2151Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: 12/2006 MYSTIC WORLD - Ask the Master #1
- Jan 15, 2007In a message dated 1/15/07 8:43:50 PM Central Standard Time, mishmisha9@... writes:
I am wondering if you have read "Those Wonderful ECK
Masters?" If not, you might find it an interesting read in
that you can see how Klemp weaves a "fine" tale of all
of the eck masters in order to trick seekers into believing
of the "real" existence of these fake eck masters.
I've looked at the book, but have not purchased or read it.
There seemed to be a lot mentioned about other people and
about their experiences with Eck Masters.
Recently I've decided to start at the beginning and read
every post on the TruthSeeker Bulletin Board. There are
at least two years of posts that I haven't read, and I really
do love to read interesting (to me) material.
If I get the time I should like to read every post on other
B.B.'s as well. In a sense I'm starting to believe that it is
not possible to truly respect a B.B. without having become
familiar with it's greater history.
I don't need a book about Eck Masters to convince me
about whether or not they are real according to what other
people say. Ultimately the Eck Masters are as real to me
as I make them out to be.
There is the saying that a Master will seldom interfere
in one's personal state of consciousness without first being
granted express permission by the individual. Something to
this effect. I agree.
About Master's being real or not, and your question to me
about something I had mentioned earlier, it was only something
that I had decided to mention. I was not directing it any one
particular individual. And after reading the earlier T.S. posts I
was reminded that people from various paths often still agree that
Masters are real (even besides what is mocked up). I wanted to
for the record make it clear that I also believe in both inner and
outer Masters (or spiritual guides) as opposed to suggesting that
they are all myths. It was not directed at any one individual, but
I saw it as necessary to state my view on this in spite of having
appeared to speculate from even an opposite angle.
You [Mish] wrote:
However our discussions on this site have been directed at the
scam of eckankar and the outright and blatant plagiarisms of PT
that are now being upheld and justified by Klemp and Co along with
eck apologists like Doug Marman who cite that the lies and plagiar-
isms are of no real consequence simply because the eck org was
built on this very foundation of lies and plagiarisms. Their defense
is that it doesn't really hurt anyone to believe this - while we critics
beg to differ.
I came across (perhaps) a sympathetic position in a T.S. response
to a post by Zoom on 8/24/2003 entitled: Paul Taught Truth Along with
Untruth and Deception. The quote from the T.S. response read:
"The problem with Eckankar today is that it does not want to admit to
or clean up the lies, fabrications and myths. No one disagrees that
Eckankar and Paul Twitchell presented many truths. It is the deception
and the lies that lead the seeker astray." TS
Mish, you responded to a section of my earlier post that contained
the word "legislate". Please don't take it personal. I wrote:
And then there is (perhaps) the personal element to consider
and whether or not we can legistate what a person's spiritual
experience ought to be. Obviously this appears to be what
we have no right to do with regard to another person and
their spiritual beliefs. Well, at least to an extent. Like, I
wouldn't say that 'human sacrifice' should be condoned
in the name of religion."
By the word "we" I include myself - along with all the rest
of humanity. This was my opinion and I was not directing it
at any one particular group, but rather to what in my opinion
I felt that all of us would do well to consider (IMO).
This was also partly to illustrate the dynamic relationship
between Church & State which I have been touching on for
the past week or more. Sorry if I was speaking in too general
a tone which could leave room for various interpretations.
I can see your point however, and the reason for a defensive
posture. At least, I can imagine how that might have come about,
even if not a defensive posture but one for seeking an illustration
to more clarity and that people reading the posts won't get the
wrong impression about who said (really) what.
If you want to see a good example of people who like to
legislate what a valid spiritual experience is, then go over
to HuChat and try to have this same discussion there.
Their parameters and belief system is very narrow on that
chat site, especially in regard to higher spiritual experiences.
OK, OK already. Maybe it was because I gave a favorable
opinion of Doug. It was an opinion. I wasn't worshipping any-
body as God by doing that. Hope you didn't think I was :)
I'm trying to see where you are coming from and it looks
like maybe there was an impression that I was addressing
all of the negatives in that previous post as if they belonged
to E.S.A. and/or Eck Detractors. I was not addressing a
BTW, you don't have to explain to me about HU-Chat. I
have been there and know about how different B.B.'s can
become. If I have the time I should like to read more of the
posts from there as well.
Thanks for your posts. I do see what you mean in part
but I just wanted to point out a few things that seem to
have led to an element of misunderstanding or interpretation.
Perhaps, it is all just comes down to individual semantics.
Understood. And I hope that I listened (read) enough about
what you actually said in order to better understand where
you were coming from.
I won't see everything in its totality as you saw it, but based
on what I know it is enough to imagine why there naturally had
to be some questions to my post.
Perhaps I should have cut and pasted more, but I gave just
some snippets instead. Enough so that people could determine
which posts both you and I were responding to.
To be honest with you Mish, here is the first quote that I came
across (years ago) that contained the words "legislate" in reference
to one's own "personal" experiences:
"Witchcraft has always been a religion of poetry, not theology.
The myths, legends, and teachings are recognized as metaphors
for 'That-Which-Cannot-Be-Told,' the absolute reality our limited
minds can never completely know. The mysteries of the absolute
can never be explained - only felt or intuited. Symbols and ritual acts
are used to trigger altered states of awareness in which insights
that go beyond words are revealed. When we speak of the 'secrets
that cannot be told,' we do not mean merely that rules prevent us
from speaking freely. We mean that the inner knowledge literally
cannot be expressed in words. It can only be conveyed by experience,
and no one can legislate what insight another person may draw from
any given experience." [Starhawk, The Spiral Dance, p. 32]
OK, so I can hear it now. "Etznab believes in Witchcraft" :) :) :)
Yeah, O.K., Whatever.
The fact is that I believed the author made a good point. It did
not matter to me what religion that they followed or if I chose to
follow the same. It was a point that I felt was a good one, and it
inspired me to use the word legislate in another earlier post.
In truth, I may not even have used the word in the very same
way that I first heard about it. However, I though it touched on
at least the same basic idea.
BTW, that quote (along with a number of other quotes from
various religions and/or persons) can be found at:
I believe there are quotes on that page from Paul Twitchell,
Julian Johnson, Ford Johnson, Doug Marman, and even the
Koran (among others). It didn't matter to me where they first
came from or who said them. What mattered was what they
said. So on that page are what i considered to be some of the
more inspiring quotes - especially (on that page) with regard
to language and communicating experiences.
P.S. I do respect the range of discussions on this B.B. and
are well aware that such "freedom of expression" might not
be tolerated in other places.
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