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5013Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?

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  • etznab@aol.com
    Oct 17 3:50 PM
      Some time ago I took notice of the words
      "purukh" (Purush) and "Prakrti" (Prakrta).
      How they contained similar sounds.

      At the heart of explanations for creation
      and how "material" & "spiritual" coexist
      I found those two words. In Indian texts

      Both words begin by illustrating the con-
      sonants P + R. Prakrti, however, appears
      to have the Sanskrit root "kr", which IMO
      is connected with the ideas of action and
      karma. The "ti" part could be a "feminine"
      ending (I'm guessing).

      Both of those words are at the heart of
      creation according to certain teachings.
      They also contain the "letters" P + R +
      K (when you spell purush as purukh).

      Here are some etymologies that may,
      or may not help.

      prak - "Definitions: previously, before, first[ly]

      puru - "Definitions: 'much, many'." (Vedic)


      In the Vedas there is a Dawn Maiden
      by the name of Ushas, I believe.

      Ushas - "The lovely Hindu dawn maiden who
      sprung from the head of Dyaus. The twin sister
      of Nakt, or Ratri [the goddess of night] (Hindu
      Mythology). Associated spellings/words: usas
      ['shining; east'] (Sanskrit); uchanti ['shining']
      (Vedic); eos; aurora."

      Notice the word uchanti has a "c".

      The "c" in Purukh changing to "s" is not very
      uncommon. I've seen a number of cases where
      the "c" and "k" sounds evolve to "s".

      Viva La France! (Home of the Franks :)

      In some places the definition for "guru" means
      "dispeller of darkness". Now I wonder if that is
      connected to the idea of "light bearer"?

      Light and darkness are common symbols for
      good and evil. However, what does Purukh &
      Prakrta really symbolize? [BTW, the latter is
      connected with the gender that was once de-
      monized in the Bible. The feminine. Consider
      also how in many traditions the "Sat Guru" is
      (the vehicle of which, at least) is associated
      with the opposite, or "masculine" gender.]

      Is this really a very unique teaching? The idea
      that "God" is male & "Nature" is female? It is
      really quite common actually.

      In the Anurag Sagar it seemed that Kal Niranjan
      wanted to create a world or something. And here
      is what it said on the Sant Mat site:

      Fifth Shabda – Kal-Niranjan : Full name of the
      Negative Power, often shortened to Kal (q.v.).
      Niranjan means "beyond illusion," and is applied
      to Kal ("Time") because he is the creator of illusion.


      Kal, the creator of illusion, is Niranjan? Beyond

      Isn't that special :)

      Another name for Kal Niranjan on the site seems
      to be Dharam Rai. This being seems to be quite
      devotional to Sat Purush. One day, however, the
      being appears to say (these are in italics):

      "Oh, Sahaj, my brother – go and make this request
      to Sat Purush: I don't like this small place. Please
      give me a big kingdom. In my heart I have felt such
      love for Him! He should bless me with a big place.
      He should either give me the world of the gods, or
      else a separate world."


      Sat Purush replies (also italics):

      After hearing the words of Sahaj, Sat Purush said this:

      "I am pleased with Dharam Rai; take this to your heart:
      I have given him the three Worlds, now go and tell him
      to develop the Void plane. Oh Sahaj, tell him to make
      his creation there."

      And at the bottom of the page it has a description for
      what is the void plane.

      "The Void Plane: The three worlds in their pre-existent



      Now I am wondering how old are these teachings, the
      story, whatever, in the Anurag Sagar? And how do I
      know they are the original, for one? And how do I know
      it is not the case of one person borrowing from another
      and making up their own version of things?

      Sant Mat and Eckankar both hearken back to Kabir
      when recounting the history of their teachings. And
      if Sant Mat was know earlier than the word - and the
      modern day - "Eckankar", Where did Sant Mat come
      from? Where did Kabir get his teachings? For that

      This is a Wikipedia quote:

      The Sant Mat movement was not homogeneous, and
      consisted mostly of the Sants' own socio-religious
      attitudes which were based on bhakti (devotion) as
      described a thousand years earlier in the Bhagavad
      Gita.[3] Sharing as few conventions with each other as
      with the followers of the traditions they challenged, the
      Sants appear more as a diverse collection of spiritual
      personalities than a specific religious tradition, although
      they acknowledged a common spiritual root.[4]


      Whether true or not, that gave me the impression of
      so many people scattered around the area each with
      their own particular form of tradition.

      Here is a page with summary for the philosophy of

      "The basic religious principles he espoused are simple.
      According to Kabir, all life is an interplay of two spiritual
      principles. One is the personal soul (Jivatma) and the
      other is God (Paramatma). It is Kabir's view that salvation
      is the process of bringing into union these two divine


      The bringing into union? Nanak appears to suggest the
      contact with Nam. And Radha Soami has the sound
      current before spiritual liberation. And before the sound
      current, has contact with a living master. Eckankar also
      appears to echo the Sat Guru, Shabda & Jivan Mukti
      paradigm (notice the word "jiva" in Jivan Mukti).

      I'm trying to spell out the "apparent" duality being here
      described in symbolic terms. For example, there are
      the terms "Atma" and "Jivatma". One appears to mean
      the "spiritual" principle of soul and the other the "living"
      principle (that tied to matter). Mystic Judaism and even
      Islam have different kinds of "souls", too. The "animal"
      soul, etc.

      What is the "common root" in all of this? Whatever it is
      there appear to be dozens of ways (and religions) trying
      to explain it. Now it so happens there are a number of
      different paths (Eckankar included?) which make seem
      as though the prerequisite for spiritual liberation means
      joining their particular group? Accepting their particular
      "Living Master" (prerequisite meaning what you need to
      do first)? Did I spell that right?

      Something is wrong with this picture if several different
      paths and religions have it that their version is the true
      version and all the others are somehow less. Offshoots,

      This post is just a long-winded way of saying I doubt it
      that all appear to have a common root. Because if they
      did then somebody would have discovered it by now &
      painted a picture of the "plant" that has since evolved.
      Instead I see a whole orchard of "fruit trees" and even
      nobody is actually certain it was an "apple tree" in the
      Garden of Eden.

      If we had the "root" then wouldn't we have the truth?


      -----Original Message-----
      From: etznab@...
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sat, Oct 17, 2009 4:04 pm
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular


      I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.

      And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.

      Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked

      similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I

      believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I

      saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed

      over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks

      similar in some ways, but different.


      Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and


      In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh

      are mentioned here.


      It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak

      Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)

      The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the

      teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number

      of similarities. IMO.

      The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are

      curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya

      philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show

      the order and sequence of creation.)

      The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).

      It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for

      Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by


      The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.


      The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.


      The apparent tendency in both systems seems

      to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".

      From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:

      "With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:

      When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was

      incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the

      body of Sat Purush – that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"


      I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described

      as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's

      story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,

      where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".

      IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are

      the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths

      literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas

      that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal

      organized religious interpretations which may be far,

      far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-

      come disconnected from the true origins of their path

      appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"

      leading the "blind".

      As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!

      See what I mean? :)

      For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)

      is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To

      look at where they came from & how the history evolved.

      Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and

      clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have

      visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't

      have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths

      except when they are taken literally and people don't see

      the difference between fiction and fact.

      Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can

      the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell

      from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?

      I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from

      the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and

      keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same

      teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the

      lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?

      Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-

      ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?

      However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these

      stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.

      Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of

      them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those

      sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be

      they members of a particular religion or not - often have

      to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms

      of "torture" for speaking their minds.

      Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-

      pool and everything goes down the drain? :)


      -----Original Message-----

      From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>

      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:37 am

      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular



      From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one

      (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.


      I don't know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru Nanak did

      (do you know?) but, although they never met in the physical,

      these two seemed to be on the same page,

      so to speak.


      Do you have "The Kabir Book" by Robert Bly?


      It is all poetry.


      Thanks for the link.


      Fifteen years ago or so I was trying to figure out where

      Kabir got this information.


      Do you know?  

      --- On Thu, 10/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

      From: etznab@... <etznab@...>

      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular


      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

      Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 11:33 PM


      That is when I began to discover the books we weren't

      supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to

      connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"

      all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.


      Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know

      about Kal Niranjan, etc.

      Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas

      issued from Sat Purush.

      "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-

      Niranjan was incarnated."

      http://santmat- thetruth. de/index. php?option= com_book&

      book=4817& page=23

      This page tells about it. And the links go to how the

      lower worlds were created.

      I doubt that is all to be taken literally.

      Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on


      "No written instructions had been put

      down for the

      followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the

      sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,

      took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the

      ancient science of Soul Travel."

      [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1

      (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,

      p. 59]

      And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than

      Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly

      gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).


      -----Original Message-----

      From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>

      To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

      Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm

      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular



      Hi there!


      The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!


      Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published

      short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with

      my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my

      idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very



      I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's


      but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in

      the margins

      of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in


      to have any kind

      of relationship with Spirit.


      And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 

      Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 


      How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?


      And so forth all the way back to Gakko?


      It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.


      That is when I began to discover the books we weren't

      supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 

      connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"

      all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.


      And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"

      throughout history.


      Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."


      I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,

      say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all

      psychologically open to auto-suggestion.


      If things go well, it is because of Harold. If

      not, it is because

      the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 


      Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.


      Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.


      Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.


      Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"

      out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences" , but fear of the

      unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering

      BECAUSE of Eckankar!


      They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 

      Their little world of "Super Normal" people.


      With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"

      are in Eckankar.


      What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"

      or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations" !


      What could be worse than that? 


      Or being "demoted" as a person in any



      They give all their power to the heirarchy.


      They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,

      but it is psychological.


      Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 


      The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.


      But you knew that!







      --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>


      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>


      [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?

      To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

      Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM


      Hello All,

      Thanks for sharing your

      comments and the info

      about these books!

      As far as "transcending

      religion" it seems that this

      is what we thought we were

      doing when we joined the

      "path" of Eckankar way back


      Early on, Eckankar seemed

      to have a certain mystique

      about it. The reality, now,

      is that it was never what we

      imagined or desired. This

      PT/HK consciousness is based

      upon delusions, lies, and

      manipulations frozen

      in time as meaningless and

      imagined experiences and

      dreams via Klemp's over-

      simplified and mind


      hypnotic message. This is

      the "real" reason people fall

      asleep during his talks! And,

      there's No spiritual meat


      The Eckankar message is

      merely a redundancy and

      regurgitation of empty 2nd

      and 4th Plane thoughts and


      PT's Eckankar is a New Age/

      Westernized rewrite of the

      Eastern thoughts and dogmas

      once borrowed and plagiarized

      (compiled) from Sant Mat

      religions (etc.), and from

      more knowledgeable/

      enlightened people by

      the trickster Twitchell.

      HK's EK "path" has not only

      become Christianized, but

      has also been exposed as

      just another "Feel Good"

      religious sect that preaches

      one thing and does another!

      It's a Codependent scam!

      Thus, the Klemps' egos

      are feeling pretty good

      right now and the "trickle-

      down effect" is still sustaining

      their EK followers/sheep/

      chickens in the same ways

      as other religions work


      magic on the numb, dumb,

      fearful, and superstitious


      Still, for Eckists who think

      they can see beyond the

      veil/void it's amazing to

      see that they are quite

      incapable of true change

      and of discovering the

      real path of TRUTH, and

      of experiencing the art

      of the obvious.

      Truth has escaped these

      Eckists and they will forever

      remain a pawn of the KAL

      and under Klemp's trance

      of providing "sales service."

      This, of course, benefits HK's

      selfish motives, and, on the

      other hand, it helps to give

      Eckists a "higher" purpose.

      This is why Klemp feels he

      is doing no harm since it

      provides of service for lost

      Souls until they become advanced

      enough to realize they don't

      need a middleman.

      However, the "catch" lies

      within the promises made

      and the innate desire of

      soul to "Know" God and to

      return Home again. Eckankar

      manipulates this desire


      "initiations" that are turned

      into a KAL "Trap/Test."

      However, Not Desiring Initiations

      (via a pure heart) is another

      trap/test that has merely been

      disguised while the "desire"

      remains hidden from outer

      sight. Thus, it seems to be

      okay to "imagine" (and still


      higher initiations on

      the "INNER" via the ruse of

      needing a Mahanta for more

      and more of these fake initiations

      in order to expand consciousness

      for more and more spiritual


      Eckists are chasing their tails

      via Twitchell's and Klemp's

      rendition of circular logic and

      thinking. How can Self-Mastery

      and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished

      in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp

      is training Eckists to become

      more and more Codependent

      upon the Mahanta and their

      desires and attachments?

      Look at the ECK stories... they

      all require the intercession and

      help of the Mahanta. Eckists,


      self-hypnosis and programming,

      (attachment) are being taught

      to call upon the Mahanta for

      anything and everything.. . but

      where is Soul and where is the

      ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because

      one mouthes certain "charged"

      4th Plane words or thinks he/

      she is "detached" doesn't make

      it so!

      What's interesting is that these

      two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)

      don't require money in order

      to maintain (outer and Inner

      initiations) a higher consciousness. ..

      but Klemp does! Initiations aren't

      needed! This is what structured

      (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in

      order to control groups of people.

      I'm amazed that Eckists can't or

      don't want to see the correlation

      and connect-the- dots.

      Why can't or won't Eckists connect-

      the-dots? It probably has to do

      with their feelings of being "Superior

      Normal" and the delusion that

      gives them "all the answers" in

      order to alleviate their


      and fears. The ego makes a better

      servant than it does a master,

      but with "initiations" and a "RESA

      hierarchy" Eckists can't separate

      ego from Soul.

      Thus, when "Starting To Get It"

      (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)

      writes what she did, in the 09/2009


      Letter, one has to wonder...

      What has Klemp been teaching

      his followers since he's been

      in charge?


      realbizarretarzs wrote:

      So true. I really enjoyed your


      I used to do that sort of stuff

      until it became more sad than


      Also, a while back, I forgot

      to mention the books of

      Alan Watts, starting with

      "The Way of Zen" and

      "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

      The second title, of course,

      is a paradox, but one that

      makes sense without having

      to go too far into the book

      to see what he is talking about.

      One doesn't have to be necessarily

      into Zen or even

      Buddhism to

      understand where he was coming


      His books are very easy to read

      and are somewhat humorous.

      Interestingly, he obtained

      a master's degree in theology

      and "divinity" but went on to

      write twenty to thirty books

      on Zen and Indian and


      philosophies, and the psychology

      of religion, and the importance

      of mysticism insofar as the

      individual transcending man-

      made religion.

      whitemoby wrote:

      Truth can never by systemized,

      no matter how eloquently.


      Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

      In the story, Joseph Knecht,

      after following instructions

      to the letter, but not losing

      his intuition, begins to question

      everything, and comes to

      see "Castilia" (or, insert your

      favorite or not-so-favorite

      community Utopia) as a kind

      of ivory tower, oblivious to

      real life, and thus, reality.

      He begins to realize that,

      after many years, and


      relationships, Castilia is a

      self-protected society that

      does little, if anything, for

      the world outside its borders,

      and is burderned by a hierarchy

      of personalities and games

      people play.

      I won't reveal any more than

      this, in

      case someone is

      currently reading "Magister

      Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"

      but I will say this - throughout

      the whole story, Bruce Willis

      is dead.


      No, actually, the truth seeker,

      Knecht (which, in German,

      means servant and/or knight)

      (or so the Germans would have

      us believe) is, to the dumb-

      foundment of his "superiors",

      really looking for truth.

      No substitutes.

      I hope I didn't give away too

      much, as the book is almost

      600 pages long, but, actually,

      I haven't, because there is

      so much truth in the story

      that everytime I re-read it,

      I realize something new.

      I know we used to say that

      about certain

      ECK books

      (before Harold) but the

      stuff that Paul took from

      others is timeless as well.

      What was kind of amusing

      is that when I read the book

      the first time, Darwin was

      the "Master."

      One of the first main characters

      in the story is the "Music Master."

      prometheus wrote:

      Here's a review from Amazon.com

      of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

      "What is the Glass Bead Game?

      It is no less than the highest

      reason that an entire future

      civilization exists. It is the

      grand and ongoing synthesis

      of all knowledge into a unified,

      integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

      It is an attempt to forge a

      holographic intellectual world

      where all is interconnected and

      reflected in every part. This is

      a mission to weave the golden

      thread of significance and meaning

      through every part of a culture-

      science and the arts and the

      spiritual are all unified into a

      system of

      concentric, interpenetrating


      All this is primarily accomplished

      by using the language of music

      and mathematics as common

      universal symbolism (the "glass

      beads" are part of a symbolic


      aid that was once used

      for this purpose.)

      It is no wonder that the book

      places the first origins of the

      game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,

      and Socratic ethics. No wonder

      that the League of Journeyers

      to the East also figure prominently

      in its development. To some

      extent the Game has been the

      goal of all sensitive and introspective

      individuals and groups down

      through the ages.

      All of this stands in stark contrast

      to our own Feuilletonistic Age

      where all knowledge, all culture,

      is unsynthesized, chaotic, and

      largely meaningless babble.

      The crisis that develops from

      this is that even if you accomplish

      this grand synthesis in some isolated

      ivory tower refuge of


      contemplatives- it isn't enough.

      It is necessary to reach out to the

      entire society once it is achieved

      in the same way that a Bodhisattva

      attempts to enlighten the rest


      mankind instead of individually

      passing onto Nirvana. The entire

      society must be made whole and

      sacred and not just an isolated elite.

      This is the realization that comes

      even to the Magister Ludi, the

      Master of the Game.

      For the game to be ultimately

      meaningful we have to coach

      everyone to eventually become


      ************ ********* ********* ****

      Thus, another reason to justify religion!

      Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/

      outflow principle) be accomplished without

      the religious strings attached? Not by

      Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached

      to their membership donations or else

      they can lose


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