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4729Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp Continues the Religious Fraud

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  • Jason Mc Dermott
    Jun 26, 2009
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      Hi Prometheus

      Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y'know somewhere to start..interesting line of inquiry though. Also thanks for the detail on becoming a 5th initiate I never really looked into it though. The sites great with all the files you've put up..great help.

      Thanks again

      Jay




      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 5:02:45
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp Continues the Religious Fraud

      Hello Jay,
      Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what
      you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has
      been discussed here, on ESA, (see the
      archives), and there are Links and Files,
      also, that show and discuss many of these
      subjects as well. However, the main focus
      of ESA is to present the real TRUTH behind
      this long-going scam by showing how Klemp
      positioned himself to inherit it and how
      he continues to use Twit's Shariyats to
      continue the lies, myth, and the belief
      systems (fear and faith) that all religions
      use. - P.

      Jay wrote:
      Dear Etznab

      >
      I my self am doing similar in studying back
      over the shariyat's to see how much of these
      two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving
      me a starting point in finding Twitchell's sources.
      But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the
      vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new
      at this stage,everyone but those in denial know
      he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever.
      Then of course there are the number of books
      written on twitchell and if you can get your hands
      on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of
      the story on this enigma of a man:
      >
      The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy
      of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
      >
      P: *[FYI-Marman admits his book does
      not actually contain "the whole truth"
      and that much is just a rehash of his
      previous opinions and speculations]
      >
      The Rosetta Stone of God by James Davis
      >
      P: [James Davis, is a former EKist who has
      denounced Klemp and his own book about
      his "Mahanta" experiences. ]
      >
      Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
      >
      P: [Ford is a former RESA, 7th initiate, and
      spokesperson for ECKankar just like those
      who took his place]
      >
      The ever noctorious David Lane also, maybe
      though the above books have helped move
      on from some of his theories and material,
      but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.
      He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous
      book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,
      just type his name in and you'll find it.
      >
      P: *[David started the ball rolling]
      >
      Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting
      to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews
      of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe
      he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists
      to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back
      on focus for one's connection with God.You can join
      the Higher Consciousness Society website he has
      set up for free and down load some audio's of talks
      with others..they' re quite good.
      >
      Also this may be worth checking out,this was one
      of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck,
      its on you tube the link is
      >
      http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego& feature=related
      >
      As you'll come to realize, if you visit her site the
      girl in it is married to an another 'eck master'
      apparently based on Twitchells original teachings.
      the website is
      >
      http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html
      >
      Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed
      of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established
      when kicked out of Eck.
      >
      P: [They renamed their splinter group (sect) because
      Gross didn't name a successor to his ATOM group]
      >
      Also as you may know there are a few other off
      shoots claiming to be the Godman, even one..
      actually can't remember him.. should have book
      marked his site on my discoverys, but anyway..
      he has his own line of past masters. Another
      guy who will mail you intro material is Master
      Path by Sri Gary Olsen.
      >
      I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage, I myself
      haven't the cash to purchase any of the books
      I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my
      hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so
      far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good
      perspective of where I may be going next. What
      really makes his insights for us all stand out are
      two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2
      in connection with this is the Indian spiritual
      master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that
      all the time his students said he was with them
      on the inner planes and how they would praise
      him for his place in their spiritual development,
      he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it
      nor did he have any knowledge of being with the
      students on the inner planes...I mean come on
      how profound is this.
      >
      Though we are on the intellectual level only with
      all this talk..it is basic and important though.
      I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old.
      I've practised the HU chant all this time and
      studied my dreams hard as well as the practice
      of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced
      i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied
      or ignored the possible science of the brain that
      maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed
      to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd
      initiate always told it was my choice, though
      I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should
      be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.
      >
      >
      P: [Actually, Jay, it takes about 18 years,
      under Klemp, to become a 5th, unless, you're a
      professional and then it might be 15 years. However,
      you, still, have to read his books and take trainings
      (become an Arahata) and be in and teach Satsangs,
      do intros, book discussions, etc., etc.]
      >
      >
      I am now at a period of intense reading, discovering
      and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the
      remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)
      >
      Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort
      of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
      >
      http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html
      >
      hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon
      >
      Jay


      >
      > From: etznab
      >
      > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
      >
      > Prometheus,
      >
      > No. I haven't.
      >
      > The reference to number seven interests me.
      > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
      > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
      > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
      > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
      > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
      > them all. Like, something on another level, so
      > to speak. Examples:
      >
      > p. 156
      >
      > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
      > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
      > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
      > all!"
      >
      > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
      > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
      > not sure. That quote is on the second page
      > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
      > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
      >
      > For some reason, I'm under the impression
      > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
      > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
      > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
      > the same book.
      >
      > p. 195
      >
      > "When I want to show the world my highest
      > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
      > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
      > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
      > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
      > final for he represents my power in the seven
      > lower worlds."
      >
      > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
      > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
      >
      > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
      > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
      > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
      > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
      > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
      > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
      > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
      >
      > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
      >
      > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
      > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
      > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
      > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
      > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
      > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
      > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
      > book would mention this many and then the
      > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
      > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
      > haste, and will have to go back & check the
      > names of the planes for accuracy.)
      >
      > In the next chapter following that one (THE
      > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
      > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
      > of the chapter:
      >
      > p. 197
      >
      > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
      > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
      > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
      > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
      > you will then know for yourself. [....]
      >
      > p. 199
      >
      > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
      > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
      > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
      > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
      > creations throughout the seven spheres."
      >
      > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
      > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
      > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
      > other time mentions seven spheres.
      >
      > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
      > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
      > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
      > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
      >
      > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
      > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
      > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
      > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
      > a total of only seven planets.
      >
      > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
      > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
      > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
      > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
      > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
      > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
      > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
      > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
      > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
      > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
      > was already known to history? How much was in
      > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
      > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
      > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
      > how much of the material had actually come direct
      > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
      > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
      >
      > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
      > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
      > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
      > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
      >
      > Etznab
      >
      >
      > Hello Etznab,
      >
      > You make some good points and have
      >
      > brought up more information to point
      >
      > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
      >
      > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
      >
      > and D.W.T.M. later.
      >
      >
      > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
      >
      > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
      >
      > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
      >
      > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
      >
      > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
      >
      > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
      >
      > overlook this point. And, look at how
      >
      > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
      >
      > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
      >
      > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
      >
      > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
      >
      > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
      >
      > under Klemp's rule(s)!
      >
      >
      > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
      >
      > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
      >
      > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
      >
      > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
      >
      > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
      >
      > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
      >
      > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
      >
      > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
      >
      > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
      >
      > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
      >
      > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
      >
      > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
      >
      > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
      >
      > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
      >
      > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
      >
      > Plane!
      >
      > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
      >
      > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
      >
      > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
      >
      > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
      >
      > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
      >
      > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
      >


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