Fwd: [X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck] Re: Joan Klemp Is An Eck Master in Training for L.E.M.!
- Reposts from X-Eckankar The-Chains-of-Eck:
prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
From: "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...>
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 16:57:53 -0000
Subject: [X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck] Re: Joan Klemp Is An Eck Master in Training for L.E.M.!
I just wanted to address Klemp's Shariyat reasons, in 2001, for Not
having a female as the LEM. Women are said to be "passive" and yet
Twitch, on page 374, states "passive resistance succeeds because it
is a positive force" then Twich contradicts himself by saying
that "the feminine way is too passive." Does this mean that women
are too much a "positive force?!" The Shariyat (Twitch) also states
that the female is too "reactive." However, it seems that HK is
himself very "reactive!" Look at his comments in the 2003 H.I.
Letter regarding that "Third" Temporary Postal Clerk and
those "loser" comments in his "Wonderful" book. Also, look at HK's
nasty and threatening comments at the end of this 2001 "Ask the
Master" article or in the Dec. 2005 #3 Ask the Master. The Shariyat
also mentions that the female is "retrogressive." This is strange
because I don't see this at all! Actually, Mr. Klemp seems to be
retrogressive! Now I know that he created the RESA structure,
however, most RESAs are women! HK has had some new buildings and a
Temple built but a woman could have done this. HK didn't do it on
his own! As far as the Eck Worship Service... I'm not so sure that a
woman would have done this and it is more "retrogressive"
than "progressive." Also, little Harry always seems to bring up
things about the past and of past masters and "historical" things
and mythologial events and such. This is retrogressive! Therefore,
(IMO) HK seems to fill Twitchell's askewed opinion of feminine
characteristics more than he does of a male LEM! BUT... that's just
my observation of the facts. <smile>
In the June 2001 Mystic World of Eckankar, Ask the Master? Klemp
answers the question of, "Why can't a female be the Mahanta, the
Living ECK Master?"
Klemp answers, "The SUGMAD (God) appoints the male who is to be the
next Mahanta, the Living ECK Master. It is always a male." He then
goes on to answer the "why" by referencing the Shariyat chapter 7 of
Book 2 or page 371 of Books 1&2. However, if one reads some of what
is written on the bottom of page 370-371 and reads further through
pages 375 one can see contradictions. The female is defined
as "passive" and "reactive" and "retrogressive" whereas the male is
said to be "positive, active, and progressive." I saw nothing in
this definition that used the word term "negative."
Twitch states on pages 370-371 that, "... the ECKist is a realist,
for he knows how to use the Law of Polarity. When he has to use his
consciousness in the psychic world, he is able to take advantage of
the Law of Opposites. But when he is in the world of the true
Kingdom of God, then he is able to use the Law of Polarity for his
own benefit through his conscious state."
To me this is saying that a female Eckist can handle the 12th
Initiation (LEM) if she can handle an 8th or 9th! She has proven
this! Of couse all initiations are bogus to begin with, however,
this, and other statements in the Shariyat, does give room for
changes in tradition to be made and Kata Daki proves this. This is
not written in stone, due to the contradictions, and Soul as well as
the Mahanta are said to be a Law Unto Ones Self!
Anyway here's more. "... in order to live in this world MAN, right
from birth, is trained in the ways of the NEGATIVE, to be at least
materialistic enough to learn to support HIMSELF in this world of
matter. Therefore, all HIS prayers are to a NEGATIVE god regardless
of what MAN calls HIM or believes HE may be... MAN is schooled in
becoming the slave of phenomena. Since the human consciousness, or
the NEGATIVE state, is decay and death, HE is trained less in the
art of living than in the art of dying... This means that ANYONE who
is strongly NEGATIVE is the slave of HIS materialistic world...
human consciousness is trained to be NEGATIVE or dominated by the
Kal force... All MEN have a tendency to let THEMSELVES become the
slaves to the Kal power. This is the HERD instinct, and a CRUTCH,
for ALL IN THE HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS HAVE THE TENDENCY TO WANT TO
FOLLOW A LEADER; THIS IS THE RULE OF KAL... PASSIVE RESISTANCE
SUCCEEDS BECAUSE IT IS A POSITIVE FORCE... THE FEMININE WAY IS TOO
PASSIVE... HE forgets that HE is acting in a manner in which the Kal
desires HIM to do. It is the MASCULINE way of TRYING to receive the
Light and Sound of God... The way is the NEUTER PATH, the way which
is NEITHER MASCULINE nor FEMININE in HIS approach to the Eck, to
God.. By traveling the MIDDLE PATH does the chela reach the gates of
heaven." [pgs. 371-375, My caps]
So why can't Joan be a Co-LEM! I think that Klemp could just change
his position and claim it as a Miracle, or a change in world (or his)
Here's something interesting that I found on page 374 of the
Shariyat 1&2. "... there has always been a race between the
preistcraft and the clergy to vie for honors as to who would be the
INTERMEDIARY for the position of serving the human race as the voice
of God...The Living ECK Master.. is the only one who is in a
position to stand as the INTERMEDIARY between Soul and God." [My
So, it seems that Twitch created the LEM/Mahanta position in order
to compete with and take the place of the priestcraft and clergy of
orothodox religion. Strange how Eckists think that they chose a
spiritual path higher than that and where Soul was Free as Its own
Master. It's the old bait and switch routine with Eckankar. Now you
see it, now you don't! This is just one of the subtle and Not so
subtle tricks of the trade in religious scams and cons.
By the way, at the end of the June 2001 "Ask the Master" response by
Klemp is this last paragraph: "Yes, today some find it hard to
accept these pure ECK teachings. It is because of egotism. So they
dispute these words of the Master and become snide with him. They
never understand the troubles that befall them as a result."
So, this is one more fear tactic that Klemp uses to keep Eckists in
line and to shut them up! He even uses a threat at the end that
mentions "the troubles that befall them as a result" of their
questions. Klemp is taking a position of Power and Not of Love. This
is also the reason why many Eckists are cautious of what they write
in their Initiate Reports or what they say in Satsangs or to H.I.s
in general. This is also why Klemp & Company use the "Law of
Silence" and "Surrender" to the extent that they do. Eckankar is,
truly, a mind-control religious cult.
--- In X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
Of course, I am speculating and reacting to what I have been reading
in Klemp's book, "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." However, it is the
sense I am feeling that Klemp needs Joan's help more than ever. He's
frail and getting older. He must think his mind works much better
than his body (LOL)and therefore, mentally, he can hold on to his
positions--with the help of Joan. In order, though, for this to
happen he has to show that Joan has advanced to his level, or at
least, near level so that all will respect her being up there with
him and even alone when he wants to lie in bed rather than show up
for his annual public talk at the EWWS. It's another way for him
to reduce his physical presence, which as you know, he has cutted
back on severely in recent years. I've read all of Klemp's
transcripts and several of his other books. I do not recall him
mentioning Joan appearing in chelas' dreams before what he wrote in
this book. That is why I zeroed in on it. It seemed odd and very
contrived, and I am of the mind, that Klemp does have ulterior
motives in slipping in such little comments.
Certainly, I understand the old eck creed that women cannot become
L.E.M. unless they leave and come back as a male in the next
lifetime. The reason given, women are "negatively charged, being
receivers, not senders of light." They are said to not be physically
capable of holding the position.
Have you ever heard of a second female ECK Master that Klemp has
mentioned, Simha (Lady of ECK)? Klemp states that there are still
ECK Masters who are coming to light and some of them are female.
Anyway, my speculations about Joan being put in a power position is
another option that I do believe Klemp (and Joan) are exploring. I
don't think many Eckists stay that attuned to what has been said
here and there, and also, with their firm convictions in believing
the Master (Klemp), he certainly can change things in an instant
and no one would dare challenge him. Also, it would seem obvious
that the female eckists would not have a problem in a change
regarding a female becoming L.E.M.--I think they would rather like
the opportunity! : )
There are probably other options that Klemp is also pondering as
he reaches closer to the time that he needs to step down, but I
think the idea of Joan becoming co-L.E.M. or L.E.M. while Klemp
remains mahanta is a very strong possibility. I sensed he is
thinking this as I read his book. He is such a control freak--he'll
want to hold on as long as he can, with the help of Joan. To
accomplish this, he would need to elevate her as high as he can.
As I stated before, he can't trust anyone else! Klemp obviously
needs help--the job is becoming too much for him, but yet he doesn't
want to give it up too soon! LOL!
--- In X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck@yahoogroups.com, Sharon
Digest Number 258
I'm going to be "snipping" and only commenting on a few things.
Yes, I've seen most of everything that's posted over at ESA, but
because of the quantity sometimes I get way behind on reading my
daily digests. Great stuff there, and I always assume people are
reading all the ex-eck groups - except for a few who find me
offensive, so they probably avoid ET! <gg>
I'm sure Klemp's latest "book" is filled with the same-old, same-
old - if sometime in the future I see it at a yard sale for less
than $1 I might pick it up, but probably not - because by that time
hopefully I'll have the new website done and will have absolutely
*no* reason to look at eckstuff anymore!
While I think of it, don't remember if it was here or at ESA that
someone posted something about the member stories Klemp often uses.
One thing I'd like to add to those comments is another ex-member's
experience, which I'm pretty sure he objected to and posted about
while he was still an eckist. Let me go hunting for it...okay,
It starts off with Grundie posting an eckstory, and then comes
Dennis's post - he hadn't been aware that a story from one of his
initiate's reports had not only ended up in an eckbook, but wasn't
repeated correctly. Anyway, Dennis is no longer a member, I'm glad to
Okay, back to Klemp's mentioning the wife. No, I don't think he's
trying to set her up to be the next LEM. I'm wondering, maybe
you're not familiar with the fact that basically *all* eckists are
supposed to be out there flitting around the "inner planes" leading
people to the "mahaunta", just as they're supposed to be doing it
here on earth. Maybe Klemp's getting rid of all that stuff about
the "inner" community of eckists, and how whether members know it or
not, they're all out there (in there?) hanging out being "spirichul"
and generally having a good time. Good grief, sometimes people would
tell me about having "dream experiences" with me, and it sort of
gave me the creepy-crawlies!!
Okay, here's just one example of this - geared more to the public,
holding out "guardian angelship" as the carrot instead
of "eckmastership". And typical e-kult, claiming other's "stuff"
for its own!! See: http://tinyurl.com/ax23g
This isn't the best example, but basically, *all* eckists are
supposed to be doing this. Heck, I even remember old discussions at
satsang & bookstudies, where it was said that if we woke up feeling
like we were hit by a truck, it was because we were working hard
for "the eck" in the "dream state". Which reminds me of the "food
poisoning" nonsense!! I *really* need to get all my old a.r.e.
posts on a website for easy reference!
Okay, the "food poisoning" one is pretty funny, here's
the link: http://tinyurl.com/8mb6g
Backing up again, you'd written: "Joan is mentioned a couple of
times as being seen in chelas dreams along with the mahanta (HK).
She connects the chelas on the inner to the mahanta--thus, she is co-
working something with him. How could Joan be appearing in chelas'
dreams if she were not a master??"
Unless they've changed things since I got out, you don't need to be
a "master" to appear in dreams -that's what eckists are supposedly
(and supposed to be) doing anyway!
Darn, my mind's wandering off here, this stuff is to yukky.
But another thing - reading Klemp's old stories about his
own "training" to be LEM, at the time I thought it was a bit strange
when he talked about how he wasn't the only one
in "training"...well, the whole scenario didn't make sense - he'd
been told that he'd be the next one, then the announcement wasn't
made as he'd been promised (I think) and at the same time he said
something about all those others who were in training to be the LEM -
it just seemed to me that "the eck" didn't exactly know what it was
doing, you know what I mean? So now he's doing the same basic
thing that Twitch did - encouraging male eckies to believe they have
a chance as becoming LEM, but at the same time wanting to sort
of "hold them down", and keep a fine balance between keeping the
members by holding out the hope, but not too much!!
This is all *such* crap, and enough is enough for me right now!!
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