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4022Jesus According to ECK: Master or Second Initiate?

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  • prometheus_973
    Oct 29, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Sharon,
      Thanks again for posting this. Klemp's
      Mahanta consciousness is that of a pebble!
      After all, if a mythological God like Jupiter
      can have the Mahanta Consciousness why
      can't a rock!

      BTW-I wonder if the ECKists attending
      HK's 2008 EWWS talk (or listening to the
      Internet Broadcast) thought that their money
      was well spent?

      Did Klemp say anything new or enlightening?
      Did he quote PT's Shariyat? Did he talk about
      the differences of apples? On what level of
      Consciousness was the talk on? It's never very
      high is it!

      Of course, ECKies will rationalize and fill-in
      the blanks (and there were a lot of blanks)!
      They will fall asleep and say they got it on
      the "inner." Or, the talk they "heard" was
      on such a "higher" plane level that others
      (of a lower consciousness) couldn't hear or
      understand it.

      Therefore, there was more than "one" talk
      being sent out through the ethers. Klemp's
      silly words and hesitations were actually a
      "code." A certain string of words spoken
      in a certain cadence triggers subliminal
      images which take the listener into imaginary
      realms of the mind. Actually, I made that up!
      Still, it could be true for those who are as
      insane as Klemp.

      But, it's obvious that ECKists need their beliefs
      just as any other religious follower does.
      I just can't understand why those ECKists who
      claim to have so much insight can't recognize
      the flaws. Is it fear or ego or both that get in
      the way of sane, rational, critical thinking?

      Prometheus



      Sharon Wrote:
      Here's some information I just found while
      going thru some old printouts. Hope it helps!!

      *************************************
      From: catlist@... (Catalyst)
      Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar
      Subject: The Eck Master Jesus
      Date: 12 Dec 2001

      One of the puzzles Paul Twitchell and ECKANKAR have left us over
      the years is how to relate to Jesus. Sometimes Jesus is dismissed as
      a mere Kal savior. At other times it is claimed he was an ECK initiate.
      And in other places it is even written that he was an Eck Master.
      Harold says Jesus was his boyhood pal in ancient Judea. In one place
      Paul says Jesus studied for several years under an Eck Master named
      Zadok among the Essenses in Judea. In another he says Jesus studied
      under the Eck Master Fubbi Quantz in Tibet for three years.

      Nowadays in ECKANKAR Jesus is just sort of out there somewhere,
      a teacher but not an Eck Master – a teacher who is said to
      occasionally send his students to one of the Eck Masters because
      he himself can take them no further on their spiritual journey.
      What is wrong with this picture?

      First a few quotes from Paul Twitchell about Jesus. In his book
      The Key to ECKANKAR (1968 edition, page 42) Paul puts the following
      words into the mouth of Rebazar Tarzs - - - I should tell you at
      this point that Christ was one of the great ECK Masters, for he
      received his training with the Essenes. This mystical group of masters
      was trained as Eck teachers, and acted as part of the mystery school
      of wisdom for the purpose of spreading the truth of the Sugmad.
      Though some people make a distinction between Christ (a state of
      consciousness) and Jesus (a man), Paul is obviously writing here
      about Jesus, because he is referring to a man who was trained by
      the Essenes.

      The quote from The Key to Eckankar about Jesus being an Eck
      master is consistent with a passage in the Eckankar Bible, the
      Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book One, where Paul wrote that Jesus was the
      Mahanta Consciousness as it appeared to the Christians. (page 35
      in the 1987 edition) It is generally accepted in Eckankar that the
      Mahanta consciousness appears to people through the form of the
      Living Eck Master. So one of these quotes states explicitly that
      Christ was an Eck master, and one implies he was.

      That Jesus studied under an Eck Master named Zadok is written in
      The Spiritual Notebook, 1971 edition, page 192. There Paul writes -
      - Zadok was living, at the time of his ECK Mastership, in the country
      of Judea, north of Jerusalem. His work was with a small group of
      followers who had broken with the Essenes. Zadok saw the man named
      Jesus, talked with him on several occasions, and knew his purpose in
      this world. He also knew that their missions did not cross with each
      other after Jesus left the ECK group, with whom he studied for some
      time under the great Zadok. The ECK Master gave Jesus the basic
      fundamentals of ECKANKAR, who used them in his own teachings.
      And what about Jesus in Tibet? This comes from Letters to a Chela
      chapter 3 where Paul writes - - - His father Joseph was an Aryan and
      his mother Jewish. Joseph was a member of the Essenes. His (Jesus)
      name was Yahevau, and he did not receive the name of Jesus until
      he was initiated by the ECK Master Fubbi Quantz, at the Katsupari
      Monastery in northern Tibet. (This is odd, because one is supposed
      to get a spiritual name in Eck only when he gets the Ninth initiation).

      This was the last place he studied before returning to the world to
      preach his message. He spent three years at the Monastery where
      he studied ECK and received the second initiation. Jesus never initiated
      anyone during his life on earth. He never had the power to do this.
      The fact that Jesus rose from the dead and visited among his
      followers, and spent 72 days teaching his people on earth is hardly
      anything more than what any good ECKist can do. (Whoa! Does Paul
      like to stretch the truth a little?) He will never return for he has been
      working on the fourth plane for all these centuries and is likely
      never to leave because this is where he has been assigned by the
      spiritual hierarchy for time unlimited.

      When Paul leaves such a convoluted mess of writings on a specific
      subject (which he does frequently), what is one to conclude? In this
      case I have come up with four theories. I would be interested which
      theory you various readers believe to be the most probable. Or maybe
      someone can think up a better theory than any of them. Here they are.

      *THEORY 1. Jesus is not now, nor has he ever been an Eck initiate
      anywhere outside of the imagination of Paul. Despite the quotes above,
      this case can actually be made within the belief system of Eckankar.
      How? If Jesus was an Eck Initiate under Zadok two thousand years ago,
      he would have (almost certainly) gone on to become an Eck Master by
      now. Paul and Harold tell us that once you get that second initiation
      there is no turning back – you are an Eckist until you reach
      mastership. Even if you try to quit you will only come back in another
      life to continue on. So if Jesus really got initiated by Fubbi Quantz,
      he should be an Eck master now.

      On the other hand, if Jesus was already an Eck Master in ancient
      times, as Paul has Rebazar telling us above, then he would still be
      one. In either case, he should be an Eck Master today. Yet everywhere
      else in the Eckankar writings, neither Paul nor Harold ever suggests
      or hints in any way that Jesus is an Eck Master. This would be a very
      odd silence if Jesus were in fact an Eck master, would it not?

      Therefore, despite the lip service Paul gave in places to Jesus being
      an Eck Master and / or an Eck initiate, there is no follow through to
      suggest he or Harold actually believe it. Ergo, Jesus has never been
      an Eck initiate.

      *THEORY 2. Jesus studied first under Zadok for a time, then
      traveled to Tibet and studied under Fubbi Quantz for three years
      where he got his second initiation. After he left Tibet and returned
      to his public mission in Judea, he continued to get inner initiations
      from Fubbi or Zadok, achieving Eck mastership in that lifetime before
      he was killed. This would pull together the above quotes by Paul into
      one piece of a coherent narrative. But this coherence breaks down
      in the overall context of the Eckankar writings. It fails to explain
      why Jesus is so often portrayed by Paul and Harold as a Kal savior
      and lower order teacher. If Theory 2 is correct Jesus should be a
      strong Eck master figure in modern Eckankar. And he is not. So
      this theory has several very weak points.

      *THEORY 3. The confusing and conflicting writings about Jesus are
      evidence that Paul was just a liar with a poor memory. I do not know
      if there is strong evidence that Paul had a weak memory. Maybe he
      did. There is certainly evidence he was a liar. Or if it rests easier
      on your ears, that he was a story teller.

      *THEORY 4. The conflicting writings on Jesus are evidence that
      Paul simply shifted his position about Jesus for his own purposes,
      changing it from page to page, and from book to book, with a casual
      disregard for consistency. I think this fits in well with the Doug
      Marmon theory of Paul – that he likes to show readers all
      points of view about a subject without being picky about facts and
      consistency. Or put another way, if Theory 3 suggests Paul was
      a liar with a poor memory, Theory 4 eliminates the supposition that
      he had a poor memory, and just leaves him a liar.

      If we are to believe Doug, he lies for noble reasons. (Oops. I
      slipped into the Age of Criticism there. Let me get back to proper
      dialog.) What I meant is that if we are to believe Doug, Paul is not
      lying, he is showing us many points of view from many states of
      consciousness. On the other hand, if we are to side with the Eckankar
      critics, Paul lies to deceive. Whatever his motive for frequently
      shifting his position on Jesus, I think this theory has more strength
      than Theory 3 because it is unlikely that Paul would be forgetful
      about whether Jesus was or was not an Eck master.

      *CONCLUSION. It looks to me like Theory 1 and Theory 4 in
      combination are the most probable. I would give them about
      a 75 percent chance of being the true explanation. (I just made
      up that statistic. If you challenge me I will back away from it. <g>)
      Though I dealt with the subject of Jesus in this posting, I have
      found that the problem it illustrates is pandemic in the writings
      of Paul Twitchell. To borrow from a visual in Doug Marmons book,
      Paul created a sort of scarecrow out of patches of straw and odd
      bits of cloth and clothing. Doug was trying to say in his book that
      this is precisely what Paul did NOT do. But to me it is evident all
      over his writings that they are a patchwork of mismatched bits and
      pieces of ideas poorly quilted together in an effort to look like
      a unified belief system. Of course there is a certain overall feel
      to the teachings. No matter where he got his bits of cloth, he is
      still the quilt maker. He left his stamp by choosing what to leave
      in and what to leave out.
      **********************************

      From: jerre...@... (Joe)
      Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar
      Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus
      Date: 13 Dec 2001


      The big question: who was Paul and what was he trying
      to do with Eckankar...

      Having long considered these two questions in the context
      of the whole of Paulji's writings, I conclude that Paulji was
      disturbed in a way that I'm not sure I can classify.

      Taking the example you've given us here, I can't really say
      what Paulji did with Jesus is the work of a liar, or a sloppy
      promoter, or a con-artist. There's another element there
      very hard to define.

      But...I think that so often, when we read Paulji on other
      spiritual teachers, we are actually reading him:

      Talking about himself.

      For example, here he is refering to Jesus:

      "He spent three years at the Monastery where he studied
      ECK and received the second initiation. Jesus never initiated
      anyone during his life on earth. He never had the power to
      do this."

      Given that Paulji lived a few years in a Monastery in MD,
      and received the one initiation from Kirpal Singh, and was
      never granted permission by Singh or any other spiritual
      teacher to initiate, I believe Paulji was speaking from his
      own insecurity here.

      We see him talking about himself again, I believe, in the
      discourses when he lashes out at "Indian Gurus" whom he
      refers to as "indescribably filthy," and who "sell spiritual
      goods like pots and pans." The Indian gurus Paulji was
      iniitated by, Premananda and Kirpal Singh, didn't charge
      for their teachings. Paulji did, and hence his projected anger.

      What relationship did Paulji have with Christianity? We don't
      exactly know how he felt about his Christian upbringing.
      We do know, however, that AFTER he wrote THE TIGER'S
      FANG he tried to join the Catholic Church but was rejected.

      I suspect that like many Eckists (and this is no accident)
      Paulji did not have a comfortable relationship with the
      religion of his upbringing. I also think this accounts for
      what to me is the very worst and most deviant aspect
      of his eck writings: His dire warnings to those who join
      eckankar but decided to leave after initiation.

      Here again I think Paulji's "eck warnings" spring from
      his unresolved issues with Christianity -- and also Kirpal
      Singh. Paulji is on tape asking Singh, 3x, "what happens
      to an initiate who betrays his Master"?

      So in sum, perhaps Paulji felt about Jesus the way
      he felt about himself.


      **********************************
      Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus
      From: "Sharon2000" <brighttigr...@...>
      Date: 21 Dec 2001
      Organization: Eckankar Sucks
      Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar,alt.eckankar

      jerre...@... (Joe) wrote:
      The big question: who was Paul and what was
      he trying to do with Eckankar...
      >
      Having long considered these two questions
      in the context of the whole of Paulji's writings,
      I conclude that Paulji was disturbed in a way
      that I'm not sure I can classify.
      >
      Taking the example you've given us here,
      I can't really say what Paulji did with Jesus
      is the work of a liar, or a sloppy promoter,
      or a con-artist. There's another element there
      very hard to define.
      >
      But...I think that so often, when we read
      Paulji on other spiritual teachers, we are
      actually reading him, Talking about himself.
      >
      For example, here he is refering to Jesus:
      >
      "He spent three years at the Monastery
      where he studied ECK and received the
      second initiation. Jesus never initiated
      anyone during his life on earth. He never
      had the power to do this."

      Given that Paulji lived a few years in a
      Monastery in MD, and received the one
      initiation from Kirpal Singh, and was never
      granted permission by Singh or any other
      spiritual teacher to initiate, I believe Paulji
      was speaking from his own insecurity here.
      >
      We see him talking about himself again,
      I believe, in the discourses when he lashes
      out at "Indian Gurus" whom he refers to as
      "indescribably filthy," and who "sell spiritual
      goods like pots and pans." The Indian gurus
      Paulji was iniitated by, Premananda and Kirpal
      Singh, didn't charge for their teachings. Paulji
      did, and hence his projected anger.
      >
      What relationship did Paulji have with Christianity?
      We don't exactly know how he felt about his
      Christian upbringing. We do know, however,
      that AFTER he wrote THE TIGER'S FANG he tried
      to join the Catholic Church but was rejected.
      >
      I suspect that like many Eckists (and this is
      no accident) Paulji did not have a comfortable
      relationship with the religion of his upbringing.
      I also think this accounts for what to me is the
      very worst and most deviant aspect of his eck
      writings: His dire warnings to those who join
      eckankar but decided to leave after initiation.
      >
      Here again I think Paulji's "eck warnings" spring
      from his unresolved issues with Christianity --
      and also Kirpal Singh. Paulji is on tape asking
      Singh, 3x, "what happens to an initiate who betrays
      his Master"?
      >
      So in sum, perhaps Paulji felt about Jesus the
      way he felt about himself.
      ********

      You made some *very* good observations here,
      Joe! So much of Twitch's "writings", well...all those
      years I was a member, I just didn't feel quite
      comfortable with him. It bothered me, of course.
      I knew my feelings weren't "properly ecky".

      Does anyone know what denomination Twitch
      was raised in? It definitely wasn't Catholic...the
      eckversion of Twitch's wanting to join Catholicism
      was that he was refused because he was divorced.
      That's not true...I checked. A divorce prior to becoming
      Catholic doesn't count. Twitch wanted to become
      Catholic because he was having an affair with a
      Catholic woman (ask Doug Marman about this one!
      <ggg> You won't get an honest answer, though.)
      and he wanted to marry her. And he was willing to
      be a phony & join the Catholic Church just to get
      a woman.

      Anyway...Twitch also wrote some *very* unflattering
      things about Jesus in Letters to a Chela, but I just
      popped over to Delphi and oh horrors, not all of that
      chapter is there! And there's no note that says "message
      truncated" with an option to click & see the whole thing...
      I have to go back over the whole site and check it out...
      but you know, I haven't looked at LC for awhile. Skimming
      here and there, well...Twitch is not only pushing his cultic
      recruiting, but also doing as much as possible to
      destroy any "positive" feelings about any other religions
      (which he admitted to wanting to destroy) and I think
      what he writes about Jesus shows this. He was deliberately
      trying to paint a *very* unpleasant picture of him!!! And
      isn't it sort of hilarious how in Twitch's "Holey
      Scriptures" he claimed to be born of a virgin? <giggle>

      Anyway...here's an excerpt I found at Google...
      Twitch on Jesus!

      From "Letters to a Chela" by Paul Twitchell:

      "Jesus is dead whether anyone believes this or not.
      He died some 2000 years ago and has not been with
      this world since. This is the saddest aspect of Christian
      religious history, that he had to disappear to give way
      to a clerical, priestly image. Christianity as a historic
      religion was not founded by Jesus, but by an educated
      Jew named Paul, who was adopted by the mother church
      as St. Paul. However, Jesus is now the figurement of
      the traditional writings, which have been edited through
      the centuries by various writers mainly in the Catholic
      and Protestant churches."

      (However, Twitch claimed that St. Paul was a member
      of the secret order of the ECK Masters in his "secret
      discourses," Precepts of Eckankar, #5....the early versions,
      that is. By the time *I* got this set of discourses, Klemp
      had edited it out. Klemp's done LOTS of editing in the
      cult's brief history.)


      "However, nothing new can be added about this man
      who made claims, according to his biographers, that
      he was the Son of Man and later as his biographers
      tried to establish as God who had manifested himself;
      note the word "himself," which is an expression of the
      lower worlds. The true God, the SUGMAD, is always
      designated as IT which has no gender. Therefore we
      see him as really a son of Kal Niranjan who is king
      of the lower worlds who expresses himself in the male
      gender..."

      ("...the Supreme Deity, the Sugmad Himself."
      Eckankar, the Secret Way, 1967. "He will not
      require that you love Him as a great soul..."
      "His love...He feeds me..." The Tiger's Fang, 1967)


      Those priests and clergy who preach the word
      of Jesus and the God of Christianity is thereby
      only speaking in the terms of institutional
      religion, that of the educated. They preach
      from the Christian Bible, as the authority for
      their case, based upon the words of their God.
      Therefore we find that this is a false teaching
      for the Bible is accepted as being the Guru, or
      the Master which gives the words which those
      Biblical writers have put into the mouth of a
      man who lived 2,000 years ago and never
      said anything close to what his followers claim
      down through the ages."


      ("When the sacred teachings of the ECK have
      been put into printed books, such as the SHARIYAT-
      KI-SUGMAD, all ECK chelas can go forth and by
      using it as reference can give all the holy scriptures
      of it to the world. There is none greater than this
      magnificent scripture and we as the chelas of ECK
      must use it as the source book, the living Bible of
      our beliefs and faith." Twitch, Illuminated Way Letters,
      page 216 )


      "It's said that Christians get to heaven simply
      with faith and an act of grace. This was the basic
      teachings which Jesus taught becuse he knew
      that it would appeal to all people on a general
      basis. Also the denial of this world would bring
      poor and middle clss into his teachings."

      (Good grief, this is EXACTLY the strategy that
      twitch used when setting up his cult. Except...
      It's faith in the LEM, and initiation & continued
      membership in the cult. Twitch, and now Klemp,
      are quite open about telling their "missionaries"
      to be sure to tell people what will appeal to them...)

      "His father Joseph was an Aryan and his mother
      Jewish. Joseph was a member of the Essenes,
      a secret society which flourished in those times.
      The biblical story of the immaculate conception
      is not to be taken too seriously, that Jesus was
      born of the Holy Ghost and from a Virgin.
      This was invented to fit into the theology which
      at the time was formulated for saviour-gods."

      (tee-hee. Twitch in his pseudo-Bible: "The ECK
      enters into the womb of a virgin, the queen of
      heaven, who has submitted to the true spirit of
      the universe. The consciousness of the Mahanta
      state (the spiritual form of the human Eckankar
      leader) is planted as the seed, and carefully
      nurtured in the womb. When the embodiment
      of flesh is brought into this world, a man-child
      is born. It starts its unfoldment over a period
      of years until the state of perfection is reached,
      in adulthood. Then the chosen one learns
      that he is the Living ECK Master of his times."
      SKS 1, pg. 111-112, 2nd ed., 10th printing, 1987)

      ". . .His name was Yahevau, and he did not receive
      the name of Jesus until he was initiated by the
      ECK Master Fubbi Quantz, at the Katsupari
      Monastery in northern Tibet. This was the last
      place where he studied before returning to the
      world to preach his message. He had been in Egypt,
      Palestine, Persia, and India studying under various
      teachers and entering into the mystery schools
      to learn about them. He spent three years at the
      Katsupari Monastery where he studied ECK and
      received the second initiation. He believed then
      this was the moment to give his message to the
      world...."

      (I'll have to check up on Fubbi. In The Tiger's Fang,
      Twitch says that Fubbi was the LEM in 10th century
      Persia...make up your mind, Twitch!!)

      "The dust, grime, and poverty of that age was
      appalling, and disease rampant...Jesus was
      a marked man long before Judas got any idea
      about betraying him.

      He was a small slender man, of dark complexion,
      and wore a long robe characteristic of his times.
      His hair was short because of the heat and his beard,
      like his hair, was brown, but short also. The insects
      and lice were too abundant to wear long hair and
      beards. He was about five feet, one inch tall, dark
      eyes and wore sandals most of the time because of
      the earth ws too hot to tread barefooted. His face
      was broad, and full jowled.The pictures which we
      see of him today are an artist's concept, painted by
      a German during the 16th century."

      (Hmmmm....just a thought...I seem to remember,
      Giotto painted some much earlier things...probably
      others did...maybe twitch is referring to the blue-
      eyes one you see in many churches...unimportant,
      anyway...)

      "Of course he wore a hood which kept the burning
      sun from cracking the skin of his scalp. The title
      Christ was given to him long after his death, the
      spiritual name Jesus was bestowed upon him by
      Fubbi Quantz, and his messge to the world was
      a simplified version of ECKANKAR, which was mangled
      by his followers and Paul the founder of Christianity.
      He never meant for his own teachings to go beyond
      his times because he realized that the ECK Masters
      had their own plans for the world's spiritual unfoldment.
      He knew that man had not even progressed to the
      stage of astral development, and was not ready for
      anything which went beyond this in his simple nature.

      Jesus was shrewd and the Romans watching him
      were foiled for three years; they had to wait until
      the proper time when one of his disciples showed
      a weakness. It turned out to be Judas who was the
      treasurer of his little band..."

      Later in Chapter 3 of LC:

      "Since Christianity is only an aspect of the ECK
      there is no need of viewing it or any other religion
      with awe. Therefore we must look upon each with
      a sympathetic view that every groups is respectively
      struggling to find the Godhead. Since every ECKist
      knows that the Godhead is that which is available
      only through the path of ECK then he must be warm,
      sympathetic, and helpful to those in religions, occultism
      and philosophies for they are all the subordinates
      of ECKANKAR..."

      __________________________________

      Well...I'll have to check out LC at Delphi to make
      sure they're all complete...I think I posted them
      all here at a.r.e. first, I know I've got them all on
      the hard drive of a computer I don't have hooked
      up right now...

      Bye!

      Ho Ho Hugs!

      Sharon

      --
      FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT ECKANKAR, SEE:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/links



      ***************************************
      Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar, alt.eckankar
      From: ran1...@... (Troll)
      Date: 21 Dec 2001
      Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus


      Greetings Sharon and Merry Xmass !
      If memory serves, Dr.Lane discovered that
      Paul Twitchell was raised in a fundamentalist
      religion, the Church of Christ. Paul Iverlet,
      Twitch's brother-in-law, were devout Christians.
      That Paul's Dad, John (I think), if he were still
      living would have beat the hell out of Paul Twitchell
      for the lies Paul Twitchell told about his family in
      Twitch's book, 'In My Soul I Am Free'.

      I think one of the links at
      http://www.geocities.com/eckcult
      is where the account can be found.
      Troll