6198Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited Once More)
- May 8, 2012Hello Etznab and All,
Yes, as you've pointed
out (below) both Marman
and Klemp have similar
versions about the "facts"
fictional account of meeting
Rebazar Tarzs. Too bad
they overlooked Twitchell's
version, and the timeline
conflict, from his June,
1971 interviews which
are mentioned in "Difficulties
Of Becoming The Living
[Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]
"[...] Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named Sundar
Singh, who is not the same person at all.
"Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
"Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."
[Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by
Harold Klemp - see link]
Fact: Twitchell was born on Oct. 22, 1908
(According to Harold Klemp).
Fact: Twitchell states on page 45 of "Difficulties:"
"Sudar Singh... He died, I believe, if I'm correct,
1937; could have been a year or two off someway
there, but it was approximately in that year he
passed away. We [Paul and his sister Kay-Dee]
stayed there almost a year and were shipped
home because our parents were screaming bloody-
murder, and then finally they cut our money off
and we were forced to return."
ME: PT is, basically, saying that at 15 years of
age this was his 1st trip to India. More "facts"
to prove this are listed later.
Fact: Harold Klemp attended and graduated
from a private Lutheran all boys school and
Fact: Twitchell states on page 47 of "Difficulties"
"... the same thing occurs in the seminaries of
the Christian church. These Christian seminaries,
when you're training boys to grow up, they are
looking for all the things which will explain to
them manhood or the problems of life. It can
create sexual aberrations... you can walk around
the corner of one of the ashrams or the monasteries
and find the boys there abusing themselves." (pg 47)
ME: It's possible, according to Twitchell, that
this "abuse" contributed to Klemp's mental
break-down circa 1969-70.
Fact: Twitchell states on page 48 of "Difficulties:"
"After I had left India, came home, I was then about
sixteen, I had a year or so to do some work in order
to finish my degree."
ME: PT Born 1908, plus, age 15 equals 1923.
Fact: Twitchell states on page 70 of "Difficulties:"
"Well, anyway, in about 1947, it was right shortly
after the Indians nation, India received their freedom
from England and then became a nation, and they
had the great riots and that was over with. I went
over to Darjeeling in the east section of India.
Darjeeling is up in the northeast of India, right on
the Sikkim border.... I went up there at the time
after being over in Allahabad, and there wasn't
much left there after Sudar Singh had passed away."
FYI: [Actually PT changed Kirpal Singh's name to
Sudar Singh, and Kirpal died two years after Paul
PT: "But then I went there and I'd been told
that I would find the ECK Master Rebazar Tarzs.
I've got something about that in one of my books,
I think it's Introduction to ECK in which I have it...
I stayed there for quite some time with him, six
to seven months... Now, he initiated me there.
I had already been initiated by Sudar Singh, the
same as everybody else, the second initiation.
And then I got the third and the fourth. I went
up through about the seventh at this particular
Then he moved across over into Kashmir,
up in the Hindu Kush Mountains, and later
 but not on this trip, I followed him
up there and got the finish of my initiations."
Timeline of Facts:
1923 - PT claims that he and his sister met
Sudar in Paris and traveled with him to India.
This was PT's 1st trip to India at age 15 and
received his 1st and 2nd initiations from Sudar
1935 - Harold Klemp (on Eckankar.org) states
that Twitchell, at age 27, was "exaggerating"
and "twisting facts" to get into "Who's Who in
Kentucky," and that Twitchell had never traveled
all that far from home.
1947 - PT claims he had his 2nd trip to India
(at age 35) and received his 3rd-7th initiations
from Rebazar while staying with him for six
to seven months.
1951 - PT claims he went back to India (his
3rd trip at age 39) and received the "finish"
of his initiations from Rebazar Tarzs.
Did Twitchell "finish" with a 9th or a 12th
initiation in 1951?
Fact: In any case, the 14th Mahanta was never
mentioned by Twitchell until January 1969.
Fact: Harold Klemp states on eckankar.org
that at age 27 (1935) that Twitchell was
"exaggerating" and "twisting facts" to get
into Who's Who in Kentucky and that PT
had never traveled all that far from home
as he was claiming.
Twitchell lied about going to India to
meet Sudar Singh at age 15, plus, he
lied about this in 1971 as the "Mahanta"
just months before his untimely death.
And, PT continued the lie with the story
of meeting Rebazar in 1947. He connected
that lie to the one about getting his 1st
and 2nd initiations from Sudar, in India,
at the age of 15.
Thus, the story about meeting Rebazar,
again, on a third visit, circa 1951, to
"finish" his initiations is also a fabrication
of truth! Paul couldn't help himself. PT
was a habitual liar and a narcissist, and
for Klemp to point that out just shows
that HK was not only ignorant of the
timeline, but isn't all that capable/aware
of connecting the dots.
Plus, after Twitchell, supposedly,
received the "finish" of his initiations,
in 1951, it took until 1969 [18 years!]
for Twitchell to mention the "Mahanta"
for the first time in an ECK publication.
This is more proof that Twitchell created
the Mahanta just as he created Rebazar
and the other ECK Masters... it's all
a big fat lie! Even the Sant Mat crap
that Twitchell copied and tweaked
is a false teaching.
These facts are the main reason this
book, "Difficulties Of Becoming The
Living ECK Master" will never ever be
reprinted.... without heavy handed
> What stood out to me most from the examples you listed was Doug
> Marman's use of the word "facts".
> In the examples I gave - especially when Doug addressed my questions
> about Rebazar Tarzs on a.r.e. - it seemed to me that in some respects
> "facts" were somehow "secondary" to spiritual experience.
> I thoiught about the a.r.e. thread last night trying to fathom what
> Doug was saying about Paul's stories and things said (some of them) not
> based on facts. And frankly, it still didn't jive with me. Off hand I
> can remember at least two places where Paul Twitchell illustrated that
> Rebazar Tarzs "told him" what to write. In one place (I believe)
> Rebazar Tarzs comes to Paul's room, wakes him up, tells him to take up
> the pencil and write. (I'm referring to Dialogues With The Master and
> The Far Country.) So how can Doug suggest those were Paul's words based
> on a spiritual experience?
> Paul wrote (in so many words) that Rebazar Tarzs came and materialized
> in his room, and in one instance (I believe) the mattress sank from the
> weight of R.T. sitting on it.
> It would be nice if everybody didn't go away, all those Eckists on the
> newsgroups, and if the string of dialogues could continue today. I say
> this because there is a lot more information and examples available to
> share where many of "Paul's words" read as plagiarized from various
> books by other authors - none of them by the name of Rebazar Tarzs, or
> other Eck masters.
> "They" didn't succeed at booting me from a.r.e., and I didn't "move on"
> as once suggested. To the contrary I continued to research the FACTS -
> whether anybody likeed it or not - and have reams of examples (which
> can be illustrated and verified by REAL evidence and FACTS) about many
> of the things people were chewing on and debating over for years before
> I arrived. Some of the examples I (and others) have since found are
> those that not even David Lane was aware of (I'm talking about examples
> of Paul's writings compared with other authors) and I think probably
> that Doug Marman was unaware of.
> So new information has come in since the D.L. / D.M. debates, etc. New
> FACTS are now known. How facts can be important in one instance and
> something else in another ... I am not sure what Doug was talking
> I recall from the newspapers that sometimes when something happens that
> embarrasses the government and people want to know who is responsible -
> such as torture of prisoners, etc. - those higher up in the ladder
> have responded with things like: The first time I heard about it was
> from the news / newspaper. Iow, people claim ignorance and that they
> didn't know about something until it became public via the news. Well,
> to admit otherwise - and that they did know about it (and for a long
> time) - would be damning to them and public opinion would have them on
> a spike!
> Now I recall that (for some reason) Harold Klemp doesn't use the
> Internet. I'm sure he reads the newspapers and watches the news, but
> how much about the trove of FACTS regarding Paul's writings compared
> with other authors - INCLUDING REBAZAR TARZS - is in the newspapers, or
> on the evening news? (Maybe it should be?) Much of the new information
> and research has been put on the Internet. That's where it is (also in
> some books). And even there, we've probably all seen how apologists can
> argue against certain information being true, try to marginalize people
> and their research, even to the extent of suggesting (in so many words)
> that facts don't matter. Or, it's not about facts.
> Well, I've seen where it looks like people want to have it both ways.
> Facts matter. Facts don't matter. As far as research goes, and besides
> the stories of "spiritual experiences" that people send in, When was
> the last time the Eckankar website posted something about people doing
> real research into the stories told by Paul Twitchell? (Not to mention
> "research" about the stories sent in by Eckists today?) It was 1984
> when Harold came out with all that stuff about Paul Twitchell and when
> Harold did research. I wonder if they continue to research, or if (for
> some reason) it stopped a long time ago?
> Oh yeah, I remember it now.
> "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
> researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
> turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to say
> that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I [Doug
> Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the records.
> Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past, which
> Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough study.
> Â Â
> "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
> about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
> further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and worked
> for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early days.
> So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [....] A few
> months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
> began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
> share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
> anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
> unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
> see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [....]"
> [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]
> "[...] Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
> Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
> 1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
> Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named Sundar
> Singh, who is not the same person at all.
> "Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
> whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
> all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
> more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
> initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
> "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
> just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
> report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
> Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."
> [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by
> Harold Klemp - see link]
> They got reports? Hmm ... then maybe I should send in a report? :)
> I could give other examples where it looks like Eckankar is interested
> in stories from other people, including what people found by research.
> Apparently though, the LEM. isn't going to simply look at the Eck-Vidya
> and share answers to all of the questions people have. At the same time
> though, it looks like people pick and choose from all the information
> only what "THEY WANT" the facts to be and put the rest under the rug.
> If one disregards the reported facts written by Paul Twitchell
> concerning his meetings, encounters, and relationships with Eck Masters
> then where does it leave you? In Never Never Land with Peter Pan and
> Tinker Bell, etc.? (Hey look! He's playing a flute!)
> Are "spiritual experiences", the "stories" (and the stories that people
> send in) somehow more REAL than factual accounts which can be
> researched and verified? Or, Are "spiritual experiences" sometimes used
> as a label for anything a person wants to be true? Iow, does the land
> of make believe trump the actual facts? This is what it comes down to,
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