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RE: Loser Eck Master

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  • pretujari
    Hi Prometheus and All, Klemp s mind is in overdrive in seeking subtle ways of damage control since Ford Johnson s book, and the fallout on his org. Now he is
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 7, 2006
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      Hi Prometheus and All,
      Klemp's mind is in overdrive in seeking subtle ways of damage control
      since Ford Johnson's book, and the fallout on his org. Now he is
      shifting blame of the non-performance of his deceptive and confusing
      methods onto the so-called 'headstrong losers' of his org. But isn't
      it the mahanta's job to loosen up a so-called headstrong follower so
      the latter 'adopts the practices of a winner...'? I remember in his
      Mahanta transcripts a description by an Eckist of how the people he
      knew had all become gracefull over the years due to the Mahanta's
      influence. Perhaps, there are some people his all-encompassing powers
      cannot reach?

      A person cannot operate outside their frame of reference, or state of
      consciousness as we here are aware. When HK manipulated his way into
      the leadership of Eckankar, he got there as a has-been farmer/Luteran
      student minister, with some auditory and visual hallucinations which
      he termed 'spiritual experiences.' Courtesy Twitchell's fabrications
      and his own psychosis.

      When he got to the top, he realised he lacked the capacity and
      ability to take the already confused teaching to a higher level so he
      took the easy way out by lowering it into the fraternity of
      religions. He 'cleverly' couched this deception into his so-called
      mission as sanctioned by the phantom Vairagi Order: 'That he was to
      bring the teachings to the valleys', meaning to the ordinary people.
      He was greatly relieved when this was generally accepted, but those
      who at that early point saw through his deception left accusing him
      of not teaching things right.

      Klemp is a walking confusion and distortion of pseudo-spirituality,
      and he will continue to confuse himself and his members. But we who
      are here will see every shift of his mahanta mask and notice each
      time his true agenda darts out.

      Cheers All,
      Pretujari
    • mishmisha9
      Hello, All! Very nice posts on the loser eck master here! I would will interject a few comments below. ... control since Ford Johnson s book, and the fallout
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 7, 2006
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        Hello, All!

        Very nice posts on the "loser eck master" here!

        I would will interject a few comments below.

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"
        <pretujari@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Prometheus and All,
        > Klemp's mind is in overdrive in seeking subtle ways of damage
        control since Ford Johnson's book, and the fallout on his org. Now
        he is shifting blame of the non-performance of his deceptive and
        confusing methods onto the so-called 'headstrong losers' of his org.
        But isn't it the mahanta's job to loosen up a so-called headstrong
        follower so the latter 'adopts the practices of a winner...'? I
        remember in his Mahanta transcripts a description by an Eckist of
        how the people he knew had all become gracefull over the years due
        to the Mahanta's influence. Perhaps, there are some people his all-
        encompassing powers cannot reach?
        >

        Mish: There are some eckists who are trying to hold onto their
        independent minds, and I guess from what HK is saying here, he is
        calling them losers. He doesn't want to have them in his org. It
        would naturally be so much easier for him to not have to deal with
        their questions and more advanced individualized way of looking at
        things. When people join groups in which they agree to follow a
        guru, they give up their independence and must kneel to this so
        called greater than thou leader! Why would anyone really agree to
        this? I guess one is looking one way and seeing something of value
        while subtly giving up something more--freedom. It happens when we
        don't pay attention to details and trust in what others are saying.

        > A person cannot operate outside their frame of reference, or state
        of consciousness as we here are aware. When HK manipulated his way
        into the leadership of Eckankar, he got there as a has-been
        farmer/Luteran student minister, with some auditory and visual
        hallucinations which he termed 'spiritual experiences.' Courtesy
        Twitchell's fabrications and his own psychosis.
        >

        Mish: This is very true and Pretujari states it in a nutshell! : )


        > When he got to the top, he realised he lacked the capacity and
        ability to take the already confused teaching to a higher level so
        he took the easy way out by lowering it into the fraternity of
        religions. He 'cleverly' couched this deception into his so-called
        mission as sanctioned by the phantom Vairagi Order: 'That he was to
        bring the teachings to the valleys', meaning to the ordinary people.
        He was greatly relieved when this was generally accepted, but those
        who at that early point saw through his deception left accusing him
        of not teaching things right.
        >

        Mish: It was generally accepted because eckists didn't know where to
        go, and hoped that it would get better as HK settled into his duties
        as L.E.M. Many are still remaining because they claim that eckankar
        has done so much for them and that it is the teachings that are of
        value to them. Eckists are trained to make too many assumptions,
        replying upon what they think are inner truths that are programmed
        into their minds by the outer distortions of the dogma they give
        belief to! Still, I suppose some of them ignore HK silently (not
        buying into it all)--smiling back at him as he smilingly gazes upon
        them! LOL!


        > Klemp is a walking confusion and distortion of pseudo-
        spirituality, and he will continue to confuse himself and his
        members. But we who are here will see every shift of his mahanta
        mask and notice each time his true agenda darts out.
        >

        Mish: Yes, everytime HK opens his mouth or writes some more of his
        dribble, we will see him for who he really is! Will the real loser
        please stand up! : )

        > Cheers All,
        > Pretujari

        Here's something for eckists to think about! When HK is showing his
        claws as he has in calling some chelas losers, well, be warned.
        Because he just might be calling you losers tomorrow. If he is
        operating at all above a delusional state, then he knows that his
        intent is to scam, and in his scamming mind he would consider
        those who fall for it to be "losers!" So which is it, with HK, is he
        delusional or is he just another con like PT--or is he some of both?
        Regardless, he is still accountable for his actions and what he does
        and says to others!

        Mish
      • fredevah
        Hi Prometheus, pretujari and All, He who engages in presenting lies as truth is indeed endangering his own life. For he has to face the consequences for
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 13, 2006
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          Hi Prometheus, pretujari and All,
          He who engages in presenting lies as truth is indeed endangering his
          own life. For he has to face the consequences for deceiving humankind
          whether he knows it or not, ignornce is not an excuse. If Harold
          truly knows the implication of what he is doing he would have thought
          otherwise to fine tune the Eckankar teachings to meet the aspirations
          of the day. I guess he doesn't know. If he doesn't then we are quite
          convinced that he is truly not a master. I am sure he is getting it
          hot with Law of Karma. People are interested in truth and not dogma
          these days and Harold fails to recognise that. When members in a
          group like ECKANKAR realize the shoddy deals of the group they will
          have to leave for something better so why call them loosers. If they
          are really loosers people will see it in them so let Harold watch.
          When a man suffers for his own actions is he a looser or a winner.
          Harold need to stop pretending, all is not well with him. He is only
          struggling to hold tight his flock. Harold is afraid that Eckankar
          will collapse in his time, he is highly worried about it. He has no
          option than to call those who have abandon his group loosers.
          He has to do that to encourage himself rather than cry out to the
          public. Deep within Harold, he is crying as notable figures that made
          Eckankar thick have left his group. Harold is indeed a LOOSER
          ECKMASTER. We need to show him compassion considering what he will be
          going through in the years to come. Take a look at the quote below.

          "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!for you shut up
          the kingdom of heaven against men:for you neither go in yourselves,
          neither allow you them that are entering to go in. – Mathew 23:13"

          Harold did not realize that by presenting lies as truth he is shuttng
          the the kingdom of heaven against men and himself. Like I said he has
          a price to pay for that. He cannot run away from it. He is not above
          the law.

          I love you all.

          Fred.

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
          <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello, All!
          >
          > Very nice posts on the "loser eck master" here!
          >
          > I would will interject a few comments below.
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"
          > <pretujari@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Prometheus and All,
          > > Klemp's mind is in overdrive in seeking subtle ways of damage
          > control since Ford Johnson's book, and the fallout on his org. Now
          > he is shifting blame of the non-performance of his deceptive and
          > confusing methods onto the so-called 'headstrong losers' of his
          org.
          > But isn't it the mahanta's job to loosen up a so-called headstrong
          > follower so the latter 'adopts the practices of a winner...'? I
          > remember in his Mahanta transcripts a description by an Eckist of
          > how the people he knew had all become gracefull over the years due
          > to the Mahanta's influence. Perhaps, there are some people his all-
          > encompassing powers cannot reach?
          > >
          >
          > Mish: There are some eckists who are trying to hold onto their
          > independent minds, and I guess from what HK is saying here, he is
          > calling them losers. He doesn't want to have them in his org. It
          > would naturally be so much easier for him to not have to deal with
          > their questions and more advanced individualized way of looking at
          > things. When people join groups in which they agree to follow a
          > guru, they give up their independence and must kneel to this so
          > called greater than thou leader! Why would anyone really agree to
          > this? I guess one is looking one way and seeing something of value
          > while subtly giving up something more--freedom. It happens when we
          > don't pay attention to details and trust in what others are
          saying.
          >
          > > A person cannot operate outside their frame of reference, or
          state
          > of consciousness as we here are aware. When HK manipulated his way
          > into the leadership of Eckankar, he got there as a has-been
          > farmer/Luteran student minister, with some auditory and visual
          > hallucinations which he termed 'spiritual experiences.' Courtesy
          > Twitchell's fabrications and his own psychosis.
          > >
          >
          > Mish: This is very true and Pretujari states it in a nutshell! : )
          >
          >
          > > When he got to the top, he realised he lacked the capacity and
          > ability to take the already confused teaching to a higher level so
          > he took the easy way out by lowering it into the fraternity of
          > religions. He 'cleverly' couched this deception into his so-called
          > mission as sanctioned by the phantom Vairagi Order: 'That he was to
          > bring the teachings to the valleys', meaning to the ordinary
          people.
          > He was greatly relieved when this was generally accepted, but those
          > who at that early point saw through his deception left accusing him
          > of not teaching things right.
          > >
          >
          > Mish: It was generally accepted because eckists didn't know where
          to
          > go, and hoped that it would get better as HK settled into his
          duties
          > as L.E.M. Many are still remaining because they claim that eckankar
          > has done so much for them and that it is the teachings that are of
          > value to them. Eckists are trained to make too many assumptions,
          > replying upon what they think are inner truths that are programmed
          > into their minds by the outer distortions of the dogma they give
          > belief to! Still, I suppose some of them ignore HK silently (not
          > buying into it all)--smiling back at him as he smilingly gazes upon
          > them! LOL!
          >
          >
          > > Klemp is a walking confusion and distortion of pseudo-
          > spirituality, and he will continue to confuse himself and his
          > members. But we who are here will see every shift of his mahanta
          > mask and notice each time his true agenda darts out.
          > >
          >
          > Mish: Yes, everytime HK opens his mouth or writes some more of his
          > dribble, we will see him for who he really is! Will the real loser
          > please stand up! : )
          >
          > > Cheers All,
          > > Pretujari
          >
          > Here's something for eckists to think about! When HK is showing his
          > claws as he has in calling some chelas losers, well, be warned.
          > Because he just might be calling you losers tomorrow. If he is
          > operating at all above a delusional state, then he knows that his
          > intent is to scam, and in his scamming mind he would consider
          > those who fall for it to be "losers!" So which is it, with HK, is
          he
          > delusional or is he just another con like PT--or is he some of
          both?
          > Regardless, he is still accountable for his actions and what he
          does
          > and says to others!
          >
          > Mish
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Fred, Thank you for the post. I must say that I probably have more compassion for Klemp than he does for me, other former Eckists, and for the loser
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 13, 2006
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            Hello Fred,
            Thank you for the post. I must say that I probably have more
            compassion for Klemp than he does for me, other former Eckists, and
            for the "loser" Eckists! The bigger problem with Klemp is that many
            Eckists will emulate him and his comments to others. There are many
            Eckists that loved his "loser" statement and see it as opening the
            door for their own nastiness to others. Klemp is the model of
            behavior to his chelas. Now when Eckists are dealing with non-
            Eckist temporary postal clerks, who will ask to see an ID before
            looking for their package, or with Eckists who are frustrated with
            the initiation procedures and requirements these neo-Eckists will
            now know how to handle the dissidents! Every good Eckist must wear
            blinders, keep silent, march in step, and salute the LEM/Mahanta!

            Klemp is way off track when he talks of being a "winner" versus
            being a "loser." Being a "winner" is way over-rated in this society.
            What does being a "winner" really mean, how do "winners" behave,
            what do "winner" look like? This is a very ironic position for HK to
            take because prior to becoming a High Initiate in Eckankar Klemp was
            himself a loser! In school, on the farm, at the seminary, in the Air
            Force, with relationships, in the business world, etc., etc.
            Therefore, one would think that Klemp would be more sensitive with
            his speech. After all, Eckists are rather fragile and sensitive
            Souls so why would their Mahanta call some of them "LOSERS!" Isn't
            this something that someone would call a stranger, usually, when
            they have angered you. Calling someone a "loser" is a very
            disrespectful thing to say to a person, and is usually said behind
            one's back! What is Klemp teaching or telling the Eck Youth with his
            behavior? <sigh>

            I really don't believe that Klemp is worried about Eckankar
            collapsing in his lifetime. HK has enough money squirreled away to
            last two lifetimes! However, he does enjoy being worshipped both on
            the outer and on the Inner Planes! LOL! Klemp's vanity is probably
            more motivation for him to keep Eckankar going more than any other
            reason. Once on that throne it's hard to step down. I'm sure,
            however, that he'll still be hanging around and writing his trash
            even when a new LEM does take over someday. And, I doubt if Klemp
            will be giving up the Mahantaship for at least 5 years after that
            transition... if at all!

            Prometheus


            fredevah wrote:

            Hi Prometheus, pretujari and All,
            He who engages in presenting lies as truth is indeed endangering his
            own life. For he has to face the consequences for deceiving
            humankind whether he knows it or not, ignornce is not an excuse. If
            Harold truly knows the implication of what he is doing he would have
            thought otherwise to fine tune the Eckankar teachings to meet the
            aspirations of the day. I guess he doesn't know. If he doesn't then
            we are quite convinced that he is truly not a master. I am sure he
            is getting it hot with Law of Karma. People are interested in truth
            and not dogma these days and Harold fails to recognise that. When
            members in a group like ECKANKAR realize the shoddy deals of the
            group they will have to leave for something better so why call them
            loosers. If they are really loosers people will see it in them so
            let Harold watch. When a man suffers for his own actions is he a
            looser or a winner. Harold need to stop pretending, all is not well
            with him. He is only struggling to hold tight his flock. Harold is
            afraid that Eckankar will collapse in his time, he is highly worried
            about it. He has no option than to call those who have abandon his
            group loosers. He has to do that to encourage himself rather than
            cry out to the public. Deep within Harold, he is crying as notable
            figures that made Eckankar thick have left his group. Harold is
            indeed a LOOSER ECKMASTER. We need to show him compassion
            considering what he will be going through in the years to come. Take
            a look at the quote below.

            "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!for you shut up
            the kingdom of heaven against men:for you neither go in yourselves,
            neither allow you them that are entering to go in. – Mathew 23:13"

            Harold did not realize that by presenting lies as truth he is
            shuttng the the kingdom of heaven against men and himself. Like I
            said he has a price to pay for that. He cannot run away from it. He
            is not above the law.

            I love you all.

            Fred.

            mishmisha wrote:

            Hello, All!

            Very nice posts on the "loser eck master" here!

            I would will interject a few comments below.

            pretujari wrote:

            Hi Prometheus and All,
            Klemp's mind is in overdrive in seeking subtle ways of damage
            control since Ford Johnson's book, and the fallout on his org. Now
            he is shifting blame of the non-performance of his deceptive and
            confusing methods onto the so-called 'headstrong losers' of his
            org. But isn't it the mahanta's job to loosen up a so-called
            headstrong follower so the latter 'adopts the practices of a
            winner...'? I remember in his Mahanta transcripts a description by
            an Eckist of how the people he knew had all become gracefull over
            the years due to the Mahanta's influence. Perhaps, there are some
            people his all-encompassing powers cannot reach?


            Mish: There are some eckists who are trying to hold onto their
            independent minds, and I guess from what HK is saying here, he is
            calling them losers. He doesn't want to have them in his org. It
            would naturally be so much easier for him to not have to deal with
            their questions and more advanced individualized way of looking at
            things. When people join groups in which they agree to follow a
            guru, they give up their independence and must kneel to this so
            called greater than thou leader! Why would anyone really agree to
            this? I guess one is looking one way and seeing something of value
            while subtly giving up something more--freedom. It happens when we
            don't pay attention to details and trust in what others are
            saying.

            A person cannot operate outside their frame of reference, or state
            of consciousness as we here are aware. When HK manipulated his way
            into the leadership of Eckankar, he got there as a has-been
            farmer/Luteran student minister, with some auditory and visual
            hallucinations which he termed 'spiritual experiences.' Courtesy
            Twitchell's fabrications and his own psychosis.


            Mish: This is very true and Pretujari states it in a nutshell! : )


            When he got to the top, he realised he lacked the capacity and
            ability to take the already confused teaching to a higher level so
            he took the easy way out by lowering it into the fraternity of
            religions. He 'cleverly' couched this deception into his so-called
            mission as sanctioned by the phantom Vairagi Order: 'That he was to
            bring the teachings to the valleys', meaning to the ordinary people.
            He was greatly relieved when this was generally accepted, but those
            who at that early point saw through his deception left accusing him
            of not teaching things right.


            Mish: It was generally accepted because eckists didn't know where to
            go, and hoped that it would get better as HK settled into his duties
            as L.E.M. Many are still remaining because they claim that eckankar
            has done so much for them and that it is the teachings that are of
            value to them. Eckists are trained to make too many assumptions,
            replying upon what they think are inner truths that are programmed
            into their minds by the outer distortions of the dogma they give
            belief to! Still, I suppose some of them ignore HK silently (not
            buying into it all)--smiling back at him as he smilingly gazes upon
            them! LOL!


            Klemp is a walking confusion and distortion of pseudo-spirituality,
            and he will continue to confuse himself and his members. But we who
            are here will see every shift of his mahanta mask and notice each
            time his true agenda darts out.


            Mish: Yes, everytime HK opens his mouth or writes some more of his
            dribble, we will see him for who he really is! Will the real loser
            please stand up! : )

            Cheers All,
            Pretujari

            Here's something for eckists to think about! When HK is showing his
            claws as he has in calling some chelas losers, well, be warned.
            Because he just might be calling you losers tomorrow. If he is
            operating at all above a delusional state, then he knows that his
            intent is to scam, and in his scamming mind he would consider
            those who fall for it to be "losers!" So which is it, with HK, is
            he delusional or is he just another con like PT--or is he some of
            both? Regardless, he is still accountable for his actions and what
            he does and says to others!

            Mish
          • Ed Kusi
            Hello Pashtoonfallafa, Thanks for your mail. This is something I wrote a while ago on ESA. Though am not contributing by writing am reading most of what
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 29, 2009
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              Hello Pashtoonfallafa,
              Thanks for your mail. This is something I wrote a while ago on ESA. Though am not contributing by writing am reading most of what happens here on ESA.  I will not even give you the benefit of a reply. But am really worried if you an Eckist for you to come out with   language like that. What will your beloved master/Lem say? And did your mommy teach you to speak like that? I'm glad to have gottten a reaction from you though. The truth hurts. And what is the saying? "Every attack is a cry for help"
              All the best, and continue to keep your head in the sand. However when you are ready for a real debate on Eckankar and your beloved master, don't hesitate to write back.
              Pretujari

              --- On Sun, 9/27/09, pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...> wrote:

              From: pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...>
              Subject: Re: Loser Eck Master
              To: "pretujari" <pretujari@...>
              Date: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 6:29 PM

              hello prejutari,

              what are you teaching?
              what are you able to do?
              Can you at least wipe your ass after you shit, or does your mommy still have to clean your ass?
              You're even dumber than dirt.
              Please don't ridicule someone unless you know myou are better than them. I know I am better than you. Hell it doesn't take much to be better than you, dickhead.



              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari" <pretujari@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Prometheus and All,
              > Klemp's mind is in overdrive in seeking subtle ways of damage control
              > since Ford Johnson's book, and the fallout on his org. Now he is
              > shifting blame of the non-performance of his deceptive and confusing
              > methods onto the so-called 'headstrong losers' of his org. But isn't
              > it the mahanta's job to loosen up a so-called headstrong follower so
              > the latter 'adopts the practices of a winner...'? I remember in his
              > Mahanta transcripts a description by an Eckist of how the people he
              > knew had all become gracefull over the years due to the Mahanta's
              > influence. Perhaps, there are some people his all-encompassing powers
              > cannot reach?
              >
              > A person cannot operate outside their frame of reference, or state of
              > consciousness as we here are aware. When HK manipulated his way into
              > the leadership of Eckankar, he got there as a has-been farmer/Luteran
              > student minister, with some auditory and visual hallucinations which
              > he termed 'spiritual experiences.' Courtesy Twitchell's fabrications
              > and his own psychosis.
              >
              > When he got to the top, he realised he lacked the capacity and
              > ability to take the already confused teaching to a higher level so he
              > took the easy way out by lowering it into the fraternity of
              > religions. He 'cleverly' couched this deception into his so-called
              > mission as sanctioned by the phantom Vairagi Order: 'That he was to
              > bring the teachings to the valleys', meaning to the ordinary people.
              > He was greatly relieved when this was generally accepted, but those
              > who at that early point saw through his deception left accusing him
              > of not teaching things right.
              >
              > Klemp is a walking confusion and distortion of pseudo-spirituality,
              > and he will continue to confuse himself and his members. But we who
              > are here will see every shift of his mahanta mask and notice each
              > time his true agenda darts out.
              >
              > Cheers All,
              > Pretujari
              >



            • prometheus_973
              Hello Pretujari, This EKist, pashtoonfallafa, sent me a similar email, although, it was much more obscene. It s rather obvious that he can t express himself
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 29, 2009
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                Hello Pretujari,
                This EKist, pashtoonfallafa, sent
                me a similar email, although, it
                was much more obscene. It's rather
                obvious that he can't express himself
                very well and that his anger has gotten
                the best of him... if there is a best!

                It's too bad that his anger is being
                misdirected and that our insights
                have confused and angered him. Klemp
                is a trickster and this poor (but simple-
                minded) Soul seems to need a religious
                crutch as most people do. Eckankar
                is just one of many New Age religions
                that caters to this mindset. The Truth
                that we are sharing, here on ESA, is
                being acknowledged by Souls upon
                a subconsciousness level. Thus, Eckists
                are feeling frustrated with their longterm
                religious choices because their trust
                in Klemp, the LEM/Mahanta, is starting
                to wane. The Truth is out there, but
                Eckists are like horses with blinders on.
                Plus, you can lead them to water (truth)
                but you can't make them drink (think).

                Prometheus


                pretujari wrote:

                Hello Pashtoonfallafa,
                Thanks for your mail. This is
                something I wrote a while ago
                on ESA. Though am not contributing
                by writing am reading most of what
                happens here on ESA. I will not even
                give you the benefit of a reply.

                But am really worried if you an Eckist
                for you to come out with language l
                ike that. What will your beloved master/
                Lem say? And did your mommy teach
                you to speak like that? I'm glad to have
                gotten a reaction from you though.
                The truth hurts. And what is the saying?
                "Every attack is a cry for help"

                All the best, and continue to keep your
                head in the sand. However when you
                are ready for a real debate on Eckankar
                and your beloved master, don't hesitate
                to write back.
                Pretujari

                pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...> wrote:


                hello prejutari,

                what are you teaching?
                what are you able to do?
                Can you at least wipe your
                ass after you shit, or does
                your mommy still have to
                clean your ass? You're even
                dumber than dirt. Please don't
                ridicule someone unless you
                know myou are better than
                them. I know I am better than
                you. Hell it doesn't take much
                to be better than you, dickhead.



                pretujari wrote:
                >
                > Hi Prometheus and All,
                > Klemp's mind is in overdrive in seeking subtle ways of damage control
                > since Ford Johnson's book, and the fallout on his org. Now he is
                > shifting blame of the non-performance of his deceptive and confusing
                > methods onto the so-called 'headstrong losers' of his org. But isn't
                > it the mahanta's job to loosen up a so-called headstrong follower so
                > the latter 'adopts the practices of a winner...'? I remember in his
                > Mahanta transcripts a description by an Eckist of how the people he
                > knew had all become gracefull over the years due to the Mahanta's
                > influence. Perhaps, there are some people his all-encompassing powers
                > cannot reach?
                >
                > A person cannot operate outside their frame of reference, or state of
                > consciousness as we here are aware. When HK manipulated his way into
                > the leadership of Eckankar, he got there as a has-been farmer/Luteran
                > student minister, with some auditory and visual hallucinations which
                > he termed 'spiritual experiences.' Courtesy Twitchell's fabrications
                > and his own psychosis.
                >
                > When he got to the top, he realised he lacked the capacity and
                > ability to take the already confused teaching to a higher level so he
                > took the easy way out by lowering it into the fraternity of
                > religions. He 'cleverly' couched this deception into his so-called
                > mission as sanctioned by the phantom Vairagi Order: 'That he was to
                > bring the teachings to the valleys', meaning to the ordinary people.
                > He was greatly relieved when this was generally accepted, but those
                > who at that early point saw through his deception left accusing him
                > of not teaching things right.
                >
                > Klemp is a walking confusion and distortion of pseudo-spirituality,
                > and he will continue to confuse himself and his members. But we who
                > are here will see every shift of his mahanta mask and notice each
                > time his true agenda darts out.
                >
                > Cheers All,
                > Pretujari
                >
              • mishmisha9
                Hi, pretujari! Good to hear from you but sorry you received such a hateful email! It doesn t sound like this eckist knows anything about divine love!! But
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 29, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi, pretujari!

                  Good to hear from you but sorry you received such a
                  hateful email! It doesn't sound like this eckist knows
                  anything about divine love!! But indeed I am not surprised
                  because Klemp teaches hate and anger! This behavior is
                  a prime example of what is wrong with eckankar . . . really
                  pitiful!

                  Pashtoonfallafa, whoever you are, this should be a wake-up
                  call for you! You need help; you need enlightenment! Good
                  luck!

                  Mish

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ed Kusi <pretujari@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Pashtoonfallafa,
                  > Thanks for your mail. This is something I wrote a while ago on ESA. Though am not contributing by writing am reading most of what happens here on ESA.  I will not even give you the benefit of a reply. But am really worried if you an Eckist for you to come out with   language like that. What will your beloved master/Lem say? And did your mommy teach you to speak like that? I'm glad to have gottten a reaction from you though. The truth hurts. And what is the saying? "Every attack is a cry for help"
                  > All the best, and continue to keep your head in the sand. However when you are ready for a real debate on Eckankar and your beloved master, don't hesitate to write back.
                  > Pretujari
                  >
                  > --- On Sun, 9/27/09, pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...>
                  > Subject: Re: Loser Eck Master
                  > To: "pretujari" <pretujari@...>
                  > Date: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 6:29 PM
                  >
                  > hello prejutari,
                  >
                  > what are you teaching?
                  > what are you able to do?
                  > Can you at least wipe your ass after you shit, or does your mommy still have to clean your ass?
                  > You're even dumber than dirt.
                  > Please don't ridicule someone unless you know myou are better than them. I know I am better than you. Hell it doesn't take much to be better than you, dickhead.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari" <pretujari@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Prometheus and All,
                  > > Klemp's mind is in overdrive in seeking subtle ways of damage control
                  > > since Ford Johnson's book, and the fallout on his org. Now he is
                  > > shifting blame of the non-performance of his deceptive and confusing
                  > > methods onto the so-called 'headstrong losers' of his org. But isn't
                  > > it the mahanta's job to loosen up a so-called headstrong follower so
                  > > the latter 'adopts the practices of a winner...'? I remember in his
                  > > Mahanta transcripts a description by an Eckist of how the people he
                  > > knew had all become gracefull over the years due to the Mahanta's
                  > > influence. Perhaps, there are some people his all-encompassing powers
                  > > cannot reach?
                  > >
                  > > A person cannot operate outside their frame of reference, or state of
                  > > consciousness as we here are aware. When HK manipulated his way into
                  > > the leadership of Eckankar, he got there as a has-been farmer/Luteran
                  > > student minister, with some auditory and visual hallucinations which
                  > > he termed 'spiritual experiences.' Courtesy Twitchell's fabrications
                  > > and his own psychosis.
                  > >
                  > > When he got to the top, he realised he lacked the capacity and
                  > > ability to take the already confused teaching to a higher level so he
                  > > took the easy way out by lowering it into the fraternity of
                  > > religions. He 'cleverly' couched this deception into his so-called
                  > > mission as sanctioned by the phantom Vairagi Order: 'That he was to
                  > > bring the teachings to the valleys', meaning to the ordinary people.
                  > > He was greatly relieved when this was generally accepted, but those
                  > > who at that early point saw through his deception left accusing him
                  > > of not teaching things right.
                  > >
                  > > Klemp is a walking confusion and distortion of pseudo-spirituality,
                  > > and he will continue to confuse himself and his members. But we who
                  > > are here will see every shift of his mahanta mask and notice each
                  > > time his true agenda darts out.
                  > >
                  > > Cheers All,
                  > > Pretujari
                  > >
                  >
                • etznab@aol.com
                  I would also like to know if that person is an Eckist. As I received a personal e-mail as well, though I won t repeat it. It wasn t much nicer than the public
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 29, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I would also like to know if that person is an Eckist.
                    As I received a personal e-mail as well, though I won't
                    repeat it.

                    It wasn't much nicer than the public comment I got
                    from that same person.

                    Etznab

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Ed Kusi <pretujari@...>
                    To: pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...>
                    Cc: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 11:00 am
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Loser Eck Master

                     






                    Hello Pashtoonfallafa,
                    Thanks for your mail. This is something I wrote a while ago on ESA.
                    Though am not contributing by writing am reading most of what happens
                    here on ESA.  I will not even give you the benefit of a reply. But am
                    really worried if you an Eckist for you to come out with   language
                    like that. What will your beloved master/Lem say? And did your mommy
                    teach you to speak like that? I'm glad to have gottten a reaction from
                    you though. The truth hurts. And what is the saying? "Every attack is a
                    cry for help"
                    All the best, and continue to keep your head in the sand. However when
                    you are ready for a real debate on Eckankar and your beloved master,
                    don't hesitate to write back.
                    Pretujari

                    --- On Sun, 9/27/09, pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...>
                    wrote:

                    From: pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...>
                    Subject: Re: Loser Eck Master
                    To: "pretujari" <pretujari@...>
                    Da
                    te: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 6:29 PM

                    hello prejutari,

                    what are you teaching?
                    what are you able to do?
                    Can you at least wipe your ass after you shit, or does your mommy still
                    have to clean your ass?
                    You're even dumber than dirt.
                    Please don't ridicule someone unless you know myou are better than
                    them. I know I am better than you. Hell it doesn't take much to be
                    better than you, dickhead.



                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"
                    <pretujari@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Prometheus and All,
                    > Klemp's mind is in overdrive in seeking
                    subtle ways of damage control
                    > since Ford Johnson's book, and the fallout on his org. Now he is
                    > shifting blame of the non-performance of his deceptive and
                    confusing
                    > methods onto the so-called 'headstrong losers' of his org. But
                    isn't
                    > it the mahanta's job to loosen up a so-called headstrong follower
                    so
                    > the latter 'adopts the practices of a winner...'? I remember in his
                    > Mahanta transcripts a description by an Eckist of how the people he
                    > knew had all become gracefull over the years due to the Mahanta's
                    > influence. Perhaps, there are some people his all-encompassing
                    powers
                    > cannot reach?
                    >
                    > A person cannot operate outside their frame of reference, or state
                    of
                    > consciousness as we here are aware. When HK manipulated his way
                    into
                    > the leadership of Eckankar, he got there as a has-be
                    en
                    farmer/Luteran
                    > student minister, with some auditory and visual
                    hallucinations which
                    > he termed 'spiritual experiences.' Courtesy Twitchell's
                    fabrications
                    > and his own psychosis.
                    >
                    > When he got to the top, he realised he lacked the capacity and
                    > ability to take the already confused teaching to a higher level so
                    he
                    > took the easy way out by lowering it into the fraternity of
                    > religions. He 'cleverly' couched this deception into his so-called
                    > mission as sanctioned by the phantom Vairagi Order: 'That he was to
                    > bring the teachings to the valleys', meaning to the ordinary
                    people.
                    > He was greatly relieved when this was generally accepted, but those
                    > who at that early point saw through his deception left accusing him
                    > of not teaching things right.
                    >
                    > Klemp is a walking confusion and distortion of pseudo-spirituality,
                    > and he will continue to confuse himself and his members. But we who
                    > are here will see every
                    shift of his mahanta mask and notice each
                    > time his true agenda darts out.
                    >
                    > Cheers All,
                    > Pretujari
                    >
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    Thanks for the clarification, Prometheus. Took me a while to read the posts from today. Etznab ... From: etznab@aol.com To:
                    Message 9 of 13 , Sep 29, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thanks for the clarification, Prometheus.

                      Took me a while to read the posts from
                      today.

                      Etznab

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: etznab@...
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com;
                      pashtoonfallafa@...
                      Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 9:13 pm
                      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Loser Eck Master

                       








                      I would also like to know if that person is an Eckist.

                      As I received a personal e-mail as well, though I won't

                      repeat it.



                      It wasn't much nicer than the public comment I got

                      from that same person.



                      Etznab



                      -----Original Message-----

                      From: Ed Kusi <pretujari@...>

                      To: pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...>

                      Cc: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                      Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 11:00 am

                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Loser Eck Master



                       



                      Hello Pashtoonfallafa,

                      Thanks for your mail. This is something I wrote a while ago on ESA.

                      Though am not contributing by writing am reading most of what happens

                      here on ESA.  I will not even give you the benefit of a reply. But am

                      really worried if you an Eckist for you to come out with   language

                      like that. What will your beloved master/Lem say? And did your mommy

                      teach you to speak like that? I'm glad to have gottten a reaction from

                      you though. The truth hurts. And what is the20saying? "Every attack is a

                      cry for help"

                      All the best, and continue to keep your head in the sand. However when

                      you are ready for a real debate on Eckankar and your beloved master,

                      don't hesitate to write back.

                      Pretujari



                      --- On Sun, 9/27/09, pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...>

                      wrote:



                      From: pashtoonfallafa <pashtoonfallafa@...>

                      Subject: Re: Loser Eck Master

                      To: "pretujari" <pretujari@...>

                      Da

                      te: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 6:29 PM



                      hello prejutari,



                      what are you teaching?

                      what are you able to do?

                      Can you at least wipe your ass after you shit, or does your mommy still

                      have to clean your ass?

                      You're even dumber than dirt.

                      Please don't ridicule someone unless you know myou are better than

                      them. I know I am better than you. Hell it doesn't take much to be

                      better than you, dickhead.



                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "pretujari"

                      <pretujari@...> wrote:

                      >

                      > Hi Prometheus and All,

                      > Klemp's mind is in overdrive in seeking

                      subtle ways of damage control

                      > since Ford Johnson's book, and the fallout on his org. Now he is

                      > shifting blame of the non-performance of his deceptive and

                      confusing

                      > methods onto the so-called 'headstrong losers' of his org. But

                      isn't

                      > it the mahanta's job to loosen u
                      p a so-called headstrong follower

                      so

                      > the latter 'adopts the practices of a winner...'? I remember in his

                      > Mahanta transcripts a description by an Eckist of how the people he

                      > knew had all become gracefull over the years due to the Mahanta's

                      > influence. Perhaps, there are some people his all-encompassing

                      powers

                      > cannot reach?

                      >

                      > A person cannot operate outside their frame of reference, or state

                      of

                      > consciousness as we here are aware. When HK manipulated his way

                      into

                      > the leadership of Eckankar, he got there as a has-be

                      en

                      farmer/Luteran

                      > student minister, with some auditory and visual

                      hallucinations which

                      > he termed 'spiritual experiences.' Courtesy Twitchell's

                      fabrications

                      > and his own psychosis.

                      >

                      > When he got to the top, he realised he lacked the capacity and

                      > ability to take the already confused teaching to a higher level so

                      he

                      > took the easy way out by lowering it into the fraternity of

                      > religions. He 'cleverly' couched this deception into his so-called

                      > mission as sanctioned by the phantom Vairagi Order: 'That he was to

                      > bring the teachings to the valleys', meaning to the ordinary

                      people.

                      > He was greatly relieved when this was generally accepted, but those

                      > who at that early point saw through his deception left accu
                      sing him

                      > of not teaching things right.

                      >

                      > Klemp is a walking confusion and distortion of pseudo-spirituality,

                      > and he will continue to confuse himself and his members. But we who

                      > are here will see every

                      shift of his mahanta mask and notice each

                      > time his true agenda darts out.

                      >

                      > Cheers All,

                      > Pretujari

                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Etznab and All, As I said before this same Eckist (Susan Vanwijlen) posting on ESA is pashtoonfallafa. Susie mistakenly sent me another email with the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Sep 29, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello Etznab and All,
                        As I said before this same Eckist
                        (Susan Vanwijlen) posting on ESA
                        is pashtoonfallafa. "Susie" mistakenly
                        sent me another email with the
                        pashtoonfallafa Yahoo address. She
                        inadvertently used it when wanting
                        to explain herself in regard to the
                        the mini God/mini Master topic that
                        I had previously pointed out to her.

                        It is interesting that Susan claims to have
                        joined Klemp and Company in 1993.
                        Strange that she knew all about Twitchell's
                        plagiarisms but didn't know Darwin had
                        died in March 2008! I wonder if she noticed
                        the 10 year gap (1971-1981) in "EK" History
                        and that there was a 972nd LEM/Mahanta.

                        FYI: I was looking at an old Wisdom Note
                        of PT's (after Jan. 1969) and he claimed
                        that all LEMs become/are Mahantas!
                        Thus, by this standard Darwin was the
                        Mahanta. This is why Klemp, also, used
                        Rebazar to get what he wanted. HK used
                        PT's Rebazar character to kick Darwin
                        to the curb since he (HK) was just a 12th
                        Initiate and RT had the authority as
                        "Torchbearer" and as a former Mahanta.
                        Thus, we find the fictional Rebazar being
                        used as a stopgap for anything and
                        everything... a perfect Catch-22.

                        Prometheus


                        etznab wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        I would also like to know if
                        that person is an Eckist. As I
                        received a personal e-mail
                        as well, though I won't repeat
                        it.
                        >
                        It wasn't much nicer than the
                        public comment I got from that
                        same person.
                        >
                        > Etznab

                        pashtoonfallafa (susie) wrote:

                        hello prejutari,
                        >
                        what are you teaching?
                        what are you able to do?
                        Can you at least wipe your
                        ass after you shit, or does
                        your mommy still have to
                        clean your ass? You're even
                        dumber than dirt. Please don't
                        ridicule someone unless you
                        know myou are better than
                        them. I know I am better than
                        you. Hell it doesn't take much
                        to be better than you, dickhead.

                        susie wrote:
                        Oh Dear Mish. I did not know Darwin
                        died because I joined Eckankar in 1993.
                        Darwin had left Eckankar and his name
                        never came up in any discussion. Hence
                        I never even knew he existed. That is how
                        I did not know he died in 2008.

                        mish wrote:


                        Oh, dear, Susie! How can you not know that Darwin died?
                        Well, yes, Klemp didn't bother to make an announcement when
                        he passed even though many eckists on the internet on various
                        sites did say some kind words about Darwin at his passing. And
                        many were surprised and disappointed by Klemp's silence.
                        To me, Klemp's silence was still yet another example of Klemp's
                        inability to relate to others, to feel true compassion and love . . .
                        Pity really that so many are following such a cold hearted and
                        mean spirited delusional con man. It is a shame that chelas
                        give Klemp the power to disrupt their lives, isolate and insulate
                        them from the real world and even worse to impede and stop critical
                        thinking! Because to follow eckankar and Klemp, a chela
                        must stop thinking critically!!

                        I can well imagine that ESA is disturbing to you, but rather than
                        to debate or argue about eckankar, why not spend the time
                        reading the old posts here and also the information in the files.
                        If you have questions, I'm sure some here will try to help answer
                        them. But basically do some reading and start thinking about
                        some of these discussions and information . . . make your own
                        conclusions. . . and then you will be practicing free will by utilizing
                        your talents of critical thinking! Think for yourself . . . this is something
                        that eckankar does not teach or want! Good luck and best wishes!

                        Mish

                        susiemieuxmieux (Susan Vanwijlen) wrote:

                        I will send an e-mail to Darwin Gross and ask
                        him if Paul Twitchell ever plagiarized. Since Darwin
                        Gross took over Eckakar after Paul Twitchell translated
                        I think Darwin Gross would be the best person
                        to answer that question. I will keep you posted
                        on their response.
                      • etznab@aol.com
                        Good FYI point. Etznab ... From: prometheus_973 To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 10:14 pm
                        Message 11 of 13 , Sep 30, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Good FYI point.

                          Etznab

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 10:14 pm
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Loser Eck Master & followers

                           






                          Hello Etznab and All,

                          As I said before this same Eckist

                          (Susan Vanwijlen) posting on ESA

                          is pashtoonfallafa. "Susie" mistakenly

                          sent me another email with the

                          pashtoonfallafa Yahoo address. She

                          inadvertently used it when wanting

                          to explain herself in regard to the

                          the mini God/mini Master topic that

                          I had previously pointed out to her.



                          It is interesting that Susan claims to have

                          joined Klemp and Company in 1993.

                          Strange that she knew all about Twitchell's

                          plagiarisms but didn't know Darwin had

                          died in March 2008! I wonder if she noticed

                          the 10 year gap (1971-1981) in "EK" History

                          and that there was a 972nd LEM/Mahanta.



                          FYI: I was looking at an old Wisdom Note

                          of PT's (after Jan. 1969) and he claimed

                          that all LEMs become/are Mahantas!

                          Thus, by this standard Darwin was the

                          Mahanta. This is why Klemp, also, used

                          Rebazar to get what he wanted. HK used

                          PT's Rebazar character to kick Darwin

                          to the curb since he (HK) was just a 12th

                          Initiate and RT had the authority as

                          "Torchbearer" and as a former Mahanta.

                          Thus, w
                          e find the fictional Rebazar being

                          used as a stopgap for anything and

                          everything... a perfect Catch-22.



                          Prometheus



                          etznab wrote:

                          >

                          >

                          I would also like to know if

                          that person is an Eckist. As I

                          received a personal e-mail

                          as well, though I won't repeat

                          it.

                          >

                          It wasn't much nicer than the

                          public comment I got from that

                          same person.

                          >

                          > Etznab



                          pashtoonfallafa (susie) wrote:



                          hello prejutari,

                          >

                          what are you teaching?

                          what are you able to do?

                          Can you at least wipe your

                          ass after you shit, or does

                          your mommy still have to

                          clean your ass? You're even

                          dumber than dirt. Please don't

                          ridicule someone unless you

                          know myou are better than

                          them. I know I am better than

                          you. Hell it doesn't take much

                          to be better than you, dickhead.



                          susie wrote:

                          Oh Dear Mish. I did not know Darwin

                          died because I joined Eckankar in 1993.

                          Darwin had left Eckankar and his name

                          never came up in any discussion. Hence

                          I never even knew he existed. That is how

                          I did not know he died in 2008.



                          mish wrote:



                          Oh, dear, Susie! How can you not know that Darwin died?

                          Well, yes, Klemp didn't bother to make an announcement when

                          he passed even though many eckists on
                          the internet on various

                          sites did say some kind words about Darwin at his passing. And

                          many were surprised and disappointed by Klemp's silence.

                          To me, Klemp's silence was still yet another example of Klemp's

                          inability to relate to others, to feel true compassion and love . . .

                          Pity really that so many are following such a cold hearted and

                          mean spirited delusional con man. It is a shame that chelas

                          give Klemp the power to disrupt their lives, isolate and insulate

                          them from the real world and even worse to impede and stop critical

                          thinking! Because to follow eckankar and Klemp, a chela

                          must stop thinking critically!!



                          I can well imagine that ESA is disturbing to you, but rather than

                          to debate or argue about eckankar, why not spend the time

                          reading the old posts here and also the information in the files.

                          If you have questions, I'm sure some here will try to help answer

                          them. But basically do some reading and start thinking about

                          some of these discussions and information . . . make your own

                          conclusions. . . and then you will be practicing free will by utilizing

                          your talents of critical thinking! Think for yourself . . . this is
                          something

                          that eckankar does not teach or want! Good luck and best wishes!



                          Mish



                          susiemieuxmieux (Susan Vanwijlen) wrote:



                          I will send an e-mail to Darwin Gross and ask

                          him
                          if Paul Twitchell ever plagiarized. Since Darwin

                          Gross took over Eckakar after Paul Twitchell translated

                          I think Darwin Gross would be the best person

                          to answer that question. I will keep you posted

                          on their response.
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Etznab and All, Glad you liked the FYI point. I was watching a show on North Korea and the creation of their religion (Juche) in 1955 and it reminded
                          Message 12 of 13 , Sep 30, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello Etznab and All,
                            Glad you liked the FYI point. I was watching
                            a show on North Korea and the creation of
                            their "religion" (Juche) in 1955 and it reminded
                            me of Twitchell's creation (Eckankar) in 1965.

                            Juche is a combination of Confucianism with
                            political ideals and enforced laws, as well as,
                            a hierarchy. The "Great Leader" is seen as the
                            "Father" and all of the followers (everyone)
                            are considered as his family (the children).

                            Anyway, I can see the parallels of belief
                            with Eckankar and with Klemp's role as
                            the Great Leader (LEM/Mahanta). And,
                            since Eckankar, too, is a patriarchy with
                            only male leaders Klemp is the Father figure.
                            Also, there's the RESA (police) hierarchy,
                            and the warnings and repercussions to
                            those who go against the Mahanta and
                            don't Surrender their wills and Wills to him.

                            http://www.patheos.com/Library/Juche.html

                            http://www.stanford.edu/group/sjeaa/journal3/korea1.pdf

                            On another note: I saw Dr. Phil's Show on
                            The American Girl (Doll) Store and the philosophy
                            of finding one's "Inner Star." It seemed to
                            be much more advanced and practical than
                            anything Klemp could come up with. Actually,
                            I'm thinking that Klemp and Company might
                            have taken some of this info from the American
                            Girl Books and used it in answering questions
                            (and discourses) for/from the EK Youth. Klemp
                            has to steal the thoughts and ideas or "stories"
                            of others just as Twitchell did. Thus, HK is Not
                            Who or What he claims (an Intellectual or Prophet)
                            on the outer OR on the Inner!

                            Basically, Klemp's power is based upon what
                            EKists are willing to give him via their imaginations...
                            like with Kim Jong II. Now, EKists just need to
                            give themselves (via Soul = Soul) that same
                            power, imaginary height, and spiritual freedom.
                            But, Klemp doesn't like to share, thus, he slowed
                            down initiations more than 20 years ago and
                            created a glass ceiling of the 7th Initiation for
                            99.99% of his followers. In the mean time HK
                            keeps promoting himself (via the EK Adepts,
                            the ECK, and more B.S., etc.) to even Higher
                            initiations!

                            BTW- I wonder what Outer Initiation Level
                            Klemp now has as the LEM/Mahanta? What
                            Inner initiation Level does HK now have?

                            Prometheus


                            etznab wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Good FYI point.
                            >
                            > Etznab

                            > Hello Etznab and All,
                            >
                            > As I said before this same Eckist
                            >
                            > (Susan Vanwijlen) posting on ESA
                            >
                            > is pashtoonfallafa. "Susie" mistakenly
                            >
                            > sent me another email with the
                            >
                            > pashtoonfallafa Yahoo address. She
                            >
                            > inadvertently used it when wanting
                            >
                            > to explain herself in regard to the
                            >
                            > the mini God/mini Master topic that
                            >
                            > I had previously pointed out to her.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > It is interesting that Susan claims to have
                            >
                            > joined Klemp and Company in 1993.
                            >
                            > Strange that she knew all about Twitchell's
                            >
                            > plagiarisms but didn't know Darwin had
                            >
                            > died in March 2008! I wonder if she noticed
                            >
                            > the 10 year gap (1971-1981) in "EK" History
                            >
                            > and that there was a 972nd LEM/Mahanta.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > FYI: I was looking at an old Wisdom Note
                            >
                            > of PT's (after Jan. 1969) and he claimed
                            >
                            > that all LEMs become/are Mahantas!
                            >
                            > Thus, by this standard Darwin was the
                            >
                            > Mahanta. This is why Klemp, also, used
                            >
                            > Rebazar to get what he wanted. HK used
                            >
                            > PT's Rebazar character to kick Darwin
                            >
                            > to the curb since he (HK) was just a 12th
                            >
                            > Initiate and RT had the authority as
                            >
                            > "Torchbearer" and as a former Mahanta.
                            >
                            > Thus, we find the fictional Rebazar being
                            >
                            > used as a stopgap for anything and
                            >
                            > everything... a perfect Catch-22.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello Etznab and All, Interesting info. The verdict isn t out for me. I KNOW that these desperately needy Eckists NEVER saw Rebazar prior to joining
                            Message 13 of 13 , Oct 1, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hello Etznab and All,
                              Interesting info. The verdict isn't out for me.
                              I KNOW that these desperately needy Eckists
                              NEVER saw Rebazar "prior" to joining Eckankar.
                              They are mistaken, delusional, liars, and wanna-
                              bes. I know this because 500 year old EK Master
                              Rebazar isn't real! He's only as "real" as any
                              fictional character, anywhere, is "real." Jesus,
                              Buddha, Krishna, and thousands of others,
                              on the other hand, have an older history than
                              500 year old Rebazar and are/were actually
                              "real" people.

                              Paul probably dreamed up Rebazar's name
                              while in San Diego and did his standard letter
                              switch around. There is proof that Twitchell
                              switched out Kirpal Singh's name in The Flute
                              of God and The Tiger's Fang and substituted
                              the fictional Rebazar. Paul needed a Grand
                              EK Master to Initiate him. This is, also, why
                              PT had to kill off LEM Sudar Singh. There was
                              too close of a connection to the other Singh...
                              Kirpal. Really, why would 970th LEM Sudar
                              Singh hand Paul off to Rebazar? What is the
                              need for an LEM, then, if he needs to hand
                              people off to Rebazar? Shouldn't a LEM/Mahanta
                              have been able to teach and give a lower
                              initiate, PT, what he needed? Rebazar was
                              working under 970th LEM/Mahanta Sudar.

                              Thus, if 500 year old "Torchbearer" Rebazar
                              did actually exist in the minds of ECKists...
                              Why would they want/need Klemp when
                              Paul Twitchell didn't need his LEM/Mahanta?

                              I know that Klemp doesn't list (EK Lexicon)
                              some of these LEM's as Mahantas, but Twitch
                              states that all LEMs are Mahantas! Who should
                              ECKists believe? Klemp is aging rapidly and
                              has never written a Shariyat 3, or should they
                              believe Twitchell... a known liar.

                              Perhaps ECKists should look to Soul and the
                              ECK (Holy Spirit) versus another manmade religion.

                              "PAUL TWITCHELL PRESENTS: The Wisdom Notes
                              (Vol. 2 No. 8) August 1969

                              Therefore, each living ECK Master becomes the
                              Mahanta. Each of them attains this consciousness
                              and becomes the saviour of the age for his own
                              people. He is able to eliminate the suffering and
                              desires of the chelas by giving them the ability
                              to partake of the living Life Stream - the ECK.
                              This explains why Buddhism ceased to be a
                              dynamic force soon after the death of the
                              illustrious Buddha. The same fate has overtaken
                              all other religions and without exception it
                              must be this way. The usual life of any orthodox
                              religion is approximately two thousand years
                              on this planet."

                              [Note: Paul was still tweaking Eckankar and
                              was not capitalizing "living" in "Living" ECK
                              Master at this time. This is not an editing or
                              proof reading mistake. This is how "living
                              Master" is used in The Path of the Masters.]

                              I guess that one could argue that Sudar knew
                              he would be dying before PT could be trained
                              to take his place and that's why he was handed
                              off to Rebazar. Thus, once again, the fictional
                              Rebazar is being used as a stop-gap! Therefore,
                              anyone can use this fictional Rebazar character
                              anyway they can imagine!

                              However, Klemp has established hierarchical
                              safeguards as to what "dreams" are permitted
                              by EKists least his "authority" be challenged.
                              This is why all dreams and stories, involving
                              EK Masters, have to have written approval
                              (for validity, etc.) before they can be shared.

                              However, these dream stories cannot cross
                              the line. A perfect example of this is in the
                              recent article "May Thy Will Be Mine" in the
                              09/2009 Mystic World where, in a dream,
                              "Jane was aware of the Rod of ECK Power
                              in the Mahanta's hands..." There is No Way
                              that Jane would have been permitted to
                              "hold" the Rod, although, this would be
                              less threatening (since Jane was female)
                              than if say, "James," was to have a dream
                              holding the Rod of ECK Power! Thus, EKists
                              need to be very careful of what they dream
                              and, especially, what they share or write to
                              the ESC in an IRO or what they submit as an
                              EK Story.

                              Prometheus



                              etznab wrote:

                              FYI: I was looking at an old Wisdom Note
                              of PT's (after Jan. 1969) and he claimed
                              that all LEMs become/are Mahantas!
                              Thus, by this standard Darwin was the
                              Mahanta. This is why Klemp, also, used
                              Rebazar to get what he wanted. HK used
                              PT's Rebazar character to kick Darwin
                              to the curb since he (HK) was just a 12th
                              Initiate and RT had the authority as
                              "Torchbearer" and as a former Mahanta.
                              Thus, we find the fictional Rebazar being
                              used as a stopgap for anything and
                              everything... a perfect Catch-22.

                              Prometheus

                              *****************************************************

                              Darwin tried to use Rebazar Tarzs (and other
                              Eck Masters) to remove Harold Klemp first!

                              According to testimony taken on May 31st, 1984,
                              the former Living ECK Master, Darwin Gross, report-
                              edly claimed that in January, 1983, his successor,
                              Harold Klemp, was asked to step aside. Reportedly,
                              it was Rebazar Tarz and Yaubl Sacabi who asked
                              Harold Klemp to step aside.

                              See Confessions of a God Seeker, A Journey to
                              Higher Consciousness, p. 239

                              Here is a quote from Harold's letter to Darwin Gross.
                              according to Ford's book (also on p. 239):

                              Dear Darwin:

                              The Order of the Vairagi ECK Masters no longer
                              recognizes you as an ECK Master. As the agent of
                              the ECK, I have removed all of your initiations in ECK
                              as well as terminated your membership in Eckankar.
                              You are not capable or authorized to act or speak for
                              or about the Vairagi ECK Masters, Eckankar or the
                              ECK Teachings, nor are you to hold yourself out as
                              an ECK Master or ECK member."

                              [See: Confessions of a God Seeker, A Journey to
                              Higher Consciousness, p. 239]

                              *****************************************************

                              I've sought to clarify it myself who, or what exactly
                              is Rebazar Tarzs. I've researched and asked several
                              questions (on A.R.E. especially). The verdict appears
                              to be the Eck Masters are real - according to stories
                              from people claiming to have met them before they
                              ever heard of Eckankar, or saw any pictures of the
                              Eck Masters. That is what I've heard people say. It's
                              not surprising because Harold says the same basic
                              thing:

                              Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists.
                              They ask if Paul just borrowed a name from the Far
                              East and made him up. Yet people report having met
                              the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of Eck-
                              ankar. The ECK Masters are real.

                              [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual
                              Lessons) by Harold Klemp - see link]

                              http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training

                              So, the verdict (according to some people) says
                              the Eck Masters are real because people say they
                              are real.

                              I'm still not convinced what to make of all this. It
                              could be people's imaginations. I don't know what
                              the truth is exactly.

                              Etznab
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