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5108Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom Notes and EK Brochure Photo

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  • prometheus_973
    Dec 21, 2009
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      You're right! Klemp has said that, "Jupiter
      was the 'Mahanta Consciousness' as it appeared
      to the Romans," or "as it appears" to EKists
      via the LEM!

      BTW- The term you were probably looking for
      is: "Adi-Mahanta. The primordial Mahanta. The
      line of Mastership begun with RAMA, the first
      world Savior, which has been handed down through
      the centuries by the ECK Masters via Oral Secret
      Teachings to those who were Initiated into the
      Order of the Vairagi." (EK Lexicon, 1998, pg. 3)

      This is interesting because this same "Rama"
      is an Indian God who HK claims "brought the
      ECK to India and later to the Aryans, the Fifth
      Root Race." So, the First Mahanta only came
      on-the-scene during the time of the Fifth Root
      Race. And, this title and Consciousness was created
      by the Vairagi Masters and not by Sugmad directly
      (pg.172).

      Now, if someone were to look up "Aryans" in
      HK's 1998 EK Lexicon they would see that this
      is the current ruling race. BTW- "RAMA" was not
      listed as being a Mahanta in the EK Lexicon...
      only a LEM. Why wouldn't Klemp list him as
      a (Full) Mahanta? Maybe he's more detailed in
      the new EK Lexicon and has done another
      Tweak (reedit).

      However, the truth is that Twitchell created
      Eckankar's Mahanta circa Jan. 1, 1969. And,
      "Mahanta" actually means "monastery head."
      Marman and many other EKists know this, but
      for Eckankar to work as a belief system one
      has to have "faith" and toss reason aside! This
      is how religions work... No Thinking is needed!

      Prometheus




      etznab wrote:

      The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
      in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

      This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
      people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
      Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

      Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
      somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
      Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
      so negative.

      In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
      further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
      and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
      in the group (trinity) as well.

      Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
      fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
      along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

      Of course some of those characters are composed
      of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
      reality in some places. IMO.

      BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
      "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
      Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
      Eckankar dictionary either.

      I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
      and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
      I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
      Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
      to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
      about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
      for illustrating them.

      Etznab


      prometheus wrote:
      You make some good points Etznab.
      I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
      was an Astral Plane God that was created
      by the Romans. Then again, I think that
      all of those Gods that religions worship
      have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
      then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
      and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
      both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
      was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
      Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
      is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
      of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
      is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

      Prometheus

      etznab wrote:

      rometheus,

      I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
      evolved over time according to descriptions
      given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
      1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
      a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
      fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
      not appear until the last couple years in the
      life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
      plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
      1970-1971?

      In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
      I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
      even given much mention, if at all. I think
      the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
      more.

      Also, I have to consider the appearance in
      Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
      where so many people (some legendary)
      from history were said to be the mahanta
      consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
      as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
      etc.

      Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
      And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
      in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
      initiate only.

      So what initiation level is the "mahanta
      consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
      can say (at this point) is the definitions
      have apparently evolved over the years. I
      believe that when the teachings became
      a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
      L.E.M. merged to become identified as
      the same thing around that time. Since I
      suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
      legal purposes and one of the things they
      ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
      person in charge & who is that person?

      This is speculation on my part. Paul did
      mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
      I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
      "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
      anta". All of these merged into the head
      of the religion and organization of Eck-
      ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
      very hard for the organization to separate
      them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
      as that might suggest the physical body,
      the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
      a limited form of "highest consciousness".
      Remember the last part for the definition
      for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

      "[....] a state of God consciousness which
      is beyond the titles given in religions which
      designate states of consciousness; the
      highest of all states of consciousness."

      [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

      It means not so much of anything to me
      what appears beside the definition(s) for
      "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
      information to be true. I think Paul said &
      wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
      erated in some places. Besides that I do
      not see how a highest state of conscious-
      ness can be identified with a human and
      limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
      Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
      a physical disability of some kind. Even
      suppose a leader died. How can human
      beings limited by the physical senses &
      human mortality equate with a "highest
      state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
      Especially one such as called "Eternal
      Mahanta" present from the beginning of
      time?

      Some things (including the highest of all
      states of consciousness) became at one
      point identified with a single human being,
      IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

      Etznab

      prometheus wrote:
      Hello Etznab,
      You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
      like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
      Compared to today?"

      I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
      who you are and where you are and
      when you were there, as well as, one's
      state of mind. Some people are experiencing
      the "Golden Age" now while others have
      experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
      lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
      involve the consciousness of world society...
      only yours and from your perspective.
      All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
      However, the knowledge of true
      history is an aide for us to expand our
      current awareness and to help made
      it better for those who come after us.

      "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
      truth escape us? How might that have happ-
      ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
      in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
      was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
      untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
      fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
      ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
      blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
      as literally true."

      One can look at different stages and timeframes
      of any society and see where the past was
      better, in some areas, and worse in other
      areas.

      Censorship has always been a control tactic
      used by those in power and how it's used has
      varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
      H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
      Why censorship is condoned is related to having
      an "EK membership card." One has to follow
      the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
      many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
      most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
      them as it is with any religious belief system.
      Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
      use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

      And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
      historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
      Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
      It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
      that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
      the questions and doubt that would ensue.
      Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
      effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
      KAL plane) fears and deceit!

      Prometheus

      etznab wrote:
      [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
      inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
      What they got in return were donations. Of course,
      they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
      Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

      Something from the description of the movie I saw
      where it documented various forms of deception that
      were employed to make miracles appear to happen
      using different forms of technology. This is where it
      appears that science was used to promote ideas of
      miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
      was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
      as well. In my opinion:

      "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
      and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
      DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
      explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
      sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
      hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
      amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
      were turned to the construction of what were little
      more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
      icated and impressive ones."

      http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

      I believe that program appeared on the History
      Channel some time back.

      Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
      ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
      history, have told stories that were mythological
      and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
      used teachings and quotes from the past which
      were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
      language nobody today completely understands,
      etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
      investigate, examine and even question "outer"
      forms of teachings - from science to religion.

      Today it appears ironic how religion and science
      are apparently divided, when many have argued
      it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
      ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
      an opinion that religion was described in terms
      a child could understand. Also, that religion and
      science were not two separate things in the very
      beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
      described in "scientific" terms then because the
      people knew how both were connected.

      So, when science today is used to investigate,
      examine and, in some cases expose religious
      fraud I think it helps to remember how science
      was not always the record of ignorance about
      how things work that is in existence today.

      And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
      times may have been much more advanced,
      not less advanced (generally), compared with
      people living today. Looking at remains of the
      past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
      lens and portraying them as less civilized,
      less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
      major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
      about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
      when monuments were constructed and tech-
      nology existed that people today are still try-
      ing to fathom.

      Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
      "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
      Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
      truth escape us? How might that have happ-
      ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
      in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
      was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
      untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
      fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
      ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
      blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
      as literally true.

      Etznab
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