of excuses for Eckists to
          overlook the scam.

          In regard to angels - Yes, it seems Klemp leaves Eckists to fill-in
          the blanks... to use their imaginations and make up whatever causes
          them to feel good about Eckankar (their security blanket). It's
          funny that Klemp would always mention to look for "details" in one's
          dream travels and then leaves out "details" when talking about
          angels. It's that 'do as I say, not as I do' thing again. Another
          Catch-22! Actually, what should one expect from a pseudo-master who
          is just acting "as if" he knows something! I'm thinking he's still
          in that ESC Soundproof Darkroom from 1980!

          Prometheus


          mishmisha wrote:
          ##############################################################

          Mish:

          I thought I would pull this post up on the "Spiritual Hierarchy." I
          intended to reply to it before now but have been very busy with a
          lot of other things! : )

          It is interesting that fish are placed above animals on the
          hierarchy. It doesn't make sense since animals are more highly
          evolved in that they give live birth to their young rather than
          laying eggs and they also nurse (feed mother's milk) to their young
          as well. It means a closer interaction (bonding with) and training
          of their young. I guess these eck masters went to a different school
          to be so sloppy with this! My son, the budding scientist at age
          three, knew better! LOL!


          *******************************************************************
          Perhaps, this hierarchy is set up with such flaws so that a real
          thinker will pass it by, and those chelas who are less
          observant and more gullible will be the main attractors to the
          teachings??? : )
          *******************************************************************



          Regarding devas (angels), Klemp wrote the following in "Those
          Wonderful ECK Masters," pages 30-31:

          "Guardian Angels

          The guardian angels we hear of in the media are often ECK Masters.
          The ECK Masters are guardian angels. However, not all guardian
          angels are ECK Masters, and there's a real difference. A guardian
          angel's main role is to protect people. Such a guardian picks a
          person and stays with him, to provide help with whatever powers lie
          in that guardian's keeping. But different angels have different
          levels of ability. Look at students in a classroom: they are not
          equal and alike in their abilities. The same is true of angels."

          Klemp didn't seem to explain this very well. The reader is certainly
          left wondering how to distinguish a guardian angel who also happens
          to be an ECK Master from just an ordinary guardian angel. Just what
          is the difference beyond hinting at levels of abilities. In other
          words, it would be nice if Klemp could be more precise in what he is
          attempting to state. I suppose he just wants to leave a large gap so
          that once again eckankar can pick and choose at what the teachings
          will claim responsibilty for--just which guardian angel stories will
          work best for them without causing a big debate from other
          individuals and sources. The fantasies and fabrications are created
          and tweaked daily! LOL!

          Mish
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