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Re: Karma Questions and the LEM/Mahanta

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Kaye and Mish, I too would like to make some comments on this topic of Karma and of what Eckankar promises via the LEM/Mahanta. [Kaye]: One question that
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 9, 2006
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      Hello Kaye and Mish,
      I too would like to make some comments on this topic of Karma and of
      what Eckankar promises via the LEM/Mahanta.

      [Kaye]: One question that I struggled with in my years in ekult was
      that of Karma. Ekult presented it as such an oppressive and hopeless
      trap that you could not escape except through the lem/godman. I
      don't know about the rest of you, but I never experienced all that
      relief that was promised or implied.

      [Mish]: When I joined eckankar, I had already experienced some
      hardships, made it through, so really I didn't feel that there was
      anything that one could not handle well enough with a certain
      resolution and Grace. I didn't have anything to turn over to HK to
      take care of for me!

      *[Me]: When a chela reaches the 5th Initiation the promise is that
      one is then free of past life Karma! There, of course, is still
      daily (kriyaman karma). Actually, Klemp claims that he (the Mahanta)
      will take primal, fate, and even reserve karma from the chela! This
      of course is just a lot of talk and a form of mass hypnotism and
      delusion. BTW, hypnotism "is considered one of the THIRTY-TWO
      FACETS, or steps, on the path." [Eckankar LexiCon pg. 92]


      [Kaye]: I've been doing some research on the subject and found two
      excellent articles on the subject:

      "What is Karma?"
      http://www.trans4mind.com/personal_development/Spiritual/karma.htm

      and

      "The Meaning of Karma"
      http://www.arrowriver.ca/torStar/karmanote.html

      [Kaye]: Karma was presented as being based on logic,(imagine that!)
      the consequence of our own creation. It was not described as a THING
      to punish or reward from many lifetimes past. In Buddhism there is
      no one to pass judgment. Karma is thought of as a natural law
      requiring free-will.

      So, boys and girls,- What's with all the promises and threats? It
      seems that the lem also uses karma as a tool of control. I found
      numerous claims made by the lem of having the power to absorb or
      intervene in the deserving member's karma. Once the second initiation
      is received, the initiate doesn't have to reincarnate anymore. Karma
      can be "worked off", "burned off", "speeded up" by chanting secret
      words, fasts, attending seminars, the e new year, spiritual exercises
      and monthly reports. There is also the claim that a member will not
      have to face the Lords of Karma and be free of the Wheel of
      Awagawan. And that's not all folks- members can also avoid incurring
      new karma by turning everthing over to the master and e force. Quite
      a sales pitch for a religion!


      [Mish]: Yes, quite a sales pitch for those who are struggling in
      life. They see these promises by HK as the help they have needed for
      a long time. They believe life will get better with these spiritual
      techniques! However, how many eckists do you know who have really
      improved their lives? It seems that many maintain the status quo or
      even worse.

      *[Me]: I always knew of the good and bad aspects of Karma and yet
      looked at even the "bad" as good because it was there to teach us
      lessons. Until we learn a specific spiritual lesson that same karma
      will just return over and over again BUT in a different guises. This
      is done (by SPIRIT), for each Soul, in order for Soul to learn it's
      lessons and to eventually "see" the correlations and make changes
      and evolve to a higher consciousness. Klemp does Not have the
      ability to give chelas short-cuts because he cannot even handle his
      own Karmic burdens! He uses his ill health as an excuse by claiming
      he is taking on the Karma of his flock. Klemp is a scammer and this
      is why he hides from both the public and his chelas and requires his
      chelas to be searched and scanned, at major seminars, before
      his "one" evening talk! A true Living Master would be physically
      available for both his chelas and the public and would Not be
      fearful of being harmed! How can Klemp talk about Trust when the
      LEM/Mahanta cannot trust! Seminar Security, for Klemp, is Really Not
      The Same As "TYING UP YOUR CAMEL!" Neither is hiding out and Not
      speaking at a monthly EWS at the Temple of Eck!


      [Kaye]: Once the sale is made, however, the member finds out that
      the goods don't always match the claims. If the member has problems,
      illness, doubts, questions, etc. then the fault is theirs or some
      force that they invited into their lives. Oh yeah, and here's the
      extra, extra, BONUS- the member finds out that if they leave they
      are subjected to curses and crushing punishment. Not sold yet? Any
      complaints?


      [Mish]: Well, yes, HK does blame the chela for his failure to thrive
      in eckankar! To reinterate HK's statement about losers in his most
      recent book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," on page 211:

      "Belief in the Master's ever-present company relies upon an
      individual's degree of unfoldment. Actual inner experiences help one
      move to a greater understanding of the ways of divine revelation.
      But if he chooses to hang on to shopworn karmic mental passion or
      habit like anger, then his spiritual momentum stops. It's that
      simple. Of course, a headstrong follower always tries to fix blame
      on the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master when his attempts to advance
      in ECK come to nothing. But such an attitude changes nothing. The
      individual is a loser and will continue to be a loser until he
      adopts the practices of a winner. . . . It's when he's seen that all
      responsibility for his unfoldment lies with him alone."

      So HK throws the responsibility back on the chela and calls him a
      loser--after HK says he can take on the karma for the chela. So, HK
      suckers people in and then tells them that they are responsible for
      their actions and choices--this of course is true, but why can't
      chelas at this point realize that the mahanta is worthless?

      *[Me]: I can see why Klemp is so focused on being a "winner" because
      if it wasn't for Twitchell's Eckankar scam he'd be a "loser!" This
      is why he has PAID to have himself listed in the "International
      Who's Who of Intellectuals, Ninth Edition." What degrees does Klemp
      have? He never does say much about this and other details even in
      his so called Autobiography. Oh, I know what it must be... it's all
      of those "Wonderful" books that he has printed himself!


      [Kaye]: Well... you could need the problems you're having for your
      spiritual growth OR you are being tested by the master OR you are
      being attacked by negative entities. In any case, it's YOUR fault
      because you lack self-discipline OR have the wrong attitude OR are
      out of balance. In that case, go back to the part about working off
      karma and try again.


      [Mish]: I always found it interesting in the little discussions
      groups at ECK worship services how some members would tell their
      hardship stories and how they turned it over to the mahanta for
      help. They would indicate that this worked for them, but yet I could
      see that they still look stressed and not so happy. I think they
      believed their problems were being taken care of, but of course,
      their faces revealed the real truth--they still had worries and
      difficulties. The exception are those who have reached H.I. status
      because they feel they have it made at that point--soooooooo they're
      pretty happy at that point, but unfortunately, they are in the worst
      position, because it is difficult to then look at the "real"
      eckankar with all its lies and deceptions. Difficult for these
      chelas to admit the initiations are bogus! So some are
      really "hooked" for life to this scam.

      *[Me]: Actually, the truth could be some of the things that Kaye has
      spoken of, BUT the "tests" are something the individual Soul has to
      deal with and are Not by-passed due to Klemp's intervention. Soul
      doesn't need another Soul to intercede via Karma. Remember that
      story about the emperor moth! Contradictions run amuck within the
      Eck "teachings!" Yes, the delusion becomes greater as one reaches
      the higher initiations. BUT, one really needs to buy into the E-crap
      for the delusion to work. The problem is that Eckankar just doesn't
      work all that well regardless of how much one tries to believe that
      it's all true. This is Not the fault of the chela as Klemp would
      have them think. The reason Eckankar doesn't work is because it is a
      false teaching that was pieced together by a con artist and liar...
      P.T.


      [Kaye]: Did any of this work for you? I'd love to hear your opinions
      on this.



      [Mish]: I had trouble buying into it, and it seemed that my body was
      rejecting a lot of it. I would develop headaches and/or stomach
      pains when attending eck functions. I would feel frustrated at
      times. I guess I'm one of those "losers" HK wrote about! LOL! I feel
      like I let my guard down when I joined the org. So, now, I am
      determined to not be taken in again. This is what has worked for me--
      getting out of the craziness! What I wonder about, though, is why
      does HK stay his course? Is he really bad or is he actually crazy?
      Maybe some of both?

      I have known some chelas who believe that their poor health and
      hardshps are the result of their volunteering and willingness to
      take on some of the karma of others in order to lessen HK's burden!
      I guess they are not "losers" but rather they have positioned
      themselves on the right hand of the mahanta. They sit there joining
      with him in the delusion and the scam. That is a way some will
      explain their karma. So, for them, it works--and they believe that
      they will be rewarded in eck heaven for their great sacrifices for
      the mahanta. They feel sorry for HK! : )

      *[Me]: What worked for me was what worked prior to, during, and
      after Eckankar. In other words... I discovered that Eckankar was a
      distraction to what was really taking place. However, this became
      very noticeable only AFTER I rejected the Eck teachings! Until then
      I was Not truly seeing or even seeing clearly! It was a revelation
      and shift to a higher level of consciousness when seeing the truth
      about the scam of Eckankar. Until Eckists, or even some former
      Eckists, acknowledge the scam of Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp they
      will Not truly see with clarity.

      Prometheus
    • ctecvie
      Hello Kaye, the karma question is a fascinating one, and I developed my own understanding while still in Eckankar. More comments below. ... *** Isn t that the
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 11, 2006
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        Hello Kaye,

        the karma question is a fascinating one, and I developed my own
        understanding while still in Eckankar. More comments below.

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "eyesopen444"
        <eyesopen444@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi everyone!
        >
        > One question that I struggled with in my years in ekult was that of
        > Karma. Ekult presented it as such an oppressive and hopeless trap
        >that
        > you could not escape except through the lem/godman. I don't know
        >about
        > the rest of you, but I never experienced all that relief that was
        > promised or implied.

        *** Isn't that the good old sin/saviour trap we know so well from
        catholicism? And it's true that in Eckankar, the karma thing was a
        heavy one and you could only escape from it with the help of the all-
        knowing and omnipresent mahanta! For myself, I had developed the
        idea that karma was neutral - just action and re-action, like if you
        work for a company, you get paid. One Eckist used this as an example
        and it fascinated me as it took off a heavy burden from me! And for
        the karma relief, that is something you had to believe - there was
        no proof for that in this lifetime. And doesn't Eckankar always
        claim that you can prove everything yourself? Well, they must have
        forgotten the karma escape thing! LOL!
        >
        > I've been doing some research on the subject and found two
        >excellent
        > articles on the subject:
        >
        > "What is Karma?"
        > http://www.trans4mind.com/personal_development/Spiritual/karma.htm
        >
        > and
        >
        > "The Meaning of Karma"
        > http://www.arrowriver.ca/torStar/karmanote.html
        >
        > Karma was presented as being based on logic,(imagine that!) the
        > consequence of our own creation. It was not described as a THING to
        > punish or reward from many lifetimes past. In Buddhism there is no
        >one
        > to pass judgment. Karma is thought of as a natural law requiring
        > free-will.

        *** Based on logic! Wow! "Mind" and "mental" are gross words in
        Eckankar! LOL!
        >
        > So, boys and girls,- What's with all the promises and threats? It
        > seems that the lem also uses karma as a tool of control. I found
        > numerous claims made by the lem of having the power to absorb or
        > intervene in the deserving member's karma. Once the second
        >initiation
        > is received, the initiate doesn't have to reincarnate anymore.
        >Karma
        > can be "worked off", "burned off", "speeded up" by chanting secret
        > words, fasts, attending seminars, the e new year, spiritual
        >exercises
        > and monthly reports. There is also the claim that a member will not
        > have to face the Lords of Karma and be free of the Wheel of
        >Awagawan.

        *** Yeah, but you have to BELIEVE that - it's not a matter of proof,
        it's a matter of FAITH! :-) How stupid to believe that just because
        I write a monthly report to the lem or attend a seminar, my karma
        will be "burned off"! Well, in the case of attending a seminar, I
        certainly am relieved - but of money and not of karma! LOL!

        > And that's not all folks- members can also avoid incurring new
        >karma
        > by turning everthing over to the master and e force. Quite a sales
        > pitch for a religion!

        *** Yes they have all the answers, and you don't have to do
        anything - just trust in the master! But I must admit that times
        were easier when I "knew" that I belonged to the "right" religion -
        catholicism when I was a child and Eckankar as an adult! I think
        somebody over on ET said something similar - that life was easier or
        so when he thought he had all the answers. I can relate to that very
        much - but then, I wouldn't want to miss the freedom of thought I am
        experiencing now, and the freedom of trial, and of experience! So, I
        am happy where I am and grateful to have escaped the trap of
        Eckankar!
        >
        > Once the sale is made, however, the member finds out that the goods
        > don't always match the claims. If the member has problems, illness,
        > doubts, questions, etc. than the fault is theirs or some force that
        > they invited into their lives. Oh yeah, and here's the extra,
        >extra,
        > BONUS- the member finds out that if they leave they are subjected
        >to
        > curses and crushing punishment. Not sold yet? Any complaints?

        *** Well, if members have problems, they are just working out karma!
        LOL!
        >
        > Well... you could need the problems you're having for your
        >spiritual
        > growth OR you are being tested by the master OR you are being
        >attacked
        > by negative entities. In any case, it's YOUR fault because you lack
        > self-discipline OR have the wrong attitude OR are out of balance.
        >In
        > that case, go back to the part about working off karma and try
        >again.

        *** It's a real great sales pitch, isn't it! And it works because
        nothing can be proved - it's either/or all the time and the member
        is always the loser. It's a win/win game for Eckankar!

        Ingrid
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