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Reflections and Ponderings (a repost from ET)

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  • Gnothe Seauton
    Hello All, I found the comments of Leaf and I Am to be interesting and decided to forward them over here from eckankartruth. I hope everyone enjoys the
    Message 1 of 1 , Apr 3, 2006
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      Hello All,
      I found the comments of Leaf and I Am to be interesting and decided to forward them over here from eckankartruth. I hope everyone enjoys the discussion and the sharing of reflections and ponderings.

      prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
      From: "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...>
      Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 17:49:14 -0000
      Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Reflections and Ponderings (esp. for "IAmFreedom")

      Hello I Am Freedom,
      I just thought I'd add my two cents worth to the discussion. On Lucid Dreaming... this is where one is sleeping and dreams and then "wakes up" in the dream to the fact that they are dreaming! On realizing this one can then choose to shape the dream as they please
      and it can become a very fun and exciting experience. It is liken to playing a video game and making yourself the hero or stunt driver! Perhaps, this is why video games are so popular.

      My experience with what Eckankar terms as "waking dreams" was different because these take place during the "awake" state during the day (or night). One can be more attentive and see things that one would not see normally. Of course, hypnosis, is defined as hyper
      attentiveness. Therefore, one can have "waking dream" experiences due to programming, intense desire, making assumptions, and expectation. I know that I would make a poor witness because of mistakes that I have made in seeing things, or people, that proved to be inaccurate later. Of course, I have also experienced phenomenon that was real (subjective) and that only I can know to be true. However, I also know that there are spiritually advanced and humble Souls (non-Eck) with us here and now and this fact is not only very impressive BUT also a relief to know! All in all I know that Eckankar is a scam and that all religions are like all
      governments. Some are slightly better than others, they have a limiting structure and purpose, they conform to a group's consciousness and they help to maintain a certain sense of order.[And, they all feel their members or citizens are the most advanced on the planet]! 

      When I first joined Eckankar I was told that the first initiation would come in the dream state. I desperately wanted to see an Eck Master in my dreams and finally I saw what looked like Lai Tsi. Except, this guy looked more like that Chinese Master in Kill Bill 2 and he wore a taller hat than Lsi Tsi did in the Eck drawing.

      As far as seeing or meeting these Eck Masters, or angels, or anyone prior to actually seeing their picture or meeting them in person or whatever this is a common experience and is sometimes referred to as
      deja vu! Soul is not limited by time or space and sometimes we are given experiences of what we need at any given point-in-time. This is common to everyone and cannot be copyrighted by Eckankar! LOL! Anyway, I just wanted to share some thoughts. Welcome to these sites. <smile>


      iam999freedom wrote:

      Actually Leaf I wasn't really troubled by the approach you took to my previous post. We both had subjective experiences in that they can't be proven to anyone else. I called my experiences with RT a "waking dream", you called your experiences a "lucid dream". I don't think there is any real difference in the type of experience other than the jargon.

      However I believe there is one main difference in our experiences which I would like to note (at least the way I see it). Your experience can easily be dismissed by a sceptic as being a result of the power of self-suggestion ie., you looked at RT's photo many times with a longing of having a spirtual experience. However when I had my initial meeting in a "lucid or waking dream" with him I had no clue whatsoever who the guy was. A never saw a photo of him anywhere prior to the encounter so the experience of him couldn't have been a result of suggestion from an external source. That is why I phrased it my previous post to the effect of maybe RT is objective in some way in the "Beingness of the Universe". After all not only myself but many others have claimed to have inner experiences with these "Masters" before they ever met them in the

      That still does not mean to me anyway that the path of Eckankar is the only and ultimate way to God as it so many times claims to be. I believe there are many flaws in it which I couldn't stomach anymore ie., the threats and curses for members that leave, the absolute need for an intercessor to the determent of relying on the Higher Self, the making of the path into a religion with all of the suble trappings which that entails ,etc.

      About your hamburger analogy, I think there is some truth to that. Eckankar has a slick marketing approach which rivals MacDonalds. And I don't think in the world of spirtual consumerism there needs to be a striving to be #1. Eckankar should teach what it has to offer and let life be.

      Anymore thanks for your expression of moderation. Hope to hear more of your creative posts.


      "tomleafeater" tianyue wrote:

      You know, I've been sitting around thinking about this series of posts, and I've been a little troubled by my response to 'Iamfreedom' in the "Why do people see Rebazar' thread.

      Not to overstate this, but it seems I've become a weathered A.R.E. veteran, used to carefully phrasing everything I say, lest someone find some flaw in my phrasing, and drive a wedge into my logic in an
      attempt to discredit it. I'm getting weary of this. It isn't representative of my life, of my thoughts, of my being.  Not that anything I've written is is at all incorrect or wrong, or inaccurate. Only that it was structured for a certain audience, to contend with certain conditions that were prevalent. I'm feeling the need to let that go, at least to some degree.

      Not that I won't write on a..r.e. anymore, for I may, if I see a need. I can still face the aggression, and I will if it becomes necessary. I'd not want to see it become too much a tool for spreading Eckcnkar propaganda. As it is, there are plenty of people
      willing to speak up there. But I'm losing my `inspiration' for that sort of environment. Its far too toxic. What an irony that one of most lethal environments I've ever been in involves Eckankar High
      Initiates on an internet site. I suppose I've served my time.

      I've learned a great deal by hanging out there. A fellow named Lurk, and another fellow called Samorez taught me a few things. Colleen made a strong impression. My good friend Sword dropped in from time
      to time. And Sharon was there early on. And Alf was there with his humor. And there was the occasional comment by Lane. And others taught me things as well. But that is becoming a part of my past, I think.

      "Freedom' wrote a story about his experiences with Masters as a kid, and there have been responses, including my own. I felt it needed to be responded to with a rebutal, and I still feel there was a need,
      but it could have been a little more gentle and tolerant.

      When it gets write down to it, no one knows what the essential nature really is of another person's reported experiences, or whether there is at least a measure of truth in such experiences. Sure we all think we have a pretty good clue about the reality of such things, and sometimes maybe we do, but there is much out there
      that we may not know about. Its one thing to say Eckankar is false, and built on lies, which it clearly, definitely, irrefutably is. Its another thing entirely to prattle on as if we have ALL the answers. We don't. No one does. Isn't that the whole point of the lesson
      learned in Eckankar, in a nutshell?

      There is an inner and outer cosmos full of wonder. I had become jaded in my own spirituality, after my experience with Eckankar. I still have a working policy of doubting everything that comes along my path, as I now know I should. It is extremely healthy to preserve
      one's ability to question and doubt, until one is sure, and then, perhaps, to doubt some more, until one is very very sure. And occasionally, its good to revisit things we're sure about, just to certain we're right. And some things may be impossible to ascertain with any absolute certainty.

      When I accept a new principle or idea, or a new paradigm, I accept it on a tentative basis. It would be very, very unusual, at this juncture, for me to have an absolute, fixed, inflexible belief. I've outgrown the need for such things. My spirituality now if full of
      wonder, of exploration, of trying on ideas to see how they fit, and I'm more than willing now to cast off old garments for something fresh that comes along. My approach is playful and adventurous.

      I love this new approach. Its so much more enjoyable and fun.

      For example, my new fascination is with Taoism (the philosophy, rather than the religious forms). Its an interest, but I could cast if off in a second if I chose. It doesn't define me. It never will.

      On the other hand, I do feel that other's personal experiences which may conflict with my own should be respected, if at all possible, not with standing certain exceptions.

      I draw the line when it comes to spiritual claims that have been demonstrated to be fraudulent of false, as well as with manipulative practices, and the use of entrapping devices and tactics that serve the purpose of creating a psychological hold on followers. And I
      have absolutely no respect for the attempt to exploit the fragile spirituality of truth seekers, a practice which has become so prevalent these days.

      In other words, I do generally think people's comments should be respected, and there should be an atmosphere of tolerance of views, whenever possible. I still finding my own internal balance with this.

      I hope this clarifies my earlier comments.


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