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Klemp uses suggestion and hypnotism

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  • pretujari
    Hi Prometheus, Mish, and All, I am sure Klemp made up the story about the Nigerian Eckist, Christy. I have long suspected he has been making some of these
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 13, 2006
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      Hi Prometheus, Mish, and All,
      I am sure Klemp made up the story about the Nigerian Eckist, Christy.
      I have long suspected he has been making some of these stories up by
      the way something about them do not gel, like the holes Prometheus
      you punched in the Christy story. Some of these stories are sent to
      him from the field, of course. But even many of those are made up by
      their tellers who wish to gain recognition for the trumped up
      initiations.

      Some years ago, at an Eckankar workshop, someone very close to Klemp,
      working with him at the international office, related a story that
      made me suspect Klemp uses suggestion and hypnotism on the members.
      The entry about himself in his latest book with the recycled contents
      has confirmed this for me.

      What are the methods of the hypnotist? Essentially, the practioner
      immobilizes one's conscious will or sets it aside in order to get to
      the subconscious. Then he issues commands to the subconscious which
      accepts and acts it out without the sanction of the conscious will. I
      detected a similar method, very subtly done, in Klemp's write-up
      about himself as reproduced by Mish in Klemp's new book.

      First, he told his readers in a one sentence paragraph at the
      beginning of a chapter. `I am well aware of my limitations.'

      The function of this sentence and the manner it is delivered is meant
      to engage the conscious, reasoning mind, to get it out of the way by
      giving it something to engage its attention. While it is thus
      engaged, the subconscious is unguarded and exposed. Then is the time
      to issue the suggestions to it.

      So immediately following the single sentence paragraph, he proceeds
      to suggest to the subconscious of the reader the subliminal messages
      about the mahanta such as:

      "The Mahanta [Master Klemp] is the highest state of consciousness
      known to the chronicles of man…"

      "You have only to seek the Mahanta, [Master Klemp] today's Living Eck
      Master. He is God's elect."

      "Think of the Mahanta [Master Klemp] as the Personalized ECK.

      "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master [Master Klemp] also has the
      ability and the authority to alter an individual's fate."

      Klemp also capitalizes on the power of the individual's imagination
      to form and manifest what it forms. This is what makes the spiritual
      exercises work. He reveals this in this statement accompanying the
      spiritual exercises of seeing any of the masters:

      "At first you may feel you have met Rebarzar or one of the ECK
      Masters only in your imagination. But with time and practice, you
      will find they are real people just like you."

      This is a very powerful suggestion, aimed at the power of the
      individual's imagination manifesting a belief through repetition.

      So, once the suggestions have been accepted by the subconscious, the
      imagination proceed to form and manifest them as the person's inner
      and outer experiences. This is how the individual is hooked. One will
      remain so until they finally listen to doubts brought to the
      attention by the Inner Voice and listen to It.

      The evidence to all of this is shown in how the inner and outer
      Eckankar experiences immediately ceases with anyone when he or she
      severs connection and renounces Eckankar.

      Pretujari
    • mishmisha9
      Hello Pretujari and All! Pretujari makes some excellent and interesting points about Klemp s use of suggestion and hypnotism to manipulate and control chelas
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 13, 2006
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        Hello Pretujari and All!

        Pretujari makes some excellent and interesting points about Klemp's
        use of suggestion and hypnotism to manipulate and control chelas'
        thoughts. I believe, as well, that many of the stories are made up
        or at least embellished. Also, I have known eckists who orchestrate
        events in order to create a "spiritual" story so they can send it in
        to HK with the hopes of it being used by the master! Sort of like
        some of America's Funniest Home Videos that are contrived! LOL!

        Recently on an eck chat site, there has been discussion on how to
        accomplish successful vahana work. An eck leader in one state said
        that they want one eckist for every five newcomers at an intro. Each
        eckist is supposed to be able to share 3 personal stories. The eck
        leader says that if an eckist doesn't have 3 personal stories, they
        can cheat by using the ones that HK has used from other eckists. So
        when considering that some of those stories are made-up, and then
        they are being "borrowed" by other eckists in order to create a
        fantastical intro for seekers, the entire vahana effort becomes
        nothing but lies and distortions. The lies just grow bigger and
        bigger, but eckists are told it is okay to "cheat" if it can pull in
        new members. It all comes down to suckering in more people to the
        cult--it has little if anything to do with being honest and
        spiritual! I found the encouragement to "cheat" disgusting.

        I am working on a new post with more of HK's comments on using the
        creative imagination--from "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." The book
        indeed is an excellent tool that demonstrates Klemp's use of
        suggestion and hypnotism to those who are willing to believe his
        crap!

        Mish

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"
        <pretujari@...> wrote:

        Hi Prometheus, Mish, and All,

        I am sure Klemp made up the story about the Nigerian Eckist,
        Christy. I have long suspected he has been making some of these
        stories up by the way something about them do not gel, like the
        holes Prometheus you punched in the Christy story. Some of these
        stories are sent to him from the field, of course. But even many of
        those are made up by their tellers who wish to gain recognition for
        the trumped up initiations.

        Some years ago, at an Eckankar workshop, someone very close to
        Klemp, working with him at the international office, related a story
        that made me suspect Klemp uses suggestion and hypnotism on the
        members. The entry about himself in his latest book with the
        recycled contents has confirmed this for me.

        What are the methods of the hypnotist? Essentially, the practioner
        immobilizes one's conscious will or sets it aside in order to get to
        the subconscious. Then he issues commands to the subconscious which
        accepts and acts it out without the sanction of the conscious will.
        I detected a similar method, very subtly done, in Klemp's write-up
        about himself as reproduced by Mish in Klemp's new book.

        First, he told his readers in a one sentence paragraph at the
        beginning of a chapter. `I am well aware of my limitations.'

        The function of this sentence and the manner it is delivered is
        meant to engage the conscious, reasoning mind, to get it out of the
        way by giving it something to engage its attention. While it is thus
        engaged, the subconscious is unguarded and exposed. Then is the time
        to issue the suggestions to it.

        So immediately following the single sentence paragraph, he proceeds
        to suggest to the subconscious of the reader the subliminal messages
        about the mahanta such as:

        "The Mahanta [Master Klemp] is the highest state of consciousness
        known to the chronicles of man…"

        "You have only to seek the Mahanta, [Master Klemp] today's Living
        Eck Master. He is God's elect."

        "Think of the Mahanta [Master Klemp] as the Personalized ECK.

        "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master [Master Klemp] also has the
        ability and the authority to alter an individual's fate."

        Klemp also capitalizes on the power of the individual's imagination
        to form and manifest what it forms. This is what makes the spiritual
        exercises work. He reveals this in this statement accompanying the
        spiritual exercises of seeing any of the masters:

        "At first you may feel you have met Rebarzar or one of the ECK
        Masters only in your imagination. But with time and practice, you
        will find they are real people just like you."

        This is a very powerful suggestion, aimed at the power of the
        individual's imagination manifesting a belief through repetition.

        So, once the suggestions have been accepted by the subconscious, the
        imagination proceed to form and manifest them as the person's inner
        and outer experiences. This is how the individual is hooked. One
        will remain so until they finally listen to doubts brought to the
        attention by the Inner Voice and listen to It.

        The evidence to all of this is shown in how the inner and outer
        Eckankar experiences immediately ceases with anyone when he or she
        severs connection and renounces Eckankar.

        Pretujari
        >
      • prometheus_973
        I overlooked some of PT s descriptions (10-16) for Yaubl. Here s the update. Hi Pretujari, I found some old descriptions of Fubbi & Yaubl that don t match the
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 17, 2006
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          I overlooked some of PT's descriptions (10-16) for Yaubl. Here's the
          update.

          Hi Pretujari,
          I found some old descriptions of Fubbi & Yaubl that don't match the
          ones that Klemp and Company are promoting. Who or what are these
          Eckists seeing? Twitch had the first contact with these "Masters" so
          one would think that his descriptions are the more valid ones!

          Here are Paul's descriptions as stated in "Difficulties of Becoming
          the Living ECK Master."

          Fubbi Quantz (pgs 110-112):
          1. Wears a high turban
          2. Long white robe
          3. Does Not appear to people or gives instructions
          4. Very busy with the Shariyat
          5. Awfully busy with spiritual development of the planet
          6. 1,000 years old (close to)
          7. Very tall 6'3"
          8. Very swarthy, long hands, pointed feet
          9. Rebazar was his pupil
          10. Has a very deep rolling voice
          11. Monastery is a long brown building upon a mountain peak &
          overlooks a range of mountains.
          12. Located in Tibet on earth plane-planes fly over but can't see
          it, etc.


          [NOTE: Twitchell DID NOT mention that FUBBI had a BEARD but did
          mention that he wore a HIGH TURBAN!]


          Yaubl Sacabi (pgs. 113-115):
          1. He doesn't walk upright
          2. His face is a light color, looks very ascetic, and very old
          3. Walks slowly and speaks with great dignity and in a higher than
          normal pitch.
          4. Teacher of Fubbi
          5. 5'8" or 5'10" tall
          6. A sort of square face
          7. 2,000-3,000 years old (not sure)
          8. Very long slender hands
          9. Lives on Agam Des with the God-Eaters in Himalaya Mountains near
          Kashmer border.
          10. Wears a sort of a sandal
          11. Wears a toga type of a gown
          12. Likes to sit in a corner of a public market
          13. Talks from a podium
          14. People will come there via Soul Travel to study the Shariyat
          15. The place (monastery) looks like Canterbury Cathedral in England
          16. Light surrounds him and comes from him


          [NOTE: Twitch DID NOT mention Yaubl's LACK OF HAIR and stated that
          he walked bent over and LOOKED VERY OLD!]


          Both of these descriptions of Fubbi and Yaubl that Paul Twitchell
          (First LEM/Mahanta and founder of Eckankar) gives don't match with
          the drawings that were done after Twitchell's death! How then can
          these "masters" be believable to Eckists. Who and What are they
          seeing?

          *Eckists are Not seeing the same FUBBI and YAUBL that Twitchell saw!
          Perhaps this is one more reason why Klemp has refused to reprint or
          make available as a e-book "The Difficulties of Becoming the Living
          ECK Master" by Paul Twitchell.

          I agree. It is through suggestion and hypnosis that Eckists are
          seeing what they see. When visions of visitations take place before
          the fact of meeting these "Masters" or HK it is merely that Soul
          (not limited by time and space) is experiencing the influences that
          will be taking place in the future. Deja vu is quite common to every
          Soul!

          Prometheus





          Pretujari wrote:
          Hi Prometheus, Mish, and All,
          I am sure Klemp made up the story about the Nigerian Eckist,
          Christy. I have long suspected he has been making some of these
          stories up by the way something about them do not gel, like the
          holes Prometheus you punched in the Christy story. Some of these
          stories are sent to him from the field, of course. But even many of
          those are made up by their tellers who wish to gain recognition for
          the trumped up initiations.

          Some years ago, at an Eckankar workshop, someone very close to
          Klemp, working with him at the international office, related a story
          that made me suspect Klemp uses suggestion and hypnotism on the
          members. The entry about himself in his latest book with the
          recycled contents has confirmed this for me.

          What are the methods of the hypnotist? Essentially, the practioner
          immobilizes one's conscious will or sets it aside in order to get to
          the subconscious. Then he issues commands to the subconscious which
          accepts and acts it out without the sanction of the conscious will.
          I detected a similar method, very subtly done, in Klemp's write-up
          about himself as reproduced by Mish in Klemp's new book.

          First, he told his readers in a one sentence paragraph at the
          beginning of a chapter. `I am well aware of my limitations.'

          The function of this sentence and the manner it is delivered is
          meant to engage the conscious, reasoning mind, to get it out of the
          way by giving it something to engage its attention. While it is thus
          engaged, the subconscious is unguarded and exposed. Then is the time
          to issue the suggestions to it.

          So immediately following the single sentence paragraph, he proceeds
          to suggest to the subconscious of the reader the subliminal messages
          about the mahanta such as:

          "The Mahanta [Master Klemp] is the highest state of consciousness
          known to the chronicles of man…"

          "You have only to seek the Mahanta, [Master Klemp] today's Living
          Eck Master. He is God's elect."

          "Think of the Mahanta [Master Klemp] as the Personalized ECK.

          "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master [Master Klemp] also has the
          ability and the authority to alter an individual's fate."

          Klemp also capitalizes on the power of the individual's imagination
          to form and manifest what it forms. This is what makes the spiritual
          exercises work. He reveals this in this statement accompanying the
          spiritual exercises of seeing any of the masters:

          "At first you may feel you have met Rebarzar or one of the ECK
          Masters only in your imagination. But with time and practice, you
          will find they are real people just like you."

          This is a very powerful suggestion, aimed at the power of the
          individual's imagination manifesting a belief through repetition.

          So, once the suggestions have been accepted by the subconscious, the
          imagination proceed to form and manifest them as the person's inner
          and outer experiences. This is how the individual is hooked. One
          will remain so until they finally listen to doubts brought to the
          attention by the Inner Voice and listen to It.

          The evidence to all of this is shown in how the inner and outer
          Eckankar experiences immediately ceases with anyone when he or she
          severs connection and renounces Eckankar.

          Pretujari
        • mishmisha9
          Hi, All! When I read the descriptions that Twitchell applied to his made up ECK Masters, Fubbi and Yaubl, I couldn t help put take a look once more at Klemp s
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 17, 2006
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            Hi, All!

            When I read the descriptions that Twitchell applied to his made up
            ECK Masters, Fubbi and Yaubl, I couldn't help put take a look once
            more at Klemp's new book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" to see how
            Klemp's version of their appearance compares to Twitchell's. I'll
            insert the exerpts from Klemp's book following each of Twitchell's
            descriptions of these eck masters that Prometheus has listed in his
            post below. You can make the comparison between how the two modern
            L.E.M.s/Mahantas viewed these made up eck masters--they do differ.
            Unfortunately, the chelas have to sort it out--which Mahanta should
            they believe? : )

            #######################


            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

            I overlooked some of PT's descriptions (10-16) for Yaubl. Here's the
            update.

            Hi Pretujari,
            I found some old descriptions of Fubbi & Yaubl that don't match the
            ones that Klemp and Company are promoting. Who or what are these
            Eckists seeing? Twitch had the first contact with these "Masters" so
            one would think that his descriptions are the more valid ones!

            Here are Paul's descriptions as stated in "Difficulties of Becoming
            the Living ECK Master."

            Fubbi Quantz (pgs 110-112):
            1. Wears a high turban
            2. Long white robe
            3. Does Not appear to people or gives instructions
            4. Very busy with the Shariyat
            5. Awfully busy with spiritual development of the planet
            6. 1,000 years old (close to)
            7. Very tall 6'3"
            8. Very swarthy, long hands, pointed feet
            9. Rebazar was his pupil
            10. Has a very deep rolling voice
            11. Monastery is a long brown building upon a mountain peak &
            overlooks a range of mountains.
            12. Located in Tibet on earth plane-planes fly over but can't see
            it, etc.


            [NOTE: Twitchell DID NOT mention that FUBBI had a BEARD but did
            mention that he wore a HIGH TURBAN!]>

            #### Klemp in "Those Wonderful ECK Master" describes Fubbi thus:
            from page 26, "He (Fubbi) is a tall, elderly man with white hair and
            beard, and a gentle smile. Good humor gleams in his eyes. Paul
            Twitchell once described him as having a lantern jaw, and the
            description fits. Usually Fubbi appears to spiritual students in a
            white robe that reaches well below the knees. . . . "

            The drawing of Fubbi in Klemp's book does not have him wearing a
            high turban but rather Fubbi has a cloth draped over his head.

            As to Fubbi not appearing to people or giving instructions as
            Twitchell described, Klemp goes on in his chapter on Fubbi with
            stories of chelas seeing him in their dreams and also in the
            physical.

            Klemp also explains Fubbi's God experience on page 28. It has a
            familiar ring to it--I'm sure you will notice as you read Klemp's
            words--he is so original! (LOL):

            "What preparatory steps were involved that carried him (Fubbi) even
            beyond that stage so he coudl enter in the circle of ECK Adepts and
            the Vairagi Masters?
            He was studying at a monastery then, and life had put him where he
            couldn't see a way out to find spiritual freedom. So he made the
            decision to climb a holy mountain in search of enlightenment. He
            supposed that such a mountain peak was as good a place as any to
            continue his quest. When he reached the summit, he creied, 'God, why
            have you forsaken me?'
            After a while there came a voice. It said, 'My son, I haven't
            forsaken you. I've been with you through the ages.' And the
            lightening flashed, and thunder rolled. . . . "

            I have to ask how can anyone read this with a straight face???

            ############


            >
            Yaubl Sacabi (pgs. 113-115):
            1. He doesn't walk upright
            2. His face is a light color, looks very ascetic, and very old
            3. Walks slowly and speaks with great dignity and in a higher than
            normal pitch.
            4. Teacher of Fubbi
            5. 5'8" or 5'10" tall
            6. A sort of square face
            7. 2,000-3,000 years old (not sure)
            8. Very long slender hands
            9. Lives on Agam Des with the God-Eaters in Himalaya Mountains near
            Kashmer border.
            10. Wears a sort of a sandal
            11. Wears a toga type of a gown
            12. Likes to sit in a corner of a public market
            13. Talks from a podium
            14. People will come there via Soul Travel to study the Shariyat
            15. The place (monastery) looks like Canterbury Cathedral in England
            16. Light surrounds him and comes from him


            [NOTE: Twitch DID NOT mention Yaubl's LACK OF HAIR and stated that
            he walked bent over and LOOKED VERY OLD!]>

            ##########

            Klemp describes Yaubl in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," page 145, as
            follows:

            "You will recognize Yaubl at first sight, for his bald head looks a
            bit like a brass dome. A strong nose, thick neck, and well-developed
            muscles in arems and chest outline a capable, rugged appearance."

            The "official" drawing of Yaubl at the beginning of the chapter
            about him does not depict as looking very old as Twitchell says and
            Klemp's describes him as being strong and fit, rather than walking
            bent over like an old man--or maybe he looks strong and walks around
            like a broken down man?? This doesn't make sense does it? : )

            ##############

            >
            Both of these descriptions of Fubbi and Yaubl that Paul Twitchell
            (First LEM/Mahanta and founder of Eckankar) gives don't match with
            the drawings that were done after Twitchell's death! How then can
            these "masters" be believable to Eckists. Who and What are they
            seeing?

            *Eckists are Not seeing the same FUBBI and YAUBL that Twitchell saw!
            Perhaps this is one more reason why Klemp has refused to reprint or
            make available as a e-book "The Difficulties of Becoming the Living
            ECK Master" by Paul Twitchell.

            I agree. It is through suggestion and hypnosis that Eckists are
            seeing what they see. When visions of visitations take place before
            the fact of meeting these "Masters" or HK it is merely that Soul
            (not limited by time and space) is experiencing the influences that
            will be taking place in the future. Deja vu is quite common to every
            Soul!

            Prometheus >

            ########################

            I think this is rather fun to make these comparisons between
            Twitchell and Klemp--what each of these fraudulent mahantas have
            said as they spun their lies and deceptions in keeping chelas hooked
            on these fake "teachings!"

            Mish
          • prometheus_973
            Hi Pretujari, I know that there are many Eck stories that are completely or partially fictitious as well. Yes, there is a lot of pressure on Eckists to have
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 19, 2006
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              Hi Pretujari,
              I know that there are many Eck stories that are completely or
              partially fictitious as well. Yes, there is a lot of pressure on
              Eckists to have outer/inner spiritual experiences. Eckist feel the
              need to have experiences like those in Twitchell's Tiger's Fang or
              of James Davis and Phil Morimitsu. These writings put a lot of
              pressure on Eckists. Although James Davis dropped out of Eckankar it
              doesn't make sense as to why Phil's books aren't offered any longer.
              Maybe it was too much competition for Klemp! Hmmmm. Yes, I think so!
              But why isn't the ECK-Vidya offered anymore or even taught! I guess
              Klemp can't handle it either and just isn't the man and Master that
              Twitchell was! LOL! Yes, there are many vain Eckists that like the
              attention and "honor" that their stories bring them, especially,
              when Klemp publishes them! The stories supposedly point out that one
              has grown spiritually and is ready for a Higher Initiation, however,
              in many cases the stories are just as phoney as the initiations
              received. The ones that advance the most and fastest in Eckankar are
              the really good liars and the most delusional! Therefore, Klemp
              seemed to be a good choice for Gross. Hence, the game goes on and on
              in a neverending cycle of illusion for all Eckists involved.

              Prometheus

              pretujari wrote:

              Hi Prometheus, Mish, and All,
              I am sure Klemp made up the story about the Nigerian Eckist,
              Christy. I have long suspected he has been making some of these
              stories up by the way something about them do not gel, like the
              holes Prometheus you punched in the Christy story. Some of these
              stories are sent to him from the field, of course. But even many of
              those are made up by their tellers who wish to gain recognition for
              the trumped up initiations.

              Some years ago, at an Eckankar workshop, someone very close to
              Klemp, working with him at the international office, related a story
              that made me suspect Klemp uses suggestion and hypnotism on the
              members. The entry about himself in his latest book with the
              recycled contents has confirmed this for me.

              What are the methods of the hypnotist? Essentially, the practioner
              immobilizes one's conscious will or sets it aside in order to get to
              the subconscious. Then he issues commands to the subconscious which
              accepts and acts it out without the sanction of the conscious will.
              I detected a similar method, very subtly done, in Klemp's write-up
              about himself as reproduced by Mish in Klemp's new book.

              First, he told his readers in a one sentence paragraph at the
              beginning of a chapter. `I am well aware of my limitations.'

              The function of this sentence and the manner it is delivered is
              meant to engage the conscious, reasoning mind, to get it out of the
              way by giving it something to engage its attention. While it is thus
              engaged, the subconscious is unguarded and exposed. Then is the time
              to issue the suggestions to it.

              So immediately following the single sentence paragraph, he proceeds
              to suggest to the subconscious of the reader the subliminal messages
              about the mahanta such as:

              "The Mahanta [Master Klemp] is the highest state of consciousness
              known to the chronicles of man…"

              "You have only to seek the Mahanta, [Master Klemp] today's Living
              Eck Master. He is God's elect."

              "Think of the Mahanta [Master Klemp] as the Personalized ECK.

              "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master [Master Klemp] also has the
              ability and the authority to alter an individual's fate."

              Klemp also capitalizes on the power of the individual's imagination
              to form and manifest what it forms. This is what makes the spiritual
              exercises work. He reveals this in this statement accompanying the
              spiritual exercises of seeing any of the masters:

              "At first you may feel you have met Rebarzar or one of the ECK
              Masters only in your imagination. But with time and practice, you
              will find they are real people just like you."

              This is a very powerful suggestion, aimed at the power of the
              individual's imagination manifesting a belief through repetition.

              So, once the suggestions have been accepted by the subconscious, the
              imagination proceed to form and manifest them as the person's inner
              and outer experiences. This is how the individual is hooked. One
              will remain so until they finally listen to doubts brought to the
              attention by the Inner Voice and listen to It.

              The evidence to all of this is shown in how the inner and outer
              Eckankar experiences immediately ceases with anyone when he or she
              severs connection and renounces Eckankar.

              Pretujari
            • prometheus_973
              Hi All, I thought that I would revisit some of the myth that Twitchell created and to show more of the DARK (KAL) SIDE of his character. Of course, Klemp
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 1, 2006
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                Hi All,
                I thought that I would revisit some of the myth that Twitchell
                created and to show more of the DARK (KAL) SIDE of his character. Of
                course, Klemp mentions as fact that Twitchell lied to get into
                Kentucky's Who's Who at age 27 in 1935. From there Twitchell gets
                married in 1941 to his first wife in order to avoid the draft during
                WWII. He figured that with his age and being married that he should
                be able to sit out the war. However, in 1942 Twitchell reluctantly
                joins the Navy at the age of 34.

                While in the Navy Twitchell did more lying and actually sabotaged
                things by creating confusion. Even when in grade school Twitchell
                was passive/aggressive when it came to authority figures and these
                traits, along with the lying and narcissism, continued throughout
                his life. The following quote are by Twitchell in July, 1971 and
                from the book "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master."

                PT: "And I discovered one thing at this time, a very interesting
                thing. That I could control my universe and I COULD CONTROL THE
                UNIVERSE OF EVERYONE ELSE... I found out on setting my mind on
                something, it was going to work and it was going to work exactly MY
                WAY. IF I got into the service, I WASN'T going to be bothered with
                this sort of thing, of going out there on the front line and
                fighting. I WAS GOING TO FIND MYSELF A NICE, COMFORTABLE BERTH
                SOMEPLACE AND BE KEPT THERE... this is one of the acts of POWER that
                all the dictators and everybody else had found, BUT I was using it
                in my own way and not using it as a control over a great number of
                people, EXCEPT TO KEEP MYSELF OUT OF POSITIONS OF DANGER." [my caps.
                pgs. 51-52]

                Twitchell goes on to mention some of the tricks he pulled to get out
                of duty and to create confusion... REMEMBER, THIS IS DURING WARTIME!

                PT: "Well, finally I got into the service... the point was that the
                higher echelon, or the superior officers, were always having a rough
                time with me because I never acted in accordance to what they
                expected of their enlisted personnel. I COULD BLOCK THEM AND CREATE
                ALL SORTS OF FRUSTRATIONS AND CREATE PROBLEMS FOR THEM WHICH THEY
                NEVER KNEW WAS HAPPENING, OR THEY NEVER LAID THE CAUSE TO ME. i
                COULD GET THE PAPERS FUMBLED UP ON MYSELF UNTIL ONE TIME THEY GOT ME
                LOST!... THIS SORT OF THING HAD CREATED A VACUUM WHICH I HAD SET OUT
                TO DO, TO CREATE THE CONFUSION..." [my caps, pg. 53]

                After Twitchell got out of the Navy in worked in D.C. joined some
                different spiritual groups with his first and was initiated by
                Kirpal Singh, got divorced and moved to Seattle, Washington where
                Twit met Gail. Anyway, Twit claims to have worked at a major
                newspaper in Seattle (1963) and is still doing pranks, etc. and is
                still demonstrating passive/agressiveness while creating confusion
                at the age of 55.

                PT: "Well, most of these things that I did were actually PRANKS and
                just whimsical little things I did to STAB those people who had
                swollen heads and who were very unhappy about me being in their way
                like this. I did a lot of BUTTON-PUNCHING and did a lot of things
                there that people didn't like... I was actually playing PRANKS on
                the whole organization and THIS IS THE WAY THAT I'VE ACTUALLY BEEN
                ALL MY LIFE WITH THE ESTABLISHMENT. I just kept punching holes here
                and there where they would feel my punches, and yet sometimes they
                were so subtle that they couldn't be seen and sometimes they were
                just so big they'd hit them on the head with it... They always
                wanted to give me the worst end of everything and yet they
                themselves wanted to make money off my labor so I says I can't work
                this way and I went into writing and eventually I became a writer
                and eventually this writing was what hepled me become the writer
                that I am today." [my caps, pgs. 16-17]

                Well, I think that everyone can see from this why Twitchell
                plagiarized. HE COULDN'T WRITE! It also shows his nature to lie and
                manipulate and that he'd been doing this all his life. After
                Twitchell joined Scientology, met L. Ron Hubbard, years later
                meeting and marrying GAIL in Seattle, it's no wonder that creating
                ECKANKAR and becoming his own boss (and Saviour to the world) would
                be Twitchell's next step! Twitchell's scam/vocation and 'whimsical'
                joke is just passed on down into the dark dank tunnel of deception
                to the new and improved Kal agents (the KLEMPS) who spin the TRUTH
                and who delusionally want to think that they are doing some "good."

                Prometheus



                Mishmisha wrote:

                Hi, All!

                When I read the descriptions that Twitchell applied to his made up
                ECK Masters, Fubbi and Yaubl, I couldn't help put take a look once
                more at Klemp's new book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" to see how
                Klemp's version of their appearance compares to Twitchell's. I'll
                insert the exerpts from Klemp's book following each of Twitchell's
                descriptions of these eck masters that Prometheus has listed in his
                post below. You can make the comparison between how the two modern
                L.E.M.s/Mahantas viewed these made up eck masters--they do differ.
                Unfortunately, the chelas have to sort it out--which Mahanta should
                they believe? : )

                ###################################################################


                Prometheus wrote:

                I overlooked some of PT's descriptions (10-16) for Yaubl. Here's the
                update.

                Hi Pretujari,
                I found some old descriptions of Fubbi & Yaubl that don't match the
                ones that Klemp and Company are promoting. Who or what are these
                Eckists seeing? Twitch had the first contact with these "Masters" so
                one would think that his descriptions are the more valid ones!

                Here are Paul's descriptions as stated in "Difficulties of Becoming
                the Living ECK Master."

                Fubbi Quantz (pgs 110-112):
                1. Wears a high turban
                2. Long white robe
                3. Does Not appear to people or gives instructions
                4. Very busy with the Shariyat
                5. Awfully busy with spiritual development of the planet
                6. 1,000 years old (close to)
                7. Very tall 6'3"
                8. Very swarthy, long hands, pointed feet
                9. Rebazar was his pupil
                10. Has a very deep rolling voice
                11. Monastery is a long brown building upon a mountain peak &
                overlooks a range of mountains.
                12. Located in Tibet on earth plane-planes fly over but can't see
                it, etc.

                [NOTE: Twitchell DID NOT mention that FUBBI had a BEARD but did
                mention that he wore a HIGH TURBAN!]

                Mish: Klemp in "Those Wonderful ECK Master" describes Fubbi thus:
                from page 26, "He (Fubbi) is a tall, elderly man with white hair and
                beard, and a gentle smile. Good humor gleams in his eyes. Paul
                Twitchell once described him as having a lantern jaw, and the
                description fits. Usually Fubbi appears to spiritual students in a
                white robe that reaches well below the knees. . . . "

                The drawing of Fubbi in Klemp's book does not have him wearing a
                high turban but rather Fubbi has a cloth draped over his head.

                As to Fubbi not appearing to people or giving instructions as
                Twitchell described, Klemp goes on in his chapter on Fubbi with
                stories of chelas seeing him in their dreams and also in the
                physical.

                Klemp also explains Fubbi's God experience on page 28. It has a
                familiar ring to it--I'm sure you will notice as you read Klemp's
                words--he is so original! (LOL):

                HK: "What preparatory steps were involved that carried him (Fubbi)
                even beyond that stage so he coudl enter in the circle of ECK Adepts
                and the Vairagi Masters? He was studying at a monastery then, and
                life had put him where he couldn't see a way out to find spiritual
                freedom. So he made the decision to climb a holy mountain in search
                of enlightenment. He supposed that such a mountain peak was as good
                a place as any to continue his quest. When he reached the summit, he
                creied, 'God, why have you forsaken me?' After a while there came a
                voice. It said, 'My son, I haven't forsaken you. I've been with you
                through the ages.' And the lightening flashed, and thunder
                rolled. . . . "

                I have to ask how can anyone read this with a straight face???

                #####################################################################

                Yaubl Sacabi (pgs. 113-115):
                1. He doesn't walk upright
                2. His face is a light color, looks very ascetic, and very old
                3. Walks slowly and speaks with great dignity and in a higher than
                normal pitch.
                4. Teacher of Fubbi
                5. 5'8" or 5'10" tall
                6. A sort of square face
                7. 2,000-3,000 years old (not sure)
                8. Very long slender hands
                9. Lives on Agam Des with the God-Eaters in Himalaya Mountains near
                Kashmer border.
                10. Wears a sort of a sandal
                11. Wears a toga type of a gown
                12. Likes to sit in a corner of a public market
                13. Talks from a podium
                14. People will come there via Soul Travel to study the Shariyat
                15. The place (monastery) looks like Canterbury Cathedral in England
                16. Light surrounds him and comes from him


                [NOTE: Twitch DID NOT mention Yaubl's LACK OF HAIR and stated that
                he walked bent over and LOOKED VERY OLD!]>

                ####################################################################

                Klemp describes Yaubl in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," page 145, as
                follows:

                HK: "You will recognize Yaubl at first sight, for his bald head
                looks a bit like a brass dome. A strong nose, thick neck, and well-
                developed muscles in arems and chest outline a capable, rugged
                appearance."

                The "official" drawing of Yaubl at the beginning of the chapter
                about him does not depict as looking very old as Twitchell says and
                Klemp's describes him as being strong and fit, rather than walking
                bent over like an old man--or maybe he looks strong and walks around
                like a broken down man?? This doesn't make sense does it? : )

                ###################################################################

                Both of these descriptions of Fubbi and Yaubl that Paul Twitchell
                (First LEM/Mahanta and founder of Eckankar) gives don't match with
                the drawings that were done after Twitchell's death! How then can
                these "masters" be believable to Eckists. Who and What are they
                seeing?

                *Eckists are Not seeing the same FUBBI and YAUBL that Twitchell saw!
                Perhaps this is one more reason why Klemp has refused to reprint or
                make available as a e-book "The Difficulties of Becoming the Living
                ECK Master" by Paul Twitchell.

                I agree. It is through suggestion and hypnosis that Eckists are
                seeing what they see. When visions of visitations take place before
                the fact of meeting these "Masters" or HK it is merely that Soul
                (not limited by time and space) is experiencing the influences that
                will be taking place in the future. Deja vu is quite common to every
                Soul!

                Prometheus

                ####################################################################

                I think this is rather fun to make these comparisons between
                Twitchell and Klemp--what each of these fraudulent mahantas have
                said as they spun their lies and deceptions in keeping chelas hooked
                on these fake "teachings!"

                Mish
              • pretujari
                Hi Prometheus, Mish, and All, Thanks for revealing the interesting discrepancies between the descriptions of Twitchell and Klemp of Fubbi Quantz and Yaubl
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 3, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Prometheus, Mish, and All,
                  Thanks for revealing the interesting discrepancies between the
                  descriptions of Twitchell and Klemp of Fubbi Quantz and Yaubl
                  Sacabi. Another clear evidence that these eck masters were contrived
                  and fabricated. I mean, the descriptions of Twitchell and Klemp of
                  Yaubl Sacabi are like chalk and cheese. LOL

                  And Mish, with my Eckankar blinkers removed, I couldn't keep a
                  straight face when I read about how Fubbi attained enlightenment.
                  Even now am laughing!

                  I've wondered certain things about the eck masters over the years.
                  For example, are the names we know their spiritual names or secular
                  ones? Klemp is Wah Z, Gross is Dap Ren. So is `Gopal Das' a
                  spiritual name or secular one? And what is the spiritual name of eck
                  master Sudar Singh? Someone ought to ask Klemp this because it has
                  never been mentioned. So tell us, Klempus, what is Sudar's spiritual
                  name?

                  Talking of Gopal Das, the name is patently Indian and sounds more
                  like a secular name than a spiritual one. Yet his features doesn't
                  suggest he is of Indian extraction. These to mention but a few.

                  And did African or Black eckists had to wait till 1999 or
                  thereabouts for a photo of African eck master Towart Managi to be
                  released?

                  Once a scammer and prankster always a scammer and prankster. Did PT
                  at one point decided to pull his biggest prank with the creation of
                  Eckankar? The evidence that this is so to the objective observer is
                  overwhelming. I wonder what Twitchell's thoughts were on Eckankar in
                  his private moments.

                  What about the big fight Twitchell got into while in an Ashram in
                  D.C? According to Klemp, it was a long and brutal fight between the
                  future eck master and another member of the spiritual group he
                  belonged to at that time. When it was all over, Twitchell suffered
                  broken ribs and an eye injury. He was expelled from the compound and
                  not long afterwards he and his first wife, Camille Brown, divorced.

                  Pretujari




                  -- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi All,
                  > I thought that I would revisit some of the myth that Twitchell
                  > created and to show more of the DARK (KAL) SIDE of his character.
                  Of
                  > course, Klemp mentions as fact that Twitchell lied to get into
                  > Kentucky's Who's Who at age 27 in 1935. From there Twitchell gets
                  > married in 1941 to his first wife in order to avoid the draft
                  during
                  > WWII. He figured that with his age and being married that he
                  should
                  > be able to sit out the war. However, in 1942 Twitchell reluctantly
                  > joins the Navy at the age of 34.
                  >
                  > While in the Navy Twitchell did more lying and actually sabotaged
                  > things by creating confusion. Even when in grade school Twitchell
                  > was passive/aggressive when it came to authority figures and these
                  > traits, along with the lying and narcissism, continued throughout
                  > his life. The following quote are by Twitchell in July, 1971 and
                  > from the book "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master."
                  >
                  > PT: "And I discovered one thing at this time, a very interesting
                  > thing. That I could control my universe and I COULD CONTROL THE
                  > UNIVERSE OF EVERYONE ELSE... I found out on setting my mind on
                  > something, it was going to work and it was going to work exactly
                  MY
                  > WAY. IF I got into the service, I WASN'T going to be bothered with
                  > this sort of thing, of going out there on the front line and
                  > fighting. I WAS GOING TO FIND MYSELF A NICE, COMFORTABLE BERTH
                  > SOMEPLACE AND BE KEPT THERE... this is one of the acts of POWER
                  that
                  > all the dictators and everybody else had found, BUT I was using it
                  > in my own way and not using it as a control over a great number of
                  > people, EXCEPT TO KEEP MYSELF OUT OF POSITIONS OF DANGER." [my
                  caps.
                  > pgs. 51-52]
                  >
                  > Twitchell goes on to mention some of the tricks he pulled to get
                  out
                  > of duty and to create confusion... REMEMBER, THIS IS DURING
                  WARTIME!
                  >
                  > PT: "Well, finally I got into the service... the point was that
                  the
                  > higher echelon, or the superior officers, were always having a
                  rough
                  > time with me because I never acted in accordance to what they
                  > expected of their enlisted personnel. I COULD BLOCK THEM AND
                  CREATE
                  > ALL SORTS OF FRUSTRATIONS AND CREATE PROBLEMS FOR THEM WHICH THEY
                  > NEVER KNEW WAS HAPPENING, OR THEY NEVER LAID THE CAUSE TO ME. i
                  > COULD GET THE PAPERS FUMBLED UP ON MYSELF UNTIL ONE TIME THEY GOT
                  ME
                  > LOST!... THIS SORT OF THING HAD CREATED A VACUUM WHICH I HAD SET
                  OUT
                  > TO DO, TO CREATE THE CONFUSION..." [my caps, pg. 53]
                  >
                  > After Twitchell got out of the Navy in worked in D.C. joined some
                  > different spiritual groups with his first and was initiated by
                  > Kirpal Singh, got divorced and moved to Seattle, Washington where
                  > Twit met Gail. Anyway, Twit claims to have worked at a major
                  > newspaper in Seattle (1963) and is still doing pranks, etc. and is
                  > still demonstrating passive/agressiveness while creating confusion
                  > at the age of 55.
                  >
                  > PT: "Well, most of these things that I did were actually PRANKS
                  and
                  > just whimsical little things I did to STAB those people who had
                  > swollen heads and who were very unhappy about me being in their
                  way
                  > like this. I did a lot of BUTTON-PUNCHING and did a lot of things
                  > there that people didn't like... I was actually playing PRANKS on
                  > the whole organization and THIS IS THE WAY THAT I'VE ACTUALLY BEEN
                  > ALL MY LIFE WITH THE ESTABLISHMENT. I just kept punching holes
                  here
                  > and there where they would feel my punches, and yet sometimes they
                  > were so subtle that they couldn't be seen and sometimes they were
                  > just so big they'd hit them on the head with it... They always
                  > wanted to give me the worst end of everything and yet they
                  > themselves wanted to make money off my labor so I says I can't
                  work
                  > this way and I went into writing and eventually I became a writer
                  > and eventually this writing was what hepled me become the writer
                  > that I am today." [my caps, pgs. 16-17]
                  >
                  > Well, I think that everyone can see from this why Twitchell
                  > plagiarized. HE COULDN'T WRITE! It also shows his nature to lie
                  and
                  > manipulate and that he'd been doing this all his life. After
                  > Twitchell joined Scientology, met L. Ron Hubbard, years later
                  > meeting and marrying GAIL in Seattle, it's no wonder that creating
                  > ECKANKAR and becoming his own boss (and Saviour to the world)
                  would
                  > be Twitchell's next step! Twitchell's scam/vocation
                  and 'whimsical'
                  > joke is just passed on down into the dark dank tunnel of deception
                  > to the new and improved Kal agents (the KLEMPS) who spin the TRUTH
                  > and who delusionally want to think that they are doing
                  some "good."
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Mishmisha wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi, All!
                  >
                  > When I read the descriptions that Twitchell applied to his made up
                  > ECK Masters, Fubbi and Yaubl, I couldn't help put take a look once
                  > more at Klemp's new book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" to see how
                  > Klemp's version of their appearance compares to Twitchell's. I'll
                  > insert the exerpts from Klemp's book following each of Twitchell's
                  > descriptions of these eck masters that Prometheus has listed in
                  his
                  > post below. You can make the comparison between how the two modern
                  > L.E.M.s/Mahantas viewed these made up eck masters--they do differ.
                  > Unfortunately, the chelas have to sort it out--which Mahanta
                  should
                  > they believe? : )
                  >
                  > ###################################################################
                  >
                  >
                  > Prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > I overlooked some of PT's descriptions (10-16) for Yaubl. Here's
                  the
                  > update.
                  >
                  > Hi Pretujari,
                  > I found some old descriptions of Fubbi & Yaubl that don't match
                  the
                  > ones that Klemp and Company are promoting. Who or what are these
                  > Eckists seeing? Twitch had the first contact with these "Masters"
                  so
                  > one would think that his descriptions are the more valid ones!
                  >
                  > Here are Paul's descriptions as stated in "Difficulties of
                  Becoming
                  > the Living ECK Master."
                  >
                  > Fubbi Quantz (pgs 110-112):
                  > 1. Wears a high turban
                  > 2. Long white robe
                  > 3. Does Not appear to people or gives instructions
                  > 4. Very busy with the Shariyat
                  > 5. Awfully busy with spiritual development of the planet
                  > 6. 1,000 years old (close to)
                  > 7. Very tall 6'3"
                  > 8. Very swarthy, long hands, pointed feet
                  > 9. Rebazar was his pupil
                  > 10. Has a very deep rolling voice
                  > 11. Monastery is a long brown building upon a mountain peak &
                  > overlooks a range of mountains.
                  > 12. Located in Tibet on earth plane-planes fly over but can't see
                  > it, etc.
                  >
                  > [NOTE: Twitchell DID NOT mention that FUBBI had a BEARD but did
                  > mention that he wore a HIGH TURBAN!]
                  >
                  > Mish: Klemp in "Those Wonderful ECK Master" describes Fubbi thus:
                  > from page 26, "He (Fubbi) is a tall, elderly man with white hair
                  and
                  > beard, and a gentle smile. Good humor gleams in his eyes. Paul
                  > Twitchell once described him as having a lantern jaw, and the
                  > description fits. Usually Fubbi appears to spiritual students in a
                  > white robe that reaches well below the knees. . . . "
                  >
                  > The drawing of Fubbi in Klemp's book does not have him wearing a
                  > high turban but rather Fubbi has a cloth draped over his head.
                  >
                  > As to Fubbi not appearing to people or giving instructions as
                  > Twitchell described, Klemp goes on in his chapter on Fubbi with
                  > stories of chelas seeing him in their dreams and also in the
                  > physical.
                  >
                  > Klemp also explains Fubbi's God experience on page 28. It has a
                  > familiar ring to it--I'm sure you will notice as you read Klemp's
                  > words--he is so original! (LOL):
                  >
                  > HK: "What preparatory steps were involved that carried him (Fubbi)
                  > even beyond that stage so he coudl enter in the circle of ECK
                  Adepts
                  > and the Vairagi Masters? He was studying at a monastery then, and
                  > life had put him where he couldn't see a way out to find spiritual
                  > freedom. So he made the decision to climb a holy mountain in
                  search
                  > of enlightenment. He supposed that such a mountain peak was as
                  good
                  > a place as any to continue his quest. When he reached the summit,
                  he
                  > creied, 'God, why have you forsaken me?' After a while there came
                  a
                  > voice. It said, 'My son, I haven't forsaken you. I've been with
                  you
                  > through the ages.' And the lightening flashed, and thunder
                  > rolled. . . . "
                  >
                  > I have to ask how can anyone read this with a straight face???
                  >
                  >
                  #####################################################################
                  >
                  > Yaubl Sacabi (pgs. 113-115):
                  > 1. He doesn't walk upright
                  > 2. His face is a light color, looks very ascetic, and very old
                  > 3. Walks slowly and speaks with great dignity and in a higher
                  than
                  > normal pitch.
                  > 4. Teacher of Fubbi
                  > 5. 5'8" or 5'10" tall
                  > 6. A sort of square face
                  > 7. 2,000-3,000 years old (not sure)
                  > 8. Very long slender hands
                  > 9. Lives on Agam Des with the God-Eaters in Himalaya Mountains
                  near
                  > Kashmer border.
                  > 10. Wears a sort of a sandal
                  > 11. Wears a toga type of a gown
                  > 12. Likes to sit in a corner of a public market
                  > 13. Talks from a podium
                  > 14. People will come there via Soul Travel to study the Shariyat
                  > 15. The place (monastery) looks like Canterbury Cathedral in
                  England
                  > 16. Light surrounds him and comes from him
                  >
                  >
                  > [NOTE: Twitch DID NOT mention Yaubl's LACK OF HAIR and stated that
                  > he walked bent over and LOOKED VERY OLD!]>
                  >
                  >
                  ####################################################################
                  >
                  > Klemp describes Yaubl in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," page 145,
                  as
                  > follows:
                  >
                  > HK: "You will recognize Yaubl at first sight, for his bald head
                  > looks a bit like a brass dome. A strong nose, thick neck, and well-
                  > developed muscles in arems and chest outline a capable, rugged
                  > appearance."
                  >
                  > The "official" drawing of Yaubl at the beginning of the chapter
                  > about him does not depict as looking very old as Twitchell says
                  and
                  > Klemp's describes him as being strong and fit, rather than walking
                  > bent over like an old man--or maybe he looks strong and walks
                  around
                  > like a broken down man?? This doesn't make sense does it? : )
                  >
                  > ###################################################################
                  >
                  > Both of these descriptions of Fubbi and Yaubl that Paul Twitchell
                  > (First LEM/Mahanta and founder of Eckankar) gives don't match with
                  > the drawings that were done after Twitchell's death! How then can
                  > these "masters" be believable to Eckists. Who and What are they
                  > seeing?
                  >
                  > *Eckists are Not seeing the same FUBBI and YAUBL that Twitchell
                  saw!
                  > Perhaps this is one more reason why Klemp has refused to reprint
                  or
                  > make available as a e-book "The Difficulties of Becoming the
                  Living
                  > ECK Master" by Paul Twitchell.
                  >
                  > I agree. It is through suggestion and hypnosis that Eckists are
                  > seeing what they see. When visions of visitations take place
                  before
                  > the fact of meeting these "Masters" or HK it is merely that Soul
                  > (not limited by time and space) is experiencing the influences
                  that
                  > will be taking place in the future. Deja vu is quite common to
                  every
                  > Soul!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  ####################################################################
                  >
                  > I think this is rather fun to make these comparisons between
                  > Twitchell and Klemp--what each of these fraudulent mahantas have
                  > said as they spun their lies and deceptions in keeping chelas
                  hooked
                  > on these fake "teachings!"
                  >
                  > Mish
                  >
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