4022Jesus According to ECK: Master or Second Initiate?
- Oct 29, 2008Hi Sharon,
Thanks again for posting this. Klemp's
Mahanta consciousness is that of a pebble!
After all, if a mythological God like Jupiter
can have the Mahanta Consciousness why
can't a rock!
BTW-I wonder if the ECKists attending
HK's 2008 EWWS talk (or listening to the
Internet Broadcast) thought that their money
was well spent?
Did Klemp say anything new or enlightening?
Did he quote PT's Shariyat? Did he talk about
the differences of apples? On what level of
Consciousness was the talk on? It's never very
high is it!
Of course, ECKies will rationalize and fill-in
the blanks (and there were a lot of blanks)!
They will fall asleep and say they got it on
the "inner." Or, the talk they "heard" was
on such a "higher" plane level that others
(of a lower consciousness) couldn't hear or
Therefore, there was more than "one" talk
being sent out through the ethers. Klemp's
silly words and hesitations were actually a
"code." A certain string of words spoken
in a certain cadence triggers subliminal
images which take the listener into imaginary
realms of the mind. Actually, I made that up!
Still, it could be true for those who are as
insane as Klemp.
But, it's obvious that ECKists need their beliefs
just as any other religious follower does.
I just can't understand why those ECKists who
claim to have so much insight can't recognize
the flaws. Is it fear or ego or both that get in
the way of sane, rational, critical thinking?
Here's some information I just found while
going thru some old printouts. Hope it helps!!
From: catlist@... (Catalyst)
Subject: The Eck Master Jesus
Date: 12 Dec 2001
One of the puzzles Paul Twitchell and ECKANKAR have left us over
the years is how to relate to Jesus. Sometimes Jesus is dismissed as
a mere Kal savior. At other times it is claimed he was an ECK initiate.
And in other places it is even written that he was an Eck Master.
Harold says Jesus was his boyhood pal in ancient Judea. In one place
Paul says Jesus studied for several years under an Eck Master named
Zadok among the Essenses in Judea. In another he says Jesus studied
under the Eck Master Fubbi Quantz in Tibet for three years.
Nowadays in ECKANKAR Jesus is just sort of out there somewhere,
a teacher but not an Eck Master – a teacher who is said to
occasionally send his students to one of the Eck Masters because
he himself can take them no further on their spiritual journey.
What is wrong with this picture?
First a few quotes from Paul Twitchell about Jesus. In his book
The Key to ECKANKAR (1968 edition, page 42) Paul puts the following
words into the mouth of Rebazar Tarzs - - - I should tell you at
this point that Christ was one of the great ECK Masters, for he
received his training with the Essenes. This mystical group of masters
was trained as Eck teachers, and acted as part of the mystery school
of wisdom for the purpose of spreading the truth of the Sugmad.
Though some people make a distinction between Christ (a state of
consciousness) and Jesus (a man), Paul is obviously writing here
about Jesus, because he is referring to a man who was trained by
The quote from The Key to Eckankar about Jesus being an Eck
master is consistent with a passage in the Eckankar Bible, the
Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book One, where Paul wrote that Jesus was the
Mahanta Consciousness as it appeared to the Christians. (page 35
in the 1987 edition) It is generally accepted in Eckankar that the
Mahanta consciousness appears to people through the form of the
Living Eck Master. So one of these quotes states explicitly that
Christ was an Eck master, and one implies he was.
That Jesus studied under an Eck Master named Zadok is written in
The Spiritual Notebook, 1971 edition, page 192. There Paul writes -
- Zadok was living, at the time of his ECK Mastership, in the country
of Judea, north of Jerusalem. His work was with a small group of
followers who had broken with the Essenes. Zadok saw the man named
Jesus, talked with him on several occasions, and knew his purpose in
this world. He also knew that their missions did not cross with each
other after Jesus left the ECK group, with whom he studied for some
time under the great Zadok. The ECK Master gave Jesus the basic
fundamentals of ECKANKAR, who used them in his own teachings.
And what about Jesus in Tibet? This comes from Letters to a Chela
chapter 3 where Paul writes - - - His father Joseph was an Aryan and
his mother Jewish. Joseph was a member of the Essenes. His (Jesus)
name was Yahevau, and he did not receive the name of Jesus until
he was initiated by the ECK Master Fubbi Quantz, at the Katsupari
Monastery in northern Tibet. (This is odd, because one is supposed
to get a spiritual name in Eck only when he gets the Ninth initiation).
This was the last place he studied before returning to the world to
preach his message. He spent three years at the Monastery where
he studied ECK and received the second initiation. Jesus never initiated
anyone during his life on earth. He never had the power to do this.
The fact that Jesus rose from the dead and visited among his
followers, and spent 72 days teaching his people on earth is hardly
anything more than what any good ECKist can do. (Whoa! Does Paul
like to stretch the truth a little?) He will never return for he has been
working on the fourth plane for all these centuries and is likely
never to leave because this is where he has been assigned by the
spiritual hierarchy for time unlimited.
When Paul leaves such a convoluted mess of writings on a specific
subject (which he does frequently), what is one to conclude? In this
case I have come up with four theories. I would be interested which
theory you various readers believe to be the most probable. Or maybe
someone can think up a better theory than any of them. Here they are.
*THEORY 1. Jesus is not now, nor has he ever been an Eck initiate
anywhere outside of the imagination of Paul. Despite the quotes above,
this case can actually be made within the belief system of Eckankar.
How? If Jesus was an Eck Initiate under Zadok two thousand years ago,
he would have (almost certainly) gone on to become an Eck Master by
now. Paul and Harold tell us that once you get that second initiation
there is no turning back – you are an Eckist until you reach
mastership. Even if you try to quit you will only come back in another
life to continue on. So if Jesus really got initiated by Fubbi Quantz,
he should be an Eck master now.
On the other hand, if Jesus was already an Eck Master in ancient
times, as Paul has Rebazar telling us above, then he would still be
one. In either case, he should be an Eck Master today. Yet everywhere
else in the Eckankar writings, neither Paul nor Harold ever suggests
or hints in any way that Jesus is an Eck Master. This would be a very
odd silence if Jesus were in fact an Eck master, would it not?
Therefore, despite the lip service Paul gave in places to Jesus being
an Eck Master and / or an Eck initiate, there is no follow through to
suggest he or Harold actually believe it. Ergo, Jesus has never been
an Eck initiate.
*THEORY 2. Jesus studied first under Zadok for a time, then
traveled to Tibet and studied under Fubbi Quantz for three years
where he got his second initiation. After he left Tibet and returned
to his public mission in Judea, he continued to get inner initiations
from Fubbi or Zadok, achieving Eck mastership in that lifetime before
he was killed. This would pull together the above quotes by Paul into
one piece of a coherent narrative. But this coherence breaks down
in the overall context of the Eckankar writings. It fails to explain
why Jesus is so often portrayed by Paul and Harold as a Kal savior
and lower order teacher. If Theory 2 is correct Jesus should be a
strong Eck master figure in modern Eckankar. And he is not. So
this theory has several very weak points.
*THEORY 3. The confusing and conflicting writings about Jesus are
evidence that Paul was just a liar with a poor memory. I do not know
if there is strong evidence that Paul had a weak memory. Maybe he
did. There is certainly evidence he was a liar. Or if it rests easier
on your ears, that he was a story teller.
*THEORY 4. The conflicting writings on Jesus are evidence that
Paul simply shifted his position about Jesus for his own purposes,
changing it from page to page, and from book to book, with a casual
disregard for consistency. I think this fits in well with the Doug
Marmon theory of Paul – that he likes to show readers all
points of view about a subject without being picky about facts and
consistency. Or put another way, if Theory 3 suggests Paul was
a liar with a poor memory, Theory 4 eliminates the supposition that
he had a poor memory, and just leaves him a liar.
If we are to believe Doug, he lies for noble reasons. (Oops. I
slipped into the Age of Criticism there. Let me get back to proper
dialog.) What I meant is that if we are to believe Doug, Paul is not
lying, he is showing us many points of view from many states of
consciousness. On the other hand, if we are to side with the Eckankar
critics, Paul lies to deceive. Whatever his motive for frequently
shifting his position on Jesus, I think this theory has more strength
than Theory 3 because it is unlikely that Paul would be forgetful
about whether Jesus was or was not an Eck master.
*CONCLUSION. It looks to me like Theory 1 and Theory 4 in
combination are the most probable. I would give them about
a 75 percent chance of being the true explanation. (I just made
up that statistic. If you challenge me I will back away from it. <g>)
Though I dealt with the subject of Jesus in this posting, I have
found that the problem it illustrates is pandemic in the writings
of Paul Twitchell. To borrow from a visual in Doug Marmons book,
Paul created a sort of scarecrow out of patches of straw and odd
bits of cloth and clothing. Doug was trying to say in his book that
this is precisely what Paul did NOT do. But to me it is evident all
over his writings that they are a patchwork of mismatched bits and
pieces of ideas poorly quilted together in an effort to look like
a unified belief system. Of course there is a certain overall feel
to the teachings. No matter where he got his bits of cloth, he is
still the quilt maker. He left his stamp by choosing what to leave
in and what to leave out.
From: jerre...@... (Joe)
Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus
Date: 13 Dec 2001
The big question: who was Paul and what was he trying
to do with Eckankar...
Having long considered these two questions in the context
of the whole of Paulji's writings, I conclude that Paulji was
disturbed in a way that I'm not sure I can classify.
Taking the example you've given us here, I can't really say
what Paulji did with Jesus is the work of a liar, or a sloppy
promoter, or a con-artist. There's another element there
very hard to define.
But...I think that so often, when we read Paulji on other
spiritual teachers, we are actually reading him:
Talking about himself.
For example, here he is refering to Jesus:
"He spent three years at the Monastery where he studied
ECK and received the second initiation. Jesus never initiated
anyone during his life on earth. He never had the power to
Given that Paulji lived a few years in a Monastery in MD,
and received the one initiation from Kirpal Singh, and was
never granted permission by Singh or any other spiritual
teacher to initiate, I believe Paulji was speaking from his
own insecurity here.
We see him talking about himself again, I believe, in the
discourses when he lashes out at "Indian Gurus" whom he
refers to as "indescribably filthy," and who "sell spiritual
goods like pots and pans." The Indian gurus Paulji was
iniitated by, Premananda and Kirpal Singh, didn't charge
for their teachings. Paulji did, and hence his projected anger.
What relationship did Paulji have with Christianity? We don't
exactly know how he felt about his Christian upbringing.
We do know, however, that AFTER he wrote THE TIGER'S
FANG he tried to join the Catholic Church but was rejected.
I suspect that like many Eckists (and this is no accident)
Paulji did not have a comfortable relationship with the
religion of his upbringing. I also think this accounts for
what to me is the very worst and most deviant aspect
of his eck writings: His dire warnings to those who join
eckankar but decided to leave after initiation.
Here again I think Paulji's "eck warnings" spring from
his unresolved issues with Christianity -- and also Kirpal
Singh. Paulji is on tape asking Singh, 3x, "what happens
to an initiate who betrays his Master"?
So in sum, perhaps Paulji felt about Jesus the way
he felt about himself.
Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus
From: "Sharon2000" <brighttigr...@...>
Date: 21 Dec 2001
Organization: Eckankar Sucks
jerre...@... (Joe) wrote:
The big question: who was Paul and what was
he trying to do with Eckankar...
>Having long considered these two questions
in the context of the whole of Paulji's writings,
I conclude that Paulji was disturbed in a way
that I'm not sure I can classify.
>Taking the example you've given us here,
I can't really say what Paulji did with Jesus
is the work of a liar, or a sloppy promoter,
or a con-artist. There's another element there
very hard to define.
>But...I think that so often, when we read
Paulji on other spiritual teachers, we are
actually reading him, Talking about himself.
>For example, here he is refering to Jesus:
>"He spent three years at the Monastery
where he studied ECK and received the
second initiation. Jesus never initiated
anyone during his life on earth. He never
had the power to do this."
Given that Paulji lived a few years in a
Monastery in MD, and received the one
initiation from Kirpal Singh, and was never
granted permission by Singh or any other
spiritual teacher to initiate, I believe Paulji
was speaking from his own insecurity here.
>We see him talking about himself again,
I believe, in the discourses when he lashes
out at "Indian Gurus" whom he refers to as
"indescribably filthy," and who "sell spiritual
goods like pots and pans." The Indian gurus
Paulji was iniitated by, Premananda and Kirpal
Singh, didn't charge for their teachings. Paulji
did, and hence his projected anger.
>What relationship did Paulji have with Christianity?
We don't exactly know how he felt about his
Christian upbringing. We do know, however,
that AFTER he wrote THE TIGER'S FANG he tried
to join the Catholic Church but was rejected.
>I suspect that like many Eckists (and this is
no accident) Paulji did not have a comfortable
relationship with the religion of his upbringing.
I also think this accounts for what to me is the
very worst and most deviant aspect of his eck
writings: His dire warnings to those who join
eckankar but decided to leave after initiation.
>Here again I think Paulji's "eck warnings" spring
from his unresolved issues with Christianity --
and also Kirpal Singh. Paulji is on tape asking
Singh, 3x, "what happens to an initiate who betrays
>So in sum, perhaps Paulji felt about Jesus the
way he felt about himself.
You made some *very* good observations here,
Joe! So much of Twitch's "writings", well...all those
years I was a member, I just didn't feel quite
comfortable with him. It bothered me, of course.
I knew my feelings weren't "properly ecky".
Does anyone know what denomination Twitch
was raised in? It definitely wasn't Catholic...the
eckversion of Twitch's wanting to join Catholicism
was that he was refused because he was divorced.
That's not true...I checked. A divorce prior to becoming
Catholic doesn't count. Twitch wanted to become
Catholic because he was having an affair with a
Catholic woman (ask Doug Marman about this one!
<ggg> You won't get an honest answer, though.)
and he wanted to marry her. And he was willing to
be a phony & join the Catholic Church just to get
Anyway...Twitch also wrote some *very* unflattering
things about Jesus in Letters to a Chela, but I just
popped over to Delphi and oh horrors, not all of that
chapter is there! And there's no note that says "message
truncated" with an option to click & see the whole thing...
I have to go back over the whole site and check it out...
but you know, I haven't looked at LC for awhile. Skimming
here and there, well...Twitch is not only pushing his cultic
recruiting, but also doing as much as possible to
destroy any "positive" feelings about any other religions
(which he admitted to wanting to destroy) and I think
what he writes about Jesus shows this. He was deliberately
trying to paint a *very* unpleasant picture of him!!! And
isn't it sort of hilarious how in Twitch's "Holey
Scriptures" he claimed to be born of a virgin? <giggle>
Anyway...here's an excerpt I found at Google...
Twitch on Jesus!
From "Letters to a Chela" by Paul Twitchell:
"Jesus is dead whether anyone believes this or not.
He died some 2000 years ago and has not been with
this world since. This is the saddest aspect of Christian
religious history, that he had to disappear to give way
to a clerical, priestly image. Christianity as a historic
religion was not founded by Jesus, but by an educated
Jew named Paul, who was adopted by the mother church
as St. Paul. However, Jesus is now the figurement of
the traditional writings, which have been edited through
the centuries by various writers mainly in the Catholic
and Protestant churches."
(However, Twitch claimed that St. Paul was a member
of the secret order of the ECK Masters in his "secret
discourses," Precepts of Eckankar, #5....the early versions,
that is. By the time *I* got this set of discourses, Klemp
had edited it out. Klemp's done LOTS of editing in the
cult's brief history.)
"However, nothing new can be added about this man
who made claims, according to his biographers, that
he was the Son of Man and later as his biographers
tried to establish as God who had manifested himself;
note the word "himself," which is an expression of the
lower worlds. The true God, the SUGMAD, is always
designated as IT which has no gender. Therefore we
see him as really a son of Kal Niranjan who is king
of the lower worlds who expresses himself in the male
("...the Supreme Deity, the Sugmad Himself."
Eckankar, the Secret Way, 1967. "He will not
require that you love Him as a great soul..."
"His love...He feeds me..." The Tiger's Fang, 1967)
Those priests and clergy who preach the word
of Jesus and the God of Christianity is thereby
only speaking in the terms of institutional
religion, that of the educated. They preach
from the Christian Bible, as the authority for
their case, based upon the words of their God.
Therefore we find that this is a false teaching
for the Bible is accepted as being the Guru, or
the Master which gives the words which those
Biblical writers have put into the mouth of a
man who lived 2,000 years ago and never
said anything close to what his followers claim
down through the ages."
("When the sacred teachings of the ECK have
been put into printed books, such as the SHARIYAT-
KI-SUGMAD, all ECK chelas can go forth and by
using it as reference can give all the holy scriptures
of it to the world. There is none greater than this
magnificent scripture and we as the chelas of ECK
must use it as the source book, the living Bible of
our beliefs and faith." Twitch, Illuminated Way Letters,
page 216 )
"It's said that Christians get to heaven simply
with faith and an act of grace. This was the basic
teachings which Jesus taught becuse he knew
that it would appeal to all people on a general
basis. Also the denial of this world would bring
poor and middle clss into his teachings."
(Good grief, this is EXACTLY the strategy that
twitch used when setting up his cult. Except...
It's faith in the LEM, and initiation & continued
membership in the cult. Twitch, and now Klemp,
are quite open about telling their "missionaries"
to be sure to tell people what will appeal to them...)
"His father Joseph was an Aryan and his mother
Jewish. Joseph was a member of the Essenes,
a secret society which flourished in those times.
The biblical story of the immaculate conception
is not to be taken too seriously, that Jesus was
born of the Holy Ghost and from a Virgin.
This was invented to fit into the theology which
at the time was formulated for saviour-gods."
(tee-hee. Twitch in his pseudo-Bible: "The ECK
enters into the womb of a virgin, the queen of
heaven, who has submitted to the true spirit of
the universe. The consciousness of the Mahanta
state (the spiritual form of the human Eckankar
leader) is planted as the seed, and carefully
nurtured in the womb. When the embodiment
of flesh is brought into this world, a man-child
is born. It starts its unfoldment over a period
of years until the state of perfection is reached,
in adulthood. Then the chosen one learns
that he is the Living ECK Master of his times."
SKS 1, pg. 111-112, 2nd ed., 10th printing, 1987)
". . .His name was Yahevau, and he did not receive
the name of Jesus until he was initiated by the
ECK Master Fubbi Quantz, at the Katsupari
Monastery in northern Tibet. This was the last
place where he studied before returning to the
world to preach his message. He had been in Egypt,
Palestine, Persia, and India studying under various
teachers and entering into the mystery schools
to learn about them. He spent three years at the
Katsupari Monastery where he studied ECK and
received the second initiation. He believed then
this was the moment to give his message to the
(I'll have to check up on Fubbi. In The Tiger's Fang,
Twitch says that Fubbi was the LEM in 10th century
Persia...make up your mind, Twitch!!)
"The dust, grime, and poverty of that age was
appalling, and disease rampant...Jesus was
a marked man long before Judas got any idea
about betraying him.
He was a small slender man, of dark complexion,
and wore a long robe characteristic of his times.
His hair was short because of the heat and his beard,
like his hair, was brown, but short also. The insects
and lice were too abundant to wear long hair and
beards. He was about five feet, one inch tall, dark
eyes and wore sandals most of the time because of
the earth ws too hot to tread barefooted. His face
was broad, and full jowled.The pictures which we
see of him today are an artist's concept, painted by
a German during the 16th century."
(Hmmmm....just a thought...I seem to remember,
Giotto painted some much earlier things...probably
others did...maybe twitch is referring to the blue-
eyes one you see in many churches...unimportant,
"Of course he wore a hood which kept the burning
sun from cracking the skin of his scalp. The title
Christ was given to him long after his death, the
spiritual name Jesus was bestowed upon him by
Fubbi Quantz, and his messge to the world was
a simplified version of ECKANKAR, which was mangled
by his followers and Paul the founder of Christianity.
He never meant for his own teachings to go beyond
his times because he realized that the ECK Masters
had their own plans for the world's spiritual unfoldment.
He knew that man had not even progressed to the
stage of astral development, and was not ready for
anything which went beyond this in his simple nature.
Jesus was shrewd and the Romans watching him
were foiled for three years; they had to wait until
the proper time when one of his disciples showed
a weakness. It turned out to be Judas who was the
treasurer of his little band..."
Later in Chapter 3 of LC:
"Since Christianity is only an aspect of the ECK
there is no need of viewing it or any other religion
with awe. Therefore we must look upon each with
a sympathetic view that every groups is respectively
struggling to find the Godhead. Since every ECKist
knows that the Godhead is that which is available
only through the path of ECK then he must be warm,
sympathetic, and helpful to those in religions, occultism
and philosophies for they are all the subordinates
Well...I'll have to check out LC at Delphi to make
sure they're all complete...I think I posted them
all here at a.r.e. first, I know I've got them all on
the hard drive of a computer I don't have hooked
up right now...
Ho Ho Hugs!
FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT ECKANKAR, SEE:
Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar, alt.eckankar
From: ran1...@... (Troll)
Date: 21 Dec 2001
Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus
Greetings Sharon and Merry Xmass !
If memory serves, Dr.Lane discovered that
Paul Twitchell was raised in a fundamentalist
religion, the Church of Christ. Paul Iverlet,
Twitch's brother-in-law, were devout Christians.
That Paul's Dad, John (I think), if he were still
living would have beat the hell out of Paul Twitchell
for the lies Paul Twitchell told about his family in
Twitch's book, 'In My Soul I Am Free'.
I think one of the links at
is where the account can be found.