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Re: Karma Question

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  • eyesopen444
    Hi everyone! One question that I struggled with in my years in ekult was that of Karma. Ekult presented it as such an oppressive and hopeless trap that you
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 8, 2006
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      Hi everyone!

      One question that I struggled with in my years in ekult was that of
      Karma. Ekult presented it as such an oppressive and hopeless trap that
      you could not escape except through the lem/godman. I don't know about
      the rest of you, but I never experienced all that relief that was
      promised or implied.

      I've been doing some research on the subject and found two excellent
      articles on the subject:

      "What is Karma?"
      http://www.trans4mind.com/personal_development/Spiritual/karma.htm

      and

      "The Meaning of Karma"
      http://www.arrowriver.ca/torStar/karmanote.html

      Karma was presented as being based on logic,(imagine that!) the
      consequence of our own creation. It was not described as a THING to
      punish or reward from many lifetimes past. In Buddhism there is no one
      to pass judgment. Karma is thought of as a natural law requiring
      free-will.

      So, boys and girls,- What's with all the promises and threats? It
      seems that the lem also uses karma as a tool of control. I found
      numerous claims made by the lem of having the power to absorb or
      intervene in the deserving member's karma. Once the second initiation
      is received, the initiate doesn't have to reincarnate anymore. Karma
      can be "worked off", "burned off", "speeded up" by chanting secret
      words, fasts, attending seminars, the e new year, spiritual exercises
      and monthly reports. There is also the claim that a member will not
      have to face the Lords of Karma and be free of the Wheel of Awagawan.
      And that's not all folks- members can also avoid incurring new karma
      by turning everthing over to the master and e force. Quite a sales
      pitch for a religion!

      Once the sale is made, however, the member finds out that the goods
      don't always match the claims. If the member has problems, illness,
      doubts, questions, etc. than the fault is theirs or some force that
      they invited into their lives. Oh yeah, and here's the extra, extra,
      BONUS- the member finds out that if they leave they are subjected to
      curses and crushing punishment. Not sold yet? Any complaints?

      Well... you could need the problems you're having for your spiritual
      growth OR you are being tested by the master OR you are being attacked
      by negative entities. In any case, it's YOUR fault because you lack
      self-discipline OR have the wrong attitude OR are out of balance. In
      that case, go back to the part about working off karma and try again.

      Did any of this work for you? I'd love to hear your opinions on this.

      Have Fun!

      Kaye
    • mishmisha9
      Hi, Kaye! Thanks for the post. I m inserting comments. ... wrote: Hi everyone! One question that I struggled with in my years in ekult was
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 8, 2006
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        Hi, Kaye!

        Thanks for the post. I'm inserting comments.

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "eyesopen444"
        <eyesopen444@...> wrote:

        Hi everyone!

        One question that I struggled with in my years in ekult was that of
        Karma. Ekult presented it as such an oppressive and hopeless trap
        that you could not escape except through the lem/godman. I don't
        know about the rest of you, but I never experienced all that relief
        that was promised or implied.

        ###
        Mish: When I joined eckankar, I had already experienced some
        hardships, made it through, so really I didn't feel that there was
        anything that one could not handle well enough with a certain
        resolution and Grace. I didn't have anything to turn over to HK to
        take care of for me!
        ####

        Kaye: I've been doing some research on the subject and found two
        excellent articles on the subject:

        "What is Karma?"
        http://www.trans4mind.com/personal_development/Spiritual/karma.htm

        and

        "The Meaning of Karma"
        http://www.arrowriver.ca/torStar/karmanote.html

        Kaye: Karma was presented as being based on logic,(imagine that!) the
        consequence of our own creation. It was not described as a THING to
        punish or reward from many lifetimes past. In Buddhism there is no
        one to pass judgment. Karma is thought of as a natural law requiring
        free-will.

        So, boys and girls,- What's with all the promises and threats? It
        seems that the lem also uses karma as a tool of control. I found
        numerous claims made by the lem of having the power to absorb or
        intervene in the deserving member's karma. Once the second initiation
        is received, the initiate doesn't have to reincarnate anymore. Karma
        can be "worked off", "burned off", "speeded up" by chanting secret
        words, fasts, attending seminars, the e new year, spiritual exercises
        and monthly reports. There is also the claim that a member will not
        have to face the Lords of Karma and be free of the Wheel of
        Awagawan.
        And that's not all folks- members can also avoid incurring new karma
        by turning everthing over to the master and e force. Quite a sales
        pitch for a religion!

        ###
        Mish: Yes, quite a sales pitch for those who are struggling in life.
        They see these promises by HK as the help they have needed for a
        long time. They believe life will get better with these spiritual
        techniques! However, how many eckists do you know who have really
        improved their lives? It seems that many maintain the status quo or
        even worse.
        ###

        Kaye: Once the sale is made, however, the member finds out that the
        goods don't always match the claims. If the member has problems,
        illness, doubts, questions, etc. than the fault is theirs or some
        force that they invited into their lives. Oh yeah, and here's the
        extra, extra, BONUS- the member finds out that if they leave they
        are subjected to curses and crushing punishment. Not sold yet? Any
        complaints?

        ###
        Mish: Well, yes, HK does blame the chela for his failure to thrive
        in eckankar! To reinterate HK's statement about losers in his most
        recent book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," on page 211:
        "Belief in the Master's ever-present company relies upon an
        individual's degree of unfoldment. Actual inner experiences help one
        move to a greater understanding of the ways of divine revelation.
        But if he chooses to hang on to shopworn karmic mental passion or
        habit like anger, then his spiritual momentum stops. It's that
        simple. Of course, a headstrong follower always tries to fix blame
        on the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master when his attempts to advance
        in ECK come to nothing.
        But such an attitude changes nothing. The individual is a loser and
        will continue to be a loser until he adopts the practices of a
        winner. . . . It's when he's seen that all responsibility for his
        unfoldment lies with him alone."
        So HK throws the responsibility back on the chela and calls him a
        loser--after HK says he can take on the karma for the chela. So, HK
        suckers people in and then tells them that they are responsible for
        their actions and choices--this of course is true, but why can't
        chelas at this point realize that the mahanta is worthless?
        ###

        Kaye: Well... you could need the problems you're having for your
        spiritual growth OR you are being tested by the master OR you are
        being attacked by negative entities. In any case, it's YOUR fault
        because you lack self-discipline OR have the wrong attitude OR are
        out of balance. In that case, go back to the part about working off
        karma and try again.

        ###
        Mish: I always found it interesting in the little discussions groups
        at ECK worship services how some members would tell their hardship
        stories and how they turned it over to the mahanta for help. They
        would indicate that this worked for them, but yet I could see that
        they still look stressed and not so happy. I think they believed
        their problems were being taken care of, but of course, their faces
        revealed the real truth--they still had worries and difficulties.
        The exception are those who have reached H.I. status because they
        feel they have it made at that point--soooooooo they're pretty happy
        at that point, but unfortunately, they are in the worst position,
        because it is difficult to then look at the "real" eckankar with all
        its lies and deceptions. Difficult for these chelas to admit the
        initiations are bogus! So some are really "hooked" for life to this
        scam.
        ###

        Kaye: Did any of this work for you? I'd love to hear your opinions
        on this.
        >

        ###
        Mish: I had trouble buying into it, and it seemed that my body was
        rejecting a lot of it. I would develop headaches and/or stomach
        pains when attending eck functions. I would feel frustrated at
        times. I guess I'm one of those "losers" HK wrote about! LOL! I feel
        like I let my guard down when I joined the org. So, now, I am
        determined to not be taken in again. This is what has worked for me--
        getting out of the craziness! What I wonder about, though, is why
        does HK stay his course? Is he really bad or is he actually crazy?
        Maybe some of both?

        I have known some chelas who believe that their poor health and
        hardshps are the result of their volunteering and willingness to
        take on some of the karma of others in order to lessen HK's burden!
        I guess they are not "losers" but rather they have positioned
        themselves on the right hand of the mahanta. They sit there joining
        with him in the delusion and the scam. That is a way some will
        explain their karma. So, for them, it works--and they believe that
        they will be rewarded in eck heaven for their great sacrifices for
        the mahanta. They feel sorry for HK! : )
        ###
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Kaye and Mish, I too would like to make some comments on this topic of Karma and of what Eckankar promises via the LEM/Mahanta. [Kaye]: One question that
        Message 3 of 4 , Apr 9, 2006
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          Hello Kaye and Mish,
          I too would like to make some comments on this topic of Karma and of
          what Eckankar promises via the LEM/Mahanta.

          [Kaye]: One question that I struggled with in my years in ekult was
          that of Karma. Ekult presented it as such an oppressive and hopeless
          trap that you could not escape except through the lem/godman. I
          don't know about the rest of you, but I never experienced all that
          relief that was promised or implied.

          [Mish]: When I joined eckankar, I had already experienced some
          hardships, made it through, so really I didn't feel that there was
          anything that one could not handle well enough with a certain
          resolution and Grace. I didn't have anything to turn over to HK to
          take care of for me!

          *[Me]: When a chela reaches the 5th Initiation the promise is that
          one is then free of past life Karma! There, of course, is still
          daily (kriyaman karma). Actually, Klemp claims that he (the Mahanta)
          will take primal, fate, and even reserve karma from the chela! This
          of course is just a lot of talk and a form of mass hypnotism and
          delusion. BTW, hypnotism "is considered one of the THIRTY-TWO
          FACETS, or steps, on the path." [Eckankar LexiCon pg. 92]


          [Kaye]: I've been doing some research on the subject and found two
          excellent articles on the subject:

          "What is Karma?"
          http://www.trans4mind.com/personal_development/Spiritual/karma.htm

          and

          "The Meaning of Karma"
          http://www.arrowriver.ca/torStar/karmanote.html

          [Kaye]: Karma was presented as being based on logic,(imagine that!)
          the consequence of our own creation. It was not described as a THING
          to punish or reward from many lifetimes past. In Buddhism there is
          no one to pass judgment. Karma is thought of as a natural law
          requiring free-will.

          So, boys and girls,- What's with all the promises and threats? It
          seems that the lem also uses karma as a tool of control. I found
          numerous claims made by the lem of having the power to absorb or
          intervene in the deserving member's karma. Once the second initiation
          is received, the initiate doesn't have to reincarnate anymore. Karma
          can be "worked off", "burned off", "speeded up" by chanting secret
          words, fasts, attending seminars, the e new year, spiritual exercises
          and monthly reports. There is also the claim that a member will not
          have to face the Lords of Karma and be free of the Wheel of
          Awagawan. And that's not all folks- members can also avoid incurring
          new karma by turning everthing over to the master and e force. Quite
          a sales pitch for a religion!


          [Mish]: Yes, quite a sales pitch for those who are struggling in
          life. They see these promises by HK as the help they have needed for
          a long time. They believe life will get better with these spiritual
          techniques! However, how many eckists do you know who have really
          improved their lives? It seems that many maintain the status quo or
          even worse.

          *[Me]: I always knew of the good and bad aspects of Karma and yet
          looked at even the "bad" as good because it was there to teach us
          lessons. Until we learn a specific spiritual lesson that same karma
          will just return over and over again BUT in a different guises. This
          is done (by SPIRIT), for each Soul, in order for Soul to learn it's
          lessons and to eventually "see" the correlations and make changes
          and evolve to a higher consciousness. Klemp does Not have the
          ability to give chelas short-cuts because he cannot even handle his
          own Karmic burdens! He uses his ill health as an excuse by claiming
          he is taking on the Karma of his flock. Klemp is a scammer and this
          is why he hides from both the public and his chelas and requires his
          chelas to be searched and scanned, at major seminars, before
          his "one" evening talk! A true Living Master would be physically
          available for both his chelas and the public and would Not be
          fearful of being harmed! How can Klemp talk about Trust when the
          LEM/Mahanta cannot trust! Seminar Security, for Klemp, is Really Not
          The Same As "TYING UP YOUR CAMEL!" Neither is hiding out and Not
          speaking at a monthly EWS at the Temple of Eck!


          [Kaye]: Once the sale is made, however, the member finds out that
          the goods don't always match the claims. If the member has problems,
          illness, doubts, questions, etc. then the fault is theirs or some
          force that they invited into their lives. Oh yeah, and here's the
          extra, extra, BONUS- the member finds out that if they leave they
          are subjected to curses and crushing punishment. Not sold yet? Any
          complaints?


          [Mish]: Well, yes, HK does blame the chela for his failure to thrive
          in eckankar! To reinterate HK's statement about losers in his most
          recent book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," on page 211:

          "Belief in the Master's ever-present company relies upon an
          individual's degree of unfoldment. Actual inner experiences help one
          move to a greater understanding of the ways of divine revelation.
          But if he chooses to hang on to shopworn karmic mental passion or
          habit like anger, then his spiritual momentum stops. It's that
          simple. Of course, a headstrong follower always tries to fix blame
          on the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master when his attempts to advance
          in ECK come to nothing. But such an attitude changes nothing. The
          individual is a loser and will continue to be a loser until he
          adopts the practices of a winner. . . . It's when he's seen that all
          responsibility for his unfoldment lies with him alone."

          So HK throws the responsibility back on the chela and calls him a
          loser--after HK says he can take on the karma for the chela. So, HK
          suckers people in and then tells them that they are responsible for
          their actions and choices--this of course is true, but why can't
          chelas at this point realize that the mahanta is worthless?

          *[Me]: I can see why Klemp is so focused on being a "winner" because
          if it wasn't for Twitchell's Eckankar scam he'd be a "loser!" This
          is why he has PAID to have himself listed in the "International
          Who's Who of Intellectuals, Ninth Edition." What degrees does Klemp
          have? He never does say much about this and other details even in
          his so called Autobiography. Oh, I know what it must be... it's all
          of those "Wonderful" books that he has printed himself!


          [Kaye]: Well... you could need the problems you're having for your
          spiritual growth OR you are being tested by the master OR you are
          being attacked by negative entities. In any case, it's YOUR fault
          because you lack self-discipline OR have the wrong attitude OR are
          out of balance. In that case, go back to the part about working off
          karma and try again.


          [Mish]: I always found it interesting in the little discussions
          groups at ECK worship services how some members would tell their
          hardship stories and how they turned it over to the mahanta for
          help. They would indicate that this worked for them, but yet I could
          see that they still look stressed and not so happy. I think they
          believed their problems were being taken care of, but of course,
          their faces revealed the real truth--they still had worries and
          difficulties. The exception are those who have reached H.I. status
          because they feel they have it made at that point--soooooooo they're
          pretty happy at that point, but unfortunately, they are in the worst
          position, because it is difficult to then look at the "real"
          eckankar with all its lies and deceptions. Difficult for these
          chelas to admit the initiations are bogus! So some are
          really "hooked" for life to this scam.

          *[Me]: Actually, the truth could be some of the things that Kaye has
          spoken of, BUT the "tests" are something the individual Soul has to
          deal with and are Not by-passed due to Klemp's intervention. Soul
          doesn't need another Soul to intercede via Karma. Remember that
          story about the emperor moth! Contradictions run amuck within the
          Eck "teachings!" Yes, the delusion becomes greater as one reaches
          the higher initiations. BUT, one really needs to buy into the E-crap
          for the delusion to work. The problem is that Eckankar just doesn't
          work all that well regardless of how much one tries to believe that
          it's all true. This is Not the fault of the chela as Klemp would
          have them think. The reason Eckankar doesn't work is because it is a
          false teaching that was pieced together by a con artist and liar...
          P.T.


          [Kaye]: Did any of this work for you? I'd love to hear your opinions
          on this.



          [Mish]: I had trouble buying into it, and it seemed that my body was
          rejecting a lot of it. I would develop headaches and/or stomach
          pains when attending eck functions. I would feel frustrated at
          times. I guess I'm one of those "losers" HK wrote about! LOL! I feel
          like I let my guard down when I joined the org. So, now, I am
          determined to not be taken in again. This is what has worked for me--
          getting out of the craziness! What I wonder about, though, is why
          does HK stay his course? Is he really bad or is he actually crazy?
          Maybe some of both?

          I have known some chelas who believe that their poor health and
          hardshps are the result of their volunteering and willingness to
          take on some of the karma of others in order to lessen HK's burden!
          I guess they are not "losers" but rather they have positioned
          themselves on the right hand of the mahanta. They sit there joining
          with him in the delusion and the scam. That is a way some will
          explain their karma. So, for them, it works--and they believe that
          they will be rewarded in eck heaven for their great sacrifices for
          the mahanta. They feel sorry for HK! : )

          *[Me]: What worked for me was what worked prior to, during, and
          after Eckankar. In other words... I discovered that Eckankar was a
          distraction to what was really taking place. However, this became
          very noticeable only AFTER I rejected the Eck teachings! Until then
          I was Not truly seeing or even seeing clearly! It was a revelation
          and shift to a higher level of consciousness when seeing the truth
          about the scam of Eckankar. Until Eckists, or even some former
          Eckists, acknowledge the scam of Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp they
          will Not truly see with clarity.

          Prometheus
        • ctecvie
          Hello Kaye, the karma question is a fascinating one, and I developed my own understanding while still in Eckankar. More comments below. ... *** Isn t that the
          Message 4 of 4 , Apr 11, 2006
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            Hello Kaye,

            the karma question is a fascinating one, and I developed my own
            understanding while still in Eckankar. More comments below.

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "eyesopen444"
            <eyesopen444@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi everyone!
            >
            > One question that I struggled with in my years in ekult was that of
            > Karma. Ekult presented it as such an oppressive and hopeless trap
            >that
            > you could not escape except through the lem/godman. I don't know
            >about
            > the rest of you, but I never experienced all that relief that was
            > promised or implied.

            *** Isn't that the good old sin/saviour trap we know so well from
            catholicism? And it's true that in Eckankar, the karma thing was a
            heavy one and you could only escape from it with the help of the all-
            knowing and omnipresent mahanta! For myself, I had developed the
            idea that karma was neutral - just action and re-action, like if you
            work for a company, you get paid. One Eckist used this as an example
            and it fascinated me as it took off a heavy burden from me! And for
            the karma relief, that is something you had to believe - there was
            no proof for that in this lifetime. And doesn't Eckankar always
            claim that you can prove everything yourself? Well, they must have
            forgotten the karma escape thing! LOL!
            >
            > I've been doing some research on the subject and found two
            >excellent
            > articles on the subject:
            >
            > "What is Karma?"
            > http://www.trans4mind.com/personal_development/Spiritual/karma.htm
            >
            > and
            >
            > "The Meaning of Karma"
            > http://www.arrowriver.ca/torStar/karmanote.html
            >
            > Karma was presented as being based on logic,(imagine that!) the
            > consequence of our own creation. It was not described as a THING to
            > punish or reward from many lifetimes past. In Buddhism there is no
            >one
            > to pass judgment. Karma is thought of as a natural law requiring
            > free-will.

            *** Based on logic! Wow! "Mind" and "mental" are gross words in
            Eckankar! LOL!
            >
            > So, boys and girls,- What's with all the promises and threats? It
            > seems that the lem also uses karma as a tool of control. I found
            > numerous claims made by the lem of having the power to absorb or
            > intervene in the deserving member's karma. Once the second
            >initiation
            > is received, the initiate doesn't have to reincarnate anymore.
            >Karma
            > can be "worked off", "burned off", "speeded up" by chanting secret
            > words, fasts, attending seminars, the e new year, spiritual
            >exercises
            > and monthly reports. There is also the claim that a member will not
            > have to face the Lords of Karma and be free of the Wheel of
            >Awagawan.

            *** Yeah, but you have to BELIEVE that - it's not a matter of proof,
            it's a matter of FAITH! :-) How stupid to believe that just because
            I write a monthly report to the lem or attend a seminar, my karma
            will be "burned off"! Well, in the case of attending a seminar, I
            certainly am relieved - but of money and not of karma! LOL!

            > And that's not all folks- members can also avoid incurring new
            >karma
            > by turning everthing over to the master and e force. Quite a sales
            > pitch for a religion!

            *** Yes they have all the answers, and you don't have to do
            anything - just trust in the master! But I must admit that times
            were easier when I "knew" that I belonged to the "right" religion -
            catholicism when I was a child and Eckankar as an adult! I think
            somebody over on ET said something similar - that life was easier or
            so when he thought he had all the answers. I can relate to that very
            much - but then, I wouldn't want to miss the freedom of thought I am
            experiencing now, and the freedom of trial, and of experience! So, I
            am happy where I am and grateful to have escaped the trap of
            Eckankar!
            >
            > Once the sale is made, however, the member finds out that the goods
            > don't always match the claims. If the member has problems, illness,
            > doubts, questions, etc. than the fault is theirs or some force that
            > they invited into their lives. Oh yeah, and here's the extra,
            >extra,
            > BONUS- the member finds out that if they leave they are subjected
            >to
            > curses and crushing punishment. Not sold yet? Any complaints?

            *** Well, if members have problems, they are just working out karma!
            LOL!
            >
            > Well... you could need the problems you're having for your
            >spiritual
            > growth OR you are being tested by the master OR you are being
            >attacked
            > by negative entities. In any case, it's YOUR fault because you lack
            > self-discipline OR have the wrong attitude OR are out of balance.
            >In
            > that case, go back to the part about working off karma and try
            >again.

            *** It's a real great sales pitch, isn't it! And it works because
            nothing can be proved - it's either/or all the time and the member
            is always the loser. It's a win/win game for Eckankar!

            Ingrid
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