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Re: initiations

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  • prometheus_973
    Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before being kicked out by Klemp! ... inner ... needed ... when ... policy ... good ...
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 8, 2006
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      Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983
      just before being kicked out by Klemp!

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Yes, the one outer initiation into an Order is all that is needed.
      > The proof is in the pudding in regard to demonstrating higher
      inner
      > levels of consciousness on the Physical Plane.
      >
      > As far as that RESA's explanation... it seems she was making the
      > excuse that some Eckists got their higher initiations before being
      > ready, and this was (as she said) because the message of Eck
      needed
      > to be spread to the unsuspecting masses. However, this would mean
      > that Klemp and Peter and many others, including the RESA and this
      > H.I., did not really deserve some of their earlier initiations
      > either! Klemp tries to have it both ways. This RESA just didn't
      > think it through to see the implications. Yet, this was the excuse
      > that Klemp once used for H.I. bad behavior and incompetence, or
      when
      > Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th! This excuse is still
      > parroted by his loyal lackeys. However, the "one" initiation
      policy
      > could have avoided much confusion, frustration, and pride. It's
      good
      > that Twitchell didn't see Eckankar lasting this long! <smile>
      >
      > However, I've suggested to Klemp that he needs to make more 8ths
      > into 9ths and most 7ths into 8ths and many 6ths into 7ths. He just
      > needs to anounce this and give the 9ths a special pin to wear.
      That
      > way everyone will know that they are 9ths and they won't have to
      be
      > concerned about breaking the Law of Silence about the 9th and
      losing
      > their initiation! It's so simple that he'll never do it will he!
      LOL!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      > jamie wrote:
      >
      > i had never considered the idea, prometheus, but giving only ONE
      > initiation would have benefited eckankar. everyone would have
      felt
      > more free to authentically learn from one another, rather
      > than 'worshipping' an elite group within the community. the idea
      is
      > that higher initiates have more to say, or more signigicant 'true'
      > things to say. the problem is, some higher initiates are clearly
      > assholes. when i once asked a RESA about an HI in our community,
      > and
      > complained of the HI's behavior, the RESA gave this explanation:
      >
      > "well, back in eck's earlier days many inititations had to be
      given
      > so
      > that the word of eck could be gotten out into the world." in this
      > way,
      > the RESA was dismissing the fact that this HI was a jerk with
      chips.
      >
      > jamie....
      >
    • zzoey75
      Hey prometheus. Some time back there was a discussion here concerning eckankar initiations, inner and outer. If you can remember, can you tell me which
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 27, 2010
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        Hey prometheus. Some time back there was a discussion here concerning eckankar initiations, inner and outer. If you can remember, can you tell me which initiations are considered entirely inner, and which are required to also have an outer initiation with an eck clergy?

        My friend and I are curious about this.

        Thanks, zoey
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Zoey, I can understand the confusion. Klemp likes to keep his flock off-balance and second guessing. Initiations more mental than anything via the
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 30, 2010
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          Hello Zoey,
          I can understand the confusion. Klemp
          likes to keep his flock off-balance and
          second guessing. Initiations more mental
          than anything via the imagination except
          for one's physical membership card with
          the number of one's plane of con. Oh, there
          are also those physical "pink slips" too.

          Basically, 1-9 are inner and outer,
          10-11 are inner, 12 is inner and outer,
          and 13-14 are inner.

          [1-9]
          In The Masters 4 Discourse, Lesson 2
          is the following:

          "Third, the final part of the Ninth
          Initiation occurs in the physical
          world."

          [12th]
          In Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon is this
          on page 226:

          "Voice of Akivasha. The oracle, until
          the first of this century, at a craggy,
          unexplored site called the Oracle of
          Tirmer in the Valley of Shangta in
          northern Tibet. It is here that the
          Rod of ECK Power is passed from
          the departing LEM to his successor
          on October 22 [Twitchell's Birthday],
          at midnight; sometimes called the
          Voice, or Oracle, of Tirmer."

          It should be noted that this is a
          physical, earthly, and "outer" location,
          although, it might be claimed that
          one travels there in the Astral Body
          which resembles one's physical body.
          This is why there are paintings and
          drawings of these people. Any body
          higher than the Astral would not
          otherwise have the same identifiable
          (physical) characteristics.

          It should be noted that in Klemp's
          1987 book, "Soul Travelers of the
          Far Country" on pages 186-187 that
          Klemp states:

          "The Ninth Initiation came on July 22,
          1981. Initiations in ECK beyond the
          Eighth are given ONLY on the inner
          planes."

          Of course, Darwin had to confirm
          HK's 9th on the outer. It seems that
          the 10th and 11th are minor initiations
          since Klemp achieved these between
          July 22, 1981 and October 22, 1981!


          Of course Klemp had to backtrack
          for the Masters 4 Discourse because
          how can one anoint card carrying
          9ths without an "outer" confirmation
          "final" stage?

          Else wise, everyone would be
          running around claiming to be
          a 9ths. It's bad enough that 7ths
          are claiming to be 8ths (on the inner),
          or that 8ths are claiming to be 9ths
          on the inner or that some Eckists
          skip initiations and, thus, there
          are 5ths claiming to be 8ths
          (on the inner).

          I hope that this info and perspective
          has helped to clarify the nonsense
          behind ECK Initiations.

          BTW- It seems that Eckists don't
          really need the Initiations, EK Books
          and Membership Cards, or Zoas,
          or Guidelines, Discourses, or Laws
          or Donations of Coin and Service...
          all they need is love!

          There is a Klemp quote in the
          Jan. 2010 "Letter of Light" that
          states:

          "Love is love. And this is what
          the ECK teachings are all about.
          Purely love, and just love. Simply
          love."

          Yep! All you need is love! Very
          simple and yet so profound!
          Say, wasn't that Jesus' message
          2000 years ago?!

          Prometheus

          zoey wrote:
          initiations

          Hey prometheus. Some time back there was
          a discussion here concerning eckankar
          initiations, inner and outer. If you can remember,
          can you tell me which initiations are considered
          entirely inner, and which are required to also
          have an outer initiation with an eck clergy?

          My friend and I are curious about this.

          Thanks, zoey
        • jonathanjohns96
          Prometheus, I m going to add a few facts from my personal experience in the 1980-1983 time frame to the discussion. In your post just before the one I am
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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            Prometheus,

            I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983 time frame to the discussion.

            In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin] Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before being kicked out by Klemp!"

            I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5 initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.

            Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.

            By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation, but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth. But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to progress people really fast."

            It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without receiving their 5th initiation.

            Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was automatically suspect if not completely wrong.

            Jonathan
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Jonathan, Klemp never did explain when Darwin fell from Grace. Was it prior to Oct. 22, 1981? If so when? It was Klemp s idea to meet in the Sound
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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              Hello Jonathan,
              Klemp never did explain "when" Darwin
              fell from Grace. Was it prior to Oct. 22,
              1981? If so when? It was Klemp's idea
              to meet in the Sound Proof Dark Room
              (Golden-Tongued Wisdom, no ECK!) at
              the ESC to discuss the transition and being
              made the LEM.

              Klemp mentioned, after the fact, when
              he booted Darwin that DG had promoted
              500 to the 5th initiation before their time.
              Actually, if Darwin really was a Black Magician,
              as HK had claimed when DG promoted these
              people, that would indicate that these chelas
              had been initiated into the Black Arts versus
              Eckankar! Nobody ever viewed this or spoke
              of it from that perspective!

              I knew a person who got the 4th and
              then a few months later got the 5th from
              DG. Years later Klemp made this person
              a RESA. However, I had heard that people
              had skipped initiations and this was years
              prior to Darwin's fall. One person who posted
              here on ESA recently, Colleen Russell, made
              it to the 7th in 10 years or less. For some
              reason Klemp sees those promotions as
              necessary and okay but not Darwin's 1983
              promotions. Look at the promotions that
              Klemp got from Darwin! HK's selfish and
              doesn't want anyone else near his rank.

              I knew of one Eckist who got on the wrong
              side of his Klemp-Kal like RESA and remained
              a 4th for 25 years! Currently there are around
              5,000 7th initiates who have been locked into
              that initiation for 20-25 years! Why? Because
              Klemp is mean-spirited and doesn't want to
              share the "wealth."

              Over the years Klemp has made it more
              difficult for H.I.s to advance in initiation
              rank due to the hoops he has them jumping
              through. It's like a circus and he's the ring-
              master! The training requirements, as well as,
              Vahana/Service requirements and holding
              local positions to be noticed makes it difficult
              to advance when one has to play KAL-like
              games and "act as if" in order to get that
              outer pink slip. One cannot receive promotions
              (initiations) by being an ECK Monk. Klemp
              needs his servants/promoters/salespeople.
              There is no room for the purely spiritual seeker!

              Prometheus



              jonathanjohns wrote:
              >
              > Prometheus,
              >
              > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my
              personal experience in the 1980-1983
              time frame to the discussion.
              >
              > In your post just before the one I am
              responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
              Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!"
              And then you followed it up with "Ooops!
              I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th,
              and around 1983 just before being kicked
              out by Klemp!"
              >
              > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so
              I got in on the last few years of Darwin
              Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was
              around 1980/1981 that a member of
              Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was
              promoted directly from 3rd initiate to
              5th initiate. In other words, he skipped
              his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
              later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't
              be certain, but this "3 to 5 initiation" was
              definitely done by Darwin.
              >
              > Also, I heard about one other person
              who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
              interesting thing is that I believe that
              both of these people had been in Eckankar
              for less than 10 years. Eckankar started
              in 1965, so 15-18 years was the absolute
              maximum time the person who spoke to
              me was in Eckankar. Plus, he never spoke
              about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain
              he joined Eckankar after Twitchell's death,
              making his maximum time in Eckankar about
              10-13 years since Darwin started in 1971.
              I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better
              estimate of the time he was a member of
              Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years
              old.
              >
              > By the way, regarding the person, B.S.,
              who personally told me about skipping his
              4th initiation. I asked him how that happened.
              He gave me an explanation, but I don't remember
              what it was. I believe it had something to do
              with the fact that he progressed spiritually so
              fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
              But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said
              something like "the ECK need to progress
              people really fast."
              >
              > It has been mentioned in other posts
              on this message board that things are
              a lot different now, with many members
              of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
              receiving their 5th initiation.
              >
              > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI
              that Darwin gave a lot of initiations out to
              people who didn't really deserve them. Of
              course, during the time when Darwin was
              the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was
              100% accepted by Eckankar's membership,
              but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin
              did or didn't do was automatically suspect
              if not completely wrong.
              >
              > Jonathan

              Prometheus wrote:

              Basically, 1-9 are inner and outer,
              10-11 are inner, 12 is inner and outer,
              and 13-14 are inner.

              [1-9]
              In The Masters 4 Discourse, Lesson 2
              is the following:

              "Third, the final part of the Ninth
              Initiation occurs in the physical
              world."

              [12th]
              In Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon is this
              on page 226:

              "Voice of Akivasha. The oracle, until
              the first of this century, at a craggy,
              unexplored site called the Oracle of
              Tirmer in the Valley of Shangta in
              northern Tibet. It is here that the
              Rod of ECK Power is passed from
              the departing LEM to his successor
              on October 22 [Twitchell's Birthday],
              at midnight; sometimes called the
              Voice, or Oracle, of Tirmer."

              It should be noted that this is a
              physical, earthly, and "outer" location,
              although, it might be claimed that
              one travels there in the Astral Body
              which resembles one's physical body.
              This is why there are paintings and
              drawings of these people. Any body
              higher than the Astral would not
              otherwise have the same identifiable
              (physical) characteristics.

              It should be noted that in Klemp's
              1987 book, "Soul Travelers of the
              Far Country" on pages 186-187 that
              Klemp states:

              "The Ninth Initiation came on July 22,
              1981. Initiations in ECK beyond the
              Eighth are given ONLY on the inner
              planes."

              Of course, Darwin had to confirm
              HK's 9th on the outer. It seems that
              the 10th and 11th are minor initiations
              since Klemp achieved these between
              July 22, 1981 and October 22, 1981!


              Of course Klemp had to backtrack
              for the Masters 4 Discourse because
              how can one anoint card carrying
              9ths without an "outer" confirmation
              "final" stage?

              Else wise, everyone would be
              running around claiming to be
              a 9ths. It's bad enough that 7ths
              are claiming to be 8ths (on the inner),
              or that 8ths are claiming to be 9ths
              on the inner or that some Eckists
              skip initiations and, thus, there
              are 5ths claiming to be 8ths
              (on the inner).
            • jonathanjohns96
              Prometheus, Thanks for your reply. You said I had heard that people had skipped initiations and this was years prior to Darwin s fall. I thought it was about
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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                Prometheus,

                Thanks for your reply. You said "I had heard that people had skipped initiations and this was years prior to Darwin's fall." I thought it was about 1980-1981 when this person told me this, but he might have received his 5th years before. So thank you for your verification that you heard about it years before Darwin's fall. He was a very honest person, I don't doubt that he skipped his 4th, just as he told me that he did. After all, if he was going to lie, he probably would have said that it didn't happen in order to cover up the fact. I wanted to mention it just as a way of attempting to preserve the "true history" of Eckankar. I'm not sure why I care about doing that (for them) but I do. I guess I don't want to see them put out their fabricated history of Eckankar where they say "rumors that people in the past skipped imitations are untrue." I could just see that happening. But I still don't know why I care. I guess I believe the world deserves an honest history of Eckankar. And I certainly don't trust them to do it.

                You also said "One person who posted here on ESA recently, Colleen Russell, made it to the 7th in 10 years or less." That is truly amazing, isn't it? It makes my recollection (and interpretation) of the Eckist I spoke to, B.S., making it to the 5th in 7 to 8 years by 1981 all the more believable. But he was definitely doing all the "right stuff," I feel because he really believed in it. A few years later he went to work for the International office.

                You also said "I knew of one Eckist who got on the wrong side of his Klemp-Kal like RESA and remained a 4th for 25 years!" My experience was that I got my 5th on the "29 year mark." But I did take a five year sabbatical. And I wasn't doing any of the right things. I didn't give talks. I put up some posters with some other people one time. I never volunteered at the Eck center. I did volunteer at an Eckankar booth at a health fair one time. I did attend the Worship Services, at times fairly regularly, but I guess that didn't count for very much.

                Also, I thought the initiation were based on my spiritual progress. I thought Klemp was hard at work on the inner, keeping track of me, much like Santa Clause does. So I had no clue that your next initiation was based on doing volunteer work to promote Eckankar.

                So it truly is amazing to see the differences between now and back in the days when Darwin was the LEM. I think you have already mentioned this many times, but I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that Klemp has become more and more paranoid through the years. And so he demands more and more and more through the years before he even trusts any members. I must admit that when you were discussing the difference between Darwin and today's Klemp, I didn't realize how severe the difference was.

                I'd like to change the subject a little bit. In my last year in Eckankar, we had a "guest" at a worship service, which is something that almost never happened. He was very quiet, middle-aged in his 50s I suppose. I thought he wasn't a member of Eckankar. A week or two later I learned that he was a member, had been for about 20 to 30 years (I can't remember the exact number), but he just never attended official Eckankar activities. I was really surprised. The higher HI who gave me the information about him said that there are a lot of members in the local area like this. By the way, he did live about an hour drive from the center.

                So, Prometheus, I would like to ask you two questions since you were active in the functioning of your Eck center. Were you aware of people like this who had zero involvement in the outer functions of Eckankar? And do you think that these people were commonly passed over for initiations?

                Jonathan
              • prometheus_973
                Hi Jonathan, Okay, I ll give your questions a shot from my perspectives as a former H.I. and EK Leader. Yes, we had people like this turn up every now and then
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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                  Hi Jonathan,
                  Okay, I'll give your questions a shot from my
                  perspectives as a former H.I. and EK Leader.
                  Yes, we had people like this turn up every now
                  and then over the decades. Some had years on
                  me and yet I'd never seen them before. Others
                  were from other parts of the state or had left
                  Eckankar and then returned. Some had been
                  on a rest period, or were on a rest period and
                  didn't know anything "current." Anyone not
                  wanting to stick out like a sore thumb just needs
                  to quote the Shariyat, or talk about the Mahanta's
                  love, or about Surrender and they should fit-in
                  as though they had never been gone.

                  I'll respond to the questions below--


                  Jonathan wrote:
                  I'd like to change the subject a little bit. In my last year in Eckankar, we had
                  a "guest" at a worship service, which is something that almost never happened.
                  He was very quiet, middle-aged in his 50s I suppose. I thought he wasn't a
                  member of Eckankar. A week or two later I learned that he was a member, had been
                  for about 20 to 30 years (I can't remember the exact number), but he just never
                  attended official Eckankar activities. I was really surprised. The higher HI who
                  gave me the information about him said that there are a lot of members in the
                  local area like this. By the way, he did live about an hour drive from the
                  center.

                  So, Prometheus, I would like to ask you two
                  questions since you were active in the functioning
                  of your Eck center.

                  1.) Were you aware of people like this who had
                  zero involvement in the outer functions of Eckankar?


                  P- Yes, at times there I had never met some
                  of those on the ESC's membership list. Others
                  I knew of. Some only came to the ECK Worship
                  Service (EWS) or to Satsang. Sometimes I would
                  try to get them to volunteer by finding out what
                  they might like to do and then I would have that
                  specific coordinator speak to them. It was very
                  important to welcome and befriend them and
                  make them feel at home and want to join in and
                  socialize and to give them a volunteer position
                  so that they would feel needed. I then tried to
                  get them into Satsang Classes. Of course
                  that was another problem because I had to have
                  a Satsang Arahata to teach the class. Some EKists
                  took the Arahata Training, but still hadn't taught
                  a class after two years which, according to the Guidelines,
                  meant that they needed to be retrained. Retraining
                  was a problem because there needed to be trainers
                  available to do the retraining. Everything in Eckankar
                  takes forever to accomplish. And, in the end after
                  everything is said and done, only a handful of people
                  ever join and even fewer renew after the first year.
                  Word of mouth or Klemp getting on the radio or
                  TV would be best, but Klemp is lazy and a faker
                  that can't handle the heat. His main focus is to
                  keep ECKists busy and involved and to sell them
                  more EK materials ($)... to distribute to the trash
                  cans.

                  2.) And do you think that these people were commonly
                  passed over for initiations?

                  P- Well, that depends on who you know as well.
                  I had a 4th who finally became a volunteer after
                  many years of membership. I gave him an important
                  coordinator position. However, he quit the position
                  after six months! One promises that they will stay
                  in the EK position for one year (ending on Oct.22).
                  Apparently he had some pull with some friends of
                  the RESA and I was never called about his initiation.
                  He soon got his 5th! I would never have approved
                  him. His knowledge of the EK teachings were poor
                  and he was a poor example for an EK leader. He
                  did make an attempt to turn over a "new leaf" but
                  it was too little too late. To this day he's still a
                  poor excuse for a H.I., but that's good!

                  Other people who don't volunteer or attend
                  the appropriate training classes for advancement
                  will be passed over. Plus, one has to have an
                  "active" membership. If you're on a rest period
                  then your time-in-grade for advancement is
                  frozen. Also, one has to watch out what they
                  say, where and when, and to whom they say it.
                  Sometimes honestly is not the best policy! If
                  you get put on the RESA's Black List and are
                  passed over you can be in the toilet for "at least"
                  three years or until you prove yourself to the
                  Next RESA.

                  I've seen it happen where the RESA stepped
                  down and people who never had a chance of
                  getting promoted finally got promoted! I've
                  also seen people move to other states and get
                  promoted immediately under a different (nicer)
                  RESA. It happens all the time. Attend enough
                  seminars and talk to enough EK Leaders and
                  you can hear all sorts of "stories" that Klemp
                  doesn't want to hear or know about. So much
                  for the "All Knowing Mahanta!"

                  Yes, I remember back in the mid 80's that
                  there were Circles of Initiation Workshops
                  and that some H.I.s had to pass at being
                  facilitators on certain ones (third & fourth)
                  because they either skipped that initiation
                  or had been in it for only a few months before
                  getting promoted. How can one talk about
                  the trials and tribulations of the 4th when
                  you skipped it or had been in it for a few
                  months?

                  Prometheus





                  jonathan wrote:
                  Prometheus,

                  Thanks for your reply. You said "I had heard that people had skipped initiations
                  and this was years prior to Darwin's fall." I thought it was about 1980-1981
                  when this person told me this, but he might have received his 5th years before.
                  So thank you for your verification that you heard about it years before Darwin's
                  fall. He was a very honest person, I don't doubt that he skipped his 4th, just
                  as he told me that he did. After all, if he was going to lie, he probably would
                  have said that it didn't happen in order to cover up the fact. I wanted to
                  mention it just as a way of attempting to preserve the "true history" of
                  Eckankar. I'm not sure why I care about doing that (for them) but I do. I guess
                  I don't want to see them put out their fabricated history of Eckankar where they
                  say "rumors that people in the past skipped imitations are untrue." I could just
                  see that happening. But I still don't know why I care. I guess I believe the
                  world deserves an honest history of Eckankar. And I certainly don't trust them
                  to do it.

                  You also said "One person who posted here on ESA recently, Colleen Russell, made
                  it to the 7th in 10 years or less." That is truly amazing, isn't it? It makes my
                  recollection (and interpretation) of the Eckist I spoke to, B.S., making it to
                  the 5th in 7 to 8 years by 1981 all the more believable. But he was definitely
                  doing all the "right stuff," I feel because he really believed in it. A few
                  years later he went to work for the International office.

                  You also said "I knew of one Eckist who got on the wrong side of his Klemp-Kal
                  like RESA and remained a 4th for 25 years!" My experience was that I got my 5th
                  on the "29 year mark." But I did take a five year sabbatical. And I wasn't doing
                  any of the right things. I didn't give talks. I put up some posters with some
                  other people one time. I never volunteered at the Eck center. I did volunteer at
                  an Eckankar booth at a health fair one time. I did attend the Worship Services,
                  at times fairly regularly, but I guess that didn't count for very much.

                  Also, I thought the initiation were based on my spiritual progress. I thought
                  Klemp was hard at work on the inner, keeping track of me, much like Santa Clause
                  does. So I had no clue that your next initiation was based on doing volunteer
                  work to promote Eckankar.

                  So it truly is amazing to see the differences between now and back in the days
                  when Darwin was the LEM. I think you have already mentioned this many times, but
                  I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that Klemp has become more and
                  more paranoid through the years. And so he demands more and more and more
                  through the years before he even trusts any members. I must admit that when you
                  were discussing the difference between Darwin and today's Klemp, I didn't
                  realize how severe the difference was.

                  I'd like to change the subject a little bit. In my last year in Eckankar, we had
                  a "guest" at a worship service, which is something that almost never happened.
                  He was very quiet, middle-aged in his 50s I suppose. I thought he wasn't a
                  member of Eckankar. A week or two later I learned that he was a member, had been
                  for about 20 to 30 years (I can't remember the exact number), but he just never
                  attended official Eckankar activities. I was really surprised. The higher HI who
                  gave me the information about him said that there are a lot of members in the
                  local area like this. By the way, he did live about an hour drive from the
                  center.

                  So, Prometheus, I would like to ask you two questions since you were active in
                  the functioning of your Eck center. Were you aware of people like this who had
                  zero involvement in the outer functions of Eckankar? And do you think that these
                  people were commonly passed over for initiations?

                  Jonathan
                • ctecvie
                  Hi Jonathan and all, my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally. She once told him that either she or some people she knew (I m not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Jonathan and all,

                    my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally. She once told him that either she or some people she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th initiations in one day - one or two in the morning and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                    At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates as eckankar was still young. Now there are so many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling - I guess that's why initiations are slowed down so much!

                    It's all about administration and money, and power of course ... :-))
                    Ingrid

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Prometheus,
                    >
                    > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983 time frame to the discussion.
                    >
                    > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin] Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before being kicked out by Klemp!"
                    >
                    > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5 initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                    >
                    > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                    >
                    > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation, but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth. But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to progress people really fast."
                    >
                    > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without receiving their 5th initiation.
                    >
                    > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                    >
                    > Jonathan
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Ingrid and All, Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too. I didn t know that about ECKists getting several initiations in one day. Was that during Paul s
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello Ingrid and All,
                      Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                      I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                      several initiations in one day. Was that
                      during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                      I know that Klemp would never do that...
                      he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                      can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                      residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                      Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                      is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                      exception, but it does set a precedent.

                      IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                      Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                      of 8ths to 7ths?

                      And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                      lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                      be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                      at least 500 8th Initiates.

                      Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                      Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                      doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                      hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                      but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                      mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                      to the ECK Membership let alone say
                      something nice about the former ECK
                      Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                      failed. And when he fails a test like that
                      it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                      His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                      throne.

                      Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                      promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                      Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                      have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                      And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                      threaten his reign HK could have made them
                      all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                      LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/tradition
                      or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                      selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                      stuck in the past.

                      Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                      compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                      his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                      and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                      typical of all religions and their leaders.

                      Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                      Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                      on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                      promise of more initiations leading to God-
                      Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                      Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                      materials and seminars, taking more training,
                      following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                      lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                      is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                      you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                      but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                      like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                      In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                      "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                      one is able to finally see the correlations and
                      the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                      one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                      all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                      until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                      with Divine Spirit.

                      Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                      a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                      or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                      Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                      cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                      heresy! People are executed, even today,
                      by religionists who claim to love God.
                      But, why does God need to be protected?

                      Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                      and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                      weak-minded followers, and are immature
                      Souls.

                      Prometheus


                      ctecvie wrote:
                      Hi Jonathan and all,

                      my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                      She once told him that either she or some people
                      she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                      initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                      and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                      At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                      as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                      many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                      I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                      so much!

                      It's all about administration and money, and power
                      of course ... :-))

                      Ingrid

                      jonathanjohns wrote:
                      >
                      > Prometheus,
                      >
                      > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                      time frame to the discussion.
                      >
                      > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                      Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                      "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                      being kicked out by Klemp!"
                      >
                      > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                      Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                      Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                      initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                      later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                      initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                      >
                      > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                      interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                      Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                      the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                      never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                      Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                      Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                      of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                      >
                      > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                      his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                      but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                      that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                      But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                      progress people really fast."
                      >
                      > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                      lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                      receiving their 5th initiation.
                      >
                      > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                      out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                      Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                      membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                      automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                      >
                      > Jonathan
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello All, I just remembered something that I heard back in the 80s from a member of Klemp s EK Spiritual Council. This 8th said that Harold needed to make
                      Message 10 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello All,
                        I just remembered something that
                        I heard back in the 80s from a
                        member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
                        This 8th said that Harold needed to
                        make more H.I.s in Europe and that
                        he was making exceptions out of
                        necessity. And, HK had promoted
                        one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
                        to the 9th. I never knew why this
                        9th initiation thing was/is such a
                        big secret. It's probably because
                        HK doesn't want to build up any
                        more expectations for those higher
                        initiations anymore than he has
                        already. That's why the "imagination"
                        pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

                        The only Catch to getting and keeping
                        the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
                        he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
                        prevent Klemp from sharing this info
                        with the membership. Twit more than
                        likely started the "no tell" rule because
                        he didn't want others to find out who
                        he had promoted, behind the backs
                        of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
                        Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

                        However, this "no tell" rule has been
                        expanded. No ECKists are supposed
                        to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
                        Initiation openly.This is one reason
                        Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
                        He got the speculation about the 9th
                        out of the way and at the same time
                        prevented any discussion of the matter
                        outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
                        No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
                        outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
                        Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
                        second guessing, or questions and
                        speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
                        If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
                        any future initiations will be put on
                        hold. This is a fact that most long-time
                        H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
                        fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
                        flock and to keep them on task and sell
                        Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
                        or divine insight he wouldn't need his
                        spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
                        mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
                        and EK publications.


                        prometheus wrote:

                        Hello Ingrid and All,
                        Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                        I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                        several initiations in one day. Was that
                        during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                        I know that Klemp would never do that...
                        he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                        can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                        residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                        Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                        is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                        exception, but it does set a precedent.

                        IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                        Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                        of 8ths to 7ths?

                        And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                        lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                        be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                        at least 500 8th Initiates.

                        Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                        Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                        doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                        hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                        but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                        mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                        to the ECK Membership let alone say
                        something nice about the former ECK
                        Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                        failed. And when he fails a test like that
                        it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                        His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                        throne.

                        Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                        promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                        Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                        have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                        And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                        threaten his reign HK could have made them
                        all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                        LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/tradition
                        or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                        selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                        stuck in the past.

                        Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                        compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                        his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                        and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                        typical of all religions and their leaders.

                        Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                        Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                        on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                        promise of more initiations leading to God-
                        Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                        Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                        materials and seminars, taking more training,
                        following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                        lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                        is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                        you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                        but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                        like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                        In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                        "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                        one is able to finally see the correlations and
                        the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                        one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                        all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                        until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                        with Divine Spirit.

                        Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                        a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                        or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                        Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                        cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                        heresy! People are executed, even today,
                        by religionists who claim to love God.
                        But, why does God need to be protected?

                        Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                        and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                        weak-minded followers, and are immature
                        Souls.

                        Prometheus


                        ctecvie wrote:
                        Hi Jonathan and all,

                        my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                        She once told him that either she or some people
                        she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                        initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                        and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                        At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                        as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                        many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                        I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                        so much!

                        It's all about administration and money, and power
                        of course ... :-))

                        Ingrid

                        jonathanjohns wrote:
                        >
                        > Prometheus,
                        >
                        > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                        time frame to the discussion.
                        >
                        > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                        Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                        "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                        being kicked out by Klemp!"
                        >
                        > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                        Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                        Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                        initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                        later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                        initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                        >
                        > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                        interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                        Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                        the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                        never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                        Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                        Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                        of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                        >
                        > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                        his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                        but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                        that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                        But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                        progress people really fast."
                        >
                        > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                        lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                        receiving their 5th initiation.
                        >
                        > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                        out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                        Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                        membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                        automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                        >
                        > Jonathan
                      • Ed Kusi
                        Hi All, This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in Africa too. | personally know five HIs in one country who were jumped from 2nd and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It
                        Message 11 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi All,
                          This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in Africa too. | personally know five HIs in one country who were jumped from 2nd and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It happened in Darwin's time and the reasons given were as already mentioned in related posts.

                          Pretujari

                          --- On Mon, 2/1/10, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: 3rd initiation to 5th initiation (not me) in 1980-1983 time frame
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 2:03 PM

                           

                          Hello All,
                          I just remembered something that
                          I heard back in the 80s from a
                          member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
                          This 8th said that Harold needed to
                          make more H.I.s in Europe and that
                          he was making exceptions out of
                          necessity. And, HK had promoted
                          one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
                          to the 9th. I never knew why this
                          9th initiation thing was/is such a
                          big secret. It's probably because
                          HK doesn't want to build up any
                          more expectations for those higher
                          initiations anymore than he has
                          already. That's why the "imagination"
                          pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

                          The only Catch to getting and keeping
                          the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
                          he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
                          prevent Klemp from sharing this info
                          with the membership. Twit more than
                          likely started the "no tell" rule because
                          he didn't want others to find out who
                          he had promoted, behind the backs
                          of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
                          Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

                          However, this "no tell" rule has been
                          expanded. No ECKists are supposed
                          to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
                          Initiation openly.This is one reason
                          Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
                          He got the speculation about the 9th
                          out of the way and at the same time
                          prevented any discussion of the matter
                          outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
                          No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
                          outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
                          Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
                          second guessing, or questions and
                          speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
                          If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
                          any future initiations will be put on
                          hold. This is a fact that most long-time
                          H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
                          fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
                          flock and to keep them on task and sell
                          Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
                          or divine insight he wouldn't need his
                          spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
                          mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
                          and EK publications.

                          prometheus wrote:

                          Hello Ingrid and All,
                          Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                          I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                          several initiations in one day. Was that
                          during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                          I know that Klemp would never do that...
                          he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                          can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                          residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                          Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                          is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                          exception, but it does set a precedent.

                          IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                          Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                          of 8ths to 7ths?

                          And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                          lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                          be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                          at least 500 8th Initiates.

                          Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                          Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                          doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                          hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                          but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                          mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                          to the ECK Membership let alone say
                          something nice about the former ECK
                          Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                          failed. And when he fails a test like that
                          it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                          His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                          throne.

                          Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                          promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                          Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                          have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                          And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                          threaten his reign HK could have made them
                          all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                          LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/ tradition
                          or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                          selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                          stuck in the past.

                          Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                          compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                          his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                          and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                          typical of all religions and their leaders.

                          Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                          Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                          on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                          promise of more initiations leading to God-
                          Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                          Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                          materials and seminars, taking more training,
                          following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                          lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                          is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                          you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                          but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                          like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                          In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                          "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                          one is able to finally see the correlations and
                          the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                          one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                          all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                          until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                          with Divine Spirit.

                          Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                          a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                          or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                          Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                          cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                          heresy! People are executed, even today,
                          by religionists who claim to love God.
                          But, why does God need to be protected?

                          Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                          and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                          weak-minded followers, and are immature
                          Souls.

                          Prometheus

                          ctecvie wrote:
                          Hi Jonathan and all,

                          my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                          She once told him that either she or some people
                          she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                          initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                          and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                          At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                          as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                          many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                          I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                          so much!

                          It's all about administration and money, and power
                          of course ... :-))

                          Ingrid

                          jonathanjohns wrote:
                          >
                          > Prometheus,
                          >
                          > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                          time frame to the discussion.
                          >
                          > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                          Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                          "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                          being kicked out by Klemp!"
                          >
                          > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                          Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                          Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                          initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                          later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                          initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                          >
                          > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                          interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                          Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                          the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                          never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                          Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                          Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                          of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                          >
                          > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                          his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                          but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                          that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                          But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                          progress people really fast."
                          >
                          > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                          lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                          receiving their 5th initiation.
                          >
                          > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                          out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                          Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                          membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                          automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                          >
                          > Jonathan


                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Ed and All, Now that my memory of this has been refreshed I do recall Klemp mentioning people in Africa being promoted rapidly due to the need for EK
                          Message 12 of 17 , Feb 2, 2010
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                            Hello Ed and All,
                            Now that my memory of this has been
                            refreshed I do recall Klemp mentioning
                            people in Africa being promoted rapidly
                            due to the need for EK Leaders. I had
                            no idea as to how it was being done
                            and that initiations were being skipped!
                            HK would (and still) always say how
                            advanced and natural the Africans' beliefs
                            were. But, from what I've heard, there's
                            a lot of superstition, folk lore, and other
                            beliefs mixed in with the EK teachings.

                            Ed, can you share or elaborate on this?

                            Apparently HK's policy of this skipping
                            of initiations was a sin of omission on
                            Klemp's part. He knew that other EKists
                            wouldn't feel comfortable with this tactic.
                            HK never shared these details with the
                            membership. I guess that the general
                            membership didn't need to know how
                            he was conducting business since he
                            doesn't have to report to anyone for his
                            actions... like the Pope.

                            It just goes to show that the EK Initiations
                            can be manipulated for physical worldly
                            gains... more sales leaders.

                            It is hypocritical of Klemp to bring up
                            the fact that Paul promoted people
                            very rapidly to Higher Initiations due
                            to need when Eckankar was in the
                            early stages. Darwin did the same thing
                            early on and was never criticized for it.
                            When DG's and HK's conflict, in 1983,
                            was coming to a head Darwin promoted
                            500 EKists to the 5th initiation. The
                            problem was really with Klemp's ego.
                            Instead, Klemp made Darwin look like
                            the bad guy on this, too, because of
                            the other things that had taken place.

                            However, as I said before, IF Darwin
                            really was a Black Magician, as the nasty
                            Klempster claimed, that would mean
                            that those 500 EKists DG gave the 5th
                            to had actually been initiated, unknowingly,
                            into the Black Arts. Klemp claimed, at
                            the time, that viewing Darwin's picture
                            or reading his words could have psychic
                            influence over ECKists. Where was Klemp's
                            protection? This is why ECKists don't
                            usually read outside (unapproved) books
                            and info. Klemp has scared them from
                            doing so. But, where's the "protection"
                            from such things? Catch-22 again!

                            Anyway, let's not forget Klemp promoting
                            people in Europe rapidly as well. Plus,
                            after the schism in 1983-1984 Klemp
                            had gaps in EK leadership, due to H.I.s
                            leaving to follow Darwin, and thus
                            promoted his own group of H.I.s as fill-ins.
                            Once again, the promotions (initiations)
                            had nothing to do with Spiritual Growth.

                            Yes, it's interesting to discuss these
                            remembrances and piece together
                            information about the EK Initiations.
                            Klemp's cover-up and omissions on
                            his own policy of skipping initiations
                            is more proof that the initiations aren't
                            what ECKists imagine them to be.
                            The initiations are devalued when
                            the truth about how and why they
                            are manipulated becomes known.

                            Of course, the true blue EKist will
                            deny the truth. They need Eckankar
                            (religion) and will rationalize. They
                            turn a blind-eye to facts and to
                            critical thinking. They want to and
                            need to believe in Eckankar because
                            they don't have a replacement belief.
                            Also, Eckankar is convenient and like
                            all religions it "answers" our questions
                            with dogma that seems to make sense
                            at times. And, the promises (imaginings)
                            and dreams seem better than what other
                            religions seem to teach and offer. But,
                            that never ending "Service/Sales" crap
                            is the real turnoff! Well actually, Klemp
                            promoting his younger looking image
                            in "Tips for ECK Study" and on "The
                            Wisdom Notes" page is a real turn-off!
                            Such vanity!

                            Prometheus

                            Ed Kusi wrote:

                            Hi All,
                            This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in
                            Africa too. | personally know five HIs in
                            one country who were jumped from 2nd
                            and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It happened
                            in Darwin's time and the reasons given
                            were as already mentioned in related posts.

                            Pretujari

                            prometheus wrote:

                            Hello All,
                            I just remembered something that
                            I heard back in the 80s from a
                            member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
                            This 8th said that Harold needed to
                            make more H.I.s in Europe and that
                            he was making exceptions out of
                            necessity. And, HK had promoted
                            one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
                            to the 9th. I never knew why this
                            9th initiation thing was/is such a
                            big secret. It's probably because
                            HK doesn't want to build up any
                            more expectations for those higher
                            initiations anymore than he has
                            already. That's why the "imagination"
                            pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

                            The only Catch to getting and keeping
                            the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
                            he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
                            prevent Klemp from sharing this info
                            with the membership. Twit more than
                            likely started the "no tell" rule because
                            he didn't want others to find out who
                            he had promoted, behind the backs
                            of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
                            Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

                            However, this "no tell" rule has been
                            expanded. No ECKists are supposed
                            to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
                            Initiation openly.This is one reason
                            Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
                            He got the speculation about the 9th
                            out of the way and at the same time
                            prevented any discussion of the matter
                            outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
                            No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
                            outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
                            Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
                            second guessing, or questions and
                            speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
                            If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
                            any future initiations will be put on
                            hold. This is a fact that most long-time
                            H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
                            fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
                            flock and to keep them on task and sell
                            Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
                            or divine insight he wouldn't need his
                            spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
                            mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
                            and EK publications.

                            prometheus wrote:

                            Hello Ingrid and All,
                            Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                            I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                            several initiations in one day. Was that
                            during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                            I know that Klemp would never do that...
                            he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                            can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                            residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                            Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                            is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                            exception, but it does set a precedent.

                            IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                            Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                            of 8ths to 7ths?

                            And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                            lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                            be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                            at least 500 8th Initiates.

                            Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                            Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                            doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                            hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                            but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                            mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                            to the ECK Membership let alone say
                            something nice about the former ECK
                            Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                            failed. And when he fails a test like that
                            it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                            His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                            throne.

                            Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                            promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                            Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                            have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                            And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                            threaten his reign HK could have made them
                            all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                            LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/ tradition
                            or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                            selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                            stuck in the past.

                            Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                            compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                            his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                            and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                            typical of all religions and their leaders.

                            Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                            Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                            on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                            promise of more initiations leading to God-
                            Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                            Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                            materials and seminars, taking more training,
                            following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                            lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                            is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                            you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                            but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                            like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                            In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                            "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                            one is able to finally see the correlations and
                            the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                            one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                            all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                            until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                            with Divine Spirit.

                            Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                            a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                            or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                            Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                            cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                            heresy! People are executed, even today,
                            by religionists who claim to love God.
                            But, why does God need to be protected?

                            Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                            and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                            weak-minded followers, and are immature
                            Souls.

                            Prometheus

                            ctecvie wrote:
                            Hi Jonathan and all,

                            my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                            She once told him that either she or some people
                            she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                            initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                            and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                            At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                            as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                            many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                            I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                            so much!

                            It's all about administration and money, and power
                            of course ... :-))

                            Ingrid

                            jonathanjohns wrote:
                            >
                            > Prometheus,
                            >
                            > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                            time frame to the discussion.
                            >
                            > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                            Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                            "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                            being kicked out by Klemp!"
                            >
                            > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                            Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                            Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                            initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                            later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                            initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                            >
                            > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                            interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                            Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                            the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                            never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                            Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                            Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                            of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                            >
                            > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                            his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                            but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                            that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                            But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                            progress people really fast."
                            >
                            > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                            lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                            receiving their 5th initiation.
                            >
                            > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                            out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                            Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                            membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                            automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                            >
                            > Jonathan
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