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Re: Klemp uses suggestion and hypnotism

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  • mishmisha9
    Hello Pretujari and All! Pretujari makes some excellent and interesting points about Klemp s use of suggestion and hypnotism to manipulate and control chelas
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 13, 2006
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      Hello Pretujari and All!

      Pretujari makes some excellent and interesting points about Klemp's
      use of suggestion and hypnotism to manipulate and control chelas'
      thoughts. I believe, as well, that many of the stories are made up
      or at least embellished. Also, I have known eckists who orchestrate
      events in order to create a "spiritual" story so they can send it in
      to HK with the hopes of it being used by the master! Sort of like
      some of America's Funniest Home Videos that are contrived! LOL!

      Recently on an eck chat site, there has been discussion on how to
      accomplish successful vahana work. An eck leader in one state said
      that they want one eckist for every five newcomers at an intro. Each
      eckist is supposed to be able to share 3 personal stories. The eck
      leader says that if an eckist doesn't have 3 personal stories, they
      can cheat by using the ones that HK has used from other eckists. So
      when considering that some of those stories are made-up, and then
      they are being "borrowed" by other eckists in order to create a
      fantastical intro for seekers, the entire vahana effort becomes
      nothing but lies and distortions. The lies just grow bigger and
      bigger, but eckists are told it is okay to "cheat" if it can pull in
      new members. It all comes down to suckering in more people to the
      cult--it has little if anything to do with being honest and
      spiritual! I found the encouragement to "cheat" disgusting.

      I am working on a new post with more of HK's comments on using the
      creative imagination--from "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." The book
      indeed is an excellent tool that demonstrates Klemp's use of
      suggestion and hypnotism to those who are willing to believe his
      crap!

      Mish

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"
      <pretujari@...> wrote:

      Hi Prometheus, Mish, and All,

      I am sure Klemp made up the story about the Nigerian Eckist,
      Christy. I have long suspected he has been making some of these
      stories up by the way something about them do not gel, like the
      holes Prometheus you punched in the Christy story. Some of these
      stories are sent to him from the field, of course. But even many of
      those are made up by their tellers who wish to gain recognition for
      the trumped up initiations.

      Some years ago, at an Eckankar workshop, someone very close to
      Klemp, working with him at the international office, related a story
      that made me suspect Klemp uses suggestion and hypnotism on the
      members. The entry about himself in his latest book with the
      recycled contents has confirmed this for me.

      What are the methods of the hypnotist? Essentially, the practioner
      immobilizes one's conscious will or sets it aside in order to get to
      the subconscious. Then he issues commands to the subconscious which
      accepts and acts it out without the sanction of the conscious will.
      I detected a similar method, very subtly done, in Klemp's write-up
      about himself as reproduced by Mish in Klemp's new book.

      First, he told his readers in a one sentence paragraph at the
      beginning of a chapter. `I am well aware of my limitations.'

      The function of this sentence and the manner it is delivered is
      meant to engage the conscious, reasoning mind, to get it out of the
      way by giving it something to engage its attention. While it is thus
      engaged, the subconscious is unguarded and exposed. Then is the time
      to issue the suggestions to it.

      So immediately following the single sentence paragraph, he proceeds
      to suggest to the subconscious of the reader the subliminal messages
      about the mahanta such as:

      "The Mahanta [Master Klemp] is the highest state of consciousness
      known to the chronicles of man…"

      "You have only to seek the Mahanta, [Master Klemp] today's Living
      Eck Master. He is God's elect."

      "Think of the Mahanta [Master Klemp] as the Personalized ECK.

      "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master [Master Klemp] also has the
      ability and the authority to alter an individual's fate."

      Klemp also capitalizes on the power of the individual's imagination
      to form and manifest what it forms. This is what makes the spiritual
      exercises work. He reveals this in this statement accompanying the
      spiritual exercises of seeing any of the masters:

      "At first you may feel you have met Rebarzar or one of the ECK
      Masters only in your imagination. But with time and practice, you
      will find they are real people just like you."

      This is a very powerful suggestion, aimed at the power of the
      individual's imagination manifesting a belief through repetition.

      So, once the suggestions have been accepted by the subconscious, the
      imagination proceed to form and manifest them as the person's inner
      and outer experiences. This is how the individual is hooked. One
      will remain so until they finally listen to doubts brought to the
      attention by the Inner Voice and listen to It.

      The evidence to all of this is shown in how the inner and outer
      Eckankar experiences immediately ceases with anyone when he or she
      severs connection and renounces Eckankar.

      Pretujari
      >
    • prometheus_973
      I overlooked some of PT s descriptions (10-16) for Yaubl. Here s the update. Hi Pretujari, I found some old descriptions of Fubbi & Yaubl that don t match the
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 17, 2006
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        I overlooked some of PT's descriptions (10-16) for Yaubl. Here's the
        update.

        Hi Pretujari,
        I found some old descriptions of Fubbi & Yaubl that don't match the
        ones that Klemp and Company are promoting. Who or what are these
        Eckists seeing? Twitch had the first contact with these "Masters" so
        one would think that his descriptions are the more valid ones!

        Here are Paul's descriptions as stated in "Difficulties of Becoming
        the Living ECK Master."

        Fubbi Quantz (pgs 110-112):
        1. Wears a high turban
        2. Long white robe
        3. Does Not appear to people or gives instructions
        4. Very busy with the Shariyat
        5. Awfully busy with spiritual development of the planet
        6. 1,000 years old (close to)
        7. Very tall 6'3"
        8. Very swarthy, long hands, pointed feet
        9. Rebazar was his pupil
        10. Has a very deep rolling voice
        11. Monastery is a long brown building upon a mountain peak &
        overlooks a range of mountains.
        12. Located in Tibet on earth plane-planes fly over but can't see
        it, etc.


        [NOTE: Twitchell DID NOT mention that FUBBI had a BEARD but did
        mention that he wore a HIGH TURBAN!]


        Yaubl Sacabi (pgs. 113-115):
        1. He doesn't walk upright
        2. His face is a light color, looks very ascetic, and very old
        3. Walks slowly and speaks with great dignity and in a higher than
        normal pitch.
        4. Teacher of Fubbi
        5. 5'8" or 5'10" tall
        6. A sort of square face
        7. 2,000-3,000 years old (not sure)
        8. Very long slender hands
        9. Lives on Agam Des with the God-Eaters in Himalaya Mountains near
        Kashmer border.
        10. Wears a sort of a sandal
        11. Wears a toga type of a gown
        12. Likes to sit in a corner of a public market
        13. Talks from a podium
        14. People will come there via Soul Travel to study the Shariyat
        15. The place (monastery) looks like Canterbury Cathedral in England
        16. Light surrounds him and comes from him


        [NOTE: Twitch DID NOT mention Yaubl's LACK OF HAIR and stated that
        he walked bent over and LOOKED VERY OLD!]


        Both of these descriptions of Fubbi and Yaubl that Paul Twitchell
        (First LEM/Mahanta and founder of Eckankar) gives don't match with
        the drawings that were done after Twitchell's death! How then can
        these "masters" be believable to Eckists. Who and What are they
        seeing?

        *Eckists are Not seeing the same FUBBI and YAUBL that Twitchell saw!
        Perhaps this is one more reason why Klemp has refused to reprint or
        make available as a e-book "The Difficulties of Becoming the Living
        ECK Master" by Paul Twitchell.

        I agree. It is through suggestion and hypnosis that Eckists are
        seeing what they see. When visions of visitations take place before
        the fact of meeting these "Masters" or HK it is merely that Soul
        (not limited by time and space) is experiencing the influences that
        will be taking place in the future. Deja vu is quite common to every
        Soul!

        Prometheus





        Pretujari wrote:
        Hi Prometheus, Mish, and All,
        I am sure Klemp made up the story about the Nigerian Eckist,
        Christy. I have long suspected he has been making some of these
        stories up by the way something about them do not gel, like the
        holes Prometheus you punched in the Christy story. Some of these
        stories are sent to him from the field, of course. But even many of
        those are made up by their tellers who wish to gain recognition for
        the trumped up initiations.

        Some years ago, at an Eckankar workshop, someone very close to
        Klemp, working with him at the international office, related a story
        that made me suspect Klemp uses suggestion and hypnotism on the
        members. The entry about himself in his latest book with the
        recycled contents has confirmed this for me.

        What are the methods of the hypnotist? Essentially, the practioner
        immobilizes one's conscious will or sets it aside in order to get to
        the subconscious. Then he issues commands to the subconscious which
        accepts and acts it out without the sanction of the conscious will.
        I detected a similar method, very subtly done, in Klemp's write-up
        about himself as reproduced by Mish in Klemp's new book.

        First, he told his readers in a one sentence paragraph at the
        beginning of a chapter. `I am well aware of my limitations.'

        The function of this sentence and the manner it is delivered is
        meant to engage the conscious, reasoning mind, to get it out of the
        way by giving it something to engage its attention. While it is thus
        engaged, the subconscious is unguarded and exposed. Then is the time
        to issue the suggestions to it.

        So immediately following the single sentence paragraph, he proceeds
        to suggest to the subconscious of the reader the subliminal messages
        about the mahanta such as:

        "The Mahanta [Master Klemp] is the highest state of consciousness
        known to the chronicles of man…"

        "You have only to seek the Mahanta, [Master Klemp] today's Living
        Eck Master. He is God's elect."

        "Think of the Mahanta [Master Klemp] as the Personalized ECK.

        "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master [Master Klemp] also has the
        ability and the authority to alter an individual's fate."

        Klemp also capitalizes on the power of the individual's imagination
        to form and manifest what it forms. This is what makes the spiritual
        exercises work. He reveals this in this statement accompanying the
        spiritual exercises of seeing any of the masters:

        "At first you may feel you have met Rebarzar or one of the ECK
        Masters only in your imagination. But with time and practice, you
        will find they are real people just like you."

        This is a very powerful suggestion, aimed at the power of the
        individual's imagination manifesting a belief through repetition.

        So, once the suggestions have been accepted by the subconscious, the
        imagination proceed to form and manifest them as the person's inner
        and outer experiences. This is how the individual is hooked. One
        will remain so until they finally listen to doubts brought to the
        attention by the Inner Voice and listen to It.

        The evidence to all of this is shown in how the inner and outer
        Eckankar experiences immediately ceases with anyone when he or she
        severs connection and renounces Eckankar.

        Pretujari
      • mishmisha9
        Hi, All! When I read the descriptions that Twitchell applied to his made up ECK Masters, Fubbi and Yaubl, I couldn t help put take a look once more at Klemp s
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 17, 2006
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          Hi, All!

          When I read the descriptions that Twitchell applied to his made up
          ECK Masters, Fubbi and Yaubl, I couldn't help put take a look once
          more at Klemp's new book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" to see how
          Klemp's version of their appearance compares to Twitchell's. I'll
          insert the exerpts from Klemp's book following each of Twitchell's
          descriptions of these eck masters that Prometheus has listed in his
          post below. You can make the comparison between how the two modern
          L.E.M.s/Mahantas viewed these made up eck masters--they do differ.
          Unfortunately, the chelas have to sort it out--which Mahanta should
          they believe? : )

          #######################


          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

          I overlooked some of PT's descriptions (10-16) for Yaubl. Here's the
          update.

          Hi Pretujari,
          I found some old descriptions of Fubbi & Yaubl that don't match the
          ones that Klemp and Company are promoting. Who or what are these
          Eckists seeing? Twitch had the first contact with these "Masters" so
          one would think that his descriptions are the more valid ones!

          Here are Paul's descriptions as stated in "Difficulties of Becoming
          the Living ECK Master."

          Fubbi Quantz (pgs 110-112):
          1. Wears a high turban
          2. Long white robe
          3. Does Not appear to people or gives instructions
          4. Very busy with the Shariyat
          5. Awfully busy with spiritual development of the planet
          6. 1,000 years old (close to)
          7. Very tall 6'3"
          8. Very swarthy, long hands, pointed feet
          9. Rebazar was his pupil
          10. Has a very deep rolling voice
          11. Monastery is a long brown building upon a mountain peak &
          overlooks a range of mountains.
          12. Located in Tibet on earth plane-planes fly over but can't see
          it, etc.


          [NOTE: Twitchell DID NOT mention that FUBBI had a BEARD but did
          mention that he wore a HIGH TURBAN!]>

          #### Klemp in "Those Wonderful ECK Master" describes Fubbi thus:
          from page 26, "He (Fubbi) is a tall, elderly man with white hair and
          beard, and a gentle smile. Good humor gleams in his eyes. Paul
          Twitchell once described him as having a lantern jaw, and the
          description fits. Usually Fubbi appears to spiritual students in a
          white robe that reaches well below the knees. . . . "

          The drawing of Fubbi in Klemp's book does not have him wearing a
          high turban but rather Fubbi has a cloth draped over his head.

          As to Fubbi not appearing to people or giving instructions as
          Twitchell described, Klemp goes on in his chapter on Fubbi with
          stories of chelas seeing him in their dreams and also in the
          physical.

          Klemp also explains Fubbi's God experience on page 28. It has a
          familiar ring to it--I'm sure you will notice as you read Klemp's
          words--he is so original! (LOL):

          "What preparatory steps were involved that carried him (Fubbi) even
          beyond that stage so he coudl enter in the circle of ECK Adepts and
          the Vairagi Masters?
          He was studying at a monastery then, and life had put him where he
          couldn't see a way out to find spiritual freedom. So he made the
          decision to climb a holy mountain in search of enlightenment. He
          supposed that such a mountain peak was as good a place as any to
          continue his quest. When he reached the summit, he creied, 'God, why
          have you forsaken me?'
          After a while there came a voice. It said, 'My son, I haven't
          forsaken you. I've been with you through the ages.' And the
          lightening flashed, and thunder rolled. . . . "

          I have to ask how can anyone read this with a straight face???

          ############


          >
          Yaubl Sacabi (pgs. 113-115):
          1. He doesn't walk upright
          2. His face is a light color, looks very ascetic, and very old
          3. Walks slowly and speaks with great dignity and in a higher than
          normal pitch.
          4. Teacher of Fubbi
          5. 5'8" or 5'10" tall
          6. A sort of square face
          7. 2,000-3,000 years old (not sure)
          8. Very long slender hands
          9. Lives on Agam Des with the God-Eaters in Himalaya Mountains near
          Kashmer border.
          10. Wears a sort of a sandal
          11. Wears a toga type of a gown
          12. Likes to sit in a corner of a public market
          13. Talks from a podium
          14. People will come there via Soul Travel to study the Shariyat
          15. The place (monastery) looks like Canterbury Cathedral in England
          16. Light surrounds him and comes from him


          [NOTE: Twitch DID NOT mention Yaubl's LACK OF HAIR and stated that
          he walked bent over and LOOKED VERY OLD!]>

          ##########

          Klemp describes Yaubl in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," page 145, as
          follows:

          "You will recognize Yaubl at first sight, for his bald head looks a
          bit like a brass dome. A strong nose, thick neck, and well-developed
          muscles in arems and chest outline a capable, rugged appearance."

          The "official" drawing of Yaubl at the beginning of the chapter
          about him does not depict as looking very old as Twitchell says and
          Klemp's describes him as being strong and fit, rather than walking
          bent over like an old man--or maybe he looks strong and walks around
          like a broken down man?? This doesn't make sense does it? : )

          ##############

          >
          Both of these descriptions of Fubbi and Yaubl that Paul Twitchell
          (First LEM/Mahanta and founder of Eckankar) gives don't match with
          the drawings that were done after Twitchell's death! How then can
          these "masters" be believable to Eckists. Who and What are they
          seeing?

          *Eckists are Not seeing the same FUBBI and YAUBL that Twitchell saw!
          Perhaps this is one more reason why Klemp has refused to reprint or
          make available as a e-book "The Difficulties of Becoming the Living
          ECK Master" by Paul Twitchell.

          I agree. It is through suggestion and hypnosis that Eckists are
          seeing what they see. When visions of visitations take place before
          the fact of meeting these "Masters" or HK it is merely that Soul
          (not limited by time and space) is experiencing the influences that
          will be taking place in the future. Deja vu is quite common to every
          Soul!

          Prometheus >

          ########################

          I think this is rather fun to make these comparisons between
          Twitchell and Klemp--what each of these fraudulent mahantas have
          said as they spun their lies and deceptions in keeping chelas hooked
          on these fake "teachings!"

          Mish
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Pretujari, I know that there are many Eck stories that are completely or partially fictitious as well. Yes, there is a lot of pressure on Eckists to have
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 19, 2006
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            Hi Pretujari,
            I know that there are many Eck stories that are completely or
            partially fictitious as well. Yes, there is a lot of pressure on
            Eckists to have outer/inner spiritual experiences. Eckist feel the
            need to have experiences like those in Twitchell's Tiger's Fang or
            of James Davis and Phil Morimitsu. These writings put a lot of
            pressure on Eckists. Although James Davis dropped out of Eckankar it
            doesn't make sense as to why Phil's books aren't offered any longer.
            Maybe it was too much competition for Klemp! Hmmmm. Yes, I think so!
            But why isn't the ECK-Vidya offered anymore or even taught! I guess
            Klemp can't handle it either and just isn't the man and Master that
            Twitchell was! LOL! Yes, there are many vain Eckists that like the
            attention and "honor" that their stories bring them, especially,
            when Klemp publishes them! The stories supposedly point out that one
            has grown spiritually and is ready for a Higher Initiation, however,
            in many cases the stories are just as phoney as the initiations
            received. The ones that advance the most and fastest in Eckankar are
            the really good liars and the most delusional! Therefore, Klemp
            seemed to be a good choice for Gross. Hence, the game goes on and on
            in a neverending cycle of illusion for all Eckists involved.

            Prometheus

            pretujari wrote:

            Hi Prometheus, Mish, and All,
            I am sure Klemp made up the story about the Nigerian Eckist,
            Christy. I have long suspected he has been making some of these
            stories up by the way something about them do not gel, like the
            holes Prometheus you punched in the Christy story. Some of these
            stories are sent to him from the field, of course. But even many of
            those are made up by their tellers who wish to gain recognition for
            the trumped up initiations.

            Some years ago, at an Eckankar workshop, someone very close to
            Klemp, working with him at the international office, related a story
            that made me suspect Klemp uses suggestion and hypnotism on the
            members. The entry about himself in his latest book with the
            recycled contents has confirmed this for me.

            What are the methods of the hypnotist? Essentially, the practioner
            immobilizes one's conscious will or sets it aside in order to get to
            the subconscious. Then he issues commands to the subconscious which
            accepts and acts it out without the sanction of the conscious will.
            I detected a similar method, very subtly done, in Klemp's write-up
            about himself as reproduced by Mish in Klemp's new book.

            First, he told his readers in a one sentence paragraph at the
            beginning of a chapter. `I am well aware of my limitations.'

            The function of this sentence and the manner it is delivered is
            meant to engage the conscious, reasoning mind, to get it out of the
            way by giving it something to engage its attention. While it is thus
            engaged, the subconscious is unguarded and exposed. Then is the time
            to issue the suggestions to it.

            So immediately following the single sentence paragraph, he proceeds
            to suggest to the subconscious of the reader the subliminal messages
            about the mahanta such as:

            "The Mahanta [Master Klemp] is the highest state of consciousness
            known to the chronicles of man…"

            "You have only to seek the Mahanta, [Master Klemp] today's Living
            Eck Master. He is God's elect."

            "Think of the Mahanta [Master Klemp] as the Personalized ECK.

            "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master [Master Klemp] also has the
            ability and the authority to alter an individual's fate."

            Klemp also capitalizes on the power of the individual's imagination
            to form and manifest what it forms. This is what makes the spiritual
            exercises work. He reveals this in this statement accompanying the
            spiritual exercises of seeing any of the masters:

            "At first you may feel you have met Rebarzar or one of the ECK
            Masters only in your imagination. But with time and practice, you
            will find they are real people just like you."

            This is a very powerful suggestion, aimed at the power of the
            individual's imagination manifesting a belief through repetition.

            So, once the suggestions have been accepted by the subconscious, the
            imagination proceed to form and manifest them as the person's inner
            and outer experiences. This is how the individual is hooked. One
            will remain so until they finally listen to doubts brought to the
            attention by the Inner Voice and listen to It.

            The evidence to all of this is shown in how the inner and outer
            Eckankar experiences immediately ceases with anyone when he or she
            severs connection and renounces Eckankar.

            Pretujari
          • prometheus_973
            Hi All, I thought that I would revisit some of the myth that Twitchell created and to show more of the DARK (KAL) SIDE of his character. Of course, Klemp
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 1, 2006
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              Hi All,
              I thought that I would revisit some of the myth that Twitchell
              created and to show more of the DARK (KAL) SIDE of his character. Of
              course, Klemp mentions as fact that Twitchell lied to get into
              Kentucky's Who's Who at age 27 in 1935. From there Twitchell gets
              married in 1941 to his first wife in order to avoid the draft during
              WWII. He figured that with his age and being married that he should
              be able to sit out the war. However, in 1942 Twitchell reluctantly
              joins the Navy at the age of 34.

              While in the Navy Twitchell did more lying and actually sabotaged
              things by creating confusion. Even when in grade school Twitchell
              was passive/aggressive when it came to authority figures and these
              traits, along with the lying and narcissism, continued throughout
              his life. The following quote are by Twitchell in July, 1971 and
              from the book "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master."

              PT: "And I discovered one thing at this time, a very interesting
              thing. That I could control my universe and I COULD CONTROL THE
              UNIVERSE OF EVERYONE ELSE... I found out on setting my mind on
              something, it was going to work and it was going to work exactly MY
              WAY. IF I got into the service, I WASN'T going to be bothered with
              this sort of thing, of going out there on the front line and
              fighting. I WAS GOING TO FIND MYSELF A NICE, COMFORTABLE BERTH
              SOMEPLACE AND BE KEPT THERE... this is one of the acts of POWER that
              all the dictators and everybody else had found, BUT I was using it
              in my own way and not using it as a control over a great number of
              people, EXCEPT TO KEEP MYSELF OUT OF POSITIONS OF DANGER." [my caps.
              pgs. 51-52]

              Twitchell goes on to mention some of the tricks he pulled to get out
              of duty and to create confusion... REMEMBER, THIS IS DURING WARTIME!

              PT: "Well, finally I got into the service... the point was that the
              higher echelon, or the superior officers, were always having a rough
              time with me because I never acted in accordance to what they
              expected of their enlisted personnel. I COULD BLOCK THEM AND CREATE
              ALL SORTS OF FRUSTRATIONS AND CREATE PROBLEMS FOR THEM WHICH THEY
              NEVER KNEW WAS HAPPENING, OR THEY NEVER LAID THE CAUSE TO ME. i
              COULD GET THE PAPERS FUMBLED UP ON MYSELF UNTIL ONE TIME THEY GOT ME
              LOST!... THIS SORT OF THING HAD CREATED A VACUUM WHICH I HAD SET OUT
              TO DO, TO CREATE THE CONFUSION..." [my caps, pg. 53]

              After Twitchell got out of the Navy in worked in D.C. joined some
              different spiritual groups with his first and was initiated by
              Kirpal Singh, got divorced and moved to Seattle, Washington where
              Twit met Gail. Anyway, Twit claims to have worked at a major
              newspaper in Seattle (1963) and is still doing pranks, etc. and is
              still demonstrating passive/agressiveness while creating confusion
              at the age of 55.

              PT: "Well, most of these things that I did were actually PRANKS and
              just whimsical little things I did to STAB those people who had
              swollen heads and who were very unhappy about me being in their way
              like this. I did a lot of BUTTON-PUNCHING and did a lot of things
              there that people didn't like... I was actually playing PRANKS on
              the whole organization and THIS IS THE WAY THAT I'VE ACTUALLY BEEN
              ALL MY LIFE WITH THE ESTABLISHMENT. I just kept punching holes here
              and there where they would feel my punches, and yet sometimes they
              were so subtle that they couldn't be seen and sometimes they were
              just so big they'd hit them on the head with it... They always
              wanted to give me the worst end of everything and yet they
              themselves wanted to make money off my labor so I says I can't work
              this way and I went into writing and eventually I became a writer
              and eventually this writing was what hepled me become the writer
              that I am today." [my caps, pgs. 16-17]

              Well, I think that everyone can see from this why Twitchell
              plagiarized. HE COULDN'T WRITE! It also shows his nature to lie and
              manipulate and that he'd been doing this all his life. After
              Twitchell joined Scientology, met L. Ron Hubbard, years later
              meeting and marrying GAIL in Seattle, it's no wonder that creating
              ECKANKAR and becoming his own boss (and Saviour to the world) would
              be Twitchell's next step! Twitchell's scam/vocation and 'whimsical'
              joke is just passed on down into the dark dank tunnel of deception
              to the new and improved Kal agents (the KLEMPS) who spin the TRUTH
              and who delusionally want to think that they are doing some "good."

              Prometheus



              Mishmisha wrote:

              Hi, All!

              When I read the descriptions that Twitchell applied to his made up
              ECK Masters, Fubbi and Yaubl, I couldn't help put take a look once
              more at Klemp's new book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" to see how
              Klemp's version of their appearance compares to Twitchell's. I'll
              insert the exerpts from Klemp's book following each of Twitchell's
              descriptions of these eck masters that Prometheus has listed in his
              post below. You can make the comparison between how the two modern
              L.E.M.s/Mahantas viewed these made up eck masters--they do differ.
              Unfortunately, the chelas have to sort it out--which Mahanta should
              they believe? : )

              ###################################################################


              Prometheus wrote:

              I overlooked some of PT's descriptions (10-16) for Yaubl. Here's the
              update.

              Hi Pretujari,
              I found some old descriptions of Fubbi & Yaubl that don't match the
              ones that Klemp and Company are promoting. Who or what are these
              Eckists seeing? Twitch had the first contact with these "Masters" so
              one would think that his descriptions are the more valid ones!

              Here are Paul's descriptions as stated in "Difficulties of Becoming
              the Living ECK Master."

              Fubbi Quantz (pgs 110-112):
              1. Wears a high turban
              2. Long white robe
              3. Does Not appear to people or gives instructions
              4. Very busy with the Shariyat
              5. Awfully busy with spiritual development of the planet
              6. 1,000 years old (close to)
              7. Very tall 6'3"
              8. Very swarthy, long hands, pointed feet
              9. Rebazar was his pupil
              10. Has a very deep rolling voice
              11. Monastery is a long brown building upon a mountain peak &
              overlooks a range of mountains.
              12. Located in Tibet on earth plane-planes fly over but can't see
              it, etc.

              [NOTE: Twitchell DID NOT mention that FUBBI had a BEARD but did
              mention that he wore a HIGH TURBAN!]

              Mish: Klemp in "Those Wonderful ECK Master" describes Fubbi thus:
              from page 26, "He (Fubbi) is a tall, elderly man with white hair and
              beard, and a gentle smile. Good humor gleams in his eyes. Paul
              Twitchell once described him as having a lantern jaw, and the
              description fits. Usually Fubbi appears to spiritual students in a
              white robe that reaches well below the knees. . . . "

              The drawing of Fubbi in Klemp's book does not have him wearing a
              high turban but rather Fubbi has a cloth draped over his head.

              As to Fubbi not appearing to people or giving instructions as
              Twitchell described, Klemp goes on in his chapter on Fubbi with
              stories of chelas seeing him in their dreams and also in the
              physical.

              Klemp also explains Fubbi's God experience on page 28. It has a
              familiar ring to it--I'm sure you will notice as you read Klemp's
              words--he is so original! (LOL):

              HK: "What preparatory steps were involved that carried him (Fubbi)
              even beyond that stage so he coudl enter in the circle of ECK Adepts
              and the Vairagi Masters? He was studying at a monastery then, and
              life had put him where he couldn't see a way out to find spiritual
              freedom. So he made the decision to climb a holy mountain in search
              of enlightenment. He supposed that such a mountain peak was as good
              a place as any to continue his quest. When he reached the summit, he
              creied, 'God, why have you forsaken me?' After a while there came a
              voice. It said, 'My son, I haven't forsaken you. I've been with you
              through the ages.' And the lightening flashed, and thunder
              rolled. . . . "

              I have to ask how can anyone read this with a straight face???

              #####################################################################

              Yaubl Sacabi (pgs. 113-115):
              1. He doesn't walk upright
              2. His face is a light color, looks very ascetic, and very old
              3. Walks slowly and speaks with great dignity and in a higher than
              normal pitch.
              4. Teacher of Fubbi
              5. 5'8" or 5'10" tall
              6. A sort of square face
              7. 2,000-3,000 years old (not sure)
              8. Very long slender hands
              9. Lives on Agam Des with the God-Eaters in Himalaya Mountains near
              Kashmer border.
              10. Wears a sort of a sandal
              11. Wears a toga type of a gown
              12. Likes to sit in a corner of a public market
              13. Talks from a podium
              14. People will come there via Soul Travel to study the Shariyat
              15. The place (monastery) looks like Canterbury Cathedral in England
              16. Light surrounds him and comes from him


              [NOTE: Twitch DID NOT mention Yaubl's LACK OF HAIR and stated that
              he walked bent over and LOOKED VERY OLD!]>

              ####################################################################

              Klemp describes Yaubl in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," page 145, as
              follows:

              HK: "You will recognize Yaubl at first sight, for his bald head
              looks a bit like a brass dome. A strong nose, thick neck, and well-
              developed muscles in arems and chest outline a capable, rugged
              appearance."

              The "official" drawing of Yaubl at the beginning of the chapter
              about him does not depict as looking very old as Twitchell says and
              Klemp's describes him as being strong and fit, rather than walking
              bent over like an old man--or maybe he looks strong and walks around
              like a broken down man?? This doesn't make sense does it? : )

              ###################################################################

              Both of these descriptions of Fubbi and Yaubl that Paul Twitchell
              (First LEM/Mahanta and founder of Eckankar) gives don't match with
              the drawings that were done after Twitchell's death! How then can
              these "masters" be believable to Eckists. Who and What are they
              seeing?

              *Eckists are Not seeing the same FUBBI and YAUBL that Twitchell saw!
              Perhaps this is one more reason why Klemp has refused to reprint or
              make available as a e-book "The Difficulties of Becoming the Living
              ECK Master" by Paul Twitchell.

              I agree. It is through suggestion and hypnosis that Eckists are
              seeing what they see. When visions of visitations take place before
              the fact of meeting these "Masters" or HK it is merely that Soul
              (not limited by time and space) is experiencing the influences that
              will be taking place in the future. Deja vu is quite common to every
              Soul!

              Prometheus

              ####################################################################

              I think this is rather fun to make these comparisons between
              Twitchell and Klemp--what each of these fraudulent mahantas have
              said as they spun their lies and deceptions in keeping chelas hooked
              on these fake "teachings!"

              Mish
            • pretujari
              Hi Prometheus, Mish, and All, Thanks for revealing the interesting discrepancies between the descriptions of Twitchell and Klemp of Fubbi Quantz and Yaubl
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 3, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Prometheus, Mish, and All,
                Thanks for revealing the interesting discrepancies between the
                descriptions of Twitchell and Klemp of Fubbi Quantz and Yaubl
                Sacabi. Another clear evidence that these eck masters were contrived
                and fabricated. I mean, the descriptions of Twitchell and Klemp of
                Yaubl Sacabi are like chalk and cheese. LOL

                And Mish, with my Eckankar blinkers removed, I couldn't keep a
                straight face when I read about how Fubbi attained enlightenment.
                Even now am laughing!

                I've wondered certain things about the eck masters over the years.
                For example, are the names we know their spiritual names or secular
                ones? Klemp is Wah Z, Gross is Dap Ren. So is `Gopal Das' a
                spiritual name or secular one? And what is the spiritual name of eck
                master Sudar Singh? Someone ought to ask Klemp this because it has
                never been mentioned. So tell us, Klempus, what is Sudar's spiritual
                name?

                Talking of Gopal Das, the name is patently Indian and sounds more
                like a secular name than a spiritual one. Yet his features doesn't
                suggest he is of Indian extraction. These to mention but a few.

                And did African or Black eckists had to wait till 1999 or
                thereabouts for a photo of African eck master Towart Managi to be
                released?

                Once a scammer and prankster always a scammer and prankster. Did PT
                at one point decided to pull his biggest prank with the creation of
                Eckankar? The evidence that this is so to the objective observer is
                overwhelming. I wonder what Twitchell's thoughts were on Eckankar in
                his private moments.

                What about the big fight Twitchell got into while in an Ashram in
                D.C? According to Klemp, it was a long and brutal fight between the
                future eck master and another member of the spiritual group he
                belonged to at that time. When it was all over, Twitchell suffered
                broken ribs and an eye injury. He was expelled from the compound and
                not long afterwards he and his first wife, Camille Brown, divorced.

                Pretujari




                -- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi All,
                > I thought that I would revisit some of the myth that Twitchell
                > created and to show more of the DARK (KAL) SIDE of his character.
                Of
                > course, Klemp mentions as fact that Twitchell lied to get into
                > Kentucky's Who's Who at age 27 in 1935. From there Twitchell gets
                > married in 1941 to his first wife in order to avoid the draft
                during
                > WWII. He figured that with his age and being married that he
                should
                > be able to sit out the war. However, in 1942 Twitchell reluctantly
                > joins the Navy at the age of 34.
                >
                > While in the Navy Twitchell did more lying and actually sabotaged
                > things by creating confusion. Even when in grade school Twitchell
                > was passive/aggressive when it came to authority figures and these
                > traits, along with the lying and narcissism, continued throughout
                > his life. The following quote are by Twitchell in July, 1971 and
                > from the book "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master."
                >
                > PT: "And I discovered one thing at this time, a very interesting
                > thing. That I could control my universe and I COULD CONTROL THE
                > UNIVERSE OF EVERYONE ELSE... I found out on setting my mind on
                > something, it was going to work and it was going to work exactly
                MY
                > WAY. IF I got into the service, I WASN'T going to be bothered with
                > this sort of thing, of going out there on the front line and
                > fighting. I WAS GOING TO FIND MYSELF A NICE, COMFORTABLE BERTH
                > SOMEPLACE AND BE KEPT THERE... this is one of the acts of POWER
                that
                > all the dictators and everybody else had found, BUT I was using it
                > in my own way and not using it as a control over a great number of
                > people, EXCEPT TO KEEP MYSELF OUT OF POSITIONS OF DANGER." [my
                caps.
                > pgs. 51-52]
                >
                > Twitchell goes on to mention some of the tricks he pulled to get
                out
                > of duty and to create confusion... REMEMBER, THIS IS DURING
                WARTIME!
                >
                > PT: "Well, finally I got into the service... the point was that
                the
                > higher echelon, or the superior officers, were always having a
                rough
                > time with me because I never acted in accordance to what they
                > expected of their enlisted personnel. I COULD BLOCK THEM AND
                CREATE
                > ALL SORTS OF FRUSTRATIONS AND CREATE PROBLEMS FOR THEM WHICH THEY
                > NEVER KNEW WAS HAPPENING, OR THEY NEVER LAID THE CAUSE TO ME. i
                > COULD GET THE PAPERS FUMBLED UP ON MYSELF UNTIL ONE TIME THEY GOT
                ME
                > LOST!... THIS SORT OF THING HAD CREATED A VACUUM WHICH I HAD SET
                OUT
                > TO DO, TO CREATE THE CONFUSION..." [my caps, pg. 53]
                >
                > After Twitchell got out of the Navy in worked in D.C. joined some
                > different spiritual groups with his first and was initiated by
                > Kirpal Singh, got divorced and moved to Seattle, Washington where
                > Twit met Gail. Anyway, Twit claims to have worked at a major
                > newspaper in Seattle (1963) and is still doing pranks, etc. and is
                > still demonstrating passive/agressiveness while creating confusion
                > at the age of 55.
                >
                > PT: "Well, most of these things that I did were actually PRANKS
                and
                > just whimsical little things I did to STAB those people who had
                > swollen heads and who were very unhappy about me being in their
                way
                > like this. I did a lot of BUTTON-PUNCHING and did a lot of things
                > there that people didn't like... I was actually playing PRANKS on
                > the whole organization and THIS IS THE WAY THAT I'VE ACTUALLY BEEN
                > ALL MY LIFE WITH THE ESTABLISHMENT. I just kept punching holes
                here
                > and there where they would feel my punches, and yet sometimes they
                > were so subtle that they couldn't be seen and sometimes they were
                > just so big they'd hit them on the head with it... They always
                > wanted to give me the worst end of everything and yet they
                > themselves wanted to make money off my labor so I says I can't
                work
                > this way and I went into writing and eventually I became a writer
                > and eventually this writing was what hepled me become the writer
                > that I am today." [my caps, pgs. 16-17]
                >
                > Well, I think that everyone can see from this why Twitchell
                > plagiarized. HE COULDN'T WRITE! It also shows his nature to lie
                and
                > manipulate and that he'd been doing this all his life. After
                > Twitchell joined Scientology, met L. Ron Hubbard, years later
                > meeting and marrying GAIL in Seattle, it's no wonder that creating
                > ECKANKAR and becoming his own boss (and Saviour to the world)
                would
                > be Twitchell's next step! Twitchell's scam/vocation
                and 'whimsical'
                > joke is just passed on down into the dark dank tunnel of deception
                > to the new and improved Kal agents (the KLEMPS) who spin the TRUTH
                > and who delusionally want to think that they are doing
                some "good."
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                >
                > Mishmisha wrote:
                >
                > Hi, All!
                >
                > When I read the descriptions that Twitchell applied to his made up
                > ECK Masters, Fubbi and Yaubl, I couldn't help put take a look once
                > more at Klemp's new book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" to see how
                > Klemp's version of their appearance compares to Twitchell's. I'll
                > insert the exerpts from Klemp's book following each of Twitchell's
                > descriptions of these eck masters that Prometheus has listed in
                his
                > post below. You can make the comparison between how the two modern
                > L.E.M.s/Mahantas viewed these made up eck masters--they do differ.
                > Unfortunately, the chelas have to sort it out--which Mahanta
                should
                > they believe? : )
                >
                > ###################################################################
                >
                >
                > Prometheus wrote:
                >
                > I overlooked some of PT's descriptions (10-16) for Yaubl. Here's
                the
                > update.
                >
                > Hi Pretujari,
                > I found some old descriptions of Fubbi & Yaubl that don't match
                the
                > ones that Klemp and Company are promoting. Who or what are these
                > Eckists seeing? Twitch had the first contact with these "Masters"
                so
                > one would think that his descriptions are the more valid ones!
                >
                > Here are Paul's descriptions as stated in "Difficulties of
                Becoming
                > the Living ECK Master."
                >
                > Fubbi Quantz (pgs 110-112):
                > 1. Wears a high turban
                > 2. Long white robe
                > 3. Does Not appear to people or gives instructions
                > 4. Very busy with the Shariyat
                > 5. Awfully busy with spiritual development of the planet
                > 6. 1,000 years old (close to)
                > 7. Very tall 6'3"
                > 8. Very swarthy, long hands, pointed feet
                > 9. Rebazar was his pupil
                > 10. Has a very deep rolling voice
                > 11. Monastery is a long brown building upon a mountain peak &
                > overlooks a range of mountains.
                > 12. Located in Tibet on earth plane-planes fly over but can't see
                > it, etc.
                >
                > [NOTE: Twitchell DID NOT mention that FUBBI had a BEARD but did
                > mention that he wore a HIGH TURBAN!]
                >
                > Mish: Klemp in "Those Wonderful ECK Master" describes Fubbi thus:
                > from page 26, "He (Fubbi) is a tall, elderly man with white hair
                and
                > beard, and a gentle smile. Good humor gleams in his eyes. Paul
                > Twitchell once described him as having a lantern jaw, and the
                > description fits. Usually Fubbi appears to spiritual students in a
                > white robe that reaches well below the knees. . . . "
                >
                > The drawing of Fubbi in Klemp's book does not have him wearing a
                > high turban but rather Fubbi has a cloth draped over his head.
                >
                > As to Fubbi not appearing to people or giving instructions as
                > Twitchell described, Klemp goes on in his chapter on Fubbi with
                > stories of chelas seeing him in their dreams and also in the
                > physical.
                >
                > Klemp also explains Fubbi's God experience on page 28. It has a
                > familiar ring to it--I'm sure you will notice as you read Klemp's
                > words--he is so original! (LOL):
                >
                > HK: "What preparatory steps were involved that carried him (Fubbi)
                > even beyond that stage so he coudl enter in the circle of ECK
                Adepts
                > and the Vairagi Masters? He was studying at a monastery then, and
                > life had put him where he couldn't see a way out to find spiritual
                > freedom. So he made the decision to climb a holy mountain in
                search
                > of enlightenment. He supposed that such a mountain peak was as
                good
                > a place as any to continue his quest. When he reached the summit,
                he
                > creied, 'God, why have you forsaken me?' After a while there came
                a
                > voice. It said, 'My son, I haven't forsaken you. I've been with
                you
                > through the ages.' And the lightening flashed, and thunder
                > rolled. . . . "
                >
                > I have to ask how can anyone read this with a straight face???
                >
                >
                #####################################################################
                >
                > Yaubl Sacabi (pgs. 113-115):
                > 1. He doesn't walk upright
                > 2. His face is a light color, looks very ascetic, and very old
                > 3. Walks slowly and speaks with great dignity and in a higher
                than
                > normal pitch.
                > 4. Teacher of Fubbi
                > 5. 5'8" or 5'10" tall
                > 6. A sort of square face
                > 7. 2,000-3,000 years old (not sure)
                > 8. Very long slender hands
                > 9. Lives on Agam Des with the God-Eaters in Himalaya Mountains
                near
                > Kashmer border.
                > 10. Wears a sort of a sandal
                > 11. Wears a toga type of a gown
                > 12. Likes to sit in a corner of a public market
                > 13. Talks from a podium
                > 14. People will come there via Soul Travel to study the Shariyat
                > 15. The place (monastery) looks like Canterbury Cathedral in
                England
                > 16. Light surrounds him and comes from him
                >
                >
                > [NOTE: Twitch DID NOT mention Yaubl's LACK OF HAIR and stated that
                > he walked bent over and LOOKED VERY OLD!]>
                >
                >
                ####################################################################
                >
                > Klemp describes Yaubl in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," page 145,
                as
                > follows:
                >
                > HK: "You will recognize Yaubl at first sight, for his bald head
                > looks a bit like a brass dome. A strong nose, thick neck, and well-
                > developed muscles in arems and chest outline a capable, rugged
                > appearance."
                >
                > The "official" drawing of Yaubl at the beginning of the chapter
                > about him does not depict as looking very old as Twitchell says
                and
                > Klemp's describes him as being strong and fit, rather than walking
                > bent over like an old man--or maybe he looks strong and walks
                around
                > like a broken down man?? This doesn't make sense does it? : )
                >
                > ###################################################################
                >
                > Both of these descriptions of Fubbi and Yaubl that Paul Twitchell
                > (First LEM/Mahanta and founder of Eckankar) gives don't match with
                > the drawings that were done after Twitchell's death! How then can
                > these "masters" be believable to Eckists. Who and What are they
                > seeing?
                >
                > *Eckists are Not seeing the same FUBBI and YAUBL that Twitchell
                saw!
                > Perhaps this is one more reason why Klemp has refused to reprint
                or
                > make available as a e-book "The Difficulties of Becoming the
                Living
                > ECK Master" by Paul Twitchell.
                >
                > I agree. It is through suggestion and hypnosis that Eckists are
                > seeing what they see. When visions of visitations take place
                before
                > the fact of meeting these "Masters" or HK it is merely that Soul
                > (not limited by time and space) is experiencing the influences
                that
                > will be taking place in the future. Deja vu is quite common to
                every
                > Soul!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                ####################################################################
                >
                > I think this is rather fun to make these comparisons between
                > Twitchell and Klemp--what each of these fraudulent mahantas have
                > said as they spun their lies and deceptions in keeping chelas
                hooked
                > on these fake "teachings!"
                >
                > Mish
                >
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