Re: Karma Questions and the LEM/Mahanta
- Hello Kaye and Mish,
I too would like to make some comments on this topic of Karma and of
what Eckankar promises via the LEM/Mahanta.
[Kaye]: One question that I struggled with in my years in ekult was
that of Karma. Ekult presented it as such an oppressive and hopeless
trap that you could not escape except through the lem/godman. I
don't know about the rest of you, but I never experienced all that
relief that was promised or implied.
[Mish]: When I joined eckankar, I had already experienced some
hardships, made it through, so really I didn't feel that there was
anything that one could not handle well enough with a certain
resolution and Grace. I didn't have anything to turn over to HK to
take care of for me!
*[Me]: When a chela reaches the 5th Initiation the promise is that
one is then free of past life Karma! There, of course, is still
daily (kriyaman karma). Actually, Klemp claims that he (the Mahanta)
will take primal, fate, and even reserve karma from the chela! This
of course is just a lot of talk and a form of mass hypnotism and
delusion. BTW, hypnotism "is considered one of the THIRTY-TWO
FACETS, or steps, on the path." [Eckankar LexiCon pg. 92]
[Kaye]: I've been doing some research on the subject and found two
excellent articles on the subject:
"What is Karma?"
"The Meaning of Karma"
[Kaye]: Karma was presented as being based on logic,(imagine that!)
the consequence of our own creation. It was not described as a THING
to punish or reward from many lifetimes past. In Buddhism there is
no one to pass judgment. Karma is thought of as a natural law
So, boys and girls,- What's with all the promises and threats? It
seems that the lem also uses karma as a tool of control. I found
numerous claims made by the lem of having the power to absorb or
intervene in the deserving member's karma. Once the second initiation
is received, the initiate doesn't have to reincarnate anymore. Karma
can be "worked off", "burned off", "speeded up" by chanting secret
words, fasts, attending seminars, the e new year, spiritual exercises
and monthly reports. There is also the claim that a member will not
have to face the Lords of Karma and be free of the Wheel of
Awagawan. And that's not all folks- members can also avoid incurring
new karma by turning everthing over to the master and e force. Quite
a sales pitch for a religion!
[Mish]: Yes, quite a sales pitch for those who are struggling in
life. They see these promises by HK as the help they have needed for
a long time. They believe life will get better with these spiritual
techniques! However, how many eckists do you know who have really
improved their lives? It seems that many maintain the status quo or
*[Me]: I always knew of the good and bad aspects of Karma and yet
looked at even the "bad" as good because it was there to teach us
lessons. Until we learn a specific spiritual lesson that same karma
will just return over and over again BUT in a different guises. This
is done (by SPIRIT), for each Soul, in order for Soul to learn it's
lessons and to eventually "see" the correlations and make changes
and evolve to a higher consciousness. Klemp does Not have the
ability to give chelas short-cuts because he cannot even handle his
own Karmic burdens! He uses his ill health as an excuse by claiming
he is taking on the Karma of his flock. Klemp is a scammer and this
is why he hides from both the public and his chelas and requires his
chelas to be searched and scanned, at major seminars, before
his "one" evening talk! A true Living Master would be physically
available for both his chelas and the public and would Not be
fearful of being harmed! How can Klemp talk about Trust when the
LEM/Mahanta cannot trust! Seminar Security, for Klemp, is Really Not
The Same As "TYING UP YOUR CAMEL!" Neither is hiding out and Not
speaking at a monthly EWS at the Temple of Eck!
[Kaye]: Once the sale is made, however, the member finds out that
the goods don't always match the claims. If the member has problems,
illness, doubts, questions, etc. then the fault is theirs or some
force that they invited into their lives. Oh yeah, and here's the
extra, extra, BONUS- the member finds out that if they leave they
are subjected to curses and crushing punishment. Not sold yet? Any
[Mish]: Well, yes, HK does blame the chela for his failure to thrive
in eckankar! To reinterate HK's statement about losers in his most
recent book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," on page 211:
"Belief in the Master's ever-present company relies upon an
individual's degree of unfoldment. Actual inner experiences help one
move to a greater understanding of the ways of divine revelation.
But if he chooses to hang on to shopworn karmic mental passion or
habit like anger, then his spiritual momentum stops. It's that
simple. Of course, a headstrong follower always tries to fix blame
on the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master when his attempts to advance
in ECK come to nothing. But such an attitude changes nothing. The
individual is a loser and will continue to be a loser until he
adopts the practices of a winner. . . . It's when he's seen that all
responsibility for his unfoldment lies with him alone."
So HK throws the responsibility back on the chela and calls him a
loser--after HK says he can take on the karma for the chela. So, HK
suckers people in and then tells them that they are responsible for
their actions and choices--this of course is true, but why can't
chelas at this point realize that the mahanta is worthless?
*[Me]: I can see why Klemp is so focused on being a "winner" because
if it wasn't for Twitchell's Eckankar scam he'd be a "loser!" This
is why he has PAID to have himself listed in the "International
Who's Who of Intellectuals, Ninth Edition." What degrees does Klemp
have? He never does say much about this and other details even in
his so called Autobiography. Oh, I know what it must be... it's all
of those "Wonderful" books that he has printed himself!
[Kaye]: Well... you could need the problems you're having for your
spiritual growth OR you are being tested by the master OR you are
being attacked by negative entities. In any case, it's YOUR fault
because you lack self-discipline OR have the wrong attitude OR are
out of balance. In that case, go back to the part about working off
karma and try again.
[Mish]: I always found it interesting in the little discussions
groups at ECK worship services how some members would tell their
hardship stories and how they turned it over to the mahanta for
help. They would indicate that this worked for them, but yet I could
see that they still look stressed and not so happy. I think they
believed their problems were being taken care of, but of course,
their faces revealed the real truth--they still had worries and
difficulties. The exception are those who have reached H.I. status
because they feel they have it made at that point--soooooooo they're
pretty happy at that point, but unfortunately, they are in the worst
position, because it is difficult to then look at the "real"
eckankar with all its lies and deceptions. Difficult for these
chelas to admit the initiations are bogus! So some are
really "hooked" for life to this scam.
*[Me]: Actually, the truth could be some of the things that Kaye has
spoken of, BUT the "tests" are something the individual Soul has to
deal with and are Not by-passed due to Klemp's intervention. Soul
doesn't need another Soul to intercede via Karma. Remember that
story about the emperor moth! Contradictions run amuck within the
Eck "teachings!" Yes, the delusion becomes greater as one reaches
the higher initiations. BUT, one really needs to buy into the E-crap
for the delusion to work. The problem is that Eckankar just doesn't
work all that well regardless of how much one tries to believe that
it's all true. This is Not the fault of the chela as Klemp would
have them think. The reason Eckankar doesn't work is because it is a
false teaching that was pieced together by a con artist and liar...
[Kaye]: Did any of this work for you? I'd love to hear your opinions
[Mish]: I had trouble buying into it, and it seemed that my body was
rejecting a lot of it. I would develop headaches and/or stomach
pains when attending eck functions. I would feel frustrated at
times. I guess I'm one of those "losers" HK wrote about! LOL! I feel
like I let my guard down when I joined the org. So, now, I am
determined to not be taken in again. This is what has worked for me--
getting out of the craziness! What I wonder about, though, is why
does HK stay his course? Is he really bad or is he actually crazy?
Maybe some of both?
I have known some chelas who believe that their poor health and
hardshps are the result of their volunteering and willingness to
take on some of the karma of others in order to lessen HK's burden!
I guess they are not "losers" but rather they have positioned
themselves on the right hand of the mahanta. They sit there joining
with him in the delusion and the scam. That is a way some will
explain their karma. So, for them, it works--and they believe that
they will be rewarded in eck heaven for their great sacrifices for
the mahanta. They feel sorry for HK! : )
*[Me]: What worked for me was what worked prior to, during, and
after Eckankar. In other words... I discovered that Eckankar was a
distraction to what was really taking place. However, this became
very noticeable only AFTER I rejected the Eck teachings! Until then
I was Not truly seeing or even seeing clearly! It was a revelation
and shift to a higher level of consciousness when seeing the truth
about the scam of Eckankar. Until Eckists, or even some former
Eckists, acknowledge the scam of Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp they
will Not truly see with clarity.
- Hello Kaye,
the karma question is a fascinating one, and I developed my own
understanding while still in Eckankar. More comments below.
--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "eyesopen444"
>*** Isn't that the good old sin/saviour trap we know so well from
> Hi everyone!
> One question that I struggled with in my years in ekult was that of
> Karma. Ekult presented it as such an oppressive and hopeless trap
> you could not escape except through the lem/godman. I don't know
> the rest of you, but I never experienced all that relief that was
> promised or implied.
catholicism? And it's true that in Eckankar, the karma thing was a
heavy one and you could only escape from it with the help of the all-
knowing and omnipresent mahanta! For myself, I had developed the
idea that karma was neutral - just action and re-action, like if you
work for a company, you get paid. One Eckist used this as an example
and it fascinated me as it took off a heavy burden from me! And for
the karma relief, that is something you had to believe - there was
no proof for that in this lifetime. And doesn't Eckankar always
claim that you can prove everything yourself? Well, they must have
forgotten the karma escape thing! LOL!
>*** Based on logic! Wow! "Mind" and "mental" are gross words in
> I've been doing some research on the subject and found two
> articles on the subject:
> "What is Karma?"
> "The Meaning of Karma"
> Karma was presented as being based on logic,(imagine that!) the
> consequence of our own creation. It was not described as a THING to
> punish or reward from many lifetimes past. In Buddhism there is no
> to pass judgment. Karma is thought of as a natural law requiring
>*** Yeah, but you have to BELIEVE that - it's not a matter of proof,
> So, boys and girls,- What's with all the promises and threats? It
> seems that the lem also uses karma as a tool of control. I found
> numerous claims made by the lem of having the power to absorb or
> intervene in the deserving member's karma. Once the second
> is received, the initiate doesn't have to reincarnate anymore.
> can be "worked off", "burned off", "speeded up" by chanting secret
> words, fasts, attending seminars, the e new year, spiritual
> and monthly reports. There is also the claim that a member will not
> have to face the Lords of Karma and be free of the Wheel of
it's a matter of FAITH! :-) How stupid to believe that just because
I write a monthly report to the lem or attend a seminar, my karma
will be "burned off"! Well, in the case of attending a seminar, I
certainly am relieved - but of money and not of karma! LOL!
> And that's not all folks- members can also avoid incurring new*** Yes they have all the answers, and you don't have to do
> by turning everthing over to the master and e force. Quite a sales
> pitch for a religion!
anything - just trust in the master! But I must admit that times
were easier when I "knew" that I belonged to the "right" religion -
catholicism when I was a child and Eckankar as an adult! I think
somebody over on ET said something similar - that life was easier or
so when he thought he had all the answers. I can relate to that very
much - but then, I wouldn't want to miss the freedom of thought I am
experiencing now, and the freedom of trial, and of experience! So, I
am happy where I am and grateful to have escaped the trap of
>*** Well, if members have problems, they are just working out karma!
> Once the sale is made, however, the member finds out that the goods
> don't always match the claims. If the member has problems, illness,
> doubts, questions, etc. than the fault is theirs or some force that
> they invited into their lives. Oh yeah, and here's the extra,
> BONUS- the member finds out that if they leave they are subjected
> curses and crushing punishment. Not sold yet? Any complaints?
>*** It's a real great sales pitch, isn't it! And it works because
> Well... you could need the problems you're having for your
> growth OR you are being tested by the master OR you are being
> by negative entities. In any case, it's YOUR fault because you lack
> self-discipline OR have the wrong attitude OR are out of balance.
> that case, go back to the part about working off karma and try
nothing can be proved - it's either/or all the time and the member
is always the loser. It's a win/win game for Eckankar!