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4735Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

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  • etznab@aol.com
    Jun 27, 2009
      Typo correction. The following sentence

      "I don't have to have guilt on my conscience,
      living with the thought I am knowingly spreading
      fact for fiction."

      should read: fiction for fact, instead of fact
      for fiction.

      Etznab

      -----Original Message-----
      From: etznab@...
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2009 6:47 pm
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
      Soul "Body"










      I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".

      In fact, I would call it very much alive and is

      the basis for many people's present & future

      beliefs about numerous things.



      Going back and clarifying the past is what

      I am seeking to do, by isolating the context

      of those many stories I have read and heard

      told in Eckankar books and discussions.



      This is something I've been wanting to do

      for a long time. Establish the "context". For

      example, What is the literal truth and what

      is not?



      Here is why I think this important. When I

      can prove beyond a doubt that something is

      fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that

      regard. It's power over me would not be the

      same, not have the same influence & power

      over my belief system and psyche as some-

      thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With

      myth and fiction - knowing a source is that
      -

      it leaves me with the liberty to explore further

      and to learn how the story came about in the

      first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the

      people who take pseudo religion and history

      to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.

      I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &

      infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my

      conscience, living with the thought I am know-

      ingly spreading fact for fiction.



      BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.

      I'm just now getting around to reading mail.



      Etznab



      -----Original Message-----

      From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm

      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the

      Soul "Body"



      Hi Prometheus



      Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman

      connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff

      being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just

      mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane

      Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had

      in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a

      dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk

      in the present.



      Jay



      =0
      AFrom: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08

      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul

      "Body"



      Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,



      Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's



      fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam



      that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that



      this is similar to beating a dead horse



      when sorting out the truth from all the



      crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be



      distracted from the current, now, happenings



      under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.



      =0

      A

      Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.



      He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off



      the hook via his distractions involving



      Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,



      avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon



      PT's "creative writing" by manipulating



      the lies and myth that Twitchell created



      in order to confuse the issue.



      Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,



      but became more and more insane over



      time. And, look at those "creative" people



      in business who have scammed thousands



      of individuals out of their life savings! They



      even scammed hospitals and non-profit



      foundations!
      Very "creative" weren't they!



      Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's



      expected from a person who paid to be



      included in "The International Who's Who



      of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,



      why do EKists need Klemp when they can



      "create" their own reality/destiny and make



      themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a



      Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is



      redundant and lives in the past by quoting



      historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote



      EK Masters, still living in a physical body,



      with their current views of society and how



      it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where



      are these relevant "insights" from these EK



      Masters?



      BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote



      a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes



      a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,



      actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real



      truth about Marman's book is that it comes



      much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



      Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that



      "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and



      that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"



      as well!



      As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"



      it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues




      With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever



      said/written about his discussions with Rebazar



      or any other EK Master!



      FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!



      This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the



      "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as



      the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as



      the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned



      about this "upper region," although, it is referred



      to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-



      looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This



      happens because asking too many questions shows



      spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and



      in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"



      comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for



      answers. However, all "answers" must agree with



      the same text that contain the conflicting info!



      This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma



      works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,



      or they're Black Ball

      ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"



      within the Satsang Society.



      Prometheus



      Jay wrote:



      Dear Etznab



      Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,



      its a fictional piece based on the well20known



      metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..



      I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson



      features it as part of his hypothesis as us having



      multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,



      in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher



      Consciousness Society website. You'll find them



      by clicking on the classes button and then the



      audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to



      them in order as not to get confused of what's



      being discussed and explained by Johnson,



      the particular section of Over soul seven and



      Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



      g'luk



      Jay



      >



      >



      >



      > ____________ _________ _________ __



      > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



      >



      >



      Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



      >



      Etznab,



      Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



      >



      Prometheus,



      Etznab wrote:



      > No. I haven't.



      >



      > The reference to number seven interests me.



      > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are



      > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v

      ersion of=0
      D



      > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave



      > me the impression of eight basic planes, where



      > the eighth (and highest) was considered above



      > them all. Like, something on another level, so



      > to speak. Examples:



      >



      > p. 156



      >



      > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet



      > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres



      > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear



      > all!"



      >



      > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,



      > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm



      > not sure. That quote is on the second page



      > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.



      > Question: Why does he mention seven?]



      >



      > For some reason, I'm under the impression



      > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from



      > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the



      > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in



      > the same book.



      >



      > p. 195



      >



      > "When I want to show the world my highest



      > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.



      > This is my greatest gift and boon.=2
      0He is the



      > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will



      > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree



      > final for he represents my power in the seven



      > lower worlds."



      >



      > [That was fro

      m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.



      > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the



      >



      > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in



      > my earlier post. The being supposed to have



      > spoken those words was either Anami, or the



      > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could



      > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that



      > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.



      > Consider the last seven words in that quote:



      >



      > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."



      >



      > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.



      > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?



      > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental



      > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami



      > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but



      > I suspect the earlier models had around eight



      > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's



      > book=2
      0would mention this many and then the



      > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give



      > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative



      > haste, and will have to go back & check the



      > names of the planes for accuracy.)



      >



      > In the next chapter following that one (THE



      > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs



      > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph



      > of the chapter:



      >



      > p. 1

      97



      >



      > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take



      > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond



      > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth



      > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So



      > you will then know for yourself. [....]



      >



      > p. 199



      >



      > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,



      > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are



      > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must



      > serve to take the message of the divine to all my



      > creations throughout the seven spheres."



      >



      > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And



      > by non
      e other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,



      > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-



      > other time mentions seven spheres.



      >



      > It was the context from those chapters that gave me



      > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",



      > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a



      > place "above" them and making a total of eight.



      >



      > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.



      > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to



      > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even



      > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in



      > a total of only seven planets.



      >



      > As I begin re

      ading through the Eck books again -



      > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious



      > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,



      > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing



      > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's



      > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to



      > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand



      > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was



      > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

      =0
      D

      > materials. Like, how much of it was material that



      > was already known to history? How much was in



      > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D



      > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?



      > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,



      > how much of the material had actually come direct



      > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens



      > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?



      >



      > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and



      > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,



      > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with



      > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.



      >



      > Etznab



      >



      > -----Original Message-----



      > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>



      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com



      > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20

      09 1:41 pm



      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.

      the Soul



      > "Body"



      >



      > Hello Etznab,



      >



      > You make some good points and have



      >



      > brought up more information to point



      =0
      A>



      > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.



      >



      > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"



      >



      > and D.W.T.M. later.



      >



      > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra



      >



      > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;



      >



      > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th



      >



      > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"



      >



      > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral



      >



      > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to



      >



      > overlook this point. And, look at how



      >



      > many years Klemp has instructed EKists



      >



      > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/



      >



      > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra



      >



      > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0



      > D



      >



      > Chakra is still being used after 28 years



      >



      > under Klemp's rule(s)!



      >



      > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is



      >



      > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There



      >



      > is a belief that Groups
      of Souls have an



      >



      > Over-Soul and that

      these Souls need to



      >



      > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)



      >



      > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/



      >



      > being that same Over-Soul which, then,



      >



      > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can



      >



      > by-pass the hierarchy and can become



      >



      > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,



      >



      > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have



      >



      > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



      >



      > Prometheus



      >



      > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI



      >



      > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is



      >



      > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"



      >



      > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th



      >



      > Plane!



      >



      > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"



      >



      > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,



      >



      > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect



      >



      > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "
      advanced"



      >



      > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"



      >



      > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]



      >



      > Etznab wrote:



      >



      > I would like to know the difference between



      >



      > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,



      >



      > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something



      >



      > about the inner=2

      0form of the Living Eck Master.



      >



      > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called



      >



      > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0



      > D



      >



      > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.



      >



      > This is something I've been contemplating



      >



      > for some time: What is different with the two



      >



      > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me



      >



      > about this subject).



      >



      > There's another thing on this subject, and it



      >



      > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,



      >



      > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided



      >



      > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the




      >



      > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,



      >



      > any of the other lower world bodies where there



      >



      > are many different ones - including the physical



      >



      > body.



      >



      > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma



      >



      > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is



      >



      > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul



      >



      > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.



      >



      > Something like another dimension.



      >



      > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?



      >



      > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of



      >



      > the L

      iving Eck Master become so important?



      >



      > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled



      >



      > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that



      >



      > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My



      >



      > understanding is that the astral body is limited



      >



      > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup



      >



      > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one=2
      0would have



      >



      > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.



      >



      > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book



      >



      > it reads like that was his first vis



      > it. However, in



      >



      > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The



      >



      > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice



      >



      > already!



      >



      > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



      >



      > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the



      >



      > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.



      >



      > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the



      >



      > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and



      >



      > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after



      >



      > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul



      >



      > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)



      >



      > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all



      >



      > the way to the nameless

      plane. Anami. & not



      >



      > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem



      >



      &
      gt; quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-



      >



      > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's



      >



      > Fang account and the year 1957.



      >



      > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



      >



      > I wonder, were those two different books, the



      >



      > two different manuscripts, about the same basic



      >



      > experience?



      >



      > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an



      >



      > online version of The Path of the Masters? by



      >



      > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter



      >



      > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the



      >



      > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The



      >



      > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257



      >



      > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami



      >



      > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:



      >



      > A Talk With Rami Nuri.



      >



      > I've



      > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early



      >



      > books and read from the beginning, looking at



      >


      0D
      > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over



      >



      > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at



      >



      > this point in time. I'm discovering things that



      >



      > had20escaped me up until now.



      >



      > Etznab



      >



      > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



      >



      > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul



      >



      > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that



      >



      > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,



      >



      > or contemplate upon his Physical image via



      >



      > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream



      >



      > of an Astral image. How is this the same as



      >



      > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God



      >



      > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal



      >



      > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather



      >



      > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?



      >



      > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches



      >



      > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is



      >



      > of the Lower Planes=2
      0just as all other religions



      >



      > teach and other "believers" experience!



      >



      > Prometheus



      >



      > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



      >



      > Hello All,



      >



      > It was bad enough that HK sold



      >



      > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"



      >



      > portrait. Now he's selling the "True



      >



      > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



      > 0D



      >



      > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

      =0

      A

      >



      > portrait accurately? No, not quite!



      >



      > The truth has (once again) been



      >



      > embellished and distorted! Klemp,



      >



      > no doubt, likes this rendition because



      >



      > it makes him appear younger. Thus,



      >



      > this drawing looks more "sketch"



      >



      > like than portrait like!



      >



      > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given



      >



      > a more modern, shaved look, and



      >



      > does not appear as thin as it really



      >



      > is (t
      he inside portion of his ear is



      >



      > different too).



      >



      > When looking at the front cover photo,



      >



      > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic



      >



      > World of ECKankar" we can see that



      >



      > Klemp parts his hair on the side and



      >



      > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait



      >



      > makes Klemp look younger.



      >



      > The question ECKists should be asking is,



      >



      > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they



      >



      > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his



      >



      > followers all want to "imagine" that they look



      >



      > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't



      >



      > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,



      >



      > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0

      D



      >



      > I think it's funny that Klemp names



      >



      > this new portrait "True Friend." Would



      >



      > a "true friend" say such nasty



      > and mean



      >



      > things to you? These RESAs and ot
      her



      >



      > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.



      >



      > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but



      >



      > now they see that there are strings



      >



      > attached and that it's a one-way friend-



      >



      > ship.



      >



      > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge



      >



      > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of



      >



      > himself, or give it to you... free of



      >



      > charge? Hmmmmmm.



      >



      > On another note, I saw how Klemp can



      >



      > make even more money from his image.



      >



      > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look



      >



      > as though he has a big hole running



      >



      > through his head. So, maybe HK could



      >



      > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.



      >



      > The chain would go through his ears!



      >



      > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for



      >



      > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK



      >



      > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as



      >


      =0
      A
      > he does with portraits, books, etc.



      >



      > Prometheus



      >



      &

      gt;



      > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

      .yahoo.com



      >



      >



      > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

      .yahoo.com



      >



      Send instant messages to your online friends

      http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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