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karma

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  • christel_heine2003
    Hello, always it is good to read here and to find all doubts and scepticims in my ekult-time. Sometimes then I saw myself total nutty because nobody else could
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 12, 2006
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      Hello,
      always it is good to read here and to find all doubts and scepticims
      in my ekult-time. Sometimes then I saw myself total nutty because
      nobody else could understand what was the problem to me and I got
      doubts of myself!
      So also about karma. In ekult karma only is bad, but in the eastern
      thinking, we produce also good karma. In ekult all good we do is 'the
      Mahanta' within us, 'Thank you, Mahanta'. Only the bad doing is my
      action? I never could believe, that the good I do is the merit of the
      LEM, Mahanta!!
      Another point:
      Is someone knowing about orders or instructions to HI's by the LEM to
      treat friends who has left ekult? I couldn't understand, since I've
      left e, my longstanding friend for years before I got eckist, has
      changed so much in her relation to me.
      If possible, thanks for responds Christel
    • mishmisha9
      ... EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, christel_heine2003 wrote: Hello, always it is good to read here and to find all doubts
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 12, 2006
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        --- In
        EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "christel_heine2003"
        <Christel-Heine@...> wrote:

        Hello,
        always it is good to read here and to find all doubts and scepticims
        in my ekult-time. Sometimes then I saw myself total nutty because
        nobody else could understand what was the problem to me and I got
        doubts of myself!
        So also about karma. In ekult karma only is bad, but in the eastern
        thinking, we produce also good karma. In ekult all good we do
        is 'the Mahanta' within us, 'Thank you, Mahanta'. Only the bad doing
        is my action? I never could believe, that the good I do is the merit
        of the LEM, Mahanta!!
        Another point:Is someone knowing about orders or instructions to
        HI's by the LEM to treat friends who has left ekult? I couldn't
        understand, since I've left e, my longstanding friend for years
        before I got eckist, has changed so much in her relation to me.
        If possible, thanks for responds Christel
        >

        ****************************************************

        Hi, Christel!

        I agree about there being both good and bad karma, and actually
        there is a need to experience both, although I do prefer the good
        more! : )

        As to what orders and instructions may be given to H.I.'s by the LEM
        on how to treat those of us who have dropped out, I don't know.
        Perhaps, some others can shed some light on your question.
        However, since dropping out of e-cult, I have maintained some
        friendships with some eckists while others have fallen by the
        wayside. We really didn't have much of an association except for e-
        cult, so I find this a normal response to my leaving. But I did have
        a couple of "good" eck friends, who after trying to maintain a
        friendly relationship, said they could no longer handle being around
        me, and said goodbye. It was at least honest, and I'm okay with that
        as well.
        The interesting thing, though, that while being a lower initiate in
        e-cult I had my fair share of being shunned and ignored by H.I.s. I
        was told that I wasn't spiritually evolved enough and some H.I.s
        feared that lower initiates such as myself would bring down their
        higher vibrations--they could not and would not associate with those
        members who were not H.I.s--really delusional arrogance! I wonder
        what those H.I.s would do for a person in an emergency? Oh, I know
        it's that karma thing, so don't interfere, right! LOL!

        Mish

        P.S. Freefrom, thanks for the message! I like you too! : )
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Christel, Karma is a strange thing. Yes, there is good and bad and yet the bad can be seen as good because it benefits Soul (eventually) and yet good
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 12, 2006
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          Hi Christel,
          Karma is a strange thing. Yes, there is "good" and "bad" and yet the
          bad can be seen as good because it benefits Soul (eventually) and
          yet good can be seen as bad because it, is said, to hold Soul back
          from attaining final freedom. It was also once said that most
          Eckists were financially poor because they spent most of
          their "good" karma to find Eckankar! LOL!

          As far as any "official" directives involving treatment of former
          Eckists there are policies in place, BUT these are monitored by the
          RESAs [and by the secret "special security" service of former
          resas]. Generally Eckists just read "between-the-lines" or take
          clues from the negativity that is expressed both directly and
          indirectly by Klemp. Also, any true Eckist will know the Eck dogma
          well enough to understand that Eckists, and especially High
          Initiates, are superior to other Souls. A 2nd Initiate does not have
          to reincarnate again and 6th Initiates (or higher) are established
          on (at least) the Soul Plane (according to dogma). Of course, these
          superior attitudes are nothing new if people would just look around
          at other religions and cults and to remember world and national
          history!

          However, Klemp seems to contradict the dogma established by
          Twitchell by saying that initiations, too, can be won or lost daily.
          I always read (and thought) that it was "consciousness" that could
          be won or lost daily, or from moment to moment! The (phoney)
          initiations should remain in place due to the protection and
          guidance of the Mahanta for his chelas. BUT, we now see that Klemp
          has reneged on this too! Yes, he's not much of a Mahanta! Then
          again, where was HK's Virgin Birth! And yet, he claims to be greater
          than Jesus! LOL!

          Prometheus
          p.s. I too have to say THANKS to Freefrom and that "I like all of
          you" as well!



          mishmisha wrote:

          Christel wrote:
          Hello,
          always it is good to read here and to find all doubts and scepticims
          in my ekult-time. Sometimes then I saw myself total nutty because
          nobody else could understand what was the problem to me and I got
          doubts of myself!

          So also about karma. In ekult karma only is bad, but in the eastern
          thinking, we produce also good karma. In ekult all good we do
          is 'the Mahanta' within us, 'Thank you, Mahanta'. Only the bad doing
          is my action? I never could believe, that the good I do is the merit
          of the LEM, Mahanta!!

          Another point:Is someone knowing about orders or instructions to
          HI's by the LEM to treat friends who has left ekult? I couldn't
          understand, since I've left e, my longstanding friend for years
          before I got eckist, has changed so much in her relation to me.
          If possible, thanks for responds Christel


          ****************************************************

          Hi, Christel!

          I agree about there being both good and bad karma, and actually
          there is a need to experience both, although I do prefer the good
          more! : )

          As to what orders and instructions may be given to H.I.'s by the LEM
          on how to treat those of us who have dropped out, I don't know.
          Perhaps, some others can shed some light on your question.
          However, since dropping out of e-cult, I have maintained some
          friendships with some eckists while others have fallen by the
          wayside. We really didn't have much of an association except for e-
          cult, so I find this a normal response to my leaving. But I did have
          a couple of "good" eck friends, who after trying to maintain a
          friendly relationship, said they could no longer handle being around
          me, and said goodbye. It was at least honest, and I'm okay with that
          as well.

          The interesting thing, though, that while being a lower initiate in
          e-cult I had my fair share of being shunned and ignored by H.I.s. I
          was told that I wasn't spiritually evolved enough and some H.I.s
          feared that lower initiates such as myself would bring down their
          higher vibrations--they could not and would not associate with those
          members who were not H.I.s--really delusional arrogance! I wonder
          what those H.I.s would do for a person in an emergency? Oh, I know
          it's that karma thing, so don't interfere, right! LOL!

          Mish

          P.S. Freefrom, thanks for the message! I like you too! : )
        • Ed Kusi
          Hi Christel, With the Karma thing, I m of the same opinion as Liz. That we all come here to follow a program of growth and experiences which we agreed to and
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 15, 2006
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            Hi Christel,
            With the Karma thing, I'm of the same opinion as Liz. That we all come here to follow a program of growth and experiences which we agreed to and actually designed ourselves before we incarnated. This is why each individual is unique and go through their own unique experiences.
            With how Eckists treat us former Eckists, I think it is the fear of losing their credibility with the cult if they are seen to be associating with us so-called 'Kal agents.' I have lost a couple of very good friends because I left the cult. Its a matter of 'if they are not for us, then they are against us.'  Also they believe in the crap of being the 'chosen people' some kind of 'spiritual elite' who must not associate themselves with us spiritual 'hoi poloi' or renegades. If only they knew how pathetically deluded they are with their phoney little godman.
             
            Ed

            christel_heine2003 <Christel-Heine@...> wrote:
            Hello,
            always it is good to read here and to find all doubts and scepticims
            in my ekult-time. Sometimes then I saw myself total nutty because
            nobody else could understand what was the problem to me and I got
            doubts of myself!
            So also about karma. In ekult karma only is bad, but in the eastern
            thinking, we produce also good karma. In ekult all good we do is 'the
            Mahanta' within us, 'Thank you, Mahanta'. Only the bad doing is my
            action? I never could believe, that the good I do is the merit of the
            LEM, Mahanta!!
            Another point:
            Is someone knowing about orders or instructions to HI's by the LEM to
            treat friends who has left ekult? I couldn't understand, since I've
            left e, my longstanding friend for years before I got eckist, has
            changed so much in her relation to me.
            If possible, thanks for responds Christel





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          • prometheus_973
            Hi All, Yes, Eckists are both fearful and arrogant and Not very open, tolerant, or forgiving. There is No Unconditional love for most Eckists... it is all
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 15, 2006
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              Hi All,
              Yes, Eckists are both fearful and arrogant and Not very open,
              tolerant, or forgiving. There is No Unconditional love for most
              Eckists... it is all conditional and limiting when involving former
              Eckists. Eckists are concerned with what higher
              positioned "settlers" will think. They want to show that they can be
              trusted, BUT this all comes back to those future Initiations that
              they are fearful of Not receiving.

              Everything in Eckankar is tied to the (1) initiations and (2)
              positions of power and (3) notoriety. Most Eckists would be more
              than happy to end up with a 7th initiation and to be an ESA. Others
              want also to be a RESA! Some Eckists seek attention as a means for
              power and want to be speakers at major and regional seminars. Other
              Eckists want to be authors or at least have their stories mentioned
              on stage (and in print) by Klemp or in an Eck publication. All of
              these "things" are supposed to show Eckists and others (HK too) that
              they are spiritually advanced! This is their "spiritual" currency.

              It's a real bonus for an Eckist to recieve an 8th or 9th initiation
              or for a female (Joan) to reach the Co-LEM (12th) initiation status.
              The Catch-22 is that Klemp can decree that any Eckist has lost their
              state of consciousness (and rank) at any given time, and for any
              reason including conduct or speech. And, an Eckist can especially be
              demoted or placed back (three years each incident) on the initiation
              list if one stops paying their annual membership donation!

              On another note, for some reason (as an Eckist) I never thought it
              strange that a 12th (Klemp, or anyone) could demote a 14th (Gross)!?

              [IMO]: The Karma that Eckists (and others) experience is directly
              tied into the "ego." The more fear that one realizes requires more
              compensation by either numbing or distracting the ego (through
              drugs, sex, possesions, etc.) or by strengthing the ego. Delusion,
              rationalizing, and tunnel vision increases as the ego realizes fear
              and the flaws & weaknesses of the reality that "self" has created,
              OR as it realizes the real "physical" threats to its limited
              existance (life). The thoughts, feelings, and actions produced by
              fear (and a lack of love and empathy) also produces Karma.
              When "Soul" can see the total reality and purpose of life and can
              balance the fun and love and "dharma" with the pain and loss (which
              includes one's own death of the body) then one begins to see without
              the clouded vision of ego. "Reality" then takes a shift into areas
              of attentiveness that encompass "inner" and "outer" insights and a
              blending of understanding.

              Anyway, that's my take on it at this time. I hope everyone has a
              great Easter weekend!

              Prometheus



              pretujari wrote:

              Hi Christel,
              With the Karma thing, I'm of the same opinion as Liz. That we all
              come here to follow a program of growth and experiences which we
              agreed to and actually designed ourselves before we incarnated. This
              is why each individual is unique and go through their own unique
              experiences.
              With how Eckists treat us former Eckists, I think it is the fear
              of losing their credibility with the cult if they are seen to be
              associating with us so-called 'Kal agents.' I have lost a couple of
              very good friends because I left the cult. Its a matter of 'if they
              are not for us, then they are against us.' Also they believe in the
              crap of being the 'chosen people' some kind of 'spiritual elite' who
              must not associate themselves with us spiritual 'hoi poloi' or
              renegades. If only they knew how pathetically deluded they are with
              their phoney little godman.

              Ed

              Christel-Heine wrote:
              Hello,
              always it is good to read here and to find all doubts and scepticims
              in my ekult-time. Sometimes then I saw myself total nutty because
              nobody else could understand what was the problem to me and I got
              doubts of myself!

              So also about karma. In ekult karma only is bad, but in the eastern
              thinking, we produce also good karma. In ekult all good we do
              is 'the Mahanta' within us, 'Thank you, Mahanta'. Only the bad doing
              is my action? I never could believe, that the good I do is the merit
              of the LEM, Mahanta!!

              Another point:
              Is someone knowing about orders or instructions to HI's by the LEM
              to treat friends who has left ekult? I couldn't understand, since
              I've left e, my longstanding friend for years before I got eckist,
              has changed so much in her relation to me. If possible, thanks for
              responds

              Christel






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            • christel_heine2003
              thanks all for reply. yes, i also see karma as you say. but in e-kult, it seem s to me otherwise. i agree with you, that ekists if they are co-worker with the
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 15, 2006
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                thanks all for reply.

                yes, i also see karma as you say. but in e-kult, it seem's to me
                otherwise.
                i agree with you, that ekists if they are co-worker with the mahanta,
                HIs but also the other, they must consent with his opinion. so it's
                difficult for them, to meet people 'spitting in the face of god'
                a.s.o. i think, we ex must give them love and release them.

                i remember, that the blue light in contemplation is connected with the
                brain's condition, released through the brain-waves etc. therefore in
                all kinds of contemplation and meditation, the blue light could
                appear. in zen: there to stop is not good, because it's only brain's
                action. better, let it and go further.
                sorry, perhaps i have red it in writings of Thich Nhat Hanh?

                christel
              • mishmisha9
                Hello, Christel and All! Christel has made a good point about giving love to eckists and releasing them from their failure or refusal to look at the truths
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 15, 2006
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                  Hello, Christel and All!

                  Christel has made a good point about giving love to eckists and
                  releasing them from their failure or refusal to look at the truths
                  about the scam and false teachings inherent in the eckankar cult. It
                  is their choice for sure to keep the status quo and to continue to
                  believe what they choose to believe. I was viewing some photos of
                  some eckists who recently gathered at a big eck event. They looked
                  very happy. However, I wonder just how happy they really are--of
                  course, it is part of the delusion, these eck "social" gatherings. I
                  guess igorance is bliss for them! I remember how I felt at times
                  when eckankar interfered with holidays by scheduling events and
                  activities so eckists could be together, adoring the mahanta and
                  continuing in brain-washed delusion, instead of spending time with
                  our "real" family and friends. I really resented this at times!

                  In the meantime, this site's basic focus is to put the truth about
                  eckankar out there for those seekers who have doubts and questions.
                  Our stories and thoughts will certainly continue to help these
                  individuals.

                  I still maintain friendships with some eckist friends, but I have to
                  admit that it is rather an odd situation. Without the eck
                  connection, there is not all that much in common. They would not
                  like to hear what I have to say about the teachings, while I find it
                  difficult to enjoy their detached and delusional views of how the
                  world works. I have a hard time with this, but I try to revert back
                  to some passiveness in order not to upset them. It would be really
                  humorous to know what they are thinking about me as we converse in a
                  shallow manner--since one can't be honest about spiritual beliefs
                  and appear loving at the same time!

                  But it's okay, and if my eck friends will judge me at some time
                  as "spitting in the face of god," that might just be the sort of
                  release that might get them thinking! : )


                  Mish

                  --- In
                  EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "christel_heine2003"
                  <Christel-Heine@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > thanks all for reply.
                  >
                  > yes, i also see karma as you say. but in e-kult, it seem's to me
                  > otherwise.
                  > i agree with you, that ekists if they are co-worker with the
                  mahanta,
                  > HIs but also the other, they must consent with his opinion. so
                  it's
                  > difficult for them, to meet people 'spitting in the face of god'
                  > a.s.o. i think, we ex must give them love and release them.
                  >
                  > i remember, that the blue light in contemplation is connected with
                  the
                  > brain's condition, released through the brain-waves etc. therefore
                  in
                  > all kinds of contemplation and meditation, the blue light could
                  > appear. in zen: there to stop is not good, because it's only
                  brain's
                  > action. better, let it and go further.
                  > sorry, perhaps i have red it in writings of Thich Nhat Hanh?
                  >
                  > christel
                  >
                • Diana Stanley
                  I do nt believe in Karma! diana
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 7, 2012
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                    I do'nt believe in Karma!
                    diana
                  • prometheus_973
                    The jury is still out for me. Now, as far as all of those different types of karma that s different.... it s even more difficult to see or buy into since
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 10, 2012
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                      The jury is still out for
                      me. Now, as far as all of
                      those different types of
                      karma that's different....
                      it's even more difficult
                      to see or buy into since
                      experts, like Twit and Klemp,
                      are mostly conmen. However,
                      buying into the cause and
                      effect of daily karma is
                      more believable and is
                      something people can
                      see or at least understand
                      at times. At other times
                      it doesn't equate.

                      Basically, we're born,
                      we live, we die. All matter
                      decomposes and changes
                      its form within a set time
                      frame. But, these experiences
                      and memories of days,
                      months, and years are
                      all tied together in a
                      continuous Now because,
                      in reality, time is an illusion.

                      The how and why of our
                      lives sometimes seems
                      within our awareness and
                      control, to a degree, but
                      mostly it's a crap shoot
                      that relies upon the fate
                      of our path via our conscious
                      and unconscious decisions.
                      Our choices and attitudes
                      either help or hinder us
                      (delay us) in achieving
                      what we desire most, IMO,
                      happiness and contentment
                      and some knowledge of
                      the "How" and "Why."

                      With most people, however,
                      we've rationalized and deluded
                      ourselves to believe what we
                      and others have come to conveniently
                      think, sell, or believe and have
                      been convinced of what we need
                      and desire.

                      Prometheus

                      "Diana Stanley" wrote:
                      >
                      > I do'nt believe in Karma!
                      > diana
                      >
                    • harrisonferrel
                      Like so many other ideas, Karma doesn t hold water and seems to be a bastardized explanation of the way life works. It seems to have its origins in mythology
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 11, 2012
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                        Like so many other ideas, Karma doesn't hold water and seems to be a bastardized explanation of the way life works. It seems to have its origins in mythology and you'd need to read Joseph Campbell for an informed and intelligent look at the idea.

                        Of course, Eckankar, as a notorious bullshit organization, goes to town with the karma idea. It's just another in a series of things people can latch onto by believing that their own mental impressions and fantasies have root in reality.

                        I was recently watching a documentary on the Buddha for the third time. Curiously, Siddharta had an epiphany that life/nature goes through a cycle of being born, living, experiencing old age then decline, then at last dying. In the world of nature, rebirth is the next round of life that appears. This in no way suggests it's the same "soul" that reappears, but rather it's the way life works, in a cycle. And Siddharta realized that he was part of this cycle and there was no reason to keep trying to escape it. Instead he realized it's important to embrace life and these realities. All else is self-deceit. The illusion is that life and all of its problems has a basis in longevity and real importance. To paraphrase the Dalai Llama, being illusory doesn't mean it's not real, but rather its importance is illusory.

                        Eckankar is all about manipulation of people, facts and world teachings. If Harold, Twitch or any of the other Disney characters had an conscience, they would be ashamed of what they do to people in the way of this manipulation.

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > The jury is still out for
                        > me. Now, as far as all of
                        > those different types of
                        > karma that's different....
                        > it's even more difficult
                        > to see or buy into since
                        > experts, like Twit and Klemp,
                        > are mostly conmen. However,
                        > buying into the cause and
                        > effect of daily karma is
                        > more believable and is
                        > something people can
                        > see or at least understand
                        > at times. At other times
                        > it doesn't equate.
                        >
                        > Basically, we're born,
                        > we live, we die. All matter
                        > decomposes and changes
                        > its form within a set time
                        > frame. But, these experiences
                        > and memories of days,
                        > months, and years are
                        > all tied together in a
                        > continuous Now because,
                        > in reality, time is an illusion.
                        >
                        > The how and why of our
                        > lives sometimes seems
                        > within our awareness and
                        > control, to a degree, but
                        > mostly it's a crap shoot
                        > that relies upon the fate
                        > of our path via our conscious
                        > and unconscious decisions.
                        > Our choices and attitudes
                        > either help or hinder us
                        > (delay us) in achieving
                        > what we desire most, IMO,
                        > happiness and contentment
                        > and some knowledge of
                        > the "How" and "Why."
                        >
                        > With most people, however,
                        > we've rationalized and deluded
                        > ourselves to believe what we
                        > and others have come to conveniently
                        > think, sell, or believe and have
                        > been convinced of what we need
                        > and desire.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > "Diana Stanley" wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I do'nt believe in Karma!
                        > > diana
                        > >
                        >
                      • Janice Pfeiffer
                        There has to be a reason why some of us are sensitive to the sufferings of others and some aren t.  There has to be a reason why some of us have a conscience
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 12, 2012
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                          There has to be a reason why some of us are sensitive to the sufferings of others and some aren't.  There has to be a reason why some of us have a conscience about how we treat others and some don't.  Karma could explain that.  It could be that sensitivity to what is considered wrong doing comes about when we have experienced wrong doing from both sides and inwardly feel the wrongness of being hurtful toward others.  The concept of karma depends on the concept of reincarnation.
                           
                          I had reason to believe in past lives before I was ever an eckist.  I guess I expected eckankar to be of assistance in delving into problems I might have that stemmed from past lives.  It wasn't.  Eckankar consumes an individual with eck duties to the point that further growth past what one has attained pre eckankar just doesn't happen.  For all their talk of spiritual freedom, it is really spiritual enslavement to the point that one is made to feel you will never ever be rid of the lem even in future lives.  If anything eckankar results in arrested spiritual growth. 
                           
                          I can not speak really about the merits surrounding the concept of karma in depth.  But I  have to believe that our purpose for rebirth has reason.  I tend to think that it is more a matter of learning than retribution for past wrongs.  At the same time, I believe that Klemp and his predecessors are creating a great wrong by misleading so many people and side tracking so many spiritually.  It certainly must be something that has to be corrected since they are knowingly using the time and resources of others for their on self gratification. 
                           
                          After what I experienced in eckankar, I only have one true wish concerning such things.  That being; may I never think I am the master of any people or individual.  I believe it is the gravest wrong of all.

                          --- On Wed, 7/11/12, harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...> wrote:

                          From: harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...>
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: karma
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2012, 11:05 PM

                           
                          Like so many other ideas, Karma doesn't hold water and seems to be a bastardized explanation of the way life works. It seems to have its origins in mythology and you'd need to read Joseph Campbell for an informed and intelligent look at the idea.

                          Of course, Eckankar, as a notorious bullshit organization, goes to town with the karma idea. It's just another in a series of things people can latch onto by believing that their own mental impressions and fantasies have root in reality.

                          I was recently watching a documentary on the Buddha for the third time. Curiously, Siddharta had an epiphany that life/nature goes through a cycle of being born, living, experiencing old age then decline, then at last dying. In the world of nature, rebirth is the next round of life that appears. This in no way suggests it's the same "soul" that reappears, but rather it's the way life works, in a cycle. And Siddharta realized that he was part of this cycle and there was no reason to keep trying to escape it. Instead he realized it's important to embrace life and these realities. All else is self-deceit. The illusion is that life and all of its problems has a basis in longevity and real importance. To paraphrase the Dalai Llama, being illusory doesn't mean it's not real, but rather its importance is illusory.

                          Eckankar is all about manipulation of people, facts and world teachings. If Harold, Twitch or any of the other Disney characters had an conscience, they would be ashamed of what they do to people in the way of this manipulation.

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > The jury is still out for
                          > me. Now, as far as all of
                          > those different types of
                          > karma that's different....
                          > it's even more difficult
                          > to see or buy into since
                          > experts, like Twit and Klemp,
                          > are mostly conmen. However,
                          > buying into the cause and
                          > effect of daily karma is
                          > more believable and is
                          > something people can
                          > see or at least understand
                          > at times. At other times
                          > it doesn't equate.
                          >
                          > Basically, we're born,
                          > we live, we die. All matter
                          > decomposes and changes
                          > its form within a set time
                          > frame. But, these experiences
                          > and memories of days,
                          > months, and years are
                          > all tied together in a
                          > continuous Now because,
                          > in reality, time is an illusion.
                          >
                          > The how and why of our
                          > lives sometimes seems
                          > within our awareness and
                          > control, to a degree, but
                          > mostly it's a crap shoot
                          > that relies upon the fate
                          > of our path via our conscious
                          > and unconscious decisions.
                          > Our choices and attitudes
                          > either help or hinder us
                          > (delay us) in achieving
                          > what we desire most, IMO,
                          > happiness and contentment
                          > and some knowledge of
                          > the "How" and "Why."
                          >
                          > With most people, however,
                          > we've rationalized and deluded
                          > ourselves to believe what we
                          > and others have come to conveniently
                          > think, sell, or believe and have
                          > been convinced of what we need
                          > and desire.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > "Diana Stanley" wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I do'nt believe in Karma!
                          > > diana
                          > >
                          >

                        • Diana Stanley
                          I belive our bodies and the mindstuff can be recyled and use to create a new form for Spirit to utalize but our personality is not reincarnated The personality
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 13, 2012
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                            I belive our bodies and the mindstuff can be recyled and use to create a new form for Spirit to utalize but our personality is not reincarnated The personality is created by our personal experience in this life. It doesn't cross over to another life. A new personality is created every time Spitit asumes a physical form. Diana


                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > The jury is still out for
                            > me. Now, as far as all of
                            > those different types of
                            > karma that's different....
                            > it's even more difficult
                            > to see or buy into since
                            > experts, like Twit and Klemp,
                            > are mostly conmen. However,
                            > buying into the cause and
                            > effect of daily karma is
                            > more believable and is
                            > something people can
                            > see or at least understand
                            > at times. At other times
                            > it doesn't equate.
                            >
                            > Basically, we're born,
                            > we live, we die. All matter
                            > decomposes and changes
                            > its form within a set time
                            > frame. But, these experiences
                            > and memories of days,
                            > months, and years are
                            > all tied together in a
                            > continuous Now because,
                            > in reality, time is an illusion.
                            >
                            > The how and why of our
                            > lives sometimes seems
                            > within our awareness and
                            > control, to a degree, but
                            > mostly it's a crap shoot
                            > that relies upon the fate
                            > of our path via our conscious
                            > and unconscious decisions.
                            > Our choices and attitudes
                            > either help or hinder us
                            > (delay us) in achieving
                            > what we desire most, IMO,
                            > happiness and contentment
                            > and some knowledge of
                            > the "How" and "Why."
                            >
                            > With most people, however,
                            > we've rationalized and deluded
                            > ourselves to believe what we
                            > and others have come to conveniently
                            > think, sell, or believe and have
                            > been convinced of what we need
                            > and desire.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            > "Diana Stanley" wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I do'nt believe in Karma!
                            > > diana
                            > >
                            >
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello Diana, That s interesting. IMO we all have ancestral DNA that brings forth choices that help or hinder with our spiritual evolution and this is how our
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jul 14, 2012
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                              Hello Diana,
                              That's interesting. IMO we all
                              have ancestral DNA that brings
                              forth choices that help or hinder
                              with our "spiritual" evolution
                              and this is how our bodies and
                              mindstuff are recreated. I'm
                              thinking that some DNA associated
                              with personality is also passed
                              on. Plus, the nurture aspect is
                              where and how portions of the
                              personality are newly formed
                              and where heretical portions
                              are stimulated. Thus, when we
                              see a person who has a personality
                              completely different from close
                              family members it could be that
                              this is simply a multi-generational
                              jump. Of course there are also
                              physical defects and changes
                              due to environmental issues,
                              etc. that will affect us as well.
                              Whether this could be called
                              karma might be too simple and
                              passive of an explanation that
                              prevents more investigation,
                              involvement and solutions.

                              The thing is, the mind can be
                              extremely powerful but all of
                              us never even come close to the
                              potential. Even Hawkings and
                              Einstein only use(d) about 11%
                              of the brain's potential.

                              It does make one wonder about
                              "consciousness." Is the intellect
                              associated with consciousness
                              in some way? Perhaps and to
                              a degree, however, I'm sure that
                              we know of selfish or cruel people
                              who have/had great intellects.
                              So, what went wrong? Is this
                              a learned or physical defect
                              or a choice, or both? The mind
                              is powerful and can rationalize,
                              dream, imagine, pretend, can
                              become fearful, can become
                              jealous, hateful, and is easily
                              distracted from a higher potential
                              i.e. Self-Mastery, Self-Responsibility
                              and Spiritual Freedom. Although,
                              what these terms actually mean
                              is for one to become their own
                              Master via their own private
                              "religion" with values, partially,
                              gleaned from the insights of
                              others versus others subjective
                              experiences. Life is a journey
                              of rediscovering daily balance
                              and meaning that encompasses
                              a lifetime.

                              Spirit and Soul are another
                              matter. Maybe Soul is actually
                              like being "plugged into" the
                              Universal Mind (all minds)
                              and generally by limitations
                              like phone wire is to wireless
                              or fiberoptic. But, is Spirit merely
                              the Universal Mind's potential?

                              And GOD? Maybe that's the
                              original source which caused
                              and determined our human
                              split from that of other animals?
                            • Janice Pfeiffer
                              Well written Prometheus, thank you for your insights ... From: prometheus_973 Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: karma To:
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jul 14, 2012
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                                Well written Prometheus, thank you for your insights

                                --- On Sat, 7/14/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: karma
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Saturday, July 14, 2012, 6:39 PM

                                 
                                Hello Diana,
                                That's interesting. IMO we all
                                have ancestral DNA that brings
                                forth choices that help or hinder
                                with our "spiritual" evolution
                                and this is how our bodies and
                                mindstuff are recreated. I'm
                                thinking that some DNA associated
                                with personality is also passed
                                on. Plus, the nurture aspect is
                                where and how portions of the
                                personality are newly formed
                                and where heretical portions
                                are stimulated. Thus, when we
                                see a person who has a personality
                                completely different from close
                                family members it could be that
                                this is simply a multi-generational
                                jump. Of course there are also
                                physical defects and changes
                                due to environmental issues,
                                etc. that will affect us as well.
                                Whether this could be called
                                karma might be too simple and
                                passive of an explanation that
                                prevents more investigation,
                                involvement and solutions.

                                The thing is, the mind can be
                                extremely powerful but all of
                                us never even come close to the
                                potential. Even Hawkings and
                                Einstein only use(d) about 11%
                                of the brain's potential.

                                It does make one wonder about
                                "consciousness." Is the intellect
                                associated with consciousness
                                in some way? Perhaps and to
                                a degree, however, I'm sure that
                                we know of selfish or cruel people
                                who have/had great intellects.
                                So, what went wrong? Is this
                                a learned or physical defect
                                or a choice, or both? The mind
                                is powerful and can rationalize,
                                dream, imagine, pretend, can
                                become fearful, can become
                                jealous, hateful, and is easily
                                distracted from a higher potential
                                i.e. Self-Mastery, Self-Responsibility
                                and Spiritual Freedom. Although,
                                what these terms actually mean
                                is for one to become their own
                                Master via their own private
                                "religion" with values, partially,
                                gleaned from the insights of
                                others versus others subjective
                                experiences. Life is a journey
                                of rediscovering daily balance
                                and meaning that encompasses
                                a lifetime.

                                Spirit and Soul are another
                                matter. Maybe Soul is actually
                                like being "plugged into" the
                                Universal Mind (all minds)
                                and generally by limitations
                                like phone wire is to wireless
                                or fiberoptic. But, is Spirit merely
                                the Universal Mind's potential?

                                And GOD? Maybe that's the
                                original source which caused
                                and determined our human
                                split from that of other animals?

                              • prometheus_973
                                Hello Harrison, Thanks! I enjoyed reading your comments. That s an interesting paraphrase of the Dali Llama: being illusory doesn t mean it s not real, but
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jul 14, 2012
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                                  Hello Harrison,
                                  Thanks! I enjoyed reading your
                                  comments. That's an interesting
                                  paraphrase of the Dali Llama:
                                  "being illusory doesn't mean it's
                                  not real, but rather its importance
                                  is illusory.

                                  It's quite a play on words which
                                  Buddhism does in order to get
                                  people to think with depth via
                                  creative introspection.

                                  However, I don't really agree with
                                  the second part (the twist) of the
                                  statement. To me, "it's importance"
                                  is Not Always "illusionary" due to
                                  the illusion's powerful mental
                                  potential to manifest and become
                                  "real" and to create circumstances
                                  that would end our physical existence
                                  or well being. For me, passiveness
                                  is self-deceit and non-attachment
                                  is simply a coping/survival technique
                                  (stress reducer) designed for the
                                  mind.

                                  However, various natural stress
                                  reducers do have the potential
                                  to alter our perspectives and to
                                  give us real insights into our individual
                                  Real Selves and that of this Real
                                  Life Experience and Purpose.

                                  Maybe, we are simply taking another
                                  step for the future development,
                                  or decline, of the Human Race and
                                  towards its full Mental potential.
                                  That's our part and our involvement
                                  with what we can call the Universal
                                  Mind's Potential. Perhaps, too, we
                                  are being guided, unconsciously,
                                  by this innate potential via video
                                  games and other imaginative and
                                  technological advances.

                                  Prometheus


                                  "harrisonferrel" wrote:
                                  Like so many other ideas, Karma doesn't hold water and seems to be a bastardized
                                  explanation of the way life works. It seems to have its origins in mythology and
                                  you'd need to read Joseph Campbell for an informed and intelligent look at the
                                  idea.

                                  Of course, Eckankar, as a notorious bullshit organization, goes to town with the
                                  karma idea. It's just another in a series of things people can latch onto by
                                  believing that their own mental impressions and fantasies have root in reality.

                                  I was recently watching a documentary on the Buddha for the third time.
                                  Curiously, Siddharta had an epiphany that life/nature goes through a cycle of
                                  being born, living, experiencing old age then decline, then at last dying. In
                                  the world of nature, rebirth is the next round of life that appears. This in no
                                  way suggests it's the same "soul" that reappears, but rather it's the way life
                                  works, in a cycle. And Siddharta realized that he was part of this cycle and
                                  there was no reason to keep trying to escape it. Instead he realized it's
                                  important to embrace life and these realities. All else is self-deceit. The
                                  illusion is that life and all of its problems has a basis in longevity and real
                                  importance. To paraphrase the Dalai Llama, being illusory doesn't mean it's not
                                  real, but rather its importance is illusory.

                                  Eckankar is all about manipulation of people, facts and world teachings. If
                                  Harold, Twitch or any of the other Disney characters had an conscience, they
                                  would be ashamed of what they do to people in the way of this manipulation.
                                • postekcon
                                  Karma as taught by Ekult is very skewed and not the big picture ! Should one choose to believe in karma, it maybe better understood within contexts of
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jul 25, 2012
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                                    Karma as taught by Ekult is very skewed and not the 'big picture'!
                                    Should one choose to believe in karma, it maybe better understood within contexts of 'randomity' and 'quantum' theories.

                                    For me the jury is out.
                                    -Postekcon


                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello Harrison,
                                    > Thanks! I enjoyed reading your
                                    > comments. That's an interesting
                                    > paraphrase of the Dali Llama:
                                    > "being illusory doesn't mean it's
                                    > not real, but rather its importance
                                    > is illusory.
                                    >
                                    > It's quite a play on words which
                                    > Buddhism does in order to get
                                    > people to think with depth via
                                    > creative introspection.
                                    >
                                    > However, I don't really agree with
                                    > the second part (the twist) of the
                                    > statement. To me, "it's importance"
                                    > is Not Always "illusionary" due to
                                    > the illusion's powerful mental
                                    > potential to manifest and become
                                    > "real" and to create circumstances
                                    > that would end our physical existence
                                    > or well being. For me, passiveness
                                    > is self-deceit and non-attachment
                                    > is simply a coping/survival technique
                                    > (stress reducer) designed for the
                                    > mind.
                                    >
                                    > However, various natural stress
                                    > reducers do have the potential
                                    > to alter our perspectives and to
                                    > give us real insights into our individual
                                    > Real Selves and that of this Real
                                    > Life Experience and Purpose.
                                    >
                                    > Maybe, we are simply taking another
                                    > step for the future development,
                                    > or decline, of the Human Race and
                                    > towards its full Mental potential.
                                    > That's our part and our involvement
                                    > with what we can call the Universal
                                    > Mind's Potential. Perhaps, too, we
                                    > are being guided, unconsciously,
                                    > by this innate potential via video
                                    > games and other imaginative and
                                    > technological advances.
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > "harrisonferrel" wrote:
                                    > Like so many other ideas, Karma doesn't hold water and seems to be a bastardized
                                    > explanation of the way life works. It seems to have its origins in mythology and
                                    > you'd need to read Joseph Campbell for an informed and intelligent look at the
                                    > idea.
                                    >
                                    > Of course, Eckankar, as a notorious bullshit organization, goes to town with the
                                    > karma idea. It's just another in a series of things people can latch onto by
                                    > believing that their own mental impressions and fantasies have root in reality.
                                    >
                                    > I was recently watching a documentary on the Buddha for the third time.
                                    > Curiously, Siddharta had an epiphany that life/nature goes through a cycle of
                                    > being born, living, experiencing old age then decline, then at last dying. In
                                    > the world of nature, rebirth is the next round of life that appears. This in no
                                    > way suggests it's the same "soul" that reappears, but rather it's the way life
                                    > works, in a cycle. And Siddharta realized that he was part of this cycle and
                                    > there was no reason to keep trying to escape it. Instead he realized it's
                                    > important to embrace life and these realities. All else is self-deceit. The
                                    > illusion is that life and all of its problems has a basis in longevity and real
                                    > importance. To paraphrase the Dalai Llama, being illusory doesn't mean it's not
                                    > real, but rather its importance is illusory.
                                    >
                                    > Eckankar is all about manipulation of people, facts and world teachings. If
                                    > Harold, Twitch or any of the other Disney characters had an conscience, they
                                    > would be ashamed of what they do to people in the way of this manipulation.
                                    >
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