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6521Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

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  • Janice Pfeiffer
    Dec 17, 2012
      The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.
      As a young person, I blamed my parents for all I didn't get growing up.  I think most of us do get critical of the job our parents did at some point.  I must say my upbringing wasn't very good over all. 
      Well, the way I worked it out for myself was I decided they gave me the best they knew how to give at the time.  There was love there and they did give me as much as they were capable of.  They gave what they could.  They were not capable of more.
      I like most people have done things that I now consider mistakes, even some really bad mistakes.  But just like my parents I acted under the best info I had at the time. 
      It is not an excuse and it is not a victim type attitude.  If you don't know better, you can't do better.
      If I knew when I was born, all I know now, I could have avoided most of the mistakes I ever made.
      We all know that's not possible.  
      I know some of us come in as more advanced souls but we don't get here and immediately know what we are; not with out some experience in life.  It's the bumps and scrapes that helps us define who we are. 
      You did no permanent damage to anyone in eckankar because nothing we experience has a forever affect.  If they held on to resentment about an initiation, that is theirs to work out.
      You weren't even told the real lies that the org perpetrates to keep people in.
      You were forced to play a guessing game about the whole thing with the half truths you got.
      Besides you were indoctrinated into the world of how to be a good eckist, good HI and all  positions you may have held.
      You believed in what you were doing because you believed in the the teachings and the org.
      How can you be wrong if you don't know you are wrong?
      You got to a point where you decided you were wrong.
      You changed course. 
      A not so strong person might have stayed in the circus knowing they were wrong but wouldn't change it.
      In my eyes that makes you blameless for anything that happened in the org.
      I do have a question.  You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations.  What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development?  I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons.  It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org.  Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone.  Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar?  Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money.  Is that it?
      I read every eckankar book available at the time I was in.  I even had access to some that were out of print which were loaned to me by some one who was in during Paul's time.  I got to read Letters to Gail and Paul's books of fiction which I have forgotten the names of now.  If eckankar is now depending on that dry, uninspiring crap hk writes, eckankar is doomed.  There's no way, new people will get hooked on that stuff. 
      Thank you Prometheus

      --- On Sun, 12/16/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, December 16, 2012, 6:44 PM

      Hello Janice, Non and All,
      Thank you for the kind
      words and understanding.
      It got me to thinking about
      the basis for the whole EK
      initiation eligibility screening.

      I think that we've all heard
      about the importance of
      keeping the EK Teachings
      "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
      must be current on procedures,
      and guidelines which will,
      also, ensure that they are
      able to regurgitate the
      approved propaganda.
      The initiation eligibility
      screenings are to sort out
      those who still need more
      training or are ready to
      advance to the next stage
      and take on more responsibilities
      with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
      Sales Teams.

      Plus, the initiation screenings
      ensure that Klemp will have
      people who are willing to
      participate in the promotion
      of the organization. It has
      nothing to do with one's
      spiritual growth. But, sincerity
      and believability goes a
      long way in convincing others.
      However, one can't be too
      deluded. One needs to be
      believable and this is why
      the faithful are the ones most
      shocked when they can finally
      open their minds to hear
      the truth.

      Maybe most of the heavy
      handed methods, lack of
      empathy and compassion,
      are rationalizations where
      the RESAs are thinking
      they are toughening up
      and strengthening Soul
      while, also, protecting
      the Mahanta, supporting
      his "Mission," and keeping
      the EK Teachings "pure"
      and unchangeable over

      When taking a second look;
      HK has his RESAs confused.
      How does Klemp continue
      to promote "change" and
      is always updating things
      while keeping the "original"
      EK Teachings by Twitchell
      "pure?" The truth is that,
      as LEM, Klemp has the
      authority to Change and
      revisit all EK Dogma and
      "update" and revise it
      with his own spin.

      Therefore, only the current
      EK teachings (Guidelines
      included) are "pure" according
      to what Klemp is suggesting.
      Except, the reason why HK
      has chosen not to reprint
      most of Twitchell's books
      is because they are highly
      plagiarized versus being
      "current" with today's higher

      The foundation of Eckankar
      is built upon a con and a
      hoax and is not even copied
      from the highest "truths"
      of other religions since these
      religions are flawed as well.
      Twitchell's books are more
      evidence to prove the case
      and to show that he was
      simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
      and a narcissistic wannabe.



      Janice wrote:
      I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things. I should have told you that in response when you told me what you knew about initiations. I did admire you for it also. I apologize for not telling you then.

      At the same time, while in eckankar, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time. There's no need to blame youself for the effect anything you did at the time had on others.

      Eckankar might deceive people and it might use people for it's own gain but I don't recall anyone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I had to join. I did go in of my own free will like everybody else. I opened myself up to it, like everybody else. So in a sense, we are all responsible for what we got while in even if we weren't given all the facts. We chose to join eckankar.

      Yes, the lies are inexcusable and after reading the postings by you and others who knew a lot more than me, I believe eckankar is basically a heartless org and the only value it ever had are those good hearts of all those who are deceived from within it. You were one of those.

      Besides, how do you know that a delay in initations didn't serve a positve purpose to those people? Regardless of what eckankar may claim, none of us can see what is going on in the spiritual growth of others.

      I now do not miss all those fake initiations I didn't get. Do you think those who passed on, do? It doesn't seem likely they would need such a thing now.

      By the powers of simply me, I declare you not guilty of anything other than having a kind heart.

      Be at peace


      Non ekchains:

      Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

      Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.


      Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

      In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

      I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.


      Non ;)

      prometheus wrote:

      Hello Janice,
      Most H.I.s have no idea
      how the EK Initiation
      process works. It's sad
      because there are some
      really nice and gentile
      chelas who have been
      passed over on the 5th.
      Some died as 4ths when
      they should have had
      some happiness, peace
      of mind, and contentment
      by receiving that 5th.
      I've know several eckists
      where this has happened.
      It was no big deal to give
      them their 5th initiation,
      but some RESAs are mean-
      spirited, lack empathy,
      and are petty. They've
      gotten caught up in HK's
      game. All Eckists should
      get the 5th after no more
      than 20 years, especially,
      when they participate
      and are kept current on
      their membership. However,
      that's not the way the
      power trip is played by
      some RESAs.

      I hate to admit this but
      I helped the RESA when
      asked about people. I
      was quizzed about those
      up for, usually, the 5th
      and 6th initiation. I was
      asked about what the EKist
      said, how they acted and
      conducted themselves
      and any unusual things
      that I noticed about
      their behavior or performance.
      And then I was asked for
      my opinion. Unfortunately
      my replies, I know, had
      some initiations delayed
      for these people and I
      regret that I got caught
      up in this petty mind game.
      Some of these people are
      still H.I.s and have no idea
      why they had to wait so
      long for their 5th or 6th.
      Many probably think that
      the Mahanta was testing
      them! LOL! On the other
      hand maybe some of them,
      by now, have been asked
      to evaluate people too.
      I wonder if they put two
      and two together and
      figured it out.

      Why, though, should
      Klemp have a system
      for initiations that judges
      and punishes Eckists
      based upon our evaluations?
      Where's that Inner Knowingness
      of the Mahanta?

      Besides, a 5th is no big
      deal, and it's not like one
      becomes a cleric automatically
      with a 5th. Really, being
      an 5th is no more being
      an official representative
      of Eckankar than is a 4th.

      Yes, most Eckists have
      no idea that a computer
      generated eligibility list
      is sent to the RESA by the
      ESC and that phone calls
      are made asking questions
      where subjective answers
      are given and that the RESA
      uses these to either approve
      and give a recommendation
      for initiation or doesn't.
      However, I will say that
      any "No" has to have an
      valid reason. The ESC
      usually follows the RESAs'

      BTW- Janice, I think that
      your RESA approved of
      your initiation because
      he felt guilty for having
      yelled at you, plus, you
      could have reported him
      to the ESC. Maybe the
      initiation approval was
      meant to appease you?


      Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
      Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

      Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
      teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area

      That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
      was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
      on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
      crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
      that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
      was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
      totally useless.

      In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
      about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

      I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
      of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
      didn't use his name at all.

      The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
      seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
      had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
      then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
      asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
      times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
      along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
      his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
      point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
      time and hung up.

      It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
      up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
      called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
      appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
      paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
      performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
      that was part of it.

      When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
      thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
      there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
      was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
      the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
      insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
      was enough.

      Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
      true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
      I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

      I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
      opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
      like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

      prometheus wrote:

      Hello Janice,
      Thanks for the interesting
      reply and the sharing of
      insights and experiences.
      I really really enjoyed it

      The reason why someone
      knew you received your
      pink slip is because the
      RESA gets an initiation
      eligibility list where he/
      she will mark yea/nay
      for an initiation. When
      the yea is checked the
      ESC (membership services)
      will more than likely issue
      the pink slip for the initiation.
      Or, the file has been red
      flagged for some reason.
      Klemp, I'm told, will put
      a temporary hold on higher
      initiations. Maybe it's due
      to pending requirements
      for training/retraining.
      The ESC will notify the
      RESA when the pink slip
      is sent.

      Most Eckists don't know
      how the initiation process

      The RESA has a membership
      list generated by the ESC
      for all those EKists in their
      region and it will show
      initiation level, one's status
      and date of membership
      among other info. If a
      new person sends in a
      membership form to the
      ESC from anywhere in
      the RESA's region the RESA
      will be notified of who
      they are and their mailing

      I was glad Ford Johnson
      wrote his book and that
      I was told about it by an
      Eckist who is still an H.I.
      The Irony is that he was
      doing Public Information
      and was quite the gossip.

      I always was the skeptic
      and had trouble with a lot
      of what I saw and experienced
      around H.I.s.

      When I was a lower initiate
      I knew that many H.I.s weren't
      spiritual nor anywhere close
      to being enlightened. There
      were too many contradictions,
      restrictions, and hypocrisy.
      Once you're an EK member
      the next step is to get you
      to become a volunteer on
      HK's sales team.

      I always wondered how
      was there an "inner" connection
      to the Mahanta if H.I.s
      were still smoking and
      drinking alcohol, but
      getting promoted with
      more initiations? I knew
      of two 5ths who smoked
      and drank and got pink
      slips for the 6th. It's clear
      that Klemp knows nothing
      unless informed via phone
      or snailmail... email now!

      Yes, Janice, we were the
      ones awakened to the Truth
      while all of those "Higher"
      (pretend) Initiates are still
      sleeping. Many H.I.s have
      become very skilled at
      regurgitating the PR and
      at facilitating and public
      speaking. But, H.I.s have
      no idea of what it's like
      to be Free thinkers and
      free of religion and of the
      EK Hierarchy. They think
      that their "spiritual experiences"
      are unique when these
      are common and similar
      experiences that all religious
      seekers have had... even

      Yes, we needed Eckankar
      in order to fill a void and
      to learn some important
      lessons about ourselves
      and about religion in general.

      IMO, Those who left
      Eckankar but still have
      a need for religion, haven't
      really learned that they
      will never find answers
      via a group consciousness
      or via a guru/master.
      True, it is nice to know
      people of like mind and
      to share things, but this
      can be a bad thing as well
      if we become too attached
      or lazy and want to play
      follow the leader again.

      It all comes down to one's
      private and personal experiences
      and inner revelations with
      oneSelf and with whatever
      catalyst of "divine" creation.


      Janice wrote:
      I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
      it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
      people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
      The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
      new people.

      Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
      little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
      to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
      you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
      you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
      to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about

      I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
      contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
      questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
      he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
      not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

      Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
      me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
      about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper

      How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
      supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
      about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
      getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
      seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
      games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
      opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
      Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
      tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
      become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

      That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
      for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
      eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
      instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
      the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
      Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
      lucky that I got out when I did.

      The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
      lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
      they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
      in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
      good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
      that point the lies.

      Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
      like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
      not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
      define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
      individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
      responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
      after seeing where blind obedience leads.

      I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
      individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
      the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
      in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see

      I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
      maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
      spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
      all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
      the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
      own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
      quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

      I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
      mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
      there and I did walk away of my own free will.

      Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
      they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
      spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
      slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
      getting out could lead to better things.

      Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
      reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
      your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
      to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
      serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
      the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you

      Blessings to all of you.

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