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Re: True, Necessary, Kind? RePost from Truth Seeker

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  • eyesopen444
    Hi everyone, I read this great post on the Truth Seeker site and wanted to share it with you. Have Fun. Kaye Journey 4/25/2006 The eck Quote by Buddha: True,
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 27, 2006
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      Hi everyone,

      I read this great post on the Truth Seeker site and wanted to share
      it with you.

      Have Fun.

      Kaye

      Journey
      4/25/2006

      The eck Quote by Buddha: " True, Necessary, Kind"

      Hello, Priscus!

      Thank you for asking where I found the quote by Buddha. I read it on
      page 349, in Julian Johnson's book, published 1939, "The Path of the
      Masters." Julian Johnson wrote: "A rule laid down by the noble
      Buddha is a most excellent one for all men to follow. He (Buddha)
      said that if you propose to speak, always ask yourself—`is it true,
      is it necessary, is it kind?'" I used the quote, attributing it to
      Buddha, thinking that Harald might respond somewhat as you have. It
      is an often used quote by Eckists, and even the eck singing
      vahanas, "The Hindu Kush Mountain Boys Plus One," wrote a song based
      on it in the mid 80's and made the quote more popular and attributed
      to Eckankar. I did enjoy hearing this group perform on more than one
      occasion. I agree that it is a fine quote; however, it has been over-
      used in Eckankar when enforcing the Law of Silence, so it is an eck
      suppression tool. It's interesting, that at one time, JPT once spoke
      of this as being the "art of silence." You may recall that Usually
      Skeptical (Nacal) showed how Klemp did not follow this rule himself
      in regards to the Postal Worker story. I have been reading Klemp's
      latest book, "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," and have noted that
      Klemp is now calling some chelas "losers," (found on page 211) so
      again it appears that Klemp continues to not apply this rule to
      himself.

      In "Confessions of a God Seeker," Ford explains how Twitchell
      plagiarized from "The Path of the Masters," so it is rather evident
      that this quote is still another example of something that Twitchell
      plagiarized from other sources in creating Eckankar. In moving away
      from the eck experience, it does help to sort out what you found
      valuable and be able to learn that those "truths" originated else
      where, and you can then believe that you might very well have found
      them yourself in other sources which attribute them rightfully to
      their originator. It is my conclusion, and a helpful one for me, to
      realize that it is not necessary to credit and thank Eckankar for
      spiritual growth, even though I had an experience there. Eckankar is
      not a necessary stepping stone on the spiritual path.

      To Patmc: I will mention again the yahoo group, Eckankar Survivors
      Anonymous. Usually Skeptical (Nacal), now using the pseudo
      Prometheus on that group, along with others are keeping current with
      the latest eck shenanigans—the Mystic World, Youth Letter of Light,
      HK's talks and latest writings, etc. The posts are open to the
      public for reading, both current and archived messages. One does not
      have to join to access the posts, and a non member can post and/or
      ask questions; however, non member posters are moderated which seems
      fair enough. Also, the yahoo group Spiritual Survivor is moderated
      by Ed Kusi. It is a private site that is delving into some
      interesting spiritual discussions. To access the posts there, one
      must sign on as a member.

      Here's the links:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spiritualsurvivor
      Also, there are some groups in German:

      A newsgroup for Ex-Eckists and critical Eckists in German
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Eck-ist-ECK

      German copy of ESA: EckankarFragenAnonym (EFA)
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarFragenAnonym

      Critical Eckankar info in German-contains German translation of
      David Lane
      http://www.eckist.info

      It isn't necessary to always agree with all views, but along with
      participating on TS/HCS, a Truth Seeker can find a variety of
      information and ideas that help a former Eckist to understand more
      fully his/her eck experience. It is good to have a variety of
      resources in order to maintain balance and more easily find answers
      to questions and concerns.

      Best Wishes,
      Journey
    • prometheus_973
      Hi All, The search for Truth or All That Is (God) is the most elusive and difficult journey or quest that any of us can make. It seems that there are always
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 29, 2006
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        Hi All,
        The search for Truth or All That Is (God) is the most elusive and
        difficult journey or quest that any of us can make. It seems that
        there are always compromises that one makes in order to justify
        present circumstances and past decisions. We tend to look for
        comfortable and convienient solutions in all aspects of our lives.

        When I was an Eckist this phrase (or concept) was interesting to
        ponder: 'Is it true, Is it necessary, Is it kind? These three things
        I ask myself before I speak my mind.' It almost seemed that
        communication or conversation would be greatly impeded and limited
        if one followed this concept in it's highest form. Of course, it
        would help if one were a recluse, lived in a cave, or took a vow of
        silence to follow this advice in it's purest form. However, to
        follow this affirmation/mantra in it's purest idealic form is really
        impractical.

        For instance: What is really "true?" What is "true" for you
        versus "true" for me? What is "true" for others? Okay, all of us
        being Soul is true, but how about our journey in this life - our
        tests and lessons? And, what is "necessary" or needed at any given
        moment for any given situation or person? What, therefore, is "kind"
        for any given situation, topic, or person? Life is full of variables
        and is seldom just black or white, negative or positive, true or
        false - there are inbetweens that gradually lead up to the next
        level of lessons!

        When Eckankar and any group, organization, government, or religion,
        that is based upon lies and distortions of Truth, begin to talk
        about higher or the highest of ideals then it is just manipulating
        for the sake of public impression. The ideal concept or idea, and
        what's holy, now becomes a method to silence, eliminate, distort,
        and distract from the true motives, purpose, and existence of the
        business/government/religion! Yes, they take something that is holy
        for Soul and secretly use it to increase their own power and
        revenues.

        Therefore, Is it true, necessary, or kind? It all depends!

        Yes, it is True that Eckankar is a scam that was created by
        Twitchell. And it is True that the Eck initiations and the Eck
        masters are phoney! Is it True that Eckankar has helped people? Yes!
        It has helped me to see how lies and distortions can become "real"
        when we want and need them to be true, and it has also helped me to
        develop greater insights of Self-Mastery by seeing that I Am my own
        Living Master!

        Is it Necessary that I share my experiences and opinions of the
        con/scam of Eckankar. Yes, at this time it is! Why not?! It's fun!
        And, maybe it will help Eckists, and others, to see and understand
        why their gut feelings are telling them that something is wrong with
        Klemp - being any outer or inner master!

        So, is what I say about HK, etc. kind? I'm much kinder than I could
        be! I could say some really really nasty things, but that would be
        unnecessary and angry - it would be more harmful to me than to HK or
        to Eckankar. Actually, I'm being kind to HK and to present day
        Eckists. I'm pointing out the flaws in the beliefs that are keeping
        them in delusion. For Klemp it is a conscious choice to continue
        living the lie for not only himself, BUT for others! This is one of
        the highest crimes that any Soul could do to another Soul traveling
        the path to God - to intentionally mislead others for one's own
        benefit. Klemp has a lot to answer for, and needs to make amends, or
        start to, A.S.A.P.!

        Anyway, there you have it - my take on: Is it true, necessary, kind.

        Prometheus



        eyesopen wrote:

        Hi everyone,

        I read this great post on the Truth Seeker site and wanted to share
        it with you.

        Have Fun.

        Kaye

        Journey
        4/25/2006

        The eck Quote by Buddha: " True, Necessary, Kind"

        Hello, Priscus!

        Thank you for asking where I found the quote by Buddha. I read it on
        page 349, in Julian Johnson's book, published 1939, "The Path of the
        Masters." Julian Johnson wrote: "A rule laid down by the noble
        Buddha is a most excellent one for all men to follow. He (Buddha)
        said that if you propose to speak, always ask yourself—`is it true,
        is it necessary, is it kind?'" I used the quote, attributing it to
        Buddha, thinking that Harald might respond somewhat as you have. It
        is an often used quote by Eckists, and even the eck singing
        vahanas, "The Hindu Kush Mountain Boys Plus One," wrote a song based
        on it in the mid 80's and made the quote more popular and attributed
        to Eckankar. I did enjoy hearing this group perform on more than one
        occasion. I agree that it is a fine quote; however, it has been over-
        used in Eckankar when enforcing the Law of Silence, so it is an eck
        suppression tool. It's interesting, that at one time, JPT once spoke
        of this as being the "art of silence." You may recall that Usually
        Skeptical (Nacal) showed how Klemp did not follow this rule himself
        in regards to the Postal Worker story. I have been reading Klemp's
        latest book, "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," and have noted that
        Klemp is now calling some chelas "losers," (found on page 211) so
        again it appears that Klemp continues to not apply this rule to
        himself.

        In "Confessions of a God Seeker," Ford explains how Twitchell
        plagiarized from "The Path of the Masters," so it is rather evident
        that this quote is still another example of something that Twitchell
        plagiarized from other sources in creating Eckankar. In moving away
        from the eck experience, it does help to sort out what you found
        valuable and be able to learn that those "truths" originated else
        where, and you can then believe that you might very well have found
        them yourself in other sources which attribute them rightfully to
        their originator. It is my conclusion, and a helpful one for me, to
        realize that it is not necessary to credit and thank Eckankar for
        spiritual growth, even though I had an experience there. Eckankar is
        not a necessary stepping stone on the spiritual path.

        To Patmc: I will mention again the yahoo group, Eckankar Survivors
        Anonymous. Usually Skeptical (Nacal), now using the pseudo
        Prometheus on that group, along with others are keeping current with
        the latest eck shenanigans—the Mystic World, Youth Letter of Light,
        HK's talks and latest writings, etc. The posts are open to the
        public for reading, both current and archived messages. One does not
        have to join to access the posts, and a non member can post and/or
        ask questions; however, non member posters are moderated which seems
        fair enough. Also, the yahoo group Spiritual Survivor is moderated
        by Ed Kusi. It is a private site that is delving into some
        interesting spiritual discussions. To access the posts there, one
        must sign on as a member.

        Here's the links:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spiritualsurvivor
        Also, there are some groups in German:

        A newsgroup for Ex-Eckists and critical Eckists in German
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Eck-ist-ECK

        German copy of ESA: EckankarFragenAnonym (EFA)
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarFragenAnonym

        Critical Eckankar info in German-contains German translation of
        David Lane
        http://www.eckist.info

        It isn't necessary to always agree with all views, but along with
        participating on TS/HCS, a Truth Seeker can find a variety of
        information and ideas that help a former Eckist to understand more
        fully his/her eck experience. It is good to have a variety of
        resources in order to maintain balance and more easily find answers
        to questions and concerns.

        Best Wishes,
        Journey
      • Freefrom
        Yes, interesting discussion, that truth may not seem kind at the time, but it is necessary to know. For many eckists, the bliss of ignorance is their truth;
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 29, 2006
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          Yes, interesting discussion, that truth may not seem kind at the time,
          but it is necessary to know. For many eckists, the "bliss" of
          ignorance is their truth; Truth may have something else to say about
          it. At sometime, Truth just slaps you in the face, depending on the
          level of denial involved, IMHO. I believe we all function with some
          denial that is normal. ANd then there is even denial of Truth that is
          really Beautiful, as strange as that may be. Whether I am really my
          own LIving Master even, I am not sure I really know what this means. I
          can be my own person, in the sense of self-actualizing, and still not
          necessarily be like the Master of the Universe or even my own domain.
          I'm not sure that I or anyone really creates their own universe down
          to every detail by merely controlling and focusing on certain specific
          thoughts. If this were true, then our experiences would be much more
          profound in the physical as far as psychokinesis and other "parnormal"
          stuff, in fact we wouldn't even call it paranormal.

          The power of speech is pretty amazing when you think about it, but for
          humans it is pretty normal. It would be very paranormal for cows. My
          cat tries to talk to me believe it or not, with all kinds of
          inflection and body language. But I have had other cats and dogs that
          didn't really do that Lassie thing so much. Anyway, there are a lot of
          amazing things that we as humans can do, just not sure creating my own
          universe down to the finest detail as a Master is necessarily one of
          those amazing features.

          Best Wishes

          Freefrom ; )

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi All,
          > The search for Truth or All That Is (God) is the most elusive and
          > difficult journey or quest that any of us can make. It seems that
          > there are always compromises that one makes in order to justify
          > present circumstances and past decisions. We tend to look for
          > comfortable and convienient solutions in all aspects of our lives.
          >
          > When I was an Eckist this phrase (or concept) was interesting to
          > ponder: 'Is it true, Is it necessary, Is it kind? These three things
          > I ask myself before I speak my mind.' It almost seemed that
          > communication or conversation would be greatly impeded and limited
          > if one followed this concept in it's highest form. Of course, it
          > would help if one were a recluse, lived in a cave, or took a vow of
          > silence to follow this advice in it's purest form. However, to
          > follow this affirmation/mantra in it's purest idealic form is really
          > impractical.
          >
          > For instance: What is really "true?" What is "true" for you
          > versus "true" for me? What is "true" for others? Okay, all of us
          > being Soul is true, but how about our journey in this life - our
          > tests and lessons? And, what is "necessary" or needed at any given
          > moment for any given situation or person? What, therefore, is "kind"
          > for any given situation, topic, or person? Life is full of variables
          > and is seldom just black or white, negative or positive, true or
          > false - there are inbetweens that gradually lead up to the next
          > level of lessons!
          >
          > When Eckankar and any group, organization, government, or religion,
          > that is based upon lies and distortions of Truth, begin to talk
          > about higher or the highest of ideals then it is just manipulating
          > for the sake of public impression. The ideal concept or idea, and
          > what's holy, now becomes a method to silence, eliminate, distort,
          > and distract from the true motives, purpose, and existence of the
          > business/government/religion! Yes, they take something that is holy
          > for Soul and secretly use it to increase their own power and
          > revenues.
          >
          > Therefore, Is it true, necessary, or kind? It all depends!
          >
          > Yes, it is True that Eckankar is a scam that was created by
          > Twitchell. And it is True that the Eck initiations and the Eck
          > masters are phoney! Is it True that Eckankar has helped people? Yes!
          > It has helped me to see how lies and distortions can become "real"
          > when we want and need them to be true, and it has also helped me to
          > develop greater insights of Self-Mastery by seeing that I Am my own
          > Living Master!
          >
          > Is it Necessary that I share my experiences and opinions of the
          > con/scam of Eckankar. Yes, at this time it is! Why not?! It's fun!
          > And, maybe it will help Eckists, and others, to see and understand
          > why their gut feelings are telling them that something is wrong with
          > Klemp - being any outer or inner master!
          >
          > So, is what I say about HK, etc. kind? I'm much kinder than I could
          > be! I could say some really really nasty things, but that would be
          > unnecessary and angry - it would be more harmful to me than to HK or
          > to Eckankar. Actually, I'm being kind to HK and to present day
          > Eckists. I'm pointing out the flaws in the beliefs that are keeping
          > them in delusion. For Klemp it is a conscious choice to continue
          > living the lie for not only himself, BUT for others! This is one of
          > the highest crimes that any Soul could do to another Soul traveling
          > the path to God - to intentionally mislead others for one's own
          > benefit. Klemp has a lot to answer for, and needs to make amends, or
          > start to, A.S.A.P.!
          >
          > Anyway, there you have it - my take on: Is it true, necessary, kind.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          >
          > eyesopen wrote:
          >
          > Hi everyone,
          >
          > I read this great post on the Truth Seeker site and wanted to share
          > it with you.
          >
          > Have Fun.
          >
          > Kaye
          >
          > Journey
          > 4/25/2006
          >
          > The eck Quote by Buddha: " True, Necessary, Kind"
          >
          > Hello, Priscus!
          >
          > Thank you for asking where I found the quote by Buddha. I read it on
          > page 349, in Julian Johnson's book, published 1939, "The Path of the
          > Masters." Julian Johnson wrote: "A rule laid down by the noble
          > Buddha is a most excellent one for all men to follow. He (Buddha)
          > said that if you propose to speak, always ask yourself—`is it true,
          > is it necessary, is it kind?'" I used the quote, attributing it to
          > Buddha, thinking that Harald might respond somewhat as you have. It
          > is an often used quote by Eckists, and even the eck singing
          > vahanas, "The Hindu Kush Mountain Boys Plus One," wrote a song based
          > on it in the mid 80's and made the quote more popular and attributed
          > to Eckankar. I did enjoy hearing this group perform on more than one
          > occasion. I agree that it is a fine quote; however, it has been over-
          > used in Eckankar when enforcing the Law of Silence, so it is an eck
          > suppression tool. It's interesting, that at one time, JPT once spoke
          > of this as being the "art of silence." You may recall that Usually
          > Skeptical (Nacal) showed how Klemp did not follow this rule himself
          > in regards to the Postal Worker story. I have been reading Klemp's
          > latest book, "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," and have noted that
          > Klemp is now calling some chelas "losers," (found on page 211) so
          > again it appears that Klemp continues to not apply this rule to
          > himself.
          >
          > In "Confessions of a God Seeker," Ford explains how Twitchell
          > plagiarized from "The Path of the Masters," so it is rather evident
          > that this quote is still another example of something that Twitchell
          > plagiarized from other sources in creating Eckankar. In moving away
          > from the eck experience, it does help to sort out what you found
          > valuable and be able to learn that those "truths" originated else
          > where, and you can then believe that you might very well have found
          > them yourself in other sources which attribute them rightfully to
          > their originator. It is my conclusion, and a helpful one for me, to
          > realize that it is not necessary to credit and thank Eckankar for
          > spiritual growth, even though I had an experience there. Eckankar is
          > not a necessary stepping stone on the spiritual path.
          >
          > To Patmc: I will mention again the yahoo group, Eckankar Survivors
          > Anonymous. Usually Skeptical (Nacal), now using the pseudo
          > Prometheus on that group, along with others are keeping current with
          > the latest eck shenanigans—the Mystic World, Youth Letter of Light,
          > HK's talks and latest writings, etc. The posts are open to the
          > public for reading, both current and archived messages. One does not
          > have to join to access the posts, and a non member can post and/or
          > ask questions; however, non member posters are moderated which seems
          > fair enough. Also, the yahoo group Spiritual Survivor is moderated
          > by Ed Kusi. It is a private site that is delving into some
          > interesting spiritual discussions. To access the posts there, one
          > must sign on as a member.
          >
          > Here's the links:
          >
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
          >
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spiritualsurvivor
          > Also, there are some groups in German:
          >
          > A newsgroup for Ex-Eckists and critical Eckists in German
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Eck-ist-ECK
          >
          > German copy of ESA: EckankarFragenAnonym (EFA)
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarFragenAnonym
          >
          > Critical Eckankar info in German-contains German translation of
          > David Lane
          > http://www.eckist.info
          >
          > It isn't necessary to always agree with all views, but along with
          > participating on TS/HCS, a Truth Seeker can find a variety of
          > information and ideas that help a former Eckist to understand more
          > fully his/her eck experience. It is good to have a variety of
          > resources in order to maintain balance and more easily find answers
          > to questions and concerns.
          >
          > Best Wishes,
          > Journey
          >
        • mishmisha9
          Hi, Kaye and All! TS has a new post on his BB, 4/30/2006, Weekly Posting: Response to Q Whan on Plagiarism and Other Matters which goes along in part with
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 30, 2006
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            Hi, Kaye and All!

            TS has a new post on his BB, 4/30/2006, "Weekly Posting: Response to
            Q Whan on Plagiarism and Other Matters" which goes along in part
            with this other repost (below) from the Truth Seeker Message Board,
            regarding PT's plagiarism of the Buddha quote.

            Ford Johnson writes:

            "I have maintained in Confessions that I was able to overcome the
            charges of plagiarism in my earlier reading of Lane's work because I
            too was not so concerned with the source of the statement as long as
            it represented the truth--to the degree that the writer saw and
            understood that truth. But Paul did not live up to this standard and
            that is why the old rationale of looking past the idiosyncrasies of
            Paul, lifting the works of others i.e. plagiarism, could no longer
            be overlooked.

            Through uncovering and analyzing his many techniques of distortion
            and brainwashing, it became clear that the intentions of this man
            were not noble as I had assumed. I had to search into the mysteries
            of mythomania (pathological lying) before any reconciling principle
            could be found to explain the actions of a person who appeared
            sincere and working from the highest principles on the one hand yet
            continuously engaged in lying of the most extensive, often
            unnecessaary, and obviously refutable type. So, PAUL GAVE UP HIS
            RIGHT TO OUR THANKS AND APPRECIATION FOR BRINGING THIS INFORMATION
            TO OUR ATTENTION BY USING THE TRUTH TO OPEN THE DOOR TO OUR
            CONSCIOUS ACCEPTANCE OF HIM AND HIS WRITINGS WHILE PLANTING LIES OF
            SUCH MAGINTUDE THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE QUESTIONED(my caps). This is
            the strategy of the 'great lie' about which he was most familiar and
            used extensively.

            That is why reading Paul has been equated with swimming with sharks.
            A lie can pop out at any time to bite, i.e. infect the store of
            information that has been allowed into our consciousness as truth."

            Ford further states: "Many now in Eckankar can not bear to read
            Confessions. They are simply not prepared to confront information
            that they suspect can dislocate their comfortable equilibrium. This
            is ego's way of protecting them now because they really can't deal
            with truth at this time. They are not willing to go through the
            dislocation that truth will foster if they seek a new equilibrium.
            While this is the inevitable process of spiritual growth, ego
            protects each of us until we are ready to handle the next dose of
            truth. That is why a love for, indeed the imperative of truth, is
            the most important ingredient in the spiritual unfoldment of the
            individual. Some of us are truth-seekers while others are,
            temporarily at least, 'gate keepers.'"

            It seems to me, that even some former eckists continue to have a
            problem with acknowledging the "imperative of truth." They cling to
            what they held so dearly in the eck teachings, maintaining that
            these were truths they would not have found elsewhere, that Paul
            gave them so much, etc. But when in fact, the truths/valuable
            lessons were stolen and Paul had just signed his name to them!
            Priscus was happy to discover that the "Is it true, is it necessary,
            is it kind" quote originated outside of eckankar. He valued it, but
            now knowing that it did not from PT or Rebazar or eckankar, he can
            let go of another org lie. He says it is wonderful to know this real
            truth!

            I realize it is hard to look at what we once thought was true but is
            clearly a lie. Our ego will rationalize to cushion that shock and/or
            denial, but the greatest freedom does come from facing truth head-
            on, acknowledging it in its entirety. There is no shame in being
            duped or deceived, because now we see. Now we know, and we should
            say as Priscus did--it's "wonderful!" And we need to share what we
            learned with others!

            Mish


            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "eyesopen444"
            <eyesopen444@...> wrote:

            Hi everyone,
            I read this great post on the Truth Seeker site and wanted to share
            it with you.

            Have Fun.

            Kaye

            Journey
            4/25/2006

            The eck Quote by Buddha: " True, Necessary, Kind"

            Hello, Priscus!

            Thank you for asking where I found the quote by Buddha. I read it on
            page 349, in Julian Johnson's book, published 1939, "The Path of the
            Masters." Julian Johnson wrote: "A rule laid down by the noble
            Buddha is a most excellent one for all men to follow. He (Buddha)
            said that if you propose to speak, always ask yourself—`is it true,
            is it necessary, is it kind?'" I used the quote, attributing it to
            Buddha, thinking that Harald might respond somewhat as you have. It
            is an often used quote by Eckists, and even the eck singing
            vahanas, "The Hindu Kush Mountain Boys Plus One," wrote a song based
            on it in the mid 80's and made the quote more popular and attributed
            to Eckankar. I did enjoy hearing this group perform on more than one
            occasion. I agree that it is a fine quote; however, it has been over-
            used in Eckankar when enforcing the Law of Silence, so it is an eck
            suppression tool. It's interesting, that at one time, JPT once spoke
            of this as being the "art of silence." You may recall that Usually
            Skeptical (Nacal) showed how Klemp did not follow this rule himself
            in regards to the Postal Worker story. I have been reading Klemp's
            latest book, "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," and have noted that
            Klemp is now calling some chelas "losers," (found on page 211) so
            again it appears that Klemp continues to not apply this rule to
            himself.

            In "Confessions of a God Seeker," Ford explains how Twitchell
            plagiarized from "The Path of the Masters," so it is rather evident
            that this quote is still another example of something that Twitchell
            plagiarized from other sources in creating Eckankar. In moving away
            from the eck experience, it does help to sort out what you found
            valuable and be able to learn that those "truths" originated else
            where, and you can then believe that you might very well have found
            them yourself in other sources which attribute them rightfully to
            their originator. It is my conclusion, and a helpful one for me, to
            realize that it is not necessary to credit and thank Eckankar for
            spiritual growth, even though I had an experience there. Eckankar is
            not a necessary stepping stone on the spiritual path.

            <snip>

            Best Wishes,
            Journey
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hi All, Swimming through the lies of Twitchell is worse than swimming with sharks and getting bit! The problem with trying to sift through the lies in the
            Message 5 of 8 , May 2, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi All,
              Swimming through the lies of Twitchell is worse than swimming with
              sharks and getting bit! The problem with trying to sift through the
              lies in the Eck(ankar) teachings in order to find "truth" is that
              truth and fiction are intertwined. And, even the quality of
              these "truths" are questionable. These other sources for "truth"
              that Twitchell used are Not necessarily the highest! So, one needs
              to be really cautious when sifting through and accepting anything
              that Twitchell used in any and all of his books!

              Some of the fiction that Twitchell came up with are: the Eck
              Initiations; the Eck Masters; the Rod of Eck Power and the Mahanta!
              These were all creations for Twitchell's religious scam and new
              vocation! Therefore, just look at everything else, in the Eck dogma,
              that are tied into these basic lies! Gross and Klemp were fooled
              too, at first. However, they soon realized, after taking power as
              the LEM/Mahanta, that the Mahanta Consciousness too was a hoax!

              Eckankar is a crutch like every other religion out there and,
              therefore, Eckists will always be taught to "need" their crutch!
              There will never be independence, Self-Mastery, and Spiritual
              Freedom for Eckists! The Initiation carrot will always keep them in
              the race. Besides, it feels good for Eckists' egos to "know" that
              they are the most evolved Souls on all Planes of Consciousness! LOL!
              However, I must admit that it is nice to feel safe and secure...
              only for REAL! When will the Eck eaglets ever grow the feathers to
              leave the nest and soar on their own - Never! If Klemp has his way!
              <smile>

              Prometheus




              mishmisha wrote:

              Hi, Kaye and All!

              TS has a new post on his BB, 4/30/2006, "Weekly Posting: Response to
              Q Whan on Plagiarism and Other Matters" which goes along in part
              with this other repost (below) from the Truth Seeker Message Board,
              regarding PT's plagiarism of the Buddha quote.

              *********************************************************************

              Ford Johnson writes:
              [quote]
              "I have maintained in Confessions that I was able to overcome the
              charges of plagiarism in my earlier reading of Lane's work because I
              too was not so concerned with the source of the statement as long as
              it represented the truth--to the degree that the writer saw and
              understood that truth. But Paul did not live up to this standard and
              that is why the old rationale of looking past the idiosyncrasies of
              Paul, lifting the works of others i.e. plagiarism, could no longer
              be overlooked.

              Through uncovering and analyzing his many techniques of distortion
              and brainwashing, it became clear that the intentions of this man
              were not noble as I had assumed. I had to search into the mysteries
              of mythomania (pathological lying) before any reconciling principle
              could be found to explain the actions of a person who appeared
              sincere and working from the highest principles on the one hand yet
              continuously engaged in lying of the most extensive, often
              unnecessaary, and obviously refutable type.

              So, PAUL GAVE UP HIS RIGHT TO OUR THANKS AND APPRECIATION FOR
              BRINGING THIS INFORMATION TO OUR ATTENTION BY USING THE TRUTH TO
              OPEN THE DOOR TO OUR CONSCIOUS ACCEPTANCE OF HIM AND HIS WRITINGS
              WHILE PLANTING LIES OF SUCH MAGINTUDE THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE
              QUESTIONED(my caps).

              This is the strategy of the 'great lie' about which he was most
              familiar and used extensively.

              That is why reading Paul has been equated with swimming with sharks.
              A lie can pop out at any time to bite, i.e. infect the store of
              information that has been allowed into our consciousness as truth."
              [end of quote]

              ********************************************************************

              Ford further states: "Many now in Eckankar can not bear to read
              Confessions. They are simply not prepared to confront information
              that they suspect can dislocate their comfortable equilibrium. This
              is ego's way of protecting them now because they really can't deal
              with truth at this time. They are not willing to go through the
              dislocation that truth will foster if they seek a new equilibrium.
              While this is the inevitable process of spiritual growth, ego
              protects each of us until we are ready to handle the next dose of
              truth. That is why a love for, indeed the imperative of truth, is
              the most important ingredient in the spiritual unfoldment of the
              individual. Some of us are truth-seekers while others are,
              temporarily at least, 'gate keepers.'"

              It seems to me, that even some former eckists continue to have a
              problem with acknowledging the "imperative of truth." They cling to
              what they held so dearly in the eck teachings, maintaining that
              these were truths they would not have found elsewhere, that Paul
              gave them so much, etc. But when in fact, the truths/valuable
              lessons were stolen and Paul had just signed his name to them!
              Priscus was happy to discover that the "Is it true, is it necessary,
              is it kind" quote originated outside of eckankar. He valued it, but
              now knowing that it did not from PT or Rebazar or eckankar, he can
              let go of another org lie. He says it is wonderful to know this real
              truth!

              I realize it is hard to look at what we once thought was true but is
              clearly a lie. Our ego will rationalize to cushion that shock and/or
              denial, but the greatest freedom does come from facing truth head-
              on, acknowledging it in its entirety. There is no shame in being
              duped or deceived, because now we see. Now we know, and we should
              say as Priscus did--it's "wonderful!" And we need to share what we
              learned with others!

              Mish


              eyesopen wrote:

              Hi everyone,
              I read this great post on the Truth Seeker site and wanted to share
              it with you.

              Have Fun.

              Kaye

              Journey
              4/25/2006

              The eck Quote by Buddha: " True, Necessary, Kind"

              Hello, Priscus!

              Thank you for asking where I found the quote by Buddha. I read it on
              page 349, in Julian Johnson's book, published 1939, "The Path of the
              Masters." Julian Johnson wrote: "A rule laid down by the noble
              Buddha is a most excellent one for all men to follow. He (Buddha)
              said that if you propose to speak, always ask yourself—`is it true,
              is it necessary, is it kind?'" I used the quote, attributing it to
              Buddha, thinking that Harald might respond somewhat as you have. It
              is an often used quote by Eckists, and even the eck singing
              vahanas, "The Hindu Kush Mountain Boys Plus One," wrote a song based
              on it in the mid 80's and made the quote more popular and attributed
              to Eckankar. I did enjoy hearing this group perform on more than one
              occasion. I agree that it is a fine quote; however, it has been over-
              used in Eckankar when enforcing the Law of Silence, so it is an eck
              suppression tool. It's interesting, that at one time, JPT once spoke
              of this as being the "art of silence." You may recall that Usually
              Skeptical (Nacal) showed how Klemp did not follow this rule himself
              in regards to the Postal Worker story. I have been reading Klemp's
              latest book, "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," and have noted that
              Klemp is now calling some chelas "losers," (found on page 211) so
              again it appears that Klemp continues to not apply this rule to
              himself.

              In "Confessions of a God Seeker," Ford explains how Twitchell
              plagiarized from "The Path of the Masters," so it is rather evident
              that this quote is still another example of something that Twitchell
              plagiarized from other sources in creating Eckankar. In moving away
              from the eck experience, it does help to sort out what you found
              valuable and be able to learn that those "truths" originated else
              where, and you can then believe that you might very well have found
              them yourself in other sources which attribute them rightfully to
              their originator. It is my conclusion, and a helpful one for me, to
              realize that it is not necessary to credit and thank Eckankar for
              spiritual growth, even though I had an experience there. Eckankar is
              not a necessary stepping stone on the spiritual path.

              <snip>

              Best Wishes,
              Journey
            • mishmisha9
              ... Hi, Kaye and All! TS has a new post on his BB, 4/30/2006, Weekly Posting: Response to Q Whan on Plagiarism and Other Matters which goes along in part
              Message 6 of 8 , May 5, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                >mishmisha wrote:

                Hi, Kaye and All!

                TS has a new post on his BB, 4/30/2006, "Weekly Posting: Response to
                Q Whan on Plagiarism and Other Matters" which goes along in part
                with this other repost (below) from the Truth Seeker Message Board,
                regarding PT's plagiarism of the Buddha quote.

                This is a portion of Ford Johnson's post: "Many now in Eckankar can
                not bear to read Confessions. They are simply not prepared to
                confront information that they suspect can dislocate their
                comfortable equilibrium. This is ego's way of protecting them now
                because they really can't deal with truth at this time. They are not
                willing to go through the dislocation that truth will foster if they
                seek a new equilibrium. While this is the inevitable process of
                spiritual growth, ego protects each of us until we are ready to
                handle the next dose of truth. That is why a love for, indeed the
                imperative of truth, is the most important ingredient in the
                spiritual unfoldment of the individual. Some of us are truth-seekers
                while others are, temporarily at least, 'gate keepers.'"

                >

                Hi, All!

                I wanted to take a portion from the earlier post to highlight what
                Ford wrote about why many eckists cannot and/or do not want to read
                his book "Confessions of a God Seeker." I think what Ford stated
                expresses it very well. For sure the ego is looking to be protected,
                but there is also the initial reason the ego seeks to be led and
                indoctrinated. It seems that many prefer taking the "easy way" by
                agreeing to being a follower of some godman--even accepting the fact
                that the spiritual goal of attaining spiritual freedom will not be
                achieved in this lifetime. These followers seem like sleep walkers
                in that they know very well that the eagerly sought higher
                initiations will take forever! But they don't seem to mind, or
                perhaps the law of silence and the threat of being called a loser by
                the mahanta keeps them waking up to the truth! Of course, while the
                lower initiates are slowly chasing the carrot of initiations,
                eckankar is earning their money! : )

                "The Easy Way," of course, is the name of the first discourse that
                is offered in eckankar right now. For the sum of $130.00-$135.00
                (annual membership dues), one receives this set of loose pamphlets.
                There is not much sustance to them, especially when one considers
                the price of receiving this "education." Being deceived into
                believing that the fake mahanta and fake eck masters can show chelas
                the easy way toward spiritual growth and enlightenment is pricey in
                more ways then one. (I think I have my copies of the discourses
                somewhere so I might re-visit what is written on those illuminary
                pages! LOL!)

                Anyway, it is my belief that many individuals join guru led paths
                because it is the easy way. Many individuals who elect to be
                followers and surrender their higher self seem a bit lazy and
                irresponsible. And they fear looking at the truth, i.e. reading
                Ford's book. It certainly is much easier to believe the mahanta can
                show them the way, help them to reach God Realization. But
                unfortunately, the mahanta has no special talents or abilities;
                therefore he is doing absolutely nothing for the chelas beyond
                misleading, deceiving, impeding their spiritual growth, and of
                course eagerly taking their hard earned money! It's a perfect scam
                because so many people really want to be followers of
                some sort or another instead of standing up against the wind!

                Mish
              • prometheus_973
                Hi All, I thought that I would revisit this topic and share the path of the trinity definition om page 159 in Klemp s Eckankar LexiCon. The quote is: path
                Message 7 of 8 , Oct 2, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi All,
                  I thought that I would revisit this topic and share the "path of the
                  trinity" definition om page 159 in Klemp's Eckankar LexiCon. The
                  quote is:

                  "path of the trinity. Three questions to ask oneself when in doubt
                  about an action: Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind?"

                  It's also interesting to note that neither PATH or TRINITY are
                  capitalized. Klemp, it seems, relies upon the recycled and
                  repackaged plagiarism of Twitchell's for the foundation of Eckankar
                  while adding his own personal twist through his stupid stories.


                  Mishmisha wrote:

                  TS has a new post on his BB, 4/30/2006, "Weekly Posting: Response to
                  Q Whan on Plagiarism and Other Matters" which goes along in part
                  with this other repost (below) from the Truth Seeker Message Board,
                  regarding PT's plagiarism of the Buddha quote.

                  Ford Johnson writes:

                  "I have maintained in Confessions that I was able to overcome the
                  charges of plagiarism in my earlier reading of Lane's work because I
                  too was not so concerned with the source of the statement as long as
                  it represented the truth--to the degree that the writer saw and
                  understood that truth. But Paul did not live up to this standard and
                  that is why the old rationale of looking past the idiosyncrasies of
                  Paul, lifting the works of others i.e. plagiarism, could no longer
                  be overlooked.

                  Through uncovering and analyzing his many techniques of distortion
                  and brainwashing, it became clear that the intentions of this man
                  were not noble as I had assumed. I had to search into the mysteries
                  of mythomania (pathological lying) before any reconciling principle
                  could be found to explain the actions of a person who appeared
                  sincere and working from the highest principles on the one hand yet
                  continuously engaged in lying of the most extensive, often
                  unnecessaary, and obviously refutable type. So, PAUL GAVE UP HIS
                  RIGHT TO OUR THANKS AND APPRECIATION FOR BRINGING THIS INFORMATION
                  TO OUR ATTENTION BY USING THE TRUTH TO OPEN THE DOOR TO OUR
                  CONSCIOUS ACCEPTANCE OF HIM AND HIS WRITINGS WHILE PLANTING LIES OF
                  SUCH MAGINTUDE THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE QUESTIONED(my caps). This is
                  the strategy of the 'great lie' about which he was most familiar and
                  used extensively.

                  That is why reading Paul has been equated with swimming with sharks.
                  A lie can pop out at any time to bite, i.e. infect the store of
                  information that has been allowed into our consciousness as truth."

                  Ford further states:
                  "Many now in Eckankar can not bear to read Confessions. They are
                  simply not prepared to confront information that they suspect can
                  dislocate their comfortable equilibrium. This is ego's way of
                  protecting them now because they really can't deal with truth at
                  this time. They are not willing to go through the dislocation that
                  truth will foster if they seek a new equilibrium. While this is the
                  inevitable process of spiritual growth, ego protects each of us
                  until we are ready to handle the next dose of truth. That is why a
                  love for, indeed the imperative of truth, is the most important
                  ingredient in the spiritual unfoldment of the individual. Some of us
                  are truth-seekers while others are, temporarily at least, 'gate
                  keepers.'"


                  It seems to me, that even some former eckists continue to have a
                  problem with acknowledging the "imperative of truth." They cling to
                  what they held so dearly in the eck teachings, maintaining that
                  these were truths they would not have found elsewhere, that Paul
                  gave them so much, etc. But when in fact, the truths/valuable
                  lessons were stolen and Paul had just signed his name to them!
                  Priscus was happy to discover that the "Is it true, is it necessary,
                  is it kind" quote originated outside of eckankar. He valued it, but
                  now knowing that it did not from PT or Rebazar or eckankar, he can
                  let go of another org lie. He says it is wonderful to know this real
                  truth!

                  I realize it is hard to look at what we once thought was true but is
                  clearly a lie. Our ego will rationalize to cushion that shock and/or
                  denial, but the greatest freedom does come from facing truth head-
                  on, acknowledging it in its entirety. There is no shame in being
                  duped or deceived, because now we see. Now we know, and we should
                  say as Priscus did--it's "wonderful!" And we need to share what we
                  learned with others!

                  Mish


                  From the http://www.thetruth-seeker.com BB by Journey 4/25/2006


                  The eck Quote by Buddha: "True, Necessary, Kind"

                  Hello, Priscus!

                  Thank you for asking where I found the quote by Buddha. I read it on
                  page 349, in Julian Johnson's book, published 1939, "The Path of the
                  Masters." Julian Johnson wrote: "A rule laid down by the noble
                  Buddha is a most excellent one for all men to follow. He (Buddha)
                  said that if you propose to speak, always ask yourself—`is it true,
                  is it necessary, is it kind?'" I used the quote, attributing it to
                  Buddha, thinking that Harald might respond somewhat as you have. It
                  is an often used quote by Eckists, and even the eck singing
                  vahanas, "The Hindu Kush Mountain Boys Plus One," wrote a song based
                  on it in the mid 80's and made the quote more popular and attributed
                  to Eckankar. I did enjoy hearing this group perform on more than one
                  occasion. I agree that it is a fine quote; however, it has been over-
                  used in Eckankar when enforcing the Law of Silence, so it is an eck
                  suppression tool. It's interesting, that at one time, JPT once spoke
                  of this as being the "art of silence." You may recall that Usually
                  Skeptical (Nacal) showed how Klemp did not follow this rule himself
                  in regards to the Postal Worker story. I have been reading Klemp's
                  latest book, "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," and have noted that
                  Klemp is now calling some chelas "losers," (found on page 211) so
                  again it appears that Klemp continues to not apply this rule to
                  himself.

                  In "Confessions of a God Seeker," Ford explains how Twitchell
                  plagiarized from "The Path of the Masters," so it is rather evident
                  that this quote is still another example of something that Twitchell
                  plagiarized from other sources in creating Eckankar. In moving away
                  from the eck experience, it does help to sort out what you found
                  valuable and be able to learn that those "truths" originated else
                  where, and you can then believe that you might very well have found
                  them yourself in other sources which attribute them rightfully to
                  their originator. It is my conclusion, and a helpful one for me, to
                  realize that it is not necessary to credit and thank Eckankar for
                  spiritual growth, even though I had an experience there. Eckankar is
                  not a necessary stepping stone on the spiritual path.

                  <snip>

                  Best Wishes,
                  Journey
                • Elizabeth
                  Found this one to be important enough to bring forward again! Though I did notice this morning, that the Truth Seeker BB is being revamped and currently under
                  Message 8 of 8 , Dec 2, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Found this one to be important enough to bring forward again! Though
                    I did notice this morning, that the Truth Seeker BB is being
                    revamped and currently under construction. So this archive from ESA
                    is an important message to keep around, just incase the BB from TS
                    archives will no longer be available!

                    Elizabeth

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "eyesopen444"
                    <eyesopen444@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi everyone,
                    >
                    > I read this great post on the Truth Seeker site and wanted to
                    share
                    > it with you.
                    >
                    > Have Fun.
                    >
                    > Kaye
                    >
                    > Journey
                    > 4/25/2006
                    >
                    > The eck Quote by Buddha: " True, Necessary, Kind"
                    >
                    > Hello, Priscus!
                    >
                    > Thank you for asking where I found the quote by Buddha. I read it
                    on
                    > page 349, in Julian Johnson's book, published 1939, "The Path of
                    the
                    > Masters." Julian Johnson wrote: "A rule laid down by the noble
                    > Buddha is a most excellent one for all men to follow. He (Buddha)
                    > said that if you propose to speak, always ask yourself—`is it
                    true,
                    > is it necessary, is it kind?'" I used the quote, attributing it to
                    > Buddha, thinking that Harald might respond somewhat as you have.
                    It
                    > is an often used quote by Eckists, and even the eck singing
                    > vahanas, "The Hindu Kush Mountain Boys Plus One," wrote a song
                    based
                    > on it in the mid 80's and made the quote more popular and
                    attributed
                    > to Eckankar. I did enjoy hearing this group perform on more than
                    one
                    > occasion. I agree that it is a fine quote; however, it has been
                    over-
                    > used in Eckankar when enforcing the Law of Silence, so it is an
                    eck
                    > suppression tool. It's interesting, that at one time, JPT once
                    spoke
                    > of this as being the "art of silence." You may recall that Usually
                    > Skeptical (Nacal) showed how Klemp did not follow this rule
                    himself
                    > in regards to the Postal Worker story. I have been reading Klemp's
                    > latest book, "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," and have noted that
                    > Klemp is now calling some chelas "losers," (found on page 211) so
                    > again it appears that Klemp continues to not apply this rule to
                    > himself.
                    >
                    > In "Confessions of a God Seeker," Ford explains how Twitchell
                    > plagiarized from "The Path of the Masters," so it is rather
                    evident
                    > that this quote is still another example of something that
                    Twitchell
                    > plagiarized from other sources in creating Eckankar. In moving
                    away
                    > from the eck experience, it does help to sort out what you found
                    > valuable and be able to learn that those "truths" originated else
                    > where, and you can then believe that you might very well have
                    found
                    > them yourself in other sources which attribute them rightfully to
                    > their originator. It is my conclusion, and a helpful one for me,
                    to
                    > realize that it is not necessary to credit and thank Eckankar for
                    > spiritual growth, even though I had an experience there. Eckankar
                    is
                    > not a necessary stepping stone on the spiritual path.
                    >
                    > To Patmc: I will mention again the yahoo group, Eckankar Survivors
                    > Anonymous. Usually Skeptical (Nacal), now using the pseudo
                    > Prometheus on that group, along with others are keeping current
                    with
                    > the latest eck shenanigans—the Mystic World, Youth Letter of
                    Light,
                    > HK's talks and latest writings, etc. The posts are open to the
                    > public for reading, both current and archived messages. One does
                    not
                    > have to join to access the posts, and a non member can post and/or
                    > ask questions; however, non member posters are moderated which
                    seems
                    > fair enough. Also, the yahoo group Spiritual Survivor is moderated
                    > by Ed Kusi. It is a private site that is delving into some
                    > interesting spiritual discussions. To access the posts there, one
                    > must sign on as a member.
                    >
                    > Here's the links:
                    >
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                    >
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spiritualsurvivor
                    > Also, there are some groups in German:
                    >
                    > A newsgroup for Ex-Eckists and critical Eckists in German
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Eck-ist-ECK
                    >
                    > German copy of ESA: EckankarFragenAnonym (EFA)
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarFragenAnonym
                    >
                    > Critical Eckankar info in German-contains German translation of
                    > David Lane
                    > http://www.eckist.info
                    >
                    > It isn't necessary to always agree with all views, but along with
                    > participating on TS/HCS, a Truth Seeker can find a variety of
                    > information and ideas that help a former Eckist to understand more
                    > fully his/her eck experience. It is good to have a variety of
                    > resources in order to maintain balance and more easily find
                    answers
                    > to questions and concerns.
                    >
                    > Best Wishes,
                    > Journey
                    >
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