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2150Re: 12/2006 MYSTIC WORLD - Ask the Master #1

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  • mishmisha9
    Jan 15, 2007
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      Hi, Etznab!

      In one of your last posts you referenced Klemp's use
      of the word "legend" regarding Rebazar Tarzs in Klemp's
      book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters." You linked the
      word "legend" to other words "supposedly" or "said to be"
      in reference to RT by Twitchell in "The Key to Secret Worlds."
      It seems that Klemp is uncomfortable with RT himself
      from reading PT's words, and therefore, Klemp uses
      "legend." In fact, I venture to say that Klemp would like
      very much to make PT a legend along with all the other
      eck masters. That is my opinion, right or wrong, but I'm
      entitled to it. After all, this is just a discussion. : )

      I am wondering if you have read "Those Wonderful ECK
      Masters?" If not, you might find it an interesting read in
      that you can see how Klemp weaves a "fine" tale of all
      of the eck masters in order to trick seekers into believing
      of the "real" existence of these fake eck masters.

      Yes, Klemp even writes how those who practice the spiritual
      exercises diligently can come to believe they are real.

      For example on page 117, in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
      Klemp offers this to his readers:

      "A Spiritual Exercise to Meet Rebazar Tarzs:
      Relax in contemplation with eyes shut. Picture yourself
      on a beach, walking in sand at the ocean's edge. The warm
      waters dance about your feet, and a light ocean spray
      splashes a refeshing coolness on your face. Overhead, silent
      white gulls sail upon the wind.
      Now breathe in as the waves gently wash toward you. Then,
      on the outgoing breath, sing Rebazar (REE-bah-zahr) softly
      in rhythm with the waves fleeing back to the sea. Do this
      exercise twenty to thirty minutes a day. After you're skilled
      at it, Rebazar or another ECK Master will come and impart
      the wisdom of God to you.
      At first you may feel you have met Rebazar or one of the
      ECK Masters only in your imagination. But with time and
      practice, you will find they are real people just like you."
      Please note Klemp doesn't say they are legends here, but
      that they are "real."

      In each chapter in his book, Klemp offers a spiritual exercise
      to assist the reader/follower in making these eck masters
      appear in the their imagination. In a previous post on this
      site, I stated that to me this book, if taken to heart by the reader,
      is a very good guide for self-brainwashing and leads to delusional
      thinking. I actually find this very brazen of Klemp, but perhaps it is
      just another indicator of his own imbalance rather than an insidious
      and obvious attempt to dupe others?

      Etznab, you wrote in your last post:
      "I would venture to guess that there are any number of
      ancient Masters on the inner and the outer who can be
      of assistance for various individuals. And though some
      accounts are probably fabricated from legend and myth
      I tend to believe that they are not all fiction. This is but
      a personal opinion and belief that I hold for good reason.
      To claim that there are no such things as spiritual guides
      and/or masters is not totally fair in my book. However, at
      the same time I would argue that most of the accounts
      are from personal experiences by a variety of individuals
      and that not all of the accounts agree. IMO some do and
      some don't."

      I don't believe any of us have claimed "that there are no
      such things as spiritual guides and/or masters" so I don't
      know where you are getting this idea? Perhaps you are confusing
      how some (Prometheus, Ford Johnson and others) have implied
      that these masters are mocked up images that one's Soul or
      Oversoul or Spirit has mocked up for the benefit of the individual.
      This would imply that they still have a basis in higher reality but not
      necessarily beings with separate human personalities as with
      Rebazar and the other eck masters. (The mind creates and sees Gods
      in his own image and from his limited understanding.) However our
      discussions on this site have been directed at the scam of eckankar
      and the outright and blatant plagiarisms of PT that are now being
      upheld and justified by Klemp and Co along with eck apologists like
      Doug Marman who cite that the lies and plagiarisms are of no real
      consequence simply because the eck org was built on this very
      foundation of lies and plagiarisms. Their defense is that it doesn't
      really hurt anyone to believe this--while we critics beg to differ.

      Etznab, you also wrote:
      "Something that does appear to matter about spiritual
      guidance (IMO) is whether or not it helps people who are
      receptive to it, by whatever vehicle it comes to them. And
      then there is (perhaps) the personal element to consider
      and whether or not we can legistate what a person's spiritual
      experience ought to be. Obviously this appears to be what
      we have no right to do with regard to another person and
      their spiritual beliefs. Well, at least to an extent. Like, I
      wouldn't say that 'human sacrifice' should be condoned
      in the name of religion."

      This statement seems to imply that we critics of eckankar are
      attempting to "legislate what a person's spiritual experience
      ought to be." This is not true. We do respect personal (our own
      and others') spiritual experiences. This is not an issue here. However,
      in reading "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," it is of my opinion
      Klemp is attempting "to legislate" by manipulating the minds of
      the reader and tricking them into believing that "legends"
      can be real! If you want to see a good example of people
      who like to legislate what a valid spiritual experience is, then
      go over to HuChat and try to have this same discussion there.
      Their parameters and belief system is very narrow on that chat
      site, especially in regard to higher spiritual experiences.

      Thanks for your posts. I do see what you mean in part but I just
      wanted to point out a few things that seem to have led to an element
      of misunderstanding or interpretation. Perhaps, it is all just comes
      down to individual semantics.

      Mish



      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
      >
      > In a message dated 1/15/07 2:48:29 PM Central Standard Time,
      > prometheus_973@... writes:
      >
      >
      > > Hello All,
      > > Doug Marman once said, "Yes, I would say a lot of what is taught
      > > about Eckankar is a myth. Yes, I think a lot of what people think
      > > about the Holocaust is made up of myth as well." (2/8/2004,
      > > A Few Responses) http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.asp
      > > <snip>
      >
      > Prometheus,
      >
      > Thanks for sharing that link. It didn't take me to the post,
      > but I did manage to find it nevertheless. The link is:
      >
      > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBBprn.asp?st=268&
      > page=168#m264
      >
      > I have not read all of the posts on T.S., however I probably should.
      > Besides some posts by Doug, I also saw the name James Davis as
      > well.
      >
      > Actually I pretty much like Doug as a writer. That is my opinion
      > and I am entitled to it. I didn't have time to read through all of the
      > posts, however I did find this illustration:
      >
      > [....]
      >
      > 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck
      > masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them?
      >
      > Yes.
      >
      > [....]
      >
      > I believe this response is from the same post (A Few
      > Responses) that you had mentioned from 02/08/04. I
      > gave the correct link.
      >
      > This question and answer was something that I myself
      > had contemplated on a number of times, however I had not
      > read that post until today.
      >
      > On another note (change of topic), here is some further
      > trivia about that Babaji character:
      >
      > Shri Shyamacharan Lahiri Mahasaya (1828-1895) [NP] Known
      > as a Yogavatar ("Incarnation of Yoga"), Lahiri Mahasaya was
      > a supervisor, married with children, working for the construction
      > department of the Railway Company in Varanasi. One day in
      > 1861 his office sent him by "mistake" (in fact a transfer brought
      > about by the mystical power of Babaji himself) to the Ranikhet
      > mountains, where Babaji appeared to him and initiated him into
      > Kriya Yoga, and gave him the mission to spread it to the world.
      > [....]
      >
      > http://www.hariharananda.org/english/who_we_are/kriya/kriya
      > _linage.htm
      >
      > "Throughout the history of creation, the divine teachings of
      > Kriya Yoga were introduced and lost countless times, in
      > accordance with the different cycles of human consciousness.
      > "The contemporary re-introduction of Kriya Yoga began in 1861
      > in a remote mountain cave in northern India, and has been since
      > then transmitted through an unbroken lineage of realized masters."
      >
      > http://www.hariharananda.org/english/who_we_are/kriya/kriya
      > _linage.htm
      >
      > According to Yogananda, Kriya Yoga was well-known in
      > ancient India, but was eventually lost, due to "priestly secrecy
      > and man’s indifference." The story of Lahiri Mahasaya receiving
      > initiation into Kriya Yoga by the immortal yogi Mahavatar Babaji
      > in 1861 is recounted in Autobiography of a Yogi.[2] At that meeting,
      > Yogananda wrote that Mahavatar Babaji told Lahiri Mahasaya,
      > "The Kriya Yoga that I am giving to the world through you in this
      > nineteenth century, is a revival of the same science that Krishna
      > gave milleniums ago to Arjuna; and was later known to Patanjali
      > and Christ."
      >
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriya_Yoga
      >
      > "According to some, Babaji is a deathless Yogi who
      > is still living somewhere in the Himalayas, whilst others
      > think that he takes human form once in a while in order
      > to accomplish specific purposes, keeping his body young
      > by a yogic process called "Kaya Kalpa". For more information
      > read Roy Eugene Davis' book "Life surrendered in God"
      > - 1993 - Csa Press. Since 1946, nobody knew about his
      > existence. Yogananda mentioned him in the book "autobiography
      > of a yogi" (which was first published in 1946), and recently
      > lots of people have claimed to be disciples of his.
      > Obviously, most of these statements are not true. As most
      > of you probably know, Krishna is the main character of the
      > "Bhagavad-Gita". Considered by Hindu people as an avatar
      > of Vishnu, in the Bhagavad-Gita Krishna shows to Arjuna
      > the way to soul liberation. According to some, the "Krishna"
      > described in the Gita is a fictional character."
      >
      > http://www.angelfire.com/yt/KRIYAYOGA/index.html
      >
      > There are too many references to mention, but in more than
      > one place it appeared that (according to some) this Babji has
      > "instructed" people to give out certain teachings and even to
      > write books.
      >
      > It was 1945 when Paul Twitchell moved to Washington D.C.
      > He had been a writer for Our Navy magazine. Yogananda's
      > book was published in 1946. In 1950, Paul Twitchell and his
      > wife, Camille Ballowe, joined the Self-Revelation Church of
      > Absolute Monism [D.C.] and Paul reportedly wrote for The
      > Mystic Cross. And though I would imagine that Paul was at
      > the time familiar with this Babaji legend, personally I wouldn't
      > say that Rebazar Tarzs and Babaji are the same character.
      > There do appear to be similarities in both of their "legends"
      > and I don't doubt that these are the only legends about old
      > Masters appearing to people on the inner or the outer.
      >
      > I would venture to guess that there are any number of
      > ancient Masters on the inner and the outer who can be
      > of assistance for various individuals. And though some
      > accounts are probably fabricated from legend and myth
      > I tend to believe that they are not all fiction. This is but
      > a personal opinion and belief that I hold for good reason.
      > To claim that there are no such things as spiritual guides
      > and/or masters is not totally fair in my book. However, at
      > the same time I would argue that most of the accounts
      > are from personal experiences by a variety of individuals
      > and that not all of the accounts agree. IMO some do and
      > some don't.
      >
      > Something that does appear to matter about spiritual
      > guidance (IMO) is whether or not it helps people who are
      > receptive to it, by whatever vehicle it comes to them. And
      > then there is (perhaps) the personal element to consider
      > and whether or not we can legistate what a person's spiritual
      > experience ought to be. Obviously this appears to be what
      > we have no right to do with regard to another person and
      > their spiritual beliefs. Well, at least to an extent. Like, I
      > wouldn't say that "human sacrifice" should be condoned
      > in the name of religion.
      >
      > BTW, if I should come across like someone trying to ram
      > "religion" down people's throats, I should apologize for that.
      > It is not nowadays something that appeals to me to do - not
      > after looking at the consequences. So I try to share in the
      > way of stated opinion, personal observation, and especially
      > with questions. However, people sharing their experiences
      > (whether religion or not) does not have to equate to twisting
      > other people's arms, but IMO can be a natural human social
      > tendency toward free expression. IMO the bigger problems
      > come when we try and force other people to adopt particular
      > beliefs that don't really seem to work for them.
      >
      > Etznab
      >
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