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4728Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

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  • Jason Mc Dermott
    Jun 26, 2009
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      Dear Etznab

       Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,its a fictional piece based on the well known metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson features it as part of his hypothesis as us having multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher Consciousness Society website. You'll find them by clicking on the classes button and then the audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to them in order as not to get confused of what's being discussed and explained by Johnson,the particular section of Over soul seven and Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

      g'luk

      Jay


      From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 15:03:04
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

      Dear Etznab

      I my self am doing similar in studying back over the shariyat's to see how much of these two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving me a starting point in finding  Twitchell's sources. But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new at this stage,everyone but those in denial know he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever. Then of course there are the number of books written on twitchell and if you can get your hands on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of the story on this enigma of a man: The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                 The Rosetta stone of God by James Davis
                  Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
      The ever noctorious David Lane also ,maybe though the above books have helped move on from some of his theories and material,but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,just type his name in and you'll find it.

      Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back on focus for one's connection with God. You can join the Higher Consciousness Society website he has set up for free and down load some audio's of talks with others..they' re quite good.

      Also this may be worth checking out,this was one of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck, its on you tube the link is http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
      As you'll come to realise,if you visit her site the girl in it is married to an another 'eck master' apparently based on Twitchells original teachings. the website is http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established when kicked out of Eck.

       Also as you may know there are a few other off shoots claiming to be the Godman,even one..actually can't remember him.. should have book marked his site on my discoverys,but anyway..he has his own line of past masters. Another guy who will mail you intro material is Master Path by Sri Gary Olsen.

      I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage,I myself haven't the cash to purchase any of the books I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good perspective of where I may be going next. What really makes his insights for us all stand out are two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2 in connection with this is  the Indian spiritual master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that all the time his students said he was with them on the inner planes and how they would praise him for his place in their spiritual development, he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it nor  did he have any knowledge of being with the students on the inner planes...I mean come on how profound is this.

      Though we are on the intellectual level only with all this talk..it is basic and important though. I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old. I've practised the HU chant all this time and studied my dreams hard as well as the practice of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied or ignored the possible science of the brain that maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd initiate always told it was my choice,though I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.

      I am now at a period of intense reading,discovering and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)

      Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
      http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html

      hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon

      Jay




      From: "etznab@aol. com" <etznab@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
      Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 4:04:59
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

      Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

      Prometheus,

      No. I haven't.

      The reference to number seven interests me.
      Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
      mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
      Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
      me the impression of eight basic planes, where
      the eighth (and highest) was considered above
      them all. Like, something on another level, so
      to speak. Examples:

      p. 156

      "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
      of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
      of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
      all!"

      [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
      during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
      not sure. That quote is on the second page
      of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
      Question: Why does he mention seven?]

      For some reason, I'm under the impression
      that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
      a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
      8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
      the same book.

      p. 195

      "When I want to show the world my highest
      grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
      This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
      sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
      is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
      final for he represents my power in the seven
      lower worlds."

      [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
      I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

      Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
      my earlier post. The being supposed to have
      spoken those words was either Anami, or the
      SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
      have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
      story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
      Consider the last seven words in that quote:

      ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

      I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
      Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
      (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
      (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
      Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
      I suspect the earlier models had around eight
      planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
      book would mention this many and then the
      1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
      a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
      haste, and will have to go back & check the
      names of the planes for accuracy.)

      In the next chapter following that one (THE
      SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
      go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
      of the chapter:

      p. 197

      Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
      you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
      into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
      of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
      you will then know for yourself. [....]

      p. 199

      "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
      speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
      among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
      serve to take the message of the divine to all my
      creations throughout the seven spheres."

      Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
      by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
      once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
      other time mentions seven spheres.

      It was the context from those chapters that gave me
      the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
      etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
      place "above" them and making a total of eight.

      I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
      Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
      be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
      during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
      a total of only seven planets.

      As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
      starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
      notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
      when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
      and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
      1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
      take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
      the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
      (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
      materials. Like, how much of it was material that
      was already known to history? How much was in
      the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
      How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
      How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
      how much of the material had actually come direct
      from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
      (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

      This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
      so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
      history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
      other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

      Etznab

      -----Original Message-----
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
      Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
      "Body"

      Hello Etznab,

      You make some good points and have

      brought up more information to point

      out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

      I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

      and D.W.T.M. later.

      It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

      Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

      Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

      Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

      their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

      "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

      overlook this point. And, look at how

      many years Klemp has instructed EKists

      to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

      singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

      is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
      D

      Chakra is still being used after 28 years

      under Klemp's rule(s)!

      BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

      actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

      is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

      Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

      become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

      or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

      being that same Over-Soul which, then,

      becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

      by-pass the hierarchy and can become

      "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

      on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

      you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

      Prometheus

      p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

      LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

      where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

      resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

      Plane!

      Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

      thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

      Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

      with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

      Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

      [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

      Etznab wrote:

      I would like to know the difference between

      Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

      the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

      about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

      The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

      a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
      D

      Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

      This is something I've been contemplating

      for some time: What is different with the two

      types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

      about this subject).

      There's another thing on this subject, and it

      has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

      I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

      body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

      Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

      any of the other lower world bodies where there

      are many different ones - including the physical

      body.

      So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

      Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

      only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

      Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

      Something like another dimension.

      Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

      and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

      the Living Eck Master become so important?

      Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

      to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

      the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

      understanding is that the astral body is limited

      to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

      transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

      to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

      Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

      it reads like that was his first vis
      it. However, in

      the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

      Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

      already!

      ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

      A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

      Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

      to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

      D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

      T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

      getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

      Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

      Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

      the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

      only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

      quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

      Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

      Fang account and the year 1957.

      ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

      I wonder, were those two different books, the

      two different manuscripts, about the same basic

      experience?

      BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

      online version of The Path of the Masters? by

      Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

      entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

      Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

      Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

      on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

      Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

      A Talk With Rami Nuri.

      I've
      decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

      books and read from the beginning, looking at

      how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

      the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

      this point in time. I'm discovering things that

      had escaped me up until now.

      Etznab

      HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

      Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

      is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

      chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

      or contemplate upon his Physical image via

      his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

      of an Astral image. How is this the same as

      meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

      Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

      with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

      than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

      Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

      (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

      of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

      teach and other "believers" experience!

      Prometheus

      Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

      Hello All,

      It was bad enough that HK sold

      his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

      portrait. Now he's selling the "True

      Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
      0D

      But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

      portrait accurately? No, not quite!

      The truth has (once again) been

      embellished and distorted! Klemp,

      no doubt, likes this rendition because

      it makes him appear younger. Thus,

      this drawing looks more "sketch"

      like than portrait like!

      What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

      a more modern, shaved look, and

      does not appear as thin as it really

      is (the inside portion of his ear is

      different too).

      When looking at the front cover photo,

      of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

      World of ECKankar" we can see that

      Klemp parts his hair on the side and

      does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

      makes Klemp look younger.

      The question ECKists should be asking is,

      Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

      are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

      followers all want to "imagine" that they look

      "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

      Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

      rather than having an Astral Plane image!

      I think it's funny that Klemp names

      this new portrait "True Friend." Would

      a "true friend" say such nasty
      and mean

      things to you? These RESAs and other

      H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

      Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

      now they see that there are strings

      attached and that it's a one-way friend-

      ship.

      BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

      you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

      himself, or give it to you... free of

      charge? Hmmmmmm.

      On another note, I saw how Klemp can

      make even more money from his image.

      HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

      as though he has a big hole running

      through his head. So, maybe HK could

      have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

      The chain would go through his ears!

      He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

      $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

      will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

      he does with portraits, books, etc.

      Prometheus


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