6206Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
- May 9, 2012
Thank you etznab for clarifying.
--- On Sun, 5/6/12, etznab18 <etznab@...> wrote:
From: etznab18 <etznab@...>
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
Date: Sunday, May 6, 2012, 2:50 AM"Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"
Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for complete context.)
To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a long post though.
Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:
[...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The Master.
The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.
So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.
It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush." [... .]
"The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]
Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]
Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his part ???
What are your on that stuff ?
I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
It's all a matter of perspective.
I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.
(4) February 2004:
"[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"
[...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?
Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have taken The Far Country as something different.
So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust issue for them.
I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?
--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
> You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.Â It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.Â Thank you for being such a wise soul.
> Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?Â To whom did he tell this and why?Â The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.Â The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.Â It appears like a house of cards.Â Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?Â I haveÂ read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.Â Any ideas?
> From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
> Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
> To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
> Hello Janice and All,
> Interesting. I think I'll
> share some comments
> to your insights below.
> Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> Now that is very interesting.
> I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
> Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
> Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
> I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
> ME (Prometheus): I know that
> many of us have had similar
> experiences of being attacked
> by negative entities and having
> to defend ourselves. In this case
> your RESA was, also, one of these
> negative beings. Too bad you
> couldn't protect yourself from
> them, but it's deceptive when
> one has placed trust in a RESA
> by assuming they are always
> positive and always on your side.
> They are as closed minded and
> defensive as is any religionist
> when protecting their dogma
> from too much scrutiny.
> "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
> ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
> Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
> ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
> until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
> the catch is that there's a time limit for
> being skeptical. True, when one seeks
> the "Truth" via introspection and uses
> meditation/contemplation one will change
> and see with new eyes, but that's not due
> to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
> tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
> dream and imagine all sorts of things
> when attention is placed upon these
> areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
> and every other conman knew and uses
> and what Klemp continues to use as
> a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
> the magician uses while the viewer's
> attention is distracted elsewhere.
> "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
> ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
> are real. It could very well be that demons
> are metaphors for those things that bother
> and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
> and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
> all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
> This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
> have problems since they tend to pick and
> choose what is easy for them to believe
> since they tend to be more simple-minded
> and tend to see most everything in literal,
> narrow, terms.
> "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
> see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
> ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
> He had the by-laws changed
> after he took over from D.G.
> and neither the President nor
> the EK Board has any voting
> authority. Only Klemp can hire
> and fire. The local Satsang
> Societies and local Boards have
> been set up the same (As Above).
> Thus, the RESAs can hire and
> fire the local Presidents and
> Board members and the votes
> of Board members carry no
> authority! The RESA has the
> sole authority, unless, a higher
> authority at the ESC steps in.
> However, when this is done
> it is always with the approval
> of Klemp and under his direction.
> "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
> ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
> ECK Master" was the best book written
> depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
> There were three interviews done around
> June 1971 while PT was the full blown
> self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
> is that after all of these years he's still
> lying about his past. Klemp has stated
> on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
> and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
> Who's Who and had never traveled all that
> far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
> 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
> 16 years old when he, first, went from
> Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
> Sudar Singh. There are more examples
> that are even more outlandish. Paul's
> comments about how he confused things
> and screwed up paperwork so that he
> could take it easy during the start of
> WWII showed a level of subversion and
> sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
> "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
> ME: I think that we all have to get
> over the guilt and shame of being
> tricked. Look at all of those who
> belong to a religion and donate
> time and money in order to get
> their "feel good" fix. Religions
> are types of opiates... Eckankar
> too! People need to believe in
> something that can give them
> hope and to help them to maintain
> a positive outlook. And, conmen
> know what people want and need.
> Attitude is, also, important but
> there's a fine line between being
> positive and being delusional.
> Sometimes it's difficult to know
> where to draw the line and some
> of us have more difficulty with
> seeing the good versus seeing
> the bad. However, I don't think
> that seeing the glass half-empty
> is always wrong, but it does present
> more of a challenge to overcome.
> "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
> ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
> ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
> ever needed to jump off a bridge
> and do a strip tease at an airport
> and choose jail or a mental institution
> in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
> was a liar up to the moment of his
> untimely death and, thus, was not
> a "spiritual being." It was all about
> him. Besides, many people have
> done stupid things when confused
> with life and have sought "spiritual
> solutions." If one chose to, one could
> claim that their mental missteps
> and episodes were "spiritual
> experiences" as Klemp has done.
> Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
> hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
> excuse his mental confusion.
> After all, HK's the leader of a
> church and has to be above
> and beyond reproach. It's a
> pretend game where he has
> to, partially, buy into the hype
> in order to seem authentic.
> "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
> ME: I, too, know and remember some
> H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
> as long as they don't know who I am.
> That could/would change I'm sure.
> They would feel betrayed and insulted
> and I could understand that, however,
> that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
> To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
> not due to Eckankar or because of
> inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
> That crap just gets in the way and
> causes more codependency. Any
> growth or realization leading to
> an expanded awareness is learned
> and earned by the individual. It's
> their own personal and private
> relationship to the Holy Spirit or
> whatever one wants to call this
> divine essence, or not, that leads
> to a divine knowingness and to
> "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
> ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
> while knowing about the deceptions
> and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
> if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
> why throw the baby out with the
> (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
> nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
> of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
> works why complain? H.I.s have
> put blinders on in order to stay
> the course and maintain their
> prestigious positions which took
> them decades of time and money
> to obtain. Many have rejected, in
> part, HK's RESA structure and the
> ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
> that did the same... picked and
> chose what they wanted to follow
> and believe. However, that's not
> the way Eckankar is supposed to
> work. One is supposed to take
> the bait and swallow it hook, line,
> and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
> only the best from all of the other
> religions and experts, etc. in order
> to create (or bring forth) the EK
> dogma to the modern Western
> world. Thus, how can one pick
> and chose when it's all, supposedly,
> relevant? If a person is not consciously
> following the guidance and the will
> of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
> they are heretics!
> "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
> ME: True! It's nice to belong.
> Humans are social animals
> and most like to follow in
> one way or another because
> it's easier to follow than to
> lead. Being a follower requires
> less thought and energy. It's
> less demanding, less consuming,
> and is less stressful. It is true
> that the Higher one is with
> initiations, years, and titles
> the more lost that individual
> is. They've bought into it
> to the extreme. Look at Marge
> Klemp! However, the ones
> to really feel sorry for are those
> ESC staffers who know it's all
> a sham and Klemp is a poser,
> but they have to put on an act
> in order to keep their jobs,
> health care, retirement, etc.
> "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
> ME: Doug Marman is an old
> friend of Klemp's who's an
> apologist for Eckankar. I think
> he's a 7th. He's got some books
> out there that have overlooked
> many facts and are based upon
> lies and hearsay. What's funny,
> however, is that Doug's stated
> that Twitchell lied about traveling
> to Paris, France to visit his sister
> when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
> And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
> was probably made up by Twitchell.
> After all, PT needed to have
> someone other than Kirpal Singh,
> his real master, initiate him.
> Thus, PT created RT in order to
> initiate himself. Plus, Marman
> has admitted that Twitchell
> created the Mahanta title in
> January 1969. Yet, Marman
> omits all of this information
> in his books!
> "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
> Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
> May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
> ME: Thanks for sharing this.
> It was interesting for me to
> prometheus wrote:
> This is an entertaining approach.
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