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Re: Unconditional Love and Responsibility

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  • l2eigh
    Hi Mish (again): Okay. I m sorry. I was skipping too much in your post. I think people make a mistake when they think they can detach themselves from their
    Message 1 of 9 , May 24, 2005
      Hi Mish (again):
      Okay. I'm sorry. I was skipping too
      much in your post. I think people
      make a mistake when they think they can detach themselves from their
      feelings. You're
      feelings are with you 24 hours a day. You're never "detached" from
      them. You just may not
      have your attention on them. Of course there's always conflict when
      you try to push
      something that's part of the central part of you away. What's
      important is your survival. If
      your worrying about something is threatening your survival you've got
      to do something
      about it. It depends on what it is and what your commitments are out
      beyond the point
      that's bothering you. Do we pay for being uncompassionate? I don't
      think there's any
      question that we somehow "pay" if we are uncompassionate -
      repeatedly, that is. Anyone
      can make a mistake or miss an opportunity. I wouldn't say that's the
      same thing, or put it
      in the same category. Responsibility? You say: "If we love someone,
      don't we have
      responsibility for their well-being as well?" No. Your child, or
      children, yes. Your husband?
      - maybe. You see, there's a difference. What you're talking about is
      relationships. Love in
      relationships. You make your decisions about that and how much your
      commitment will
      be, how far it will go. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make a smart
      remark. I'm just making a
      point. I think children are responsibilities and obligations we have
      to live up to the best we
      can, and circumstances sometimes interfere with that. But
      nevertheless that, is that, and
      everything else is about choice. No one could tell me how much to
      love my wife, for
      instance. That was entirely a matter of my choice. And I wouldn't
      have had it any other
      way.
      Love in relationships. Everything is a
      relationship, eh? You talk about
      love and caring. I think it's important to distinguish between love
      and compassion. I don't
      believe they're the same. I believe they each have different demands
      and different
      requirements. I believe it's important to practice both constantly
      and continuously, but to
      be cautious, or careful not to mix the two up.
      And finally, you ask: "how can we
      become advanced in consciousness
      if we detach from love and caring?" I don't think we can. I think if
      we do that, we become
      retarded and compassion goes out the window.
      I don't know if what I've said here
      has been at all helpful. It's a bit
      late, I'm a bit tired, and it's the best I can do at the moment. I
      don't think there's anything
      you don't understand. "Detachment" I think is what confuses everyone.
      It only just really
      means "objectivity". We're objective at times, subjective at times,
      and a range of other
      things as well. It's the putting a premium on one thing or another or
      on one thing over the
      other that some people do, that (I think) just shows they don't
      understand what they're
      saying. We have to try to be complete. That means have a full range
      of feelings and do the
      best we can with them. That' s all we can ask of ourselves, what more
      is possible after all?

      Best wishes,
      Leigh




      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
      <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
      > Hi, All!
      >
      > Did any of you feel confused about the teachings of Unconditional
      > Love and its application while a member of Eckankar? To me, there
      > seemed to be confusion and also conflict with what was being taught
      > in this regard.
      >
      > Recently, my husband was talking to an Eckist friend whose elderly
      > father is now in a nursing home and not doing very well. She was
      > commenting about how she was never close to her father and how he
      > seemed to distance himself from the family get-togethers by going
      > off to watch TV while the rest of the family visited with one
      > another. So it seems that she is detaching herself from her
      > emotional feelings for her father. She also mentioned how her
      > elderly mother drives herself to the nursing home on a regular
      basis
      > to visit her husband. This Eckist mentioned how dangerous it is
      when
      > driving out of the nursing home parking lot because of the heavy
      and
      > fast moving traffic. She said that she always turns right because
      it
      > is too dangerous to try to make a left turn. However, her elderly
      > mother turns left and has had close calls--actually, she has gotten
      > her car clipped. The Eckist has tried to tell her mother not to
      turn
      > left, but she continues to make the left turns. The Eckist feels
      > that oh, well, it will be her mother's karma as well as the others'
      > who might be involved in a potential accident. So it is not
      > bothering her that much that her mother is doing something so
      > dangerous on nearly daily basis.
      >
      > It seems that to detach oneself from these feelings creates
      internal
      > conflict. Can one really detach so easily from our feelings for
      > those we have been and are close to? Is it normal to do this? What
      > does one pay in the long run for being so "unloving" by distancing
      > ourselves from these feelings of love and concern for others? And
      > what about responsibility? If we love someone, don't we have
      > responsibility for their well-being as well?
      >
      > What is unconditional love? And how can we become advanced in
      > consciousness if we detach from love and caring?
      >
      > I just never understood this in eck discussion groups and writings.
      > It never made sense to me.
      >
      > Mish
    • Greg and Liz
      ... Love and its application while a member of Eckankar? ... father is now in a nursing home and not doing very well. She was commenting about how she was
      Message 2 of 9 , May 25, 2005


        mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...> wrote:

        >Did any of you feel confused about the teachings of Unconditional
        Love and its application while a member of Eckankar?

        *** I joined eckankar when I was a pre-teen with my entire family.  Being raised in the teachings with this Unconditional Love was more than just confusing, it was painfully hurtful!  Although I would clarify that my mother has some form of "mental disorder/s",  this was/is the perfect religion for her.  She can isolate herself from her family, and her screwed up behavior is an excuse for her high spiritualness.        

        >Recently, my husband was talking to an Eckist friend whose elderly
        father is now in a nursing home and not doing very well. She was
        commenting about how she was never close to her father...

        >snip<

        The Eckist feels that oh, well, it will be her mother's karma as well as the others' who might be involved in a potential accident. So it is not bothering her that much that her mother is doing something so dangerous on nearly daily basis.

        *** This sounds so familiar!  Any attachment to family, or life in general is a chela's downfall!  We are suppose to work off our karma and eventually have no emotional ties.  To me this is where eckankar shows it's "dysfunctional" disorder.  Recall that Twitchell had some serious disorders of his own.  It was written into the teachings.  Speak to some HI's/members and they will tell you we have it all wrong!  Speak to others and they will verify that yes it is completely normal to detach oneself from their feelings and normal emotional needs.


        >It seems that to detach oneself from these feelings creates internal conflict. Can one really detach so easily from our feelings for those we have been and are close to? Is it normal to do this?

        *** Mish, for me it was not something I could continue to follow!  I was a member for over 30years, and struggled the most with this very issue!  My heart ached for years and I struggled to detach from life... love, and normal human emotion.  Eventually I acknowledged that this is a disorder that I personally didn't really have but was being forced to practice.  It is easier for some to follow this in my opinion, like my mother.  How does a parent disown her children, and grandchildren because they (the children) walk away from this path?  I have shared parts of my own history within the cult, and mention my mother often, not because I am hurting for the relationship or don't understand...  I share it because I want others to see the dysfunction.  Yet Harold claims he will let a member/members go, if it creates this sort of discord within a family!  LOL he claims he won't promote this sort of dysfunction.  Yet......

        >What does one pay in the long run for being so "unloving" by distancing ourselves from these feelings of love and concern for others? And what about responsibility? If we love someone, don't we have responsibility for their well-being as well?

        ***  These were my same questions, and anguish...

            I could list numerous missed opportunities, experiences of genuine love that could be shared.  I have always felt that love is the most important reason for us being here.  Detached love, to me is not love at all!   


        >What is unconditional love? And how can we become advanced in consciousness if we detach from love and caring?

        *** Complete and devoted attachment to the mythical godman!  How can anyone advance in consciousness with their form of love?   

        >I just never understood this in eck discussion groups and writings.
        It never made sense to me.

        Mish

        *** I recall sitting in my first HI meeting....   all that unconditional love and ego... it literally made me ill.  Negativity being called love and spiritual.  LOL

        But it does make sense now doesn't it?  There is a reason for why unconditional love is written into the cult... it takes away our focus from others, and places it on the Godman!

         
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Liz, Thanks for the interesting response to Mish s topic. Yes, Eckankar (HK) is all about Harold (the mahanta). It s a never ending ride on the
        Message 3 of 9 , May 25, 2005
          Hi Liz,

          Thanks for the interesting response to Mish's topic. Yes, Eckankar
          (HK) is all about Harold (the mahanta). It's a never ending ride on
          the merry-go-round of Eckankar and delusion (Twitchell's very own
          creation of a New Age Frankenstein monster).

          Prometheus



          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Greg and Liz
          <whitefeatherliz@y...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
          > >Did any of you feel confused about the teachings of Unconditional
          > Love and its application while a member of Eckankar?
          >
          > *** I joined eckankar when I was a pre-teen with my entire
          family. Being raised in the teachings with this Unconditional Love
          was more than just confusing, it was painfully hurtful! Although I
          would clarify that my mother has some form of "mental disorder/s",
          this was/is the perfect religion for her. She can isolate herself
          from her family, and her screwed up behavior is an excuse for her
          high spiritualness.
          >
          > >Recently, my husband was talking to an Eckist friend whose
          elderly
          > father is now in a nursing home and not doing very well. She was
          > commenting about how she was never close to her father...
          >
          > >snip<
          >
          > The Eckist feels that oh, well, it will be her mother's karma as
          well as the others' who might be involved in a potential accident.
          So it is not bothering her that much that her mother is doing
          something so dangerous on nearly daily basis.
          >
          > *** This sounds so familiar! Any attachment to family, or life in
          general is a chela's downfall! We are suppose to work off our karma
          and eventually have no emotional ties. To me this is where eckankar
          shows it's "dysfunctional" disorder. Recall that Twitchell had some
          serious disorders of his own. It was written into the teachings.
          Speak to some HI's/members and they will tell you we have it all
          wrong! Speak to others and they will verify that yes it is
          completely normal to detach oneself from their feelings and normal
          emotional needs.
          >
          >
          > >It seems that to detach oneself from these feelings creates
          internal conflict. Can one really detach so easily from our feelings
          for those we have been and are close to? Is it normal to do this?
          >
          > *** Mish, for me it was not something I could continue to follow!
          I was a member for over 30years, and struggled the most with this
          very issue! My heart ached for years and I struggled to detach from
          life... love, and normal human emotion. Eventually I acknowledged
          that this is a disorder that I personally didn't really have but was
          being forced to practice. It is easier for some to follow this in
          my opinion, like my mother. How does a parent disown her children,
          and grandchildren because they (the children) walk away from this
          path? I have shared parts of my own history within the cult, and
          mention my mother often, not because I am hurting for the
          relationship or don't understand... I share it because I want
          others to see the dysfunction. Yet Harold claims he will let a
          member/members go, if it creates this sort of discord within a
          family! LOL he claims he won't promote this sort of dysfunction.
          Yet......
          >
          > >What does one pay in the long run for being so "unloving" by
          distancing ourselves from these feelings of love and concern for
          others? And what about responsibility? If we love someone, don't we
          have responsibility for their well-being as well?
          >
          > *** These were my same questions, and anguish...
          >
          > I could list numerous missed opportunities, experiences of
          genuine love that could be shared. I have always felt that love is
          the most important reason for us being here. Detached love, to me
          is not love at all!
          >
          >
          > >What is unconditional love? And how can we become advanced in
          consciousness if we detach from love and caring?
          >
          > *** Complete and devoted attachment to the mythical godman! How
          can anyone advance in consciousness with their form of love?
          >
          > >I just never understood this in eck discussion groups and
          writings.
          > It never made sense to me.
          >
          > Mish
          >
          > *** I recall sitting in my first HI meeting.... all that
          unconditional love and ego... it literally made me ill. Negativity
          being called love and spiritual. LOL
          >
          > But it does make sense now doesn't it? There is a reason for why
          unconditional love is written into the cult... it takes away our
          focus from others, and places it on the Godman!
        • mishmisha9
          Great comments! Exactly, what I was feeling as well. There was always so much lip service regarding love, but it didn t seem to be demonstrated. It all
          Message 4 of 9 , May 26, 2005
            Great comments! Exactly, what I was feeling as well. There was
            always so much "lip service" regarding love, but it didn't seem to
            be demonstrated. It all seemed so contrary, and unnatural to
            withhold the feelings and emotions. Dysfunctional individuals are
            easy prey for the trappings of the eck teachings. But maybe this is
            okay for them--their safe haven. Unfortunately, it does create
            discord with family members, both those who are in or out of the
            org. I really don't think Harold knows what love is which only adds
            to the confusion of those who follow his every word and action. : )

            Mish

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Greg and Liz
            <whitefeatherliz@y...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
            > >Did any of you feel confused about the teachings of Unconditional
            > Love and its application while a member of Eckankar?
            >
            > *** I joined eckankar when I was a pre-teen with my entire
            family. Being raised in the teachings with this Unconditional Love
            was more than just confusing, it was painfully hurtful! Although I
            would clarify that my mother has some form of "mental disorder/s",
            this was/is the perfect religion for her. She can isolate herself
            from her family, and her screwed up behavior is an excuse for her
            high spiritualness.
            >
            > >Recently, my husband was talking to an Eckist friend whose
            elderly
            > father is now in a nursing home and not doing very well. She was
            > commenting about how she was never close to her father...
            >
            > >snip<
            >
            > The Eckist feels that oh, well, it will be her mother's karma as
            well as the others' who might be involved in a potential accident.
            So it is not bothering her that much that her mother is doing
            something so dangerous on nearly daily basis.
            >
            > *** This sounds so familiar! Any attachment to family, or life in
            general is a chela's downfall! We are suppose to work off our karma
            and eventually have no emotional ties. To me this is where eckankar
            shows it's "dysfunctional" disorder. Recall that Twitchell had some
            serious disorders of his own. It was written into the teachings.
            Speak to some HI's/members and they will tell you we have it all
            wrong! Speak to others and they will verify that yes it is
            completely normal to detach oneself from their feelings and normal
            emotional needs.
            >
            >
            > >It seems that to detach oneself from these feelings creates
            internal conflict. Can one really detach so easily from our feelings
            for those we have been and are close to? Is it normal to do this?
            >
            > *** Mish, for me it was not something I could continue to follow!
            I was a member for over 30years, and struggled the most with this
            very issue! My heart ached for years and I struggled to detach from
            life... love, and normal human emotion. Eventually I acknowledged
            that this is a disorder that I personally didn't really have but was
            being forced to practice. It is easier for some to follow this in
            my opinion, like my mother. How does a parent disown her children,
            and grandchildren because they (the children) walk away from this
            path? I have shared parts of my own history within the cult, and
            mention my mother often, not because I am hurting for the
            relationship or don't understand... I share it because I want
            others to see the dysfunction. Yet Harold claims he will let a
            member/members go, if it creates this sort of discord within a
            family! LOL he claims he won't promote this sort of dysfunction.
            Yet......
            >
            > >What does one pay in the long run for being so "unloving" by
            distancing ourselves from these feelings of love and concern for
            others? And what about responsibility? If we love someone, don't we
            have responsibility for their well-being as well?
            >
            > *** These were my same questions, and anguish...
            >
            > I could list numerous missed opportunities, experiences of
            genuine love that could be shared. I have always felt that love is
            the most important reason for us being here. Detached love, to me
            is not love at all!
            >
            >
            > >What is unconditional love? And how can we become advanced in
            consciousness if we detach from love and caring?
            >
            > *** Complete and devoted attachment to the mythical godman! How
            can anyone advance in consciousness with their form of love?
            >
            > >I just never understood this in eck discussion groups and
            writings.
            > It never made sense to me.
            >
            > Mish
            >
            > *** I recall sitting in my first HI meeting.... all that
            unconditional love and ego... it literally made me ill. Negativity
            being called love and spiritual. LOL
            >
            > But it does make sense now doesn't it? There is a reason for why
            unconditional love is written into the cult... it takes away our
            focus from others, and places it on the Godman!
          • mishmisha9
            Hi, Leigh! Thanks for your follow-up post! Yes, I was talking about being detached and becoming unfeeling--devoid of love in essence. In my opinion, one needs
            Message 5 of 9 , May 26, 2005
              Hi, Leigh!

              Thanks for your follow-up post! Yes, I was talking about being
              detached and becoming unfeeling--devoid of love in essence. In my
              opinion, one needs to express feelings while the opportunity is
              still there. For instance, the person who was withdrawing from her
              elderly father saying that she was never close to him. Well, I
              rather doubt that is true. I remember my own father lovingly lifting
              me up as a young child and then holding me close. Just because we
              are grown up and our parents are elderly does not mean that we are
              no longer close to them. The love was there and should still be
              there, in my opinion. My father passed away a long time ago, but I
              have leaned to express love both verbally and physically to those
              who are close to me (appropriately, : ) ). I think when we are old
              and dying, we need to be held closer and feel that warmth of love as
              we leave this world and go on to the next. Detaching will probably
              create regrets.

              I also try to show compassion which really is another kind of love
              towards others I am not so familiar with as well. But I am not
              devoid of feeling or expressing anger at times either--I just try
              not to let it be my dominant emotion. There has to be balance, but
              love is the strong life force, as I see it.

              Mish

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
              <lgrif@m...> wrote:
              > Hi Mish (again):
              > Okay. I'm sorry. I was skipping too
              > much in your post. I think people
              > make a mistake when they think they can detach themselves from
              their
              > feelings. You're
              > feelings are with you 24 hours a day. You're never "detached" from
              > them. You just may not
              > have your attention on them. Of course there's always conflict when
              > you try to push
              > something that's part of the central part of you away. What's
              > important is your survival. If
              > your worrying about something is threatening your survival you've
              got
              > to do something
              > about it. It depends on what it is and what your commitments are
              out
              > beyond the point
              > that's bothering you. Do we pay for being uncompassionate? I don't
              > think there's any
              > question that we somehow "pay" if we are uncompassionate -
              > repeatedly, that is. Anyone
              > can make a mistake or miss an opportunity. I wouldn't say that's
              the
              > same thing, or put it
              > in the same category. Responsibility? You say: "If we love someone,
              > don't we have
              > responsibility for their well-being as well?" No. Your child, or
              > children, yes. Your husband?
              > - maybe. You see, there's a difference. What you're talking about
              is
              > relationships. Love in
              > relationships. You make your decisions about that and how much your
              > commitment will
              > be, how far it will go. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make a smart
              > remark. I'm just making a
              > point. I think children are responsibilities and obligations we
              have
              > to live up to the best we
              > can, and circumstances sometimes interfere with that. But
              > nevertheless that, is that, and
              > everything else is about choice. No one could tell me how much to
              > love my wife, for
              > instance. That was entirely a matter of my choice. And I wouldn't
              > have had it any other
              > way.
              > Love in relationships. Everything
              is a
              > relationship, eh? You talk about
              > love and caring. I think it's important to distinguish between love
              > and compassion. I don't
              > believe they're the same. I believe they each have different
              demands
              > and different
              > requirements. I believe it's important to practice both constantly
              > and continuously, but to
              > be cautious, or careful not to mix the two up.
              > And finally, you ask: "how can we
              > become advanced in consciousness
              > if we detach from love and caring?" I don't think we can. I think
              if
              > we do that, we become
              > retarded and compassion goes out the window.
              > I don't know if what I've said
              here
              > has been at all helpful. It's a bit
              > late, I'm a bit tired, and it's the best I can do at the moment. I
              > don't think there's anything
              > you don't understand. "Detachment" I think is what confuses
              everyone.
              > It only just really
              > means "objectivity". We're objective at times, subjective at times,
              > and a range of other
              > things as well. It's the putting a premium on one thing or another
              or
              > on one thing over the
              > other that some people do, that (I think) just shows they don't
              > understand what they're
              > saying. We have to try to be complete. That means have a full range
              > of feelings and do the
              > best we can with them. That' s all we can ask of ourselves, what
              more
              > is possible after all?
              >
              > Best wishes,
              > Leigh
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
              > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
              > > Hi, All!
              > >
              > > Did any of you feel confused about the teachings of
              Unconditional
              > > Love and its application while a member of Eckankar? To me,
              there
              > > seemed to be confusion and also conflict with what was being
              taught
              > > in this regard.
              > >
              > > Recently, my husband was talking to an Eckist friend whose
              elderly
              > > father is now in a nursing home and not doing very well. She was
              > > commenting about how she was never close to her father and how
              he
              > > seemed to distance himself from the family get-togethers by
              going
              > > off to watch TV while the rest of the family visited with one
              > > another. So it seems that she is detaching herself from her
              > > emotional feelings for her father. She also mentioned how her
              > > elderly mother drives herself to the nursing home on a regular
              > basis
              > > to visit her husband. This Eckist mentioned how dangerous it is
              > when
              > > driving out of the nursing home parking lot because of the heavy
              > and
              > > fast moving traffic. She said that she always turns right because
              > it
              > > is too dangerous to try to make a left turn. However, her
              elderly
              > > mother turns left and has had close calls--actually, she has
              gotten
              > > her car clipped. The Eckist has tried to tell her mother not to
              > turn
              > > left, but she continues to make the left turns. The Eckist feels
              > > that oh, well, it will be her mother's karma as well as the
              others'
              > > who might be involved in a potential accident. So it is not
              > > bothering her that much that her mother is doing something so
              > > dangerous on nearly daily basis.
              > >
              > > It seems that to detach oneself from these feelings creates
              > internal
              > > conflict. Can one really detach so easily from our feelings for
              > > those we have been and are close to? Is it normal to do this?
              What
              > > does one pay in the long run for being so "unloving" by
              distancing
              > > ourselves from these feelings of love and concern for others?
              And
              > > what about responsibility? If we love someone, don't we have
              > > responsibility for their well-being as well?
              > >
              > > What is unconditional love? And how can we become advanced in
              > > consciousness if we detach from love and caring?
              > >
              > > I just never understood this in eck discussion groups and
              writings.
              > > It never made sense to me.
              > >
              > > Mish
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