2150Re: 12/2006 MYSTIC WORLD - Ask the Master #1
- Jan 15, 2007Hi, Etznab!
In one of your last posts you referenced Klemp's use
of the word "legend" regarding Rebazar Tarzs in Klemp's
book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." You linked the
word "legend" to other words "supposedly" or "said to be"
in reference to RT by Twitchell in "The Key to Secret Worlds."
It seems that Klemp is uncomfortable with RT himself
from reading PT's words, and therefore, Klemp uses
"legend." In fact, I venture to say that Klemp would like
very much to make PT a legend along with all the other
eck masters. That is my opinion, right or wrong, but I'm
entitled to it. After all, this is just a discussion. : )
I am wondering if you have read "Those Wonderful ECK
Masters?" If not, you might find it an interesting read in
that you can see how Klemp weaves a "fine" tale of all
of the eck masters in order to trick seekers into believing
of the "real" existence of these fake eck masters.
Yes, Klemp even writes how those who practice the spiritual
exercises diligently can come to believe they are real.
For example on page 117, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
Klemp offers this to his readers:
"A Spiritual Exercise to Meet Rebazar Tarzs:
Relax in contemplation with eyes shut. Picture yourself
on a beach, walking in sand at the ocean's edge. The warm
waters dance about your feet, and a light ocean spray
splashes a refeshing coolness on your face. Overhead, silent
white gulls sail upon the wind.
Now breathe in as the waves gently wash toward you. Then,
on the outgoing breath, sing Rebazar (REE-bah-zahr) softly
in rhythm with the waves fleeing back to the sea. Do this
exercise twenty to thirty minutes a day. After you're skilled
at it, Rebazar or another ECK Master will come and impart
the wisdom of God to you.
At first you may feel you have met Rebazar or one of the
ECK Masters only in your imagination. But with time and
practice, you will find they are real people just like you."
Please note Klemp doesn't say they are legends here, but
that they are "real."
In each chapter in his book, Klemp offers a spiritual exercise
to assist the reader/follower in making these eck masters
appear in the their imagination. In a previous post on this
site, I stated that to me this book, if taken to heart by the reader,
is a very good guide for self-brainwashing and leads to delusional
thinking. I actually find this very brazen of Klemp, but perhaps it is
just another indicator of his own imbalance rather than an insidious
and obvious attempt to dupe others?
Etznab, you wrote in your last post:
"I would venture to guess that there are any number of
ancient Masters on the inner and the outer who can be
of assistance for various individuals. And though some
accounts are probably fabricated from legend and myth
I tend to believe that they are not all fiction. This is but
a personal opinion and belief that I hold for good reason.
To claim that there are no such things as spiritual guides
and/or masters is not totally fair in my book. However, at
the same time I would argue that most of the accounts
are from personal experiences by a variety of individuals
and that not all of the accounts agree. IMO some do and
I don't believe any of us have claimed "that there are no
such things as spiritual guides and/or masters" so I don't
know where you are getting this idea? Perhaps you are confusing
how some (Prometheus, Ford Johnson and others) have implied
that these masters are mocked up images that one's Soul or
Oversoul or Spirit has mocked up for the benefit of the individual.
This would imply that they still have a basis in higher reality but not
necessarily beings with separate human personalities as with
Rebazar and the other eck masters. (The mind creates and sees Gods
in his own image and from his limited understanding.) However our
discussions on this site have been directed at the scam of eckankar
and the outright and blatant plagiarisms of PT that are now being
upheld and justified by Klemp and Co along with eck apologists like
Doug Marman who cite that the lies and plagiarisms are of no real
consequence simply because the eck org was built on this very
foundation of lies and plagiarisms. Their defense is that it doesn't
really hurt anyone to believe this--while we critics beg to differ.
Etznab, you also wrote:
"Something that does appear to matter about spiritual
guidance (IMO) is whether or not it helps people who are
receptive to it, by whatever vehicle it comes to them. And
then there is (perhaps) the personal element to consider
and whether or not we can legistate what a person's spiritual
experience ought to be. Obviously this appears to be what
we have no right to do with regard to another person and
their spiritual beliefs. Well, at least to an extent. Like, I
wouldn't say that 'human sacrifice' should be condoned
in the name of religion."
This statement seems to imply that we critics of eckankar are
attempting to "legislate what a person's spiritual experience
ought to be." This is not true. We do respect personal (our own
and others') spiritual experiences. This is not an issue here. However,
in reading "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," it is of my opinion
Klemp is attempting "to legislate" by manipulating the minds of
the reader and tricking them into believing that "legends"
can be real! If you want to see a good example of people
who like to legislate what a valid spiritual experience is, then
go over to HuChat and try to have this same discussion there.
Their parameters and belief system is very narrow on that chat
site, especially in regard to higher spiritual experiences.
Thanks for your posts. I do see what you mean in part but I just
wanted to point out a few things that seem to have led to an element
of misunderstanding or interpretation. Perhaps, it is all just comes
down to individual semantics.
--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/15/07 2:48:29 PM Central Standard Time,
> prometheus_973@... writes:
> > Hello All,
> > Doug Marman once said, "Yes, I would say a lot of what is taught
> > about Eckankar is a myth. Yes, I think a lot of what people think
> > about the Holocaust is made up of myth as well." (2/8/2004,
> > A Few Responses) http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.asp
> > <snip>
> Thanks for sharing that link. It didn't take me to the post,
> but I did manage to find it nevertheless. The link is:
> I have not read all of the posts on T.S., however I probably should.
> Besides some posts by Doug, I also saw the name James Davis as
> Actually I pretty much like Doug as a writer. That is my opinion
> and I am entitled to it. I didn't have time to read through all of the
> posts, however I did find this illustration:
> 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck
> masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them?
> I believe this response is from the same post (A Few
> Responses) that you had mentioned from 02/08/04. I
> gave the correct link.
> This question and answer was something that I myself
> had contemplated on a number of times, however I had not
> read that post until today.
> On another note (change of topic), here is some further
> trivia about that Babaji character:
> Shri Shyamacharan Lahiri Mahasaya (1828-1895) [NP] Known
> as a Yogavatar ("Incarnation of Yoga"), Lahiri Mahasaya was
> a supervisor, married with children, working for the construction
> department of the Railway Company in Varanasi. One day in
> 1861 his office sent him by "mistake" (in fact a transfer brought
> about by the mystical power of Babaji himself) to the Ranikhet
> mountains, where Babaji appeared to him and initiated him into
> Kriya Yoga, and gave him the mission to spread it to the world.
> "Throughout the history of creation, the divine teachings of
> Kriya Yoga were introduced and lost countless times, in
> accordance with the different cycles of human consciousness.
> "The contemporary re-introduction of Kriya Yoga began in 1861
> in a remote mountain cave in northern India, and has been since
> then transmitted through an unbroken lineage of realized masters."
> According to Yogananda, Kriya Yoga was well-known in
> ancient India, but was eventually lost, due to "priestly secrecy
> and manâs indifference." The story of Lahiri Mahasaya receiving
> initiation into Kriya Yoga by the immortal yogi Mahavatar Babaji
> in 1861 is recounted in Autobiography of a Yogi. At that meeting,
> Yogananda wrote that Mahavatar Babaji told Lahiri Mahasaya,
> "The Kriya Yoga that I am giving to the world through you in this
> nineteenth century, is a revival of the same science that Krishna
> gave milleniums ago to Arjuna; and was later known to Patanjali
> and Christ."
> "According to some, Babaji is a deathless Yogi who
> is still living somewhere in the Himalayas, whilst others
> think that he takes human form once in a while in order
> to accomplish specific purposes, keeping his body young
> by a yogic process called "Kaya Kalpa". For more information
> read Roy Eugene Davis' book "Life surrendered in God"
> - 1993 - Csa Press. Since 1946, nobody knew about his
> existence. Yogananda mentioned him in the book "autobiography
> of a yogi" (which was first published in 1946), and recently
> lots of people have claimed to be disciples of his.
> Obviously, most of these statements are not true. As most
> of you probably know, Krishna is the main character of the
> "Bhagavad-Gita". Considered by Hindu people as an avatar
> of Vishnu, in the Bhagavad-Gita Krishna shows to Arjuna
> the way to soul liberation. According to some, the "Krishna"
> described in the Gita is a fictional character."
> There are too many references to mention, but in more than
> one place it appeared that (according to some) this Babji has
> "instructed" people to give out certain teachings and even to
> write books.
> It was 1945 when Paul Twitchell moved to Washington D.C.
> He had been a writer for Our Navy magazine. Yogananda's
> book was published in 1946. In 1950, Paul Twitchell and his
> wife, Camille Ballowe, joined the Self-Revelation Church of
> Absolute Monism [D.C.] and Paul reportedly wrote for The
> Mystic Cross. And though I would imagine that Paul was at
> the time familiar with this Babaji legend, personally I wouldn't
> say that Rebazar Tarzs and Babaji are the same character.
> There do appear to be similarities in both of their "legends"
> and I don't doubt that these are the only legends about old
> Masters appearing to people on the inner or the outer.
> I would venture to guess that there are any number of
> ancient Masters on the inner and the outer who can be
> of assistance for various individuals. And though some
> accounts are probably fabricated from legend and myth
> I tend to believe that they are not all fiction. This is but
> a personal opinion and belief that I hold for good reason.
> To claim that there are no such things as spiritual guides
> and/or masters is not totally fair in my book. However, at
> the same time I would argue that most of the accounts
> are from personal experiences by a variety of individuals
> and that not all of the accounts agree. IMO some do and
> some don't.
> Something that does appear to matter about spiritual
> guidance (IMO) is whether or not it helps people who are
> receptive to it, by whatever vehicle it comes to them. And
> then there is (perhaps) the personal element to consider
> and whether or not we can legistate what a person's spiritual
> experience ought to be. Obviously this appears to be what
> we have no right to do with regard to another person and
> their spiritual beliefs. Well, at least to an extent. Like, I
> wouldn't say that "human sacrifice" should be condoned
> in the name of religion.
> BTW, if I should come across like someone trying to ram
> "religion" down people's throats, I should apologize for that.
> It is not nowadays something that appeals to me to do - not
> after looking at the consequences. So I try to share in the
> way of stated opinion, personal observation, and especially
> with questions. However, people sharing their experiences
> (whether religion or not) does not have to equate to twisting
> other people's arms, but IMO can be a natural human social
> tendency toward free expression. IMO the bigger problems
> come when we try and force other people to adopt particular
> beliefs that don't really seem to work for them.
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