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5814Re: Klemp Has Over-stayed His Rein

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  • dianastanley43
    Jul 31, 2011
      I remember when Paul stated Jeasus was only a second initiate. Made me feel sort of speacial even though I could't walk on water.
      Paul based his teachings on his Sci-Fy back ground and Harol on his christian back ground. So I guess it is sort of a sci-fy christian collaberation. Which makes for good movies,but a spiritual teaching? Not so much.
      Diana Stanley

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Etznab and All,
      > Yes it's true! For 25 years Klemp
      > has required ECK Lifetime Memberships
      > to be renewed every year... at no
      > monetary cost. Of course, there's
      > a lot more pressure to make donations.
      > Plus, these donation amounts and
      > other statistics, as well as, RESA memos/
      > reports are added to each EK Leaders'
      > membership file.
      >
      > There were two occasions when EK
      > Lifetime Memberships were sold. The
      > first time it cost $500 and the second
      > time, around 1983, it was $1,000.
      > I remember the second time better
      > than the first because this was just
      > before Darwin was booted.
      >
      > Klemp has stated, if Lifetime Membership's
      > aren't renewed they will be lost and
      > a regular paid membership must be
      > obtained in order to keep one's initiations.
      > So much for those "Higher" God Worlds
      > of ECK (INNER) Initiations! LOL! Down
      > the drain, it seems, due to lack of money
      > or untimely renewal.
      >
      > HK: When you snooze you lose! There
      > is no free lunch! Klemp claims that Jesus
      > was a 2nd initiate, but was compassionate
      > enough to give out a Free Lunch to those
      > on the Mount where he gave his most
      > famous sermon. See the difference between
      > 14th initiate Klemp and, supposedly, 2nd
      > initiate Jesus! Klemp is a such a fraud!
      >
      > Non-renewal and going beyond the five
      > year rest periods are a mixed bag as far
      > as keeping the same initiation. It depends
      > upon the RESA and the rapport you have
      > with them... but that goes for getting
      > promoted too!
      >
      > It's Not about higher "Consciousness."
      >
      > How could it be when Eckists' aren't
      > "conscious" enough to know a scam
      > after observing it for 40 years! The
      > truth is, they're too close to it to see
      > it! And, when they do see it (the fraud)
      > they can't admit it or acknowledge it.
      > Instead, they react and get frustrated
      > without knowing why. Deep down in
      > the subconscious they know why they
      > are unhappy but can't face the truth on
      > a conscious level. What would they do
      > without Mahanta dependency and can
      > they admit to themselves that they were
      > fooled. Look at the friends they would
      > lose and, let's face it, friends aren't that
      > easy to come by for some people. So,
      > it's a Catch-22, but Eckists are getting
      > old and tired, especially, of the B.S. and
      > repetition. Klemp's scam could collapse
      > any day with more and more 6ths and
      > 7ths leaving... or dying off! Then again,
      > others could move on up the pretend
      > initiation ladder. That'd be special!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      >
      > Quoting:
      >
      > ... even the lifetime memberships
      > have to be renewed every year.
      > What happens if that ECKankar
      > membership isn't renewed? Even
      > a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate will
      > lose initiations if their membership
      > lapses! Why is that? Where's the
      > "inner" connection?
      >
      > *********
      >
      > About the lifetime memberships,
      > is that true? No renewal, no membership?
      >
      > I'm wondering if the same applies
      > as with other memberships. Where
      > one can go inactive (have a "rest period")
      > for up to five years but, without renewal,
      > they eventually become non-members.
      >
      >
      > prometheus wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello All,
      > > Back in 1981 I was one of many who
      > > welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
      > > actually, it was nice to think we would,
      > > now, have two ECK Masters!
      > >
      > > Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
      > > at first, because he looked like a wimp and
      > > had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
      > >
      > > However, sometime around 1990 things,
      > > for me, started to change. I noticed more
      > > and more redundancy, and those simple
      > > minded one dimensional stories started
      > > to bring back that initial embarrassment
      > > I experienced back in 1981. Except now
      > > the embarrassment was with Klemp's
      > > words and level of communication.
      > >
      > > True, there were those building projects
      > > and all of those books he was writing and
      > > all of those leadership trainings and intros
      > > and Regional seminars we had to plan and
      > > those local EK centers we had to try to keep
      > > open while planning the monthly EWS and
      > > Satsang classes and book discussions and
      > > roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
      > > But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
      > > all chelas really have are two things- their
      > > initiations and their imaginations.
      > >
      > > Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
      > > begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
      > > many are caught up in playing a role for both
      > > themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
      > > and needs power and a social environment.
      > > ECKankar has become a very comfortable
      > > religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
      > >
      > > 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
      > > accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
      > > the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
      > > Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
      > > and final stage for that initiation on the outer
      > > as confirmation while many 7ths see themselves
      > > as ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
      > > of a pink slip! They delude themselves on an
      > > ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
      > > blind and closed minded in order to protect
      > > themselves from the truth. They need to do
      > > this in order to have religion work for them.
      > >
      > > Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
      > > and expectations. They've become complacent,
      > > but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
      > > what they originally bought into, years ago, is
      > > still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
      > > chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
      > > for years and years of training they will see
      > > that they really have nothing except a number
      > > on a membership card. And, that's a membership
      > > that has to be renewed every year... even the
      > > lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
      > > year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
      > > isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
      > > will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
      > > Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
      > >
      > > Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
      > > does he? He never takes responsibility for
      > > anything bad, but seems to like credit for
      > > the good. Where have we seen this before?
      > > Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
      > > It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
      > > Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
      > > other lower plane teaching.
      > >
      > > HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
      > > isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
      > > ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
      > > But, where is that protection from disease?
      > > With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
      > > Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
      > > on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
      > > fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
      > > When HK is supposed to be the "highest
      > > consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
      > > lowered their standards?
      > >
      > > I think that the lowering of standards was
      > > a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
      > > has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
      > > years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
      > > Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
      > > and has created a different kind of ECKankar
      > > based around himself, his old Christian religion
      > > and upon his opinions.
      > >
      > > Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
      > > What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
      > > Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
      > > can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
      > >
      > > Prometheus
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > etznab wrote:
      > > Liska,
      > >
      > > Perhaps this is the dilema facing most forms
      > > of organized religion. Making those "imperfect
      > > outer teachings" more perfect and honest.
      > >
      > > Going back to that Doug Marman quote in
      > > Chap. Eleven of Dialogue in the Age of Criticism.
      > >
      > > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Eleven.htm
      > >
      > > where the quote
      > >
      > > "In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
      > > of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
      > > simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
      > > truths he was trying to share..."
      > >
      > > appears as the eigth paragraph in the response by
      > > Doug Marman to David Lane. Look at the previous
      > > seven paragraphs by Doug.
      > >
      > > Was it some kind of "default" tactic do you think?
      > >
      > > Look at David's question which preceded all that.
      > >
      > > David seemed (IMO) to be of the opinion there,
      > > that Paul was misleading his reading audience
      > > because he used the words of other writers for
      > > some of the "dialogues by Rebazar Tarzs". That
      > > was my impression of it.
      > >
      > > I've asked the same "basic" question myself"
      > > "Why not have Rebazar's REAL dialogues?" as
      > > David asked there? [My particular question was
      > > more along the lines of: Why not have the REAL
      > > Rebazar Tarzs?] And I also asked myself what
      > > does it mean, what does it suggest/imply that
      > > words from books by other authors were used to
      > > "animate" Rebazar Tarzs? In my experience, it
      > > seemed that this was a sensitive topic.
      > >
      > > Years ago I liked to think that Eckankar could
      > > really make history and come out on top if only
      > > it would clarify some of its dogma in context to
      > > actual truth. It would be a first among religions
      > > and a shining example to the rest of the world
      > > if it did this. That was my opinion at the time.
      > >
      > > Harold appeared to move in that direction years
      > > ago after he gave a long talk about Paul Twitchell,
      > > after which he said (transcript version):
      > >
      > > ".... Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bring-
      > > ing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith
      > > in the Mahantaâ€"but not at the expense of making
      > > a god out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living
      > > ECK Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As
      > > soon as we set someone above us, in potential or in
      > > fact, we have committed a crime against ourselves:
      > > We have limited the opportunity for our own unfold-
      > > ment. ...."
      > >
      > > [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold
      > > Klemp - see link]
      > >
      > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal%c3%82
      > >
      > > It's not so difficult for me to see where others who
      > > have questions are coming from. And I know what it
      > > is like (from experience) to try and ask some of the
      > > more sensitive questions about religious history my-
      > > self. It seems at times that it just isn't important to
      > > everybody else - the questions one might have. Or
      > > that others don't want to "go there".
      > >
      > > So much for that. I believe that part of a spiritual
      > > path is to become more of an individual and not be
      > > like some form of Borg drone, where your thinking
      > > and thoughts are the collective thoughts of a group
      > > of others. (Some with which you wouldn't agree as
      > > an individual having a mind and conscience of your
      > > own).
      > >
      > > It's not just a matter of What would happen to
      > > Eckankar if .... It's also a matter of people not
      > > knowing how to deal with the matter in the first
      > > place! (The matter of being ignorant when your
      > > followers expect you to be all-knowing and God-
      > > like.)
      > >
      > > How long do you think religion and spiritual
      > > paths have been subject to "organization" and
      > > founded on incomplete, missing, mythical &
      > > legendary history, etc., etc.? Hundreds, even
      > > thousands of years, and still the actual truths
      > > continue to evade millions of people because
      > > the authorities are basing their information on
      > > the information of others, based on others &
      > > others ... and others ... and others.
      > >
      > > If you ask me, many truths were lost a long
      > > time ago. Some intentionally covered up and
      > > labeled forbidden & taboo. Filling the gap are
      > > people today who claim to know the truth be-
      > > cause that is what a spiritual teacher/ master
      > > is supposed to be, apparently. So the priests
      > > and heads of religions officiate church dogma
      > > for the others on a lower level of the hierarchy
      > > it seems. Challenge that hierarchy, ask it to
      > > clarify some of the more gross contradictions,
      > > ask the sensitive questions and see where it
      > > gets you. IMO, it will sometimes lead to the
      > > truth - that the so-called hierarchy is no more
      > > "God" than is the L.E.M., or the "Mahanta's
      > > vehicle". IMHO.
      > >
      > > Etznab
      >
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