Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Loser Eck Master

Expand Messages
  • mishmisha9
    Hello, All! Very nice posts on the loser eck master here! I would will interject a few comments below. ... control since Ford Johnson s book, and the fallout
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 7, 2006
      Hello, All!

      Very nice posts on the "loser eck master" here!

      I would will interject a few comments below.

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"
      <pretujari@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Prometheus and All,
      > Klemp's mind is in overdrive in seeking subtle ways of damage
      control since Ford Johnson's book, and the fallout on his org. Now
      he is shifting blame of the non-performance of his deceptive and
      confusing methods onto the so-called 'headstrong losers' of his org.
      But isn't it the mahanta's job to loosen up a so-called headstrong
      follower so the latter 'adopts the practices of a winner...'? I
      remember in his Mahanta transcripts a description by an Eckist of
      how the people he knew had all become gracefull over the years due
      to the Mahanta's influence. Perhaps, there are some people his all-
      encompassing powers cannot reach?
      >

      Mish: There are some eckists who are trying to hold onto their
      independent minds, and I guess from what HK is saying here, he is
      calling them losers. He doesn't want to have them in his org. It
      would naturally be so much easier for him to not have to deal with
      their questions and more advanced individualized way of looking at
      things. When people join groups in which they agree to follow a
      guru, they give up their independence and must kneel to this so
      called greater than thou leader! Why would anyone really agree to
      this? I guess one is looking one way and seeing something of value
      while subtly giving up something more--freedom. It happens when we
      don't pay attention to details and trust in what others are saying.

      > A person cannot operate outside their frame of reference, or state
      of consciousness as we here are aware. When HK manipulated his way
      into the leadership of Eckankar, he got there as a has-been
      farmer/Luteran student minister, with some auditory and visual
      hallucinations which he termed 'spiritual experiences.' Courtesy
      Twitchell's fabrications and his own psychosis.
      >

      Mish: This is very true and Pretujari states it in a nutshell! : )


      > When he got to the top, he realised he lacked the capacity and
      ability to take the already confused teaching to a higher level so
      he took the easy way out by lowering it into the fraternity of
      religions. He 'cleverly' couched this deception into his so-called
      mission as sanctioned by the phantom Vairagi Order: 'That he was to
      bring the teachings to the valleys', meaning to the ordinary people.
      He was greatly relieved when this was generally accepted, but those
      who at that early point saw through his deception left accusing him
      of not teaching things right.
      >

      Mish: It was generally accepted because eckists didn't know where to
      go, and hoped that it would get better as HK settled into his duties
      as L.E.M. Many are still remaining because they claim that eckankar
      has done so much for them and that it is the teachings that are of
      value to them. Eckists are trained to make too many assumptions,
      replying upon what they think are inner truths that are programmed
      into their minds by the outer distortions of the dogma they give
      belief to! Still, I suppose some of them ignore HK silently (not
      buying into it all)--smiling back at him as he smilingly gazes upon
      them! LOL!


      > Klemp is a walking confusion and distortion of pseudo-
      spirituality, and he will continue to confuse himself and his
      members. But we who are here will see every shift of his mahanta
      mask and notice each time his true agenda darts out.
      >

      Mish: Yes, everytime HK opens his mouth or writes some more of his
      dribble, we will see him for who he really is! Will the real loser
      please stand up! : )

      > Cheers All,
      > Pretujari

      Here's something for eckists to think about! When HK is showing his
      claws as he has in calling some chelas losers, well, be warned.
      Because he just might be calling you losers tomorrow. If he is
      operating at all above a delusional state, then he knows that his
      intent is to scam, and in his scamming mind he would consider
      those who fall for it to be "losers!" So which is it, with HK, is he
      delusional or is he just another con like PT--or is he some of both?
      Regardless, he is still accountable for his actions and what he does
      and says to others!

      Mish
    • fredevah
      Hi Prometheus, pretujari and All, He who engages in presenting lies as truth is indeed endangering his own life. For he has to face the consequences for
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 13, 2006
        Hi Prometheus, pretujari and All,
        He who engages in presenting lies as truth is indeed endangering his
        own life. For he has to face the consequences for deceiving humankind
        whether he knows it or not, ignornce is not an excuse. If Harold
        truly knows the implication of what he is doing he would have thought
        otherwise to fine tune the Eckankar teachings to meet the aspirations
        of the day. I guess he doesn't know. If he doesn't then we are quite
        convinced that he is truly not a master. I am sure he is getting it
        hot with Law of Karma. People are interested in truth and not dogma
        these days and Harold fails to recognise that. When members in a
        group like ECKANKAR realize the shoddy deals of the group they will
        have to leave for something better so why call them loosers. If they
        are really loosers people will see it in them so let Harold watch.
        When a man suffers for his own actions is he a looser or a winner.
        Harold need to stop pretending, all is not well with him. He is only
        struggling to hold tight his flock. Harold is afraid that Eckankar
        will collapse in his time, he is highly worried about it. He has no
        option than to call those who have abandon his group loosers.
        He has to do that to encourage himself rather than cry out to the
        public. Deep within Harold, he is crying as notable figures that made
        Eckankar thick have left his group. Harold is indeed a LOOSER
        ECKMASTER. We need to show him compassion considering what he will be
        going through in the years to come. Take a look at the quote below.

        "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!for you shut up
        the kingdom of heaven against men:for you neither go in yourselves,
        neither allow you them that are entering to go in. – Mathew 23:13"

        Harold did not realize that by presenting lies as truth he is shuttng
        the the kingdom of heaven against men and himself. Like I said he has
        a price to pay for that. He cannot run away from it. He is not above
        the law.

        I love you all.

        Fred.

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
        <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello, All!
        >
        > Very nice posts on the "loser eck master" here!
        >
        > I would will interject a few comments below.
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"
        > <pretujari@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Prometheus and All,
        > > Klemp's mind is in overdrive in seeking subtle ways of damage
        > control since Ford Johnson's book, and the fallout on his org. Now
        > he is shifting blame of the non-performance of his deceptive and
        > confusing methods onto the so-called 'headstrong losers' of his
        org.
        > But isn't it the mahanta's job to loosen up a so-called headstrong
        > follower so the latter 'adopts the practices of a winner...'? I
        > remember in his Mahanta transcripts a description by an Eckist of
        > how the people he knew had all become gracefull over the years due
        > to the Mahanta's influence. Perhaps, there are some people his all-
        > encompassing powers cannot reach?
        > >
        >
        > Mish: There are some eckists who are trying to hold onto their
        > independent minds, and I guess from what HK is saying here, he is
        > calling them losers. He doesn't want to have them in his org. It
        > would naturally be so much easier for him to not have to deal with
        > their questions and more advanced individualized way of looking at
        > things. When people join groups in which they agree to follow a
        > guru, they give up their independence and must kneel to this so
        > called greater than thou leader! Why would anyone really agree to
        > this? I guess one is looking one way and seeing something of value
        > while subtly giving up something more--freedom. It happens when we
        > don't pay attention to details and trust in what others are
        saying.
        >
        > > A person cannot operate outside their frame of reference, or
        state
        > of consciousness as we here are aware. When HK manipulated his way
        > into the leadership of Eckankar, he got there as a has-been
        > farmer/Luteran student minister, with some auditory and visual
        > hallucinations which he termed 'spiritual experiences.' Courtesy
        > Twitchell's fabrications and his own psychosis.
        > >
        >
        > Mish: This is very true and Pretujari states it in a nutshell! : )
        >
        >
        > > When he got to the top, he realised he lacked the capacity and
        > ability to take the already confused teaching to a higher level so
        > he took the easy way out by lowering it into the fraternity of
        > religions. He 'cleverly' couched this deception into his so-called
        > mission as sanctioned by the phantom Vairagi Order: 'That he was to
        > bring the teachings to the valleys', meaning to the ordinary
        people.
        > He was greatly relieved when this was generally accepted, but those
        > who at that early point saw through his deception left accusing him
        > of not teaching things right.
        > >
        >
        > Mish: It was generally accepted because eckists didn't know where
        to
        > go, and hoped that it would get better as HK settled into his
        duties
        > as L.E.M. Many are still remaining because they claim that eckankar
        > has done so much for them and that it is the teachings that are of
        > value to them. Eckists are trained to make too many assumptions,
        > replying upon what they think are inner truths that are programmed
        > into their minds by the outer distortions of the dogma they give
        > belief to! Still, I suppose some of them ignore HK silently (not
        > buying into it all)--smiling back at him as he smilingly gazes upon
        > them! LOL!
        >
        >
        > > Klemp is a walking confusion and distortion of pseudo-
        > spirituality, and he will continue to confuse himself and his
        > members. But we who are here will see every shift of his mahanta
        > mask and notice each time his true agenda darts out.
        > >
        >
        > Mish: Yes, everytime HK opens his mouth or writes some more of his
        > dribble, we will see him for who he really is! Will the real loser
        > please stand up! : )
        >
        > > Cheers All,
        > > Pretujari
        >
        > Here's something for eckists to think about! When HK is showing his
        > claws as he has in calling some chelas losers, well, be warned.
        > Because he just might be calling you losers tomorrow. If he is
        > operating at all above a delusional state, then he knows that his
        > intent is to scam, and in his scamming mind he would consider
        > those who fall for it to be "losers!" So which is it, with HK, is
        he
        > delusional or is he just another con like PT--or is he some of
        both?
        > Regardless, he is still accountable for his actions and what he
        does
        > and says to others!
        >
        > Mish
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Fred, Thank you for the post. I must say that I probably have more compassion for Klemp than he does for me, other former Eckists, and for the loser
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 13, 2006
          Hello Fred,
          Thank you for the post. I must say that I probably have more
          compassion for Klemp than he does for me, other former Eckists, and
          for the "loser" Eckists! The bigger problem with Klemp is that many
          Eckists will emulate him and his comments to others. There are many
          Eckists that loved his "loser" statement and see it as opening the
          door for their own nastiness to others. Klemp is the model of
          behavior to his chelas. Now when Eckists are dealing with non-
          Eckist temporary postal clerks, who will ask to see an ID before
          looking for their package, or with Eckists who are frustrated with
          the initiation procedures and requirements these neo-Eckists will
          now know how to handle the dissidents! Every good Eckist must wear
          blinders, keep silent, march in step, and salute the LEM/Mahanta!

          Klemp is way off track when he talks of being a "winner" versus
          being a "loser." Being a "winner" is way over-rated in this society.
          What does being a "winner" really mean, how do "winners" behave,
          what do "winner" look like? This is a very ironic position for HK to
          take because prior to becoming a High Initiate in Eckankar Klemp was
          himself a loser! In school, on the farm, at the seminary, in the Air
          Force, with relationships, in the business world, etc., etc.
          Therefore, one would think that Klemp would be more sensitive with
          his speech. After all, Eckists are rather fragile and sensitive
          Souls so why would their Mahanta call some of them "LOSERS!" Isn't
          this something that someone would call a stranger, usually, when
          they have angered you. Calling someone a "loser" is a very
          disrespectful thing to say to a person, and is usually said behind
          one's back! What is Klemp teaching or telling the Eck Youth with his
          behavior? <sigh>

          I really don't believe that Klemp is worried about Eckankar
          collapsing in his lifetime. HK has enough money squirreled away to
          last two lifetimes! However, he does enjoy being worshipped both on
          the outer and on the Inner Planes! LOL! Klemp's vanity is probably
          more motivation for him to keep Eckankar going more than any other
          reason. Once on that throne it's hard to step down. I'm sure,
          however, that he'll still be hanging around and writing his trash
          even when a new LEM does take over someday. And, I doubt if Klemp
          will be giving up the Mahantaship for at least 5 years after that
          transition... if at all!

          Prometheus


          fredevah wrote:

          Hi Prometheus, pretujari and All,
          He who engages in presenting lies as truth is indeed endangering his
          own life. For he has to face the consequences for deceiving
          humankind whether he knows it or not, ignornce is not an excuse. If
          Harold truly knows the implication of what he is doing he would have
          thought otherwise to fine tune the Eckankar teachings to meet the
          aspirations of the day. I guess he doesn't know. If he doesn't then
          we are quite convinced that he is truly not a master. I am sure he
          is getting it hot with Law of Karma. People are interested in truth
          and not dogma these days and Harold fails to recognise that. When
          members in a group like ECKANKAR realize the shoddy deals of the
          group they will have to leave for something better so why call them
          loosers. If they are really loosers people will see it in them so
          let Harold watch. When a man suffers for his own actions is he a
          looser or a winner. Harold need to stop pretending, all is not well
          with him. He is only struggling to hold tight his flock. Harold is
          afraid that Eckankar will collapse in his time, he is highly worried
          about it. He has no option than to call those who have abandon his
          group loosers. He has to do that to encourage himself rather than
          cry out to the public. Deep within Harold, he is crying as notable
          figures that made Eckankar thick have left his group. Harold is
          indeed a LOOSER ECKMASTER. We need to show him compassion
          considering what he will be going through in the years to come. Take
          a look at the quote below.

          "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!for you shut up
          the kingdom of heaven against men:for you neither go in yourselves,
          neither allow you them that are entering to go in. – Mathew 23:13"

          Harold did not realize that by presenting lies as truth he is
          shuttng the the kingdom of heaven against men and himself. Like I
          said he has a price to pay for that. He cannot run away from it. He
          is not above the law.

          I love you all.

          Fred.

          mishmisha wrote:

          Hello, All!

          Very nice posts on the "loser eck master" here!

          I would will interject a few comments below.

          pretujari wrote:

          Hi Prometheus and All,
          Klemp's mind is in overdrive in seeking subtle ways of damage
          control since Ford Johnson's book, and the fallout on his org. Now
          he is shifting blame of the non-performance of his deceptive and
          confusing methods onto the so-called 'headstrong losers' of his
          org. But isn't it the mahanta's job to loosen up a so-called
          headstrong follower so the latter 'adopts the practices of a
          winner...'? I remember in his Mahanta transcripts a description by
          an Eckist of how the people he knew had all become gracefull over
          the years due to the Mahanta's influence. Perhaps, there are some
          people his all-encompassing powers cannot reach?


          Mish: There are some eckists who are trying to hold onto their
          independent minds, and I guess from what HK is saying here, he is
          calling them losers. He doesn't want to have them in his org. It
          would naturally be so much easier for him to not have to deal with
          their questions and more advanced individualized way of looking at
          things. When people join groups in which they agree to follow a
          guru, they give up their independence and must kneel to this so
          called greater than thou leader! Why would anyone really agree to
          this? I guess one is looking one way and seeing something of value
          while subtly giving up something more--freedom. It happens when we
          don't pay attention to details and trust in what others are
          saying.

          A person cannot operate outside their frame of reference, or state
          of consciousness as we here are aware. When HK manipulated his way
          into the leadership of Eckankar, he got there as a has-been
          farmer/Luteran student minister, with some auditory and visual
          hallucinations which he termed 'spiritual experiences.' Courtesy
          Twitchell's fabrications and his own psychosis.


          Mish: This is very true and Pretujari states it in a nutshell! : )


          When he got to the top, he realised he lacked the capacity and
          ability to take the already confused teaching to a higher level so
          he took the easy way out by lowering it into the fraternity of
          religions. He 'cleverly' couched this deception into his so-called
          mission as sanctioned by the phantom Vairagi Order: 'That he was to
          bring the teachings to the valleys', meaning to the ordinary people.
          He was greatly relieved when this was generally accepted, but those
          who at that early point saw through his deception left accusing him
          of not teaching things right.


          Mish: It was generally accepted because eckists didn't know where to
          go, and hoped that it would get better as HK settled into his duties
          as L.E.M. Many are still remaining because they claim that eckankar
          has done so much for them and that it is the teachings that are of
          value to them. Eckists are trained to make too many assumptions,
          replying upon what they think are inner truths that are programmed
          into their minds by the outer distortions of the dogma they give
          belief to! Still, I suppose some of them ignore HK silently (not
          buying into it all)--smiling back at him as he smilingly gazes upon
          them! LOL!


          Klemp is a walking confusion and distortion of pseudo-spirituality,
          and he will continue to confuse himself and his members. But we who
          are here will see every shift of his mahanta mask and notice each
          time his true agenda darts out.


          Mish: Yes, everytime HK opens his mouth or writes some more of his
          dribble, we will see him for who he really is! Will the real loser
          please stand up! : )

          Cheers All,
          Pretujari

          Here's something for eckists to think about! When HK is showing his
          claws as he has in calling some chelas losers, well, be warned.
          Because he just might be calling you losers tomorrow. If he is
          operating at all above a delusional state, then he knows that his
          intent is to scam, and in his scamming mind he would consider
          those who fall for it to be "losers!" So which is it, with HK, is
          he delusional or is he just another con like PT--or is he some of
          both? Regardless, he is still accountable for his actions and what
          he does and says to others!

          Mish
        • Ed Kusi
          Hello Pashtoonfallafa, Thanks for your mail. This is something I wrote a while ago on ESA. Though am not contributing by writing am reading most of what
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 29, 2009
            Hello Pashtoonfallafa,
            Thanks for your mail. This is something I wrote a while ago on ESA. Though am not contributing by writing am reading most of what happens here on ESA.  I will not even give you the benefit of a reply. But am really worried if you an Eckist for you to come out with   language like that. What will your beloved master/Lem say? And did your mommy teach you to speak like that? I'm glad to have gottten a reaction from you though. The truth hurts. And what is the saying? "Every attack is a cry for help"
            All the best, and continue to keep your head in the sand. However when you are ready for a real debate on Eckankar and your beloved master, don't hesitate to write back.
            Pretujari

            --- On Sun, 9/27/09, pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...> wrote:

            From: pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...>
            Subject: Re: Loser Eck Master
            To: "pretujari" <pretujari@...>
            Date: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 6:29 PM

            hello prejutari,

            what are you teaching?
            what are you able to do?
            Can you at least wipe your ass after you shit, or does your mommy still have to clean your ass?
            You're even dumber than dirt.
            Please don't ridicule someone unless you know myou are better than them. I know I am better than you. Hell it doesn't take much to be better than you, dickhead.



            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari" <pretujari@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Prometheus and All,
            > Klemp's mind is in overdrive in seeking subtle ways of damage control
            > since Ford Johnson's book, and the fallout on his org. Now he is
            > shifting blame of the non-performance of his deceptive and confusing
            > methods onto the so-called 'headstrong losers' of his org. But isn't
            > it the mahanta's job to loosen up a so-called headstrong follower so
            > the latter 'adopts the practices of a winner...'? I remember in his
            > Mahanta transcripts a description by an Eckist of how the people he
            > knew had all become gracefull over the years due to the Mahanta's
            > influence. Perhaps, there are some people his all-encompassing powers
            > cannot reach?
            >
            > A person cannot operate outside their frame of reference, or state of
            > consciousness as we here are aware. When HK manipulated his way into
            > the leadership of Eckankar, he got there as a has-been farmer/Luteran
            > student minister, with some auditory and visual hallucinations which
            > he termed 'spiritual experiences.' Courtesy Twitchell's fabrications
            > and his own psychosis.
            >
            > When he got to the top, he realised he lacked the capacity and
            > ability to take the already confused teaching to a higher level so he
            > took the easy way out by lowering it into the fraternity of
            > religions. He 'cleverly' couched this deception into his so-called
            > mission as sanctioned by the phantom Vairagi Order: 'That he was to
            > bring the teachings to the valleys', meaning to the ordinary people.
            > He was greatly relieved when this was generally accepted, but those
            > who at that early point saw through his deception left accusing him
            > of not teaching things right.
            >
            > Klemp is a walking confusion and distortion of pseudo-spirituality,
            > and he will continue to confuse himself and his members. But we who
            > are here will see every shift of his mahanta mask and notice each
            > time his true agenda darts out.
            >
            > Cheers All,
            > Pretujari
            >



          • prometheus_973
            Hello Pretujari, This EKist, pashtoonfallafa, sent me a similar email, although, it was much more obscene. It s rather obvious that he can t express himself
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 29, 2009
              Hello Pretujari,
              This EKist, pashtoonfallafa, sent
              me a similar email, although, it
              was much more obscene. It's rather
              obvious that he can't express himself
              very well and that his anger has gotten
              the best of him... if there is a best!

              It's too bad that his anger is being
              misdirected and that our insights
              have confused and angered him. Klemp
              is a trickster and this poor (but simple-
              minded) Soul seems to need a religious
              crutch as most people do. Eckankar
              is just one of many New Age religions
              that caters to this mindset. The Truth
              that we are sharing, here on ESA, is
              being acknowledged by Souls upon
              a subconsciousness level. Thus, Eckists
              are feeling frustrated with their longterm
              religious choices because their trust
              in Klemp, the LEM/Mahanta, is starting
              to wane. The Truth is out there, but
              Eckists are like horses with blinders on.
              Plus, you can lead them to water (truth)
              but you can't make them drink (think).

              Prometheus


              pretujari wrote:

              Hello Pashtoonfallafa,
              Thanks for your mail. This is
              something I wrote a while ago
              on ESA. Though am not contributing
              by writing am reading most of what
              happens here on ESA. I will not even
              give you the benefit of a reply.

              But am really worried if you an Eckist
              for you to come out with language l
              ike that. What will your beloved master/
              Lem say? And did your mommy teach
              you to speak like that? I'm glad to have
              gotten a reaction from you though.
              The truth hurts. And what is the saying?
              "Every attack is a cry for help"

              All the best, and continue to keep your
              head in the sand. However when you
              are ready for a real debate on Eckankar
              and your beloved master, don't hesitate
              to write back.
              Pretujari

              pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...> wrote:


              hello prejutari,

              what are you teaching?
              what are you able to do?
              Can you at least wipe your
              ass after you shit, or does
              your mommy still have to
              clean your ass? You're even
              dumber than dirt. Please don't
              ridicule someone unless you
              know myou are better than
              them. I know I am better than
              you. Hell it doesn't take much
              to be better than you, dickhead.



              pretujari wrote:
              >
              > Hi Prometheus and All,
              > Klemp's mind is in overdrive in seeking subtle ways of damage control
              > since Ford Johnson's book, and the fallout on his org. Now he is
              > shifting blame of the non-performance of his deceptive and confusing
              > methods onto the so-called 'headstrong losers' of his org. But isn't
              > it the mahanta's job to loosen up a so-called headstrong follower so
              > the latter 'adopts the practices of a winner...'? I remember in his
              > Mahanta transcripts a description by an Eckist of how the people he
              > knew had all become gracefull over the years due to the Mahanta's
              > influence. Perhaps, there are some people his all-encompassing powers
              > cannot reach?
              >
              > A person cannot operate outside their frame of reference, or state of
              > consciousness as we here are aware. When HK manipulated his way into
              > the leadership of Eckankar, he got there as a has-been farmer/Luteran
              > student minister, with some auditory and visual hallucinations which
              > he termed 'spiritual experiences.' Courtesy Twitchell's fabrications
              > and his own psychosis.
              >
              > When he got to the top, he realised he lacked the capacity and
              > ability to take the already confused teaching to a higher level so he
              > took the easy way out by lowering it into the fraternity of
              > religions. He 'cleverly' couched this deception into his so-called
              > mission as sanctioned by the phantom Vairagi Order: 'That he was to
              > bring the teachings to the valleys', meaning to the ordinary people.
              > He was greatly relieved when this was generally accepted, but those
              > who at that early point saw through his deception left accusing him
              > of not teaching things right.
              >
              > Klemp is a walking confusion and distortion of pseudo-spirituality,
              > and he will continue to confuse himself and his members. But we who
              > are here will see every shift of his mahanta mask and notice each
              > time his true agenda darts out.
              >
              > Cheers All,
              > Pretujari
              >
            • mishmisha9
              Hi, pretujari! Good to hear from you but sorry you received such a hateful email! It doesn t sound like this eckist knows anything about divine love!! But
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 29, 2009
                Hi, pretujari!

                Good to hear from you but sorry you received such a
                hateful email! It doesn't sound like this eckist knows
                anything about divine love!! But indeed I am not surprised
                because Klemp teaches hate and anger! This behavior is
                a prime example of what is wrong with eckankar . . . really
                pitiful!

                Pashtoonfallafa, whoever you are, this should be a wake-up
                call for you! You need help; you need enlightenment! Good
                luck!

                Mish

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ed Kusi <pretujari@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Pashtoonfallafa,
                > Thanks for your mail. This is something I wrote a while ago on ESA. Though am not contributing by writing am reading most of what happens here on ESA.  I will not even give you the benefit of a reply. But am really worried if you an Eckist for you to come out with   language like that. What will your beloved master/Lem say? And did your mommy teach you to speak like that? I'm glad to have gottten a reaction from you though. The truth hurts. And what is the saying? "Every attack is a cry for help"
                > All the best, and continue to keep your head in the sand. However when you are ready for a real debate on Eckankar and your beloved master, don't hesitate to write back.
                > Pretujari
                >
                > --- On Sun, 9/27/09, pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...>
                > Subject: Re: Loser Eck Master
                > To: "pretujari" <pretujari@...>
                > Date: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 6:29 PM
                >
                > hello prejutari,
                >
                > what are you teaching?
                > what are you able to do?
                > Can you at least wipe your ass after you shit, or does your mommy still have to clean your ass?
                > You're even dumber than dirt.
                > Please don't ridicule someone unless you know myou are better than them. I know I am better than you. Hell it doesn't take much to be better than you, dickhead.
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari" <pretujari@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Prometheus and All,
                > > Klemp's mind is in overdrive in seeking subtle ways of damage control
                > > since Ford Johnson's book, and the fallout on his org. Now he is
                > > shifting blame of the non-performance of his deceptive and confusing
                > > methods onto the so-called 'headstrong losers' of his org. But isn't
                > > it the mahanta's job to loosen up a so-called headstrong follower so
                > > the latter 'adopts the practices of a winner...'? I remember in his
                > > Mahanta transcripts a description by an Eckist of how the people he
                > > knew had all become gracefull over the years due to the Mahanta's
                > > influence. Perhaps, there are some people his all-encompassing powers
                > > cannot reach?
                > >
                > > A person cannot operate outside their frame of reference, or state of
                > > consciousness as we here are aware. When HK manipulated his way into
                > > the leadership of Eckankar, he got there as a has-been farmer/Luteran
                > > student minister, with some auditory and visual hallucinations which
                > > he termed 'spiritual experiences.' Courtesy Twitchell's fabrications
                > > and his own psychosis.
                > >
                > > When he got to the top, he realised he lacked the capacity and
                > > ability to take the already confused teaching to a higher level so he
                > > took the easy way out by lowering it into the fraternity of
                > > religions. He 'cleverly' couched this deception into his so-called
                > > mission as sanctioned by the phantom Vairagi Order: 'That he was to
                > > bring the teachings to the valleys', meaning to the ordinary people.
                > > He was greatly relieved when this was generally accepted, but those
                > > who at that early point saw through his deception left accusing him
                > > of not teaching things right.
                > >
                > > Klemp is a walking confusion and distortion of pseudo-spirituality,
                > > and he will continue to confuse himself and his members. But we who
                > > are here will see every shift of his mahanta mask and notice each
                > > time his true agenda darts out.
                > >
                > > Cheers All,
                > > Pretujari
                > >
                >
              • etznab@aol.com
                I would also like to know if that person is an Eckist. As I received a personal e-mail as well, though I won t repeat it. It wasn t much nicer than the public
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 29, 2009
                  I would also like to know if that person is an Eckist.
                  As I received a personal e-mail as well, though I won't
                  repeat it.

                  It wasn't much nicer than the public comment I got
                  from that same person.

                  Etznab

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Ed Kusi <pretujari@...>
                  To: pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...>
                  Cc: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 11:00 am
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Loser Eck Master

                   






                  Hello Pashtoonfallafa,
                  Thanks for your mail. This is something I wrote a while ago on ESA.
                  Though am not contributing by writing am reading most of what happens
                  here on ESA.  I will not even give you the benefit of a reply. But am
                  really worried if you an Eckist for you to come out with   language
                  like that. What will your beloved master/Lem say? And did your mommy
                  teach you to speak like that? I'm glad to have gottten a reaction from
                  you though. The truth hurts. And what is the saying? "Every attack is a
                  cry for help"
                  All the best, and continue to keep your head in the sand. However when
                  you are ready for a real debate on Eckankar and your beloved master,
                  don't hesitate to write back.
                  Pretujari

                  --- On Sun, 9/27/09, pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...>
                  wrote:

                  From: pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...>
                  Subject: Re: Loser Eck Master
                  To: "pretujari" <pretujari@...>
                  Da
                  te: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 6:29 PM

                  hello prejutari,

                  what are you teaching?
                  what are you able to do?
                  Can you at least wipe your ass after you shit, or does your mommy still
                  have to clean your ass?
                  You're even dumber than dirt.
                  Please don't ridicule someone unless you know myou are better than
                  them. I know I am better than you. Hell it doesn't take much to be
                  better than you, dickhead.



                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"
                  <pretujari@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Prometheus and All,
                  > Klemp's mind is in overdrive in seeking
                  subtle ways of damage control
                  > since Ford Johnson's book, and the fallout on his org. Now he is
                  > shifting blame of the non-performance of his deceptive and
                  confusing
                  > methods onto the so-called 'headstrong losers' of his org. But
                  isn't
                  > it the mahanta's job to loosen up a so-called headstrong follower
                  so
                  > the latter 'adopts the practices of a winner...'? I remember in his
                  > Mahanta transcripts a description by an Eckist of how the people he
                  > knew had all become gracefull over the years due to the Mahanta's
                  > influence. Perhaps, there are some people his all-encompassing
                  powers
                  > cannot reach?
                  >
                  > A person cannot operate outside their frame of reference, or state
                  of
                  > consciousness as we here are aware. When HK manipulated his way
                  into
                  > the leadership of Eckankar, he got there as a has-be
                  en
                  farmer/Luteran
                  > student minister, with some auditory and visual
                  hallucinations which
                  > he termed 'spiritual experiences.' Courtesy Twitchell's
                  fabrications
                  > and his own psychosis.
                  >
                  > When he got to the top, he realised he lacked the capacity and
                  > ability to take the already confused teaching to a higher level so
                  he
                  > took the easy way out by lowering it into the fraternity of
                  > religions. He 'cleverly' couched this deception into his so-called
                  > mission as sanctioned by the phantom Vairagi Order: 'That he was to
                  > bring the teachings to the valleys', meaning to the ordinary
                  people.
                  > He was greatly relieved when this was generally accepted, but those
                  > who at that early point saw through his deception left accusing him
                  > of not teaching things right.
                  >
                  > Klemp is a walking confusion and distortion of pseudo-spirituality,
                  > and he will continue to confuse himself and his members. But we who
                  > are here will see every
                  shift of his mahanta mask and notice each
                  > time his true agenda darts out.
                  >
                  > Cheers All,
                  > Pretujari
                  >
                • etznab@aol.com
                  Thanks for the clarification, Prometheus. Took me a while to read the posts from today. Etznab ... From: etznab@aol.com To:
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 29, 2009
                    Thanks for the clarification, Prometheus.

                    Took me a while to read the posts from
                    today.

                    Etznab

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: etznab@...
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com;
                    pashtoonfallafa@...
                    Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 9:13 pm
                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Loser Eck Master

                     








                    I would also like to know if that person is an Eckist.

                    As I received a personal e-mail as well, though I won't

                    repeat it.



                    It wasn't much nicer than the public comment I got

                    from that same person.



                    Etznab



                    -----Original Message-----

                    From: Ed Kusi <pretujari@...>

                    To: pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...>

                    Cc: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                    Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 11:00 am

                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Loser Eck Master



                     



                    Hello Pashtoonfallafa,

                    Thanks for your mail. This is something I wrote a while ago on ESA.

                    Though am not contributing by writing am reading most of what happens

                    here on ESA.  I will not even give you the benefit of a reply. But am

                    really worried if you an Eckist for you to come out with   language

                    like that. What will your beloved master/Lem say? And did your mommy

                    teach you to speak like that? I'm glad to have gottten a reaction from

                    you though. The truth hurts. And what is the20saying? "Every attack is a

                    cry for help"

                    All the best, and continue to keep your head in the sand. However when

                    you are ready for a real debate on Eckankar and your beloved master,

                    don't hesitate to write back.

                    Pretujari



                    --- On Sun, 9/27/09, pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...>

                    wrote:



                    From: pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...>

                    Subject: Re: Loser Eck Master

                    To: "pretujari" <pretujari@...>

                    Da

                    te: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 6:29 PM



                    hello prejutari,



                    what are you teaching?

                    what are you able to do?

                    Can you at least wipe your ass after you shit, or does your mommy still

                    have to clean your ass?

                    You're even dumber than dirt.

                    Please don't ridicule someone unless you know myou are better than

                    them. I know I am better than you. Hell it doesn't take much to be

                    better than you, dickhead.



                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"

                    <pretujari@...> wrote:

                    >

                    > Hi Prometheus and All,

                    > Klemp's mind is in overdrive in seeking

                    subtle ways of damage control

                    > since Ford Johnson's book, and the fallout on his org. Now he is

                    > shifting blame of the non-performance of his deceptive and

                    confusing

                    > methods onto the so-called 'headstrong losers' of his org. But

                    isn't

                    > it the mahanta's job to loosen u
                    p a so-called headstrong follower

                    so

                    > the latter 'adopts the practices of a winner...'? I remember in his

                    > Mahanta transcripts a description by an Eckist of how the people he

                    > knew had all become gracefull over the years due to the Mahanta's

                    > influence. Perhaps, there are some people his all-encompassing

                    powers

                    > cannot reach?

                    >

                    > A person cannot operate outside their frame of reference, or state

                    of

                    > consciousness as we here are aware. When HK manipulated his way

                    into

                    > the leadership of Eckankar, he got there as a has-be

                    en

                    farmer/Luteran

                    > student minister, with some auditory and visual

                    hallucinations which

                    > he termed 'spiritual experiences.' Courtesy Twitchell's

                    fabrications

                    > and his own psychosis.

                    >

                    > When he got to the top, he realised he lacked the capacity and

                    > ability to take the already confused teaching to a higher level so

                    he

                    > took the easy way out by lowering it into the fraternity of

                    > religions. He 'cleverly' couched this deception into his so-called

                    > mission as sanctioned by the phantom Vairagi Order: 'That he was to

                    > bring the teachings to the valleys', meaning to the ordinary

                    people.

                    > He was greatly relieved when this was generally accepted, but those

                    > who at that early point saw through his deception left accu
                    sing him

                    > of not teaching things right.

                    >

                    > Klemp is a walking confusion and distortion of pseudo-spirituality,

                    > and he will continue to confuse himself and his members. But we who

                    > are here will see every

                    shift of his mahanta mask and notice each

                    > time his true agenda darts out.

                    >

                    > Cheers All,

                    > Pretujari

                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Etznab and All, As I said before this same Eckist (Susan Vanwijlen) posting on ESA is pashtoonfallafa. Susie mistakenly sent me another email with the
                    Message 9 of 13 , Sep 29, 2009
                      Hello Etznab and All,
                      As I said before this same Eckist
                      (Susan Vanwijlen) posting on ESA
                      is pashtoonfallafa. "Susie" mistakenly
                      sent me another email with the
                      pashtoonfallafa Yahoo address. She
                      inadvertently used it when wanting
                      to explain herself in regard to the
                      the mini God/mini Master topic that
                      I had previously pointed out to her.

                      It is interesting that Susan claims to have
                      joined Klemp and Company in 1993.
                      Strange that she knew all about Twitchell's
                      plagiarisms but didn't know Darwin had
                      died in March 2008! I wonder if she noticed
                      the 10 year gap (1971-1981) in "EK" History
                      and that there was a 972nd LEM/Mahanta.

                      FYI: I was looking at an old Wisdom Note
                      of PT's (after Jan. 1969) and he claimed
                      that all LEMs become/are Mahantas!
                      Thus, by this standard Darwin was the
                      Mahanta. This is why Klemp, also, used
                      Rebazar to get what he wanted. HK used
                      PT's Rebazar character to kick Darwin
                      to the curb since he (HK) was just a 12th
                      Initiate and RT had the authority as
                      "Torchbearer" and as a former Mahanta.
                      Thus, we find the fictional Rebazar being
                      used as a stopgap for anything and
                      everything... a perfect Catch-22.

                      Prometheus


                      etznab wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      I would also like to know if
                      that person is an Eckist. As I
                      received a personal e-mail
                      as well, though I won't repeat
                      it.
                      >
                      It wasn't much nicer than the
                      public comment I got from that
                      same person.
                      >
                      > Etznab

                      pashtoonfallafa (susie) wrote:

                      hello prejutari,
                      >
                      what are you teaching?
                      what are you able to do?
                      Can you at least wipe your
                      ass after you shit, or does
                      your mommy still have to
                      clean your ass? You're even
                      dumber than dirt. Please don't
                      ridicule someone unless you
                      know myou are better than
                      them. I know I am better than
                      you. Hell it doesn't take much
                      to be better than you, dickhead.

                      susie wrote:
                      Oh Dear Mish. I did not know Darwin
                      died because I joined Eckankar in 1993.
                      Darwin had left Eckankar and his name
                      never came up in any discussion. Hence
                      I never even knew he existed. That is how
                      I did not know he died in 2008.

                      mish wrote:


                      Oh, dear, Susie! How can you not know that Darwin died?
                      Well, yes, Klemp didn't bother to make an announcement when
                      he passed even though many eckists on the internet on various
                      sites did say some kind words about Darwin at his passing. And
                      many were surprised and disappointed by Klemp's silence.
                      To me, Klemp's silence was still yet another example of Klemp's
                      inability to relate to others, to feel true compassion and love . . .
                      Pity really that so many are following such a cold hearted and
                      mean spirited delusional con man. It is a shame that chelas
                      give Klemp the power to disrupt their lives, isolate and insulate
                      them from the real world and even worse to impede and stop critical
                      thinking! Because to follow eckankar and Klemp, a chela
                      must stop thinking critically!!

                      I can well imagine that ESA is disturbing to you, but rather than
                      to debate or argue about eckankar, why not spend the time
                      reading the old posts here and also the information in the files.
                      If you have questions, I'm sure some here will try to help answer
                      them. But basically do some reading and start thinking about
                      some of these discussions and information . . . make your own
                      conclusions. . . and then you will be practicing free will by utilizing
                      your talents of critical thinking! Think for yourself . . . this is something
                      that eckankar does not teach or want! Good luck and best wishes!

                      Mish

                      susiemieuxmieux (Susan Vanwijlen) wrote:

                      I will send an e-mail to Darwin Gross and ask
                      him if Paul Twitchell ever plagiarized. Since Darwin
                      Gross took over Eckakar after Paul Twitchell translated
                      I think Darwin Gross would be the best person
                      to answer that question. I will keep you posted
                      on their response.
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      Good FYI point. Etznab ... From: prometheus_973 To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 10:14 pm
                      Message 10 of 13 , Sep 30, 2009
                        Good FYI point.

                        Etznab

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 10:14 pm
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Loser Eck Master & followers

                         






                        Hello Etznab and All,

                        As I said before this same Eckist

                        (Susan Vanwijlen) posting on ESA

                        is pashtoonfallafa. "Susie" mistakenly

                        sent me another email with the

                        pashtoonfallafa Yahoo address. She

                        inadvertently used it when wanting

                        to explain herself in regard to the

                        the mini God/mini Master topic that

                        I had previously pointed out to her.



                        It is interesting that Susan claims to have

                        joined Klemp and Company in 1993.

                        Strange that she knew all about Twitchell's

                        plagiarisms but didn't know Darwin had

                        died in March 2008! I wonder if she noticed

                        the 10 year gap (1971-1981) in "EK" History

                        and that there was a 972nd LEM/Mahanta.



                        FYI: I was looking at an old Wisdom Note

                        of PT's (after Jan. 1969) and he claimed

                        that all LEMs become/are Mahantas!

                        Thus, by this standard Darwin was the

                        Mahanta. This is why Klemp, also, used

                        Rebazar to get what he wanted. HK used

                        PT's Rebazar character to kick Darwin

                        to the curb since he (HK) was just a 12th

                        Initiate and RT had the authority as

                        "Torchbearer" and as a former Mahanta.

                        Thus, w
                        e find the fictional Rebazar being

                        used as a stopgap for anything and

                        everything... a perfect Catch-22.



                        Prometheus



                        etznab wrote:

                        >

                        >

                        I would also like to know if

                        that person is an Eckist. As I

                        received a personal e-mail

                        as well, though I won't repeat

                        it.

                        >

                        It wasn't much nicer than the

                        public comment I got from that

                        same person.

                        >

                        > Etznab



                        pashtoonfallafa (susie) wrote:



                        hello prejutari,

                        >

                        what are you teaching?

                        what are you able to do?

                        Can you at least wipe your

                        ass after you shit, or does

                        your mommy still have to

                        clean your ass? You're even

                        dumber than dirt. Please don't

                        ridicule someone unless you

                        know myou are better than

                        them. I know I am better than

                        you. Hell it doesn't take much

                        to be better than you, dickhead.



                        susie wrote:

                        Oh Dear Mish. I did not know Darwin

                        died because I joined Eckankar in 1993.

                        Darwin had left Eckankar and his name

                        never came up in any discussion. Hence

                        I never even knew he existed. That is how

                        I did not know he died in 2008.



                        mish wrote:



                        Oh, dear, Susie! How can you not know that Darwin died?

                        Well, yes, Klemp didn't bother to make an announcement when

                        he passed even though many eckists on
                        the internet on various

                        sites did say some kind words about Darwin at his passing. And

                        many were surprised and disappointed by Klemp's silence.

                        To me, Klemp's silence was still yet another example of Klemp's

                        inability to relate to others, to feel true compassion and love . . .

                        Pity really that so many are following such a cold hearted and

                        mean spirited delusional con man. It is a shame that chelas

                        give Klemp the power to disrupt their lives, isolate and insulate

                        them from the real world and even worse to impede and stop critical

                        thinking! Because to follow eckankar and Klemp, a chela

                        must stop thinking critically!!



                        I can well imagine that ESA is disturbing to you, but rather than

                        to debate or argue about eckankar, why not spend the time

                        reading the old posts here and also the information in the files.

                        If you have questions, I'm sure some here will try to help answer

                        them. But basically do some reading and start thinking about

                        some of these discussions and information . . . make your own

                        conclusions. . . and then you will be practicing free will by utilizing

                        your talents of critical thinking! Think for yourself . . . this is
                        something

                        that eckankar does not teach or want! Good luck and best wishes!



                        Mish



                        susiemieuxmieux (Susan Vanwijlen) wrote:



                        I will send an e-mail to Darwin Gross and ask

                        him
                        if Paul Twitchell ever plagiarized. Since Darwin

                        Gross took over Eckakar after Paul Twitchell translated

                        I think Darwin Gross would be the best person

                        to answer that question. I will keep you posted

                        on their response.
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Etznab and All, Glad you liked the FYI point. I was watching a show on North Korea and the creation of their religion (Juche) in 1955 and it reminded
                        Message 11 of 13 , Sep 30, 2009
                          Hello Etznab and All,
                          Glad you liked the FYI point. I was watching
                          a show on North Korea and the creation of
                          their "religion" (Juche) in 1955 and it reminded
                          me of Twitchell's creation (Eckankar) in 1965.

                          Juche is a combination of Confucianism with
                          political ideals and enforced laws, as well as,
                          a hierarchy. The "Great Leader" is seen as the
                          "Father" and all of the followers (everyone)
                          are considered as his family (the children).

                          Anyway, I can see the parallels of belief
                          with Eckankar and with Klemp's role as
                          the Great Leader (LEM/Mahanta). And,
                          since Eckankar, too, is a patriarchy with
                          only male leaders Klemp is the Father figure.
                          Also, there's the RESA (police) hierarchy,
                          and the warnings and repercussions to
                          those who go against the Mahanta and
                          don't Surrender their wills and Wills to him.

                          http://www.patheos.com/Library/Juche.html

                          http://www.stanford.edu/group/sjeaa/journal3/korea1.pdf

                          On another note: I saw Dr. Phil's Show on
                          The American Girl (Doll) Store and the philosophy
                          of finding one's "Inner Star." It seemed to
                          be much more advanced and practical than
                          anything Klemp could come up with. Actually,
                          I'm thinking that Klemp and Company might
                          have taken some of this info from the American
                          Girl Books and used it in answering questions
                          (and discourses) for/from the EK Youth. Klemp
                          has to steal the thoughts and ideas or "stories"
                          of others just as Twitchell did. Thus, HK is Not
                          Who or What he claims (an Intellectual or Prophet)
                          on the outer OR on the Inner!

                          Basically, Klemp's power is based upon what
                          EKists are willing to give him via their imaginations...
                          like with Kim Jong II. Now, EKists just need to
                          give themselves (via Soul = Soul) that same
                          power, imaginary height, and spiritual freedom.
                          But, Klemp doesn't like to share, thus, he slowed
                          down initiations more than 20 years ago and
                          created a glass ceiling of the 7th Initiation for
                          99.99% of his followers. In the mean time HK
                          keeps promoting himself (via the EK Adepts,
                          the ECK, and more B.S., etc.) to even Higher
                          initiations!

                          BTW- I wonder what Outer Initiation Level
                          Klemp now has as the LEM/Mahanta? What
                          Inner initiation Level does HK now have?

                          Prometheus


                          etznab wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Good FYI point.
                          >
                          > Etznab

                          > Hello Etznab and All,
                          >
                          > As I said before this same Eckist
                          >
                          > (Susan Vanwijlen) posting on ESA
                          >
                          > is pashtoonfallafa. "Susie" mistakenly
                          >
                          > sent me another email with the
                          >
                          > pashtoonfallafa Yahoo address. She
                          >
                          > inadvertently used it when wanting
                          >
                          > to explain herself in regard to the
                          >
                          > the mini God/mini Master topic that
                          >
                          > I had previously pointed out to her.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > It is interesting that Susan claims to have
                          >
                          > joined Klemp and Company in 1993.
                          >
                          > Strange that she knew all about Twitchell's
                          >
                          > plagiarisms but didn't know Darwin had
                          >
                          > died in March 2008! I wonder if she noticed
                          >
                          > the 10 year gap (1971-1981) in "EK" History
                          >
                          > and that there was a 972nd LEM/Mahanta.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > FYI: I was looking at an old Wisdom Note
                          >
                          > of PT's (after Jan. 1969) and he claimed
                          >
                          > that all LEMs become/are Mahantas!
                          >
                          > Thus, by this standard Darwin was the
                          >
                          > Mahanta. This is why Klemp, also, used
                          >
                          > Rebazar to get what he wanted. HK used
                          >
                          > PT's Rebazar character to kick Darwin
                          >
                          > to the curb since he (HK) was just a 12th
                          >
                          > Initiate and RT had the authority as
                          >
                          > "Torchbearer" and as a former Mahanta.
                          >
                          > Thus, we find the fictional Rebazar being
                          >
                          > used as a stopgap for anything and
                          >
                          > everything... a perfect Catch-22.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Etznab and All, Interesting info. The verdict isn t out for me. I KNOW that these desperately needy Eckists NEVER saw Rebazar prior to joining
                          Message 12 of 13 , Oct 1, 2009
                            Hello Etznab and All,
                            Interesting info. The verdict isn't out for me.
                            I KNOW that these desperately needy Eckists
                            NEVER saw Rebazar "prior" to joining Eckankar.
                            They are mistaken, delusional, liars, and wanna-
                            bes. I know this because 500 year old EK Master
                            Rebazar isn't real! He's only as "real" as any
                            fictional character, anywhere, is "real." Jesus,
                            Buddha, Krishna, and thousands of others,
                            on the other hand, have an older history than
                            500 year old Rebazar and are/were actually
                            "real" people.

                            Paul probably dreamed up Rebazar's name
                            while in San Diego and did his standard letter
                            switch around. There is proof that Twitchell
                            switched out Kirpal Singh's name in The Flute
                            of God and The Tiger's Fang and substituted
                            the fictional Rebazar. Paul needed a Grand
                            EK Master to Initiate him. This is, also, why
                            PT had to kill off LEM Sudar Singh. There was
                            too close of a connection to the other Singh...
                            Kirpal. Really, why would 970th LEM Sudar
                            Singh hand Paul off to Rebazar? What is the
                            need for an LEM, then, if he needs to hand
                            people off to Rebazar? Shouldn't a LEM/Mahanta
                            have been able to teach and give a lower
                            initiate, PT, what he needed? Rebazar was
                            working under 970th LEM/Mahanta Sudar.

                            Thus, if 500 year old "Torchbearer" Rebazar
                            did actually exist in the minds of ECKists...
                            Why would they want/need Klemp when
                            Paul Twitchell didn't need his LEM/Mahanta?

                            I know that Klemp doesn't list (EK Lexicon)
                            some of these LEM's as Mahantas, but Twitch
                            states that all LEMs are Mahantas! Who should
                            ECKists believe? Klemp is aging rapidly and
                            has never written a Shariyat 3, or should they
                            believe Twitchell... a known liar.

                            Perhaps ECKists should look to Soul and the
                            ECK (Holy Spirit) versus another manmade religion.

                            "PAUL TWITCHELL PRESENTS: The Wisdom Notes
                            (Vol. 2 No. 8) August 1969

                            Therefore, each living ECK Master becomes the
                            Mahanta. Each of them attains this consciousness
                            and becomes the saviour of the age for his own
                            people. He is able to eliminate the suffering and
                            desires of the chelas by giving them the ability
                            to partake of the living Life Stream - the ECK.
                            This explains why Buddhism ceased to be a
                            dynamic force soon after the death of the
                            illustrious Buddha. The same fate has overtaken
                            all other religions and without exception it
                            must be this way. The usual life of any orthodox
                            religion is approximately two thousand years
                            on this planet."

                            [Note: Paul was still tweaking Eckankar and
                            was not capitalizing "living" in "Living" ECK
                            Master at this time. This is not an editing or
                            proof reading mistake. This is how "living
                            Master" is used in The Path of the Masters.]

                            I guess that one could argue that Sudar knew
                            he would be dying before PT could be trained
                            to take his place and that's why he was handed
                            off to Rebazar. Thus, once again, the fictional
                            Rebazar is being used as a stop-gap! Therefore,
                            anyone can use this fictional Rebazar character
                            anyway they can imagine!

                            However, Klemp has established hierarchical
                            safeguards as to what "dreams" are permitted
                            by EKists least his "authority" be challenged.
                            This is why all dreams and stories, involving
                            EK Masters, have to have written approval
                            (for validity, etc.) before they can be shared.

                            However, these dream stories cannot cross
                            the line. A perfect example of this is in the
                            recent article "May Thy Will Be Mine" in the
                            09/2009 Mystic World where, in a dream,
                            "Jane was aware of the Rod of ECK Power
                            in the Mahanta's hands..." There is No Way
                            that Jane would have been permitted to
                            "hold" the Rod, although, this would be
                            less threatening (since Jane was female)
                            than if say, "James," was to have a dream
                            holding the Rod of ECK Power! Thus, EKists
                            need to be very careful of what they dream
                            and, especially, what they share or write to
                            the ESC in an IRO or what they submit as an
                            EK Story.

                            Prometheus



                            etznab wrote:

                            FYI: I was looking at an old Wisdom Note
                            of PT's (after Jan. 1969) and he claimed
                            that all LEMs become/are Mahantas!
                            Thus, by this standard Darwin was the
                            Mahanta. This is why Klemp, also, used
                            Rebazar to get what he wanted. HK used
                            PT's Rebazar character to kick Darwin
                            to the curb since he (HK) was just a 12th
                            Initiate and RT had the authority as
                            "Torchbearer" and as a former Mahanta.
                            Thus, we find the fictional Rebazar being
                            used as a stopgap for anything and
                            everything... a perfect Catch-22.

                            Prometheus

                            *****************************************************

                            Darwin tried to use Rebazar Tarzs (and other
                            Eck Masters) to remove Harold Klemp first!

                            According to testimony taken on May 31st, 1984,
                            the former Living ECK Master, Darwin Gross, report-
                            edly claimed that in January, 1983, his successor,
                            Harold Klemp, was asked to step aside. Reportedly,
                            it was Rebazar Tarz and Yaubl Sacabi who asked
                            Harold Klemp to step aside.

                            See Confessions of a God Seeker, A Journey to
                            Higher Consciousness, p. 239

                            Here is a quote from Harold's letter to Darwin Gross.
                            according to Ford's book (also on p. 239):

                            Dear Darwin:

                            The Order of the Vairagi ECK Masters no longer
                            recognizes you as an ECK Master. As the agent of
                            the ECK, I have removed all of your initiations in ECK
                            as well as terminated your membership in Eckankar.
                            You are not capable or authorized to act or speak for
                            or about the Vairagi ECK Masters, Eckankar or the
                            ECK Teachings, nor are you to hold yourself out as
                            an ECK Master or ECK member."

                            [See: Confessions of a God Seeker, A Journey to
                            Higher Consciousness, p. 239]

                            *****************************************************

                            I've sought to clarify it myself who, or what exactly
                            is Rebazar Tarzs. I've researched and asked several
                            questions (on A.R.E. especially). The verdict appears
                            to be the Eck Masters are real - according to stories
                            from people claiming to have met them before they
                            ever heard of Eckankar, or saw any pictures of the
                            Eck Masters. That is what I've heard people say. It's
                            not surprising because Harold says the same basic
                            thing:

                            Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists.
                            They ask if Paul just borrowed a name from the Far
                            East and made him up. Yet people report having met
                            the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of Eck-
                            ankar. The ECK Masters are real.

                            [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual
                            Lessons) by Harold Klemp - see link]

                            http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training

                            So, the verdict (according to some people) says
                            the Eck Masters are real because people say they
                            are real.

                            I'm still not convinced what to make of all this. It
                            could be people's imaginations. I don't know what
                            the truth is exactly.

                            Etznab
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.