Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
No. I haven't.
The reference to number seven interests me.
Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
me the impression of eight basic planes, where
the eighth (and highest) was considered above
them all. Like, something on another level, so
to speak. Examples:
"The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
[I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
not sure. That quote is on the second page
of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
Question: Why does he mention seven?]
For some reason, I'm under the impression
that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
the same book.
"When I want to show the world my highest
grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
final for he represents my power in the seven
[That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
my earlier post. The being supposed to have
spoken those words was either Anami, or the
SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
Consider the last seven words in that quote:
".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
(1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
(5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
I suspect the earlier models had around eight
planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
book would mention this many and then the
1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
haste, and will have to go back & check the
names of the planes for accuracy.)
In the next chapter following that one (THE
SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
of the chapter:
Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
you will then know for yourself. [....]
"Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
serve to take the message of the divine to all my
creations throughout the seven spheres."
Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
other time mentions seven spheres.
It was the context from those chapters that gave me
the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
place "above" them and making a total of eight.
I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
a total of only seven planets.
As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
(were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
materials. Like, how much of it was material that
was already known to history? How much was in
the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
how much of the material had actually come direct
from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
(inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
You make some good points and have
brought up more information to point
out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
and D.W.T.M. later.
It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
"light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
overlook this point. And, look at how
many years Klemp has instructed EKists
to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
Chakra is still being used after 28 years
under Klemp's rule(s)!
BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
being that same Over-Soul which, then,
becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
by-pass the hierarchy and can become
"One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
[The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
I would like to know the difference between
Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
This is something I've been contemplating
for some time: What is different with the two
types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
about this subject).
There's another thing on this subject, and it
has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
any of the other lower world bodies where there
are many different ones - including the physical
So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
Something like another dimension.
Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
the Living Eck Master become so important?
Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
understanding is that the astral body is limited
to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
it reads like that was his first vis
it. However, in
the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
Fang account and the year 1957.
???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
I wonder, were those two different books, the
two different manuscripts, about the same basic
BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
online version of The Path of the Masters? by
Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
A Talk With Rami Nuri.
decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
books and read from the beginning, looking at
how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
this point in time. I'm discovering things that
had escaped me up until now.
HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
or contemplate upon his Physical image via
his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
of an Astral image. How is this the same as
meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
(including "experiences with EK Masters") is
of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
teach and other "believers" experience!
Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
It was bad enough that HK sold
his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
portrait. Now he's selling the "True
Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
portrait accurately? No, not quite!
The truth has (once again) been
embellished and distorted! Klemp,
no doubt, likes this rendition because
it makes him appear younger. Thus,
this drawing looks more "sketch"
like than portrait like!
What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
a more modern, shaved look, and
does not appear as thin as it really
is (the inside portion of his ear is
When looking at the front cover photo,
of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
World of ECKankar" we can see that
Klemp parts his hair on the side and
does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
makes Klemp look younger.
The question ECKists should be asking is,
Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
followers all want to "imagine" that they look
"youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
rather than having an Astral Plane image!
I think it's funny that Klemp names
this new portrait "True Friend." Would
a "true friend" say such nasty
things to you? These RESAs and other
H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
now they see that there are strings
attached and that it's a one-way friend-
BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
himself, or give it to you... free of
On another note, I saw how Klemp can
make even more money from his image.
HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
as though he has a big hole running
through his head. So, maybe HK could
have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
The chain would go through his ears!
He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
$500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
he does with portraits, books, etc.