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initiations

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  • jjamie1977
    i had never considered the idea, prometheus, but giving only ONE initiation would have benefited eckankar. everyone would have felt more free to authentically
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 8, 2006
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      i had never considered the idea, prometheus, but giving only ONE
      initiation would have benefited eckankar. everyone would have felt
      more free to authentically learn from one another, rather
      than 'worshipping' an elite group within the community. the idea is
      that higher initiates have more to say, or more signigicant 'true'
      things to say. the problem is, some higher initiates are clearly
      assholes. when i once asked a RESA about an HI in our community, and
      complained of the HI's behavior, the RESA gave this explanation:

      "well, back in eck's earlier days many inititations had to be given so
      that the word of eck could be gotten out into the world." in this way,
      the RESA was dismissing the fact that this HI was a jerk with chips.

      jamie....
    • prometheus_973
      Yes, the one outer initiation into an Order is all that is needed. The proof is in the pudding in regard to demonstrating higher inner levels of consciousness
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 8, 2006
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        Yes, the one outer initiation into an Order is all that is needed.
        The proof is in the pudding in regard to demonstrating higher inner
        levels of consciousness on the Physical Plane.

        As far as that RESA's explanation... it seems she was making the
        excuse that some Eckists got their higher initiations before being
        ready, and this was (as she said) because the message of Eck needed
        to be spread to the unsuspecting masses. However, this would mean
        that Klemp and Peter and many others, including the RESA and this
        H.I., did not really deserve some of their earlier initiations
        either! Klemp tries to have it both ways. This RESA just didn't
        think it through to see the implications. Yet, this was the excuse
        that Klemp once used for H.I. bad behavior and incompetence, or when
        Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th! This excuse is still
        parroted by his loyal lackeys. However, the "one" initiation policy
        could have avoided much confusion, frustration, and pride. It's good
        that Twitchell didn't see Eckankar lasting this long! <smile>

        However, I've suggested to Klemp that he needs to make more 8ths
        into 9ths and most 7ths into 8ths and many 6ths into 7ths. He just
        needs to anounce this and give the 9ths a special pin to wear. That
        way everyone will know that they are 9ths and they won't have to be
        concerned about breaking the Law of Silence about the 9th and losing
        their initiation! It's so simple that he'll never do it will he! LOL!

        Prometheus


        jamie wrote:

        i had never considered the idea, prometheus, but giving only ONE
        initiation would have benefited eckankar. everyone would have felt
        more free to authentically learn from one another, rather
        than 'worshipping' an elite group within the community. the idea is
        that higher initiates have more to say, or more signigicant 'true'
        things to say. the problem is, some higher initiates are clearly
        assholes. when i once asked a RESA about an HI in our community,
        and
        complained of the HI's behavior, the RESA gave this explanation:

        "well, back in eck's earlier days many inititations had to be given
        so
        that the word of eck could be gotten out into the world." in this
        way,
        the RESA was dismissing the fact that this HI was a jerk with chips.

        jamie....
      • prometheus_973
        Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before being kicked out by Klemp! ... inner ... needed ... when ... policy ... good ...
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 8, 2006
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          Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983
          just before being kicked out by Klemp!

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Yes, the one outer initiation into an Order is all that is needed.
          > The proof is in the pudding in regard to demonstrating higher
          inner
          > levels of consciousness on the Physical Plane.
          >
          > As far as that RESA's explanation... it seems she was making the
          > excuse that some Eckists got their higher initiations before being
          > ready, and this was (as she said) because the message of Eck
          needed
          > to be spread to the unsuspecting masses. However, this would mean
          > that Klemp and Peter and many others, including the RESA and this
          > H.I., did not really deserve some of their earlier initiations
          > either! Klemp tries to have it both ways. This RESA just didn't
          > think it through to see the implications. Yet, this was the excuse
          > that Klemp once used for H.I. bad behavior and incompetence, or
          when
          > Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th! This excuse is still
          > parroted by his loyal lackeys. However, the "one" initiation
          policy
          > could have avoided much confusion, frustration, and pride. It's
          good
          > that Twitchell didn't see Eckankar lasting this long! <smile>
          >
          > However, I've suggested to Klemp that he needs to make more 8ths
          > into 9ths and most 7ths into 8ths and many 6ths into 7ths. He just
          > needs to anounce this and give the 9ths a special pin to wear.
          That
          > way everyone will know that they are 9ths and they won't have to
          be
          > concerned about breaking the Law of Silence about the 9th and
          losing
          > their initiation! It's so simple that he'll never do it will he!
          LOL!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          > jamie wrote:
          >
          > i had never considered the idea, prometheus, but giving only ONE
          > initiation would have benefited eckankar. everyone would have
          felt
          > more free to authentically learn from one another, rather
          > than 'worshipping' an elite group within the community. the idea
          is
          > that higher initiates have more to say, or more signigicant 'true'
          > things to say. the problem is, some higher initiates are clearly
          > assholes. when i once asked a RESA about an HI in our community,
          > and
          > complained of the HI's behavior, the RESA gave this explanation:
          >
          > "well, back in eck's earlier days many inititations had to be
          given
          > so
          > that the word of eck could be gotten out into the world." in this
          > way,
          > the RESA was dismissing the fact that this HI was a jerk with
          chips.
          >
          > jamie....
          >
        • zzoey75
          Hey prometheus. Some time back there was a discussion here concerning eckankar initiations, inner and outer. If you can remember, can you tell me which
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 27, 2010
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            Hey prometheus. Some time back there was a discussion here concerning eckankar initiations, inner and outer. If you can remember, can you tell me which initiations are considered entirely inner, and which are required to also have an outer initiation with an eck clergy?

            My friend and I are curious about this.

            Thanks, zoey
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Zoey, I can understand the confusion. Klemp likes to keep his flock off-balance and second guessing. Initiations more mental than anything via the
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 30, 2010
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              Hello Zoey,
              I can understand the confusion. Klemp
              likes to keep his flock off-balance and
              second guessing. Initiations more mental
              than anything via the imagination except
              for one's physical membership card with
              the number of one's plane of con. Oh, there
              are also those physical "pink slips" too.

              Basically, 1-9 are inner and outer,
              10-11 are inner, 12 is inner and outer,
              and 13-14 are inner.

              [1-9]
              In The Masters 4 Discourse, Lesson 2
              is the following:

              "Third, the final part of the Ninth
              Initiation occurs in the physical
              world."

              [12th]
              In Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon is this
              on page 226:

              "Voice of Akivasha. The oracle, until
              the first of this century, at a craggy,
              unexplored site called the Oracle of
              Tirmer in the Valley of Shangta in
              northern Tibet. It is here that the
              Rod of ECK Power is passed from
              the departing LEM to his successor
              on October 22 [Twitchell's Birthday],
              at midnight; sometimes called the
              Voice, or Oracle, of Tirmer."

              It should be noted that this is a
              physical, earthly, and "outer" location,
              although, it might be claimed that
              one travels there in the Astral Body
              which resembles one's physical body.
              This is why there are paintings and
              drawings of these people. Any body
              higher than the Astral would not
              otherwise have the same identifiable
              (physical) characteristics.

              It should be noted that in Klemp's
              1987 book, "Soul Travelers of the
              Far Country" on pages 186-187 that
              Klemp states:

              "The Ninth Initiation came on July 22,
              1981. Initiations in ECK beyond the
              Eighth are given ONLY on the inner
              planes."

              Of course, Darwin had to confirm
              HK's 9th on the outer. It seems that
              the 10th and 11th are minor initiations
              since Klemp achieved these between
              July 22, 1981 and October 22, 1981!


              Of course Klemp had to backtrack
              for the Masters 4 Discourse because
              how can one anoint card carrying
              9ths without an "outer" confirmation
              "final" stage?

              Else wise, everyone would be
              running around claiming to be
              a 9ths. It's bad enough that 7ths
              are claiming to be 8ths (on the inner),
              or that 8ths are claiming to be 9ths
              on the inner or that some Eckists
              skip initiations and, thus, there
              are 5ths claiming to be 8ths
              (on the inner).

              I hope that this info and perspective
              has helped to clarify the nonsense
              behind ECK Initiations.

              BTW- It seems that Eckists don't
              really need the Initiations, EK Books
              and Membership Cards, or Zoas,
              or Guidelines, Discourses, or Laws
              or Donations of Coin and Service...
              all they need is love!

              There is a Klemp quote in the
              Jan. 2010 "Letter of Light" that
              states:

              "Love is love. And this is what
              the ECK teachings are all about.
              Purely love, and just love. Simply
              love."

              Yep! All you need is love! Very
              simple and yet so profound!
              Say, wasn't that Jesus' message
              2000 years ago?!

              Prometheus

              zoey wrote:
              initiations

              Hey prometheus. Some time back there was
              a discussion here concerning eckankar
              initiations, inner and outer. If you can remember,
              can you tell me which initiations are considered
              entirely inner, and which are required to also
              have an outer initiation with an eck clergy?

              My friend and I are curious about this.

              Thanks, zoey
            • jonathanjohns96
              Prometheus, I m going to add a few facts from my personal experience in the 1980-1983 time frame to the discussion. In your post just before the one I am
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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                Prometheus,

                I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983 time frame to the discussion.

                In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin] Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before being kicked out by Klemp!"

                I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5 initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.

                Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.

                By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation, but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth. But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to progress people really fast."

                It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without receiving their 5th initiation.

                Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was automatically suspect if not completely wrong.

                Jonathan
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Jonathan, Klemp never did explain when Darwin fell from Grace. Was it prior to Oct. 22, 1981? If so when? It was Klemp s idea to meet in the Sound
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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                  Hello Jonathan,
                  Klemp never did explain "when" Darwin
                  fell from Grace. Was it prior to Oct. 22,
                  1981? If so when? It was Klemp's idea
                  to meet in the Sound Proof Dark Room
                  (Golden-Tongued Wisdom, no ECK!) at
                  the ESC to discuss the transition and being
                  made the LEM.

                  Klemp mentioned, after the fact, when
                  he booted Darwin that DG had promoted
                  500 to the 5th initiation before their time.
                  Actually, if Darwin really was a Black Magician,
                  as HK had claimed when DG promoted these
                  people, that would indicate that these chelas
                  had been initiated into the Black Arts versus
                  Eckankar! Nobody ever viewed this or spoke
                  of it from that perspective!

                  I knew a person who got the 4th and
                  then a few months later got the 5th from
                  DG. Years later Klemp made this person
                  a RESA. However, I had heard that people
                  had skipped initiations and this was years
                  prior to Darwin's fall. One person who posted
                  here on ESA recently, Colleen Russell, made
                  it to the 7th in 10 years or less. For some
                  reason Klemp sees those promotions as
                  necessary and okay but not Darwin's 1983
                  promotions. Look at the promotions that
                  Klemp got from Darwin! HK's selfish and
                  doesn't want anyone else near his rank.

                  I knew of one Eckist who got on the wrong
                  side of his Klemp-Kal like RESA and remained
                  a 4th for 25 years! Currently there are around
                  5,000 7th initiates who have been locked into
                  that initiation for 20-25 years! Why? Because
                  Klemp is mean-spirited and doesn't want to
                  share the "wealth."

                  Over the years Klemp has made it more
                  difficult for H.I.s to advance in initiation
                  rank due to the hoops he has them jumping
                  through. It's like a circus and he's the ring-
                  master! The training requirements, as well as,
                  Vahana/Service requirements and holding
                  local positions to be noticed makes it difficult
                  to advance when one has to play KAL-like
                  games and "act as if" in order to get that
                  outer pink slip. One cannot receive promotions
                  (initiations) by being an ECK Monk. Klemp
                  needs his servants/promoters/salespeople.
                  There is no room for the purely spiritual seeker!

                  Prometheus



                  jonathanjohns wrote:
                  >
                  > Prometheus,
                  >
                  > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my
                  personal experience in the 1980-1983
                  time frame to the discussion.
                  >
                  > In your post just before the one I am
                  responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                  Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!"
                  And then you followed it up with "Ooops!
                  I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th,
                  and around 1983 just before being kicked
                  out by Klemp!"
                  >
                  > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so
                  I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                  Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was
                  around 1980/1981 that a member of
                  Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was
                  promoted directly from 3rd initiate to
                  5th initiate. In other words, he skipped
                  his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                  later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't
                  be certain, but this "3 to 5 initiation" was
                  definitely done by Darwin.
                  >
                  > Also, I heard about one other person
                  who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                  interesting thing is that I believe that
                  both of these people had been in Eckankar
                  for less than 10 years. Eckankar started
                  in 1965, so 15-18 years was the absolute
                  maximum time the person who spoke to
                  me was in Eckankar. Plus, he never spoke
                  about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain
                  he joined Eckankar after Twitchell's death,
                  making his maximum time in Eckankar about
                  10-13 years since Darwin started in 1971.
                  I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better
                  estimate of the time he was a member of
                  Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years
                  old.
                  >
                  > By the way, regarding the person, B.S.,
                  who personally told me about skipping his
                  4th initiation. I asked him how that happened.
                  He gave me an explanation, but I don't remember
                  what it was. I believe it had something to do
                  with the fact that he progressed spiritually so
                  fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                  But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said
                  something like "the ECK need to progress
                  people really fast."
                  >
                  > It has been mentioned in other posts
                  on this message board that things are
                  a lot different now, with many members
                  of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                  receiving their 5th initiation.
                  >
                  > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI
                  that Darwin gave a lot of initiations out to
                  people who didn't really deserve them. Of
                  course, during the time when Darwin was
                  the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was
                  100% accepted by Eckankar's membership,
                  but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin
                  did or didn't do was automatically suspect
                  if not completely wrong.
                  >
                  > Jonathan

                  Prometheus wrote:

                  Basically, 1-9 are inner and outer,
                  10-11 are inner, 12 is inner and outer,
                  and 13-14 are inner.

                  [1-9]
                  In The Masters 4 Discourse, Lesson 2
                  is the following:

                  "Third, the final part of the Ninth
                  Initiation occurs in the physical
                  world."

                  [12th]
                  In Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon is this
                  on page 226:

                  "Voice of Akivasha. The oracle, until
                  the first of this century, at a craggy,
                  unexplored site called the Oracle of
                  Tirmer in the Valley of Shangta in
                  northern Tibet. It is here that the
                  Rod of ECK Power is passed from
                  the departing LEM to his successor
                  on October 22 [Twitchell's Birthday],
                  at midnight; sometimes called the
                  Voice, or Oracle, of Tirmer."

                  It should be noted that this is a
                  physical, earthly, and "outer" location,
                  although, it might be claimed that
                  one travels there in the Astral Body
                  which resembles one's physical body.
                  This is why there are paintings and
                  drawings of these people. Any body
                  higher than the Astral would not
                  otherwise have the same identifiable
                  (physical) characteristics.

                  It should be noted that in Klemp's
                  1987 book, "Soul Travelers of the
                  Far Country" on pages 186-187 that
                  Klemp states:

                  "The Ninth Initiation came on July 22,
                  1981. Initiations in ECK beyond the
                  Eighth are given ONLY on the inner
                  planes."

                  Of course, Darwin had to confirm
                  HK's 9th on the outer. It seems that
                  the 10th and 11th are minor initiations
                  since Klemp achieved these between
                  July 22, 1981 and October 22, 1981!


                  Of course Klemp had to backtrack
                  for the Masters 4 Discourse because
                  how can one anoint card carrying
                  9ths without an "outer" confirmation
                  "final" stage?

                  Else wise, everyone would be
                  running around claiming to be
                  a 9ths. It's bad enough that 7ths
                  are claiming to be 8ths (on the inner),
                  or that 8ths are claiming to be 9ths
                  on the inner or that some Eckists
                  skip initiations and, thus, there
                  are 5ths claiming to be 8ths
                  (on the inner).
                • jonathanjohns96
                  Prometheus, Thanks for your reply. You said I had heard that people had skipped initiations and this was years prior to Darwin s fall. I thought it was about
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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                    Prometheus,

                    Thanks for your reply. You said "I had heard that people had skipped initiations and this was years prior to Darwin's fall." I thought it was about 1980-1981 when this person told me this, but he might have received his 5th years before. So thank you for your verification that you heard about it years before Darwin's fall. He was a very honest person, I don't doubt that he skipped his 4th, just as he told me that he did. After all, if he was going to lie, he probably would have said that it didn't happen in order to cover up the fact. I wanted to mention it just as a way of attempting to preserve the "true history" of Eckankar. I'm not sure why I care about doing that (for them) but I do. I guess I don't want to see them put out their fabricated history of Eckankar where they say "rumors that people in the past skipped imitations are untrue." I could just see that happening. But I still don't know why I care. I guess I believe the world deserves an honest history of Eckankar. And I certainly don't trust them to do it.

                    You also said "One person who posted here on ESA recently, Colleen Russell, made it to the 7th in 10 years or less." That is truly amazing, isn't it? It makes my recollection (and interpretation) of the Eckist I spoke to, B.S., making it to the 5th in 7 to 8 years by 1981 all the more believable. But he was definitely doing all the "right stuff," I feel because he really believed in it. A few years later he went to work for the International office.

                    You also said "I knew of one Eckist who got on the wrong side of his Klemp-Kal like RESA and remained a 4th for 25 years!" My experience was that I got my 5th on the "29 year mark." But I did take a five year sabbatical. And I wasn't doing any of the right things. I didn't give talks. I put up some posters with some other people one time. I never volunteered at the Eck center. I did volunteer at an Eckankar booth at a health fair one time. I did attend the Worship Services, at times fairly regularly, but I guess that didn't count for very much.

                    Also, I thought the initiation were based on my spiritual progress. I thought Klemp was hard at work on the inner, keeping track of me, much like Santa Clause does. So I had no clue that your next initiation was based on doing volunteer work to promote Eckankar.

                    So it truly is amazing to see the differences between now and back in the days when Darwin was the LEM. I think you have already mentioned this many times, but I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that Klemp has become more and more paranoid through the years. And so he demands more and more and more through the years before he even trusts any members. I must admit that when you were discussing the difference between Darwin and today's Klemp, I didn't realize how severe the difference was.

                    I'd like to change the subject a little bit. In my last year in Eckankar, we had a "guest" at a worship service, which is something that almost never happened. He was very quiet, middle-aged in his 50s I suppose. I thought he wasn't a member of Eckankar. A week or two later I learned that he was a member, had been for about 20 to 30 years (I can't remember the exact number), but he just never attended official Eckankar activities. I was really surprised. The higher HI who gave me the information about him said that there are a lot of members in the local area like this. By the way, he did live about an hour drive from the center.

                    So, Prometheus, I would like to ask you two questions since you were active in the functioning of your Eck center. Were you aware of people like this who had zero involvement in the outer functions of Eckankar? And do you think that these people were commonly passed over for initiations?

                    Jonathan
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hi Jonathan, Okay, I ll give your questions a shot from my perspectives as a former H.I. and EK Leader. Yes, we had people like this turn up every now and then
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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                      Hi Jonathan,
                      Okay, I'll give your questions a shot from my
                      perspectives as a former H.I. and EK Leader.
                      Yes, we had people like this turn up every now
                      and then over the decades. Some had years on
                      me and yet I'd never seen them before. Others
                      were from other parts of the state or had left
                      Eckankar and then returned. Some had been
                      on a rest period, or were on a rest period and
                      didn't know anything "current." Anyone not
                      wanting to stick out like a sore thumb just needs
                      to quote the Shariyat, or talk about the Mahanta's
                      love, or about Surrender and they should fit-in
                      as though they had never been gone.

                      I'll respond to the questions below--


                      Jonathan wrote:
                      I'd like to change the subject a little bit. In my last year in Eckankar, we had
                      a "guest" at a worship service, which is something that almost never happened.
                      He was very quiet, middle-aged in his 50s I suppose. I thought he wasn't a
                      member of Eckankar. A week or two later I learned that he was a member, had been
                      for about 20 to 30 years (I can't remember the exact number), but he just never
                      attended official Eckankar activities. I was really surprised. The higher HI who
                      gave me the information about him said that there are a lot of members in the
                      local area like this. By the way, he did live about an hour drive from the
                      center.

                      So, Prometheus, I would like to ask you two
                      questions since you were active in the functioning
                      of your Eck center.

                      1.) Were you aware of people like this who had
                      zero involvement in the outer functions of Eckankar?


                      P- Yes, at times there I had never met some
                      of those on the ESC's membership list. Others
                      I knew of. Some only came to the ECK Worship
                      Service (EWS) or to Satsang. Sometimes I would
                      try to get them to volunteer by finding out what
                      they might like to do and then I would have that
                      specific coordinator speak to them. It was very
                      important to welcome and befriend them and
                      make them feel at home and want to join in and
                      socialize and to give them a volunteer position
                      so that they would feel needed. I then tried to
                      get them into Satsang Classes. Of course
                      that was another problem because I had to have
                      a Satsang Arahata to teach the class. Some EKists
                      took the Arahata Training, but still hadn't taught
                      a class after two years which, according to the Guidelines,
                      meant that they needed to be retrained. Retraining
                      was a problem because there needed to be trainers
                      available to do the retraining. Everything in Eckankar
                      takes forever to accomplish. And, in the end after
                      everything is said and done, only a handful of people
                      ever join and even fewer renew after the first year.
                      Word of mouth or Klemp getting on the radio or
                      TV would be best, but Klemp is lazy and a faker
                      that can't handle the heat. His main focus is to
                      keep ECKists busy and involved and to sell them
                      more EK materials ($)... to distribute to the trash
                      cans.

                      2.) And do you think that these people were commonly
                      passed over for initiations?

                      P- Well, that depends on who you know as well.
                      I had a 4th who finally became a volunteer after
                      many years of membership. I gave him an important
                      coordinator position. However, he quit the position
                      after six months! One promises that they will stay
                      in the EK position for one year (ending on Oct.22).
                      Apparently he had some pull with some friends of
                      the RESA and I was never called about his initiation.
                      He soon got his 5th! I would never have approved
                      him. His knowledge of the EK teachings were poor
                      and he was a poor example for an EK leader. He
                      did make an attempt to turn over a "new leaf" but
                      it was too little too late. To this day he's still a
                      poor excuse for a H.I., but that's good!

                      Other people who don't volunteer or attend
                      the appropriate training classes for advancement
                      will be passed over. Plus, one has to have an
                      "active" membership. If you're on a rest period
                      then your time-in-grade for advancement is
                      frozen. Also, one has to watch out what they
                      say, where and when, and to whom they say it.
                      Sometimes honestly is not the best policy! If
                      you get put on the RESA's Black List and are
                      passed over you can be in the toilet for "at least"
                      three years or until you prove yourself to the
                      Next RESA.

                      I've seen it happen where the RESA stepped
                      down and people who never had a chance of
                      getting promoted finally got promoted! I've
                      also seen people move to other states and get
                      promoted immediately under a different (nicer)
                      RESA. It happens all the time. Attend enough
                      seminars and talk to enough EK Leaders and
                      you can hear all sorts of "stories" that Klemp
                      doesn't want to hear or know about. So much
                      for the "All Knowing Mahanta!"

                      Yes, I remember back in the mid 80's that
                      there were Circles of Initiation Workshops
                      and that some H.I.s had to pass at being
                      facilitators on certain ones (third & fourth)
                      because they either skipped that initiation
                      or had been in it for only a few months before
                      getting promoted. How can one talk about
                      the trials and tribulations of the 4th when
                      you skipped it or had been in it for a few
                      months?

                      Prometheus





                      jonathan wrote:
                      Prometheus,

                      Thanks for your reply. You said "I had heard that people had skipped initiations
                      and this was years prior to Darwin's fall." I thought it was about 1980-1981
                      when this person told me this, but he might have received his 5th years before.
                      So thank you for your verification that you heard about it years before Darwin's
                      fall. He was a very honest person, I don't doubt that he skipped his 4th, just
                      as he told me that he did. After all, if he was going to lie, he probably would
                      have said that it didn't happen in order to cover up the fact. I wanted to
                      mention it just as a way of attempting to preserve the "true history" of
                      Eckankar. I'm not sure why I care about doing that (for them) but I do. I guess
                      I don't want to see them put out their fabricated history of Eckankar where they
                      say "rumors that people in the past skipped imitations are untrue." I could just
                      see that happening. But I still don't know why I care. I guess I believe the
                      world deserves an honest history of Eckankar. And I certainly don't trust them
                      to do it.

                      You also said "One person who posted here on ESA recently, Colleen Russell, made
                      it to the 7th in 10 years or less." That is truly amazing, isn't it? It makes my
                      recollection (and interpretation) of the Eckist I spoke to, B.S., making it to
                      the 5th in 7 to 8 years by 1981 all the more believable. But he was definitely
                      doing all the "right stuff," I feel because he really believed in it. A few
                      years later he went to work for the International office.

                      You also said "I knew of one Eckist who got on the wrong side of his Klemp-Kal
                      like RESA and remained a 4th for 25 years!" My experience was that I got my 5th
                      on the "29 year mark." But I did take a five year sabbatical. And I wasn't doing
                      any of the right things. I didn't give talks. I put up some posters with some
                      other people one time. I never volunteered at the Eck center. I did volunteer at
                      an Eckankar booth at a health fair one time. I did attend the Worship Services,
                      at times fairly regularly, but I guess that didn't count for very much.

                      Also, I thought the initiation were based on my spiritual progress. I thought
                      Klemp was hard at work on the inner, keeping track of me, much like Santa Clause
                      does. So I had no clue that your next initiation was based on doing volunteer
                      work to promote Eckankar.

                      So it truly is amazing to see the differences between now and back in the days
                      when Darwin was the LEM. I think you have already mentioned this many times, but
                      I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that Klemp has become more and
                      more paranoid through the years. And so he demands more and more and more
                      through the years before he even trusts any members. I must admit that when you
                      were discussing the difference between Darwin and today's Klemp, I didn't
                      realize how severe the difference was.

                      I'd like to change the subject a little bit. In my last year in Eckankar, we had
                      a "guest" at a worship service, which is something that almost never happened.
                      He was very quiet, middle-aged in his 50s I suppose. I thought he wasn't a
                      member of Eckankar. A week or two later I learned that he was a member, had been
                      for about 20 to 30 years (I can't remember the exact number), but he just never
                      attended official Eckankar activities. I was really surprised. The higher HI who
                      gave me the information about him said that there are a lot of members in the
                      local area like this. By the way, he did live about an hour drive from the
                      center.

                      So, Prometheus, I would like to ask you two questions since you were active in
                      the functioning of your Eck center. Were you aware of people like this who had
                      zero involvement in the outer functions of Eckankar? And do you think that these
                      people were commonly passed over for initiations?

                      Jonathan
                    • ctecvie
                      Hi Jonathan and all, my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally. She once told him that either she or some people she knew (I m not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and
                      Message 10 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Jonathan and all,

                        my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally. She once told him that either she or some people she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th initiations in one day - one or two in the morning and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                        At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates as eckankar was still young. Now there are so many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling - I guess that's why initiations are slowed down so much!

                        It's all about administration and money, and power of course ... :-))
                        Ingrid

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Prometheus,
                        >
                        > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983 time frame to the discussion.
                        >
                        > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin] Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before being kicked out by Klemp!"
                        >
                        > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5 initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                        >
                        > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                        >
                        > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation, but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth. But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to progress people really fast."
                        >
                        > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without receiving their 5th initiation.
                        >
                        > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                        >
                        > Jonathan
                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Ingrid and All, Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too. I didn t know that about ECKists getting several initiations in one day. Was that during Paul s
                        Message 11 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Ingrid and All,
                          Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                          I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                          several initiations in one day. Was that
                          during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                          I know that Klemp would never do that...
                          he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                          can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                          residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                          Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                          is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                          exception, but it does set a precedent.

                          IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                          Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                          of 8ths to 7ths?

                          And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                          lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                          be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                          at least 500 8th Initiates.

                          Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                          Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                          doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                          hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                          but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                          mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                          to the ECK Membership let alone say
                          something nice about the former ECK
                          Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                          failed. And when he fails a test like that
                          it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                          His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                          throne.

                          Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                          promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                          Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                          have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                          And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                          threaten his reign HK could have made them
                          all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                          LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/tradition
                          or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                          selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                          stuck in the past.

                          Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                          compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                          his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                          and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                          typical of all religions and their leaders.

                          Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                          Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                          on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                          promise of more initiations leading to God-
                          Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                          Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                          materials and seminars, taking more training,
                          following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                          lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                          is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                          you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                          but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                          like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                          In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                          "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                          one is able to finally see the correlations and
                          the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                          one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                          all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                          until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                          with Divine Spirit.

                          Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                          a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                          or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                          Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                          cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                          heresy! People are executed, even today,
                          by religionists who claim to love God.
                          But, why does God need to be protected?

                          Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                          and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                          weak-minded followers, and are immature
                          Souls.

                          Prometheus


                          ctecvie wrote:
                          Hi Jonathan and all,

                          my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                          She once told him that either she or some people
                          she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                          initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                          and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                          At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                          as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                          many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                          I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                          so much!

                          It's all about administration and money, and power
                          of course ... :-))

                          Ingrid

                          jonathanjohns wrote:
                          >
                          > Prometheus,
                          >
                          > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                          time frame to the discussion.
                          >
                          > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                          Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                          "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                          being kicked out by Klemp!"
                          >
                          > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                          Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                          Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                          initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                          later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                          initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                          >
                          > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                          interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                          Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                          the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                          never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                          Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                          Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                          of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                          >
                          > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                          his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                          but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                          that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                          But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                          progress people really fast."
                          >
                          > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                          lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                          receiving their 5th initiation.
                          >
                          > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                          out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                          Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                          membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                          automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                          >
                          > Jonathan
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello All, I just remembered something that I heard back in the 80s from a member of Klemp s EK Spiritual Council. This 8th said that Harold needed to make
                          Message 12 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello All,
                            I just remembered something that
                            I heard back in the 80s from a
                            member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
                            This 8th said that Harold needed to
                            make more H.I.s in Europe and that
                            he was making exceptions out of
                            necessity. And, HK had promoted
                            one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
                            to the 9th. I never knew why this
                            9th initiation thing was/is such a
                            big secret. It's probably because
                            HK doesn't want to build up any
                            more expectations for those higher
                            initiations anymore than he has
                            already. That's why the "imagination"
                            pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

                            The only Catch to getting and keeping
                            the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
                            he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
                            prevent Klemp from sharing this info
                            with the membership. Twit more than
                            likely started the "no tell" rule because
                            he didn't want others to find out who
                            he had promoted, behind the backs
                            of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
                            Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

                            However, this "no tell" rule has been
                            expanded. No ECKists are supposed
                            to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
                            Initiation openly.This is one reason
                            Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
                            He got the speculation about the 9th
                            out of the way and at the same time
                            prevented any discussion of the matter
                            outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
                            No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
                            outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
                            Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
                            second guessing, or questions and
                            speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
                            If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
                            any future initiations will be put on
                            hold. This is a fact that most long-time
                            H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
                            fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
                            flock and to keep them on task and sell
                            Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
                            or divine insight he wouldn't need his
                            spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
                            mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
                            and EK publications.


                            prometheus wrote:

                            Hello Ingrid and All,
                            Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                            I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                            several initiations in one day. Was that
                            during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                            I know that Klemp would never do that...
                            he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                            can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                            residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                            Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                            is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                            exception, but it does set a precedent.

                            IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                            Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                            of 8ths to 7ths?

                            And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                            lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                            be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                            at least 500 8th Initiates.

                            Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                            Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                            doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                            hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                            but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                            mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                            to the ECK Membership let alone say
                            something nice about the former ECK
                            Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                            failed. And when he fails a test like that
                            it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                            His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                            throne.

                            Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                            promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                            Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                            have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                            And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                            threaten his reign HK could have made them
                            all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                            LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/tradition
                            or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                            selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                            stuck in the past.

                            Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                            compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                            his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                            and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                            typical of all religions and their leaders.

                            Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                            Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                            on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                            promise of more initiations leading to God-
                            Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                            Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                            materials and seminars, taking more training,
                            following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                            lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                            is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                            you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                            but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                            like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                            In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                            "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                            one is able to finally see the correlations and
                            the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                            one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                            all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                            until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                            with Divine Spirit.

                            Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                            a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                            or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                            Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                            cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                            heresy! People are executed, even today,
                            by religionists who claim to love God.
                            But, why does God need to be protected?

                            Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                            and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                            weak-minded followers, and are immature
                            Souls.

                            Prometheus


                            ctecvie wrote:
                            Hi Jonathan and all,

                            my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                            She once told him that either she or some people
                            she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                            initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                            and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                            At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                            as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                            many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                            I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                            so much!

                            It's all about administration and money, and power
                            of course ... :-))

                            Ingrid

                            jonathanjohns wrote:
                            >
                            > Prometheus,
                            >
                            > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                            time frame to the discussion.
                            >
                            > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                            Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                            "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                            being kicked out by Klemp!"
                            >
                            > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                            Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                            Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                            initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                            later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                            initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                            >
                            > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                            interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                            Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                            the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                            never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                            Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                            Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                            of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                            >
                            > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                            his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                            but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                            that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                            But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                            progress people really fast."
                            >
                            > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                            lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                            receiving their 5th initiation.
                            >
                            > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                            out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                            Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                            membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                            automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                            >
                            > Jonathan
                          • Ed Kusi
                            Hi All, This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in Africa too. | personally know five HIs in one country who were jumped from 2nd and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It
                            Message 13 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi All,
                              This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in Africa too. | personally know five HIs in one country who were jumped from 2nd and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It happened in Darwin's time and the reasons given were as already mentioned in related posts.

                              Pretujari

                              --- On Mon, 2/1/10, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: 3rd initiation to 5th initiation (not me) in 1980-1983 time frame
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 2:03 PM

                               

                              Hello All,
                              I just remembered something that
                              I heard back in the 80s from a
                              member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
                              This 8th said that Harold needed to
                              make more H.I.s in Europe and that
                              he was making exceptions out of
                              necessity. And, HK had promoted
                              one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
                              to the 9th. I never knew why this
                              9th initiation thing was/is such a
                              big secret. It's probably because
                              HK doesn't want to build up any
                              more expectations for those higher
                              initiations anymore than he has
                              already. That's why the "imagination"
                              pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

                              The only Catch to getting and keeping
                              the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
                              he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
                              prevent Klemp from sharing this info
                              with the membership. Twit more than
                              likely started the "no tell" rule because
                              he didn't want others to find out who
                              he had promoted, behind the backs
                              of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
                              Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

                              However, this "no tell" rule has been
                              expanded. No ECKists are supposed
                              to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
                              Initiation openly.This is one reason
                              Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
                              He got the speculation about the 9th
                              out of the way and at the same time
                              prevented any discussion of the matter
                              outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
                              No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
                              outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
                              Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
                              second guessing, or questions and
                              speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
                              If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
                              any future initiations will be put on
                              hold. This is a fact that most long-time
                              H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
                              fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
                              flock and to keep them on task and sell
                              Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
                              or divine insight he wouldn't need his
                              spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
                              mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
                              and EK publications.

                              prometheus wrote:

                              Hello Ingrid and All,
                              Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                              I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                              several initiations in one day. Was that
                              during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                              I know that Klemp would never do that...
                              he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                              can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                              residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                              Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                              is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                              exception, but it does set a precedent.

                              IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                              Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                              of 8ths to 7ths?

                              And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                              lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                              be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                              at least 500 8th Initiates.

                              Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                              Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                              doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                              hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                              but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                              mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                              to the ECK Membership let alone say
                              something nice about the former ECK
                              Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                              failed. And when he fails a test like that
                              it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                              His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                              throne.

                              Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                              promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                              Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                              have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                              And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                              threaten his reign HK could have made them
                              all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                              LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/ tradition
                              or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                              selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                              stuck in the past.

                              Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                              compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                              his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                              and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                              typical of all religions and their leaders.

                              Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                              Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                              on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                              promise of more initiations leading to God-
                              Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                              Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                              materials and seminars, taking more training,
                              following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                              lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                              is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                              you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                              but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                              like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                              In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                              "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                              one is able to finally see the correlations and
                              the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                              one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                              all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                              until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                              with Divine Spirit.

                              Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                              a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                              or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                              Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                              cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                              heresy! People are executed, even today,
                              by religionists who claim to love God.
                              But, why does God need to be protected?

                              Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                              and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                              weak-minded followers, and are immature
                              Souls.

                              Prometheus

                              ctecvie wrote:
                              Hi Jonathan and all,

                              my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                              She once told him that either she or some people
                              she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                              initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                              and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                              At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                              as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                              many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                              I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                              so much!

                              It's all about administration and money, and power
                              of course ... :-))

                              Ingrid

                              jonathanjohns wrote:
                              >
                              > Prometheus,
                              >
                              > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                              time frame to the discussion.
                              >
                              > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                              Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                              "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                              being kicked out by Klemp!"
                              >
                              > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                              Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                              Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                              initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                              later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                              initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                              >
                              > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                              interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                              Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                              the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                              never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                              Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                              Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                              of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                              >
                              > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                              his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                              but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                              that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                              But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                              progress people really fast."
                              >
                              > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                              lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                              receiving their 5th initiation.
                              >
                              > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                              out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                              Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                              membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                              automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                              >
                              > Jonathan


                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Ed and All, Now that my memory of this has been refreshed I do recall Klemp mentioning people in Africa being promoted rapidly due to the need for EK
                              Message 14 of 17 , Feb 2, 2010
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                                Hello Ed and All,
                                Now that my memory of this has been
                                refreshed I do recall Klemp mentioning
                                people in Africa being promoted rapidly
                                due to the need for EK Leaders. I had
                                no idea as to how it was being done
                                and that initiations were being skipped!
                                HK would (and still) always say how
                                advanced and natural the Africans' beliefs
                                were. But, from what I've heard, there's
                                a lot of superstition, folk lore, and other
                                beliefs mixed in with the EK teachings.

                                Ed, can you share or elaborate on this?

                                Apparently HK's policy of this skipping
                                of initiations was a sin of omission on
                                Klemp's part. He knew that other EKists
                                wouldn't feel comfortable with this tactic.
                                HK never shared these details with the
                                membership. I guess that the general
                                membership didn't need to know how
                                he was conducting business since he
                                doesn't have to report to anyone for his
                                actions... like the Pope.

                                It just goes to show that the EK Initiations
                                can be manipulated for physical worldly
                                gains... more sales leaders.

                                It is hypocritical of Klemp to bring up
                                the fact that Paul promoted people
                                very rapidly to Higher Initiations due
                                to need when Eckankar was in the
                                early stages. Darwin did the same thing
                                early on and was never criticized for it.
                                When DG's and HK's conflict, in 1983,
                                was coming to a head Darwin promoted
                                500 EKists to the 5th initiation. The
                                problem was really with Klemp's ego.
                                Instead, Klemp made Darwin look like
                                the bad guy on this, too, because of
                                the other things that had taken place.

                                However, as I said before, IF Darwin
                                really was a Black Magician, as the nasty
                                Klempster claimed, that would mean
                                that those 500 EKists DG gave the 5th
                                to had actually been initiated, unknowingly,
                                into the Black Arts. Klemp claimed, at
                                the time, that viewing Darwin's picture
                                or reading his words could have psychic
                                influence over ECKists. Where was Klemp's
                                protection? This is why ECKists don't
                                usually read outside (unapproved) books
                                and info. Klemp has scared them from
                                doing so. But, where's the "protection"
                                from such things? Catch-22 again!

                                Anyway, let's not forget Klemp promoting
                                people in Europe rapidly as well. Plus,
                                after the schism in 1983-1984 Klemp
                                had gaps in EK leadership, due to H.I.s
                                leaving to follow Darwin, and thus
                                promoted his own group of H.I.s as fill-ins.
                                Once again, the promotions (initiations)
                                had nothing to do with Spiritual Growth.

                                Yes, it's interesting to discuss these
                                remembrances and piece together
                                information about the EK Initiations.
                                Klemp's cover-up and omissions on
                                his own policy of skipping initiations
                                is more proof that the initiations aren't
                                what ECKists imagine them to be.
                                The initiations are devalued when
                                the truth about how and why they
                                are manipulated becomes known.

                                Of course, the true blue EKist will
                                deny the truth. They need Eckankar
                                (religion) and will rationalize. They
                                turn a blind-eye to facts and to
                                critical thinking. They want to and
                                need to believe in Eckankar because
                                they don't have a replacement belief.
                                Also, Eckankar is convenient and like
                                all religions it "answers" our questions
                                with dogma that seems to make sense
                                at times. And, the promises (imaginings)
                                and dreams seem better than what other
                                religions seem to teach and offer. But,
                                that never ending "Service/Sales" crap
                                is the real turnoff! Well actually, Klemp
                                promoting his younger looking image
                                in "Tips for ECK Study" and on "The
                                Wisdom Notes" page is a real turn-off!
                                Such vanity!

                                Prometheus

                                Ed Kusi wrote:

                                Hi All,
                                This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in
                                Africa too. | personally know five HIs in
                                one country who were jumped from 2nd
                                and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It happened
                                in Darwin's time and the reasons given
                                were as already mentioned in related posts.

                                Pretujari

                                prometheus wrote:

                                Hello All,
                                I just remembered something that
                                I heard back in the 80s from a
                                member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
                                This 8th said that Harold needed to
                                make more H.I.s in Europe and that
                                he was making exceptions out of
                                necessity. And, HK had promoted
                                one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
                                to the 9th. I never knew why this
                                9th initiation thing was/is such a
                                big secret. It's probably because
                                HK doesn't want to build up any
                                more expectations for those higher
                                initiations anymore than he has
                                already. That's why the "imagination"
                                pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

                                The only Catch to getting and keeping
                                the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
                                he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
                                prevent Klemp from sharing this info
                                with the membership. Twit more than
                                likely started the "no tell" rule because
                                he didn't want others to find out who
                                he had promoted, behind the backs
                                of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
                                Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

                                However, this "no tell" rule has been
                                expanded. No ECKists are supposed
                                to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
                                Initiation openly.This is one reason
                                Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
                                He got the speculation about the 9th
                                out of the way and at the same time
                                prevented any discussion of the matter
                                outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
                                No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
                                outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
                                Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
                                second guessing, or questions and
                                speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
                                If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
                                any future initiations will be put on
                                hold. This is a fact that most long-time
                                H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
                                fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
                                flock and to keep them on task and sell
                                Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
                                or divine insight he wouldn't need his
                                spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
                                mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
                                and EK publications.

                                prometheus wrote:

                                Hello Ingrid and All,
                                Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                                I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                                several initiations in one day. Was that
                                during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                                I know that Klemp would never do that...
                                he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                                can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                                residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                                Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                                is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                                exception, but it does set a precedent.

                                IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                                Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                                of 8ths to 7ths?

                                And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                                lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                                be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                                at least 500 8th Initiates.

                                Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                                Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                                doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                                hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                                but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                                mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                                to the ECK Membership let alone say
                                something nice about the former ECK
                                Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                                failed. And when he fails a test like that
                                it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                                His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                                throne.

                                Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                                promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                                Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                                have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                                And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                                threaten his reign HK could have made them
                                all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                                LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/ tradition
                                or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                                selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                                stuck in the past.

                                Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                                compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                                his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                                and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                                typical of all religions and their leaders.

                                Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                                Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                                on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                                promise of more initiations leading to God-
                                Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                                Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                                materials and seminars, taking more training,
                                following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                                lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                                is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                                you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                                but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                                like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                                In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                                "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                                one is able to finally see the correlations and
                                the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                                one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                                all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                                until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                                with Divine Spirit.

                                Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                                a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                                or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                                Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                                cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                                heresy! People are executed, even today,
                                by religionists who claim to love God.
                                But, why does God need to be protected?

                                Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                                and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                                weak-minded followers, and are immature
                                Souls.

                                Prometheus

                                ctecvie wrote:
                                Hi Jonathan and all,

                                my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                                She once told him that either she or some people
                                she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                                initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                                and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                                At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                                as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                                many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                                I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                                so much!

                                It's all about administration and money, and power
                                of course ... :-))

                                Ingrid

                                jonathanjohns wrote:
                                >
                                > Prometheus,
                                >
                                > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                                time frame to the discussion.
                                >
                                > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                                Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                                "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                                being kicked out by Klemp!"
                                >
                                > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                                Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                                Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                                initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                                later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                                initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                                >
                                > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                                interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                                Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                                the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                                never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                                Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                                Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                                of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                                >
                                > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                                his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                                but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                                that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                                But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                                progress people really fast."
                                >
                                > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                                lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                                receiving their 5th initiation.
                                >
                                > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                                out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                                Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                                membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                                automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                                >
                                > Jonathan
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