6607Re: Growing list
- Jan 18, 2013Here is a copy of Doug Marman's January 3rd, 2004 T.S. post. that I referenced (quoted from) earlier.
Response to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman
USUALLY SKEPTIKAL WROTE:
> Dear Doug,I worked at the ECK Office first when it was located in Las Vegas. I started there about one year after Darwin became the Master. He was one of the most humble people back then.
> I found your response and Ford's interesting. However, could you answer me
> about your connections to Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp and
> Eckankar? Are you a member of Eckankar now or have you ever been?
> Could you also fill me in on how Lane misinterpretated Harold's Astral
> Library story? I don't recall Twitchell ever mentioning an Astral Library.
> Thank You,
> Usually Skeptical
I worked on a number of projects with him and got to know him personally.
I talk about this in my Internet book. One of the projects I took on was to organize Paul's orginal taped talks, which had been abandoned in a loft there. It was a mess. I listened to everyone of Paul's talks at least a dozen times, as I tried to sort out when and where it took place, and to splice them back together into their original form.
I met Harold there in 1973. He left for a year before coming back to work at the ECK Office. He and I became close friends. Neither of us were much interested in the office politics, but loved talking about the spiritual teachings.
I just happened to be there at the office when David Lane was first writing his book, so I could comment firsthand on many things. I also kept a complete set of the ECK publications from the start of ECKANKAR, which I got when I was there, so I could get actual quotes and the facts of the early days.
I have been a member since then, however, I currently hold no position in the organization and wrote my book completely on my own and not trying to represent anyone else but myself and my own understanding.
Years later, when Harold became the Master, he gave me a chance to go through Paul's library and files, after they have been retrieved from Darwin's home. I learned a lot more about Paul there.
Since I joined ECKANKAR, I've had a recurring dream about looking for old writings of Paul, back before ECKANKAR. I talk about the search this led me on in the last chapter of my book.
As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream as well.
If you read Harold's actual words, you will see that David Lane is wrong. Harold does not anywhere in his talk say that Paul got his information from the Astral Library, therefore it was not plagiarism. Harold never says that. What Harold does say is that the Astral Library is a source of great wisdom that some of the greatest writers have access to it. It is an inner source of truth about the path. Also, from the information there, Harold could see the sources of all of Paul's books, since it was all in the records there.
The point of this is that you can't fool the records in the Astral Library. It was clear there that Paul had borrowed from other writers. That's the point of Harold's story. That's why he was talking about Paul as a Compiler at the beginning of the talk, and that we need to take him down off the pedestal as a god and see that he was a man. Harold called this the death of an ideal. Harold talks about the stages that people go through in accepting a death in the family - rejecting the idea, then anger, then confusion and doubt, then disillusionment, then acceptance - or something like that. All this was because plagiarism is not the way we want to see Paul. That was all in the same talk, concluding with Harold talking about his dream in the Astral Library where he finally saw Paul.
Here's how Harold ends his talk:
"I'm doing all this research in a soundproof booth so it doesn't disturb the other people who are doing research. As I look over at a table, I see Paul--busy as usual, researching and writing. He looks at me and says, kind of gruffly, "What's that?"
" 'Source manuscripts, ' I say.
" 'For what? ' he asks.
" 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, ' I reply.
" 'Oh, ' he says. 'Well, we'll have to do something about that someday. '
"Then he picks up his notebook and leaves, heading out into the stacks.
"Yeah, I thought to myself, and I know who is going to have to do something about that someday! "
Here is what David Lane said in his book:
Simply put, Klemp has invented a story to cover-up Twitchell's plagiarism so that Eckankar can still get away with publishing "stolen" materials.
In fact, the point Harold was making was the exact opposite. Harold was breaking the news to ECKists that Paul borrowed and copied. That was the very thing he was studying in his dream.
David Lane challenged me on my interpretation, and we had some long dialogues about it. The whole of Harold's talk makes sense if you see it as I'm explaining. It doesn't make sense if Harold is trying to explain that it wasn't plagiarism after all because Paul got it all from the Astral. Then why would Harold need to clean up a mess?
But the real problem here is simply that Harold never said what David accused him of saying. Harold never even suggests it. It was simply a mistaken interpretation.
David wasn't the only one to make this mistake. I can see why some might draw the wrong conclusion, but since I had firsthand experience with it, I know that the last thing Harold was trying to do was cover something up. Quite the opposite.
I hope this helps.
--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" wrote:
> Sorry those links didn't work. One link was to an a.r.e. archive link to all the examples of plagiarisms that I've seen to date - which can be found by searching the a.r.e. archive for: Ref# 41391720. Example:
> The second link (that didn't work) was to the a.r.e. thread from where the quotes I posted can be found. Example (and about the growing list):
> "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
> researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
> turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to
> say that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I
> [Doug Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the
> records. Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past,
> which Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough
> "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
> about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
> further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and
> worked for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early
> days. So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [...] A few
> months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
> began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
> share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
> anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
> unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
> see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [... .]"
> [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]
> "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it
> has become misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my
> book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering
> another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the
> correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with
> me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had
> that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was
> quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
> swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
> with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
> clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral
> Library dream as well. [... .]"
> [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually
> Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman]
> Those were the two quotes, I believe, that I referred to. The a.r.e. link page is here:
> As for the T.S. link, I don't think they work any longer. Personally, I suspect somebody sabotaged the T.S. site. There is a redirect link which prevents most of the original pages from coming up.
> I believe maybe I copied ALL of the old T.S. B.B. posts, and from going to wayback machine, from old archive pages. So if anybody in the future wants copies of T.S. B.B. posts just let me know.
> Btw, I just noticed that I gave the wrong date for that D.M. post. It was not from January 2003, but January 3rd, 2004. I have a copy if anybody wants to see it.
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
> > Hello Etznab,
> > What's this pertain to?
> > I wasn't able to pull these
> > sites up.
> > What's Marman saying
> > about "the Astral Library
> > dream"(of PT's?) being
> > misunderstood... in what
> > way?
> > What is the interpretation?
> > It's more than a metaphor
> > correct?
> > Didn't Klemp say that he,
> > too, visited the Astral Library
> > and saw Ancient manuscripts
> > with Twitchell's handwritten
> > notes scribbled in the margins.
> > It seems that only EKists have
> > access to this specific Astral
> > Plane Library and that it's a
> > really old style (ancient/wisdom
> > filled) library that, mostly, EKists
> > are taught to dream of and
> > conjure.
> > BTW-Anyone who plagiarizes,
> > as Twitchell did, is also a liar.
> > So why believe anything Twitchell
> > said?
> > This is what bothered Klemp.
> > Klemp realized that Twitchell
> > was worse than Darwin! The
> > Astral Library story/dream was
> > B.S. Klemp has made a vocation
> > out of Eckankar just as Twitchell
> > and Gross did. He rationalizes
> > it all away by thinking that he
> > is giving a select group of New
> > Agers something to believe in.
> > HK's giving them much of what
> > the other religions give: Faith;
> > Belief; Promises; Pride; Hope.
> > While taking their money and
> > being seen as Pope like by
> > being infallible and beyond
> > reproach.
> > Prometheus
> > "etznab18" wrote:
> > A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13
> > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
> > misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well.
> > I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation,
> > but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
> > The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
> > whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
> > gave those talks or started writing about it.
> > He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be
> > hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not
> > happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
> > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream
> > as well. [... .]"
> > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually Skeptical:
> > More Questions to Doug Marman]
> > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
> > My contributions to the "growing list".
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
> > r/Ref%23$2041391720
> > ***
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
> > lGt1TvUM3Q
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