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Re: [EaldormereBlacksmithguild] Monthly question

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  • Helmut's Forge
    The one thing that is a must is that it must be clean, I soak mine in a degreaser for several days then a strong vinegar and water bath to remove the
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 5, 2011
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      The one thing that is a must is that it must be clean, I soak mine in a degreaser for several days then a strong vinegar and water bath to remove the degreaser. Dry quickly. Sometimes I will use a rust remover in there as well.
      Then I use a half round swage to start the weld.
      Helmut

      On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 7:39 AM, thoravolundsdottir <hverweybsmith@...> wrote:
       

      Morning all

      We have decided to do a monthly question, (Craig mentioned this in one of his posts) and since it is a new month and everyone is back from a successful blacksmithing conference in Fergus Ontario, I thought I'd begin.

      Question: What is the best way to forge weld braided wire?

      Please feel free to answer this question and/or ask more questions on this topic.

      Yours in Service
      Lady Thora V
      aka: Henreitta


    • dblacksmith23
      ... By braided wire I am assuming that you mean cable such as is used by wreckers or cranes. The first is to determine if it was from an elevator. This type of
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 5, 2011
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        > Question: What is the best way to forge weld braided wire?

        By braided wire I am assuming that you mean cable such as is used by wreckers or cranes.

        The first is to determine if it was from an elevator. This type of cable is counter rotating. That is that the inner strands are twisted in the opposite direction from the outer strands. If you heat this type of cable and try to twist it tighter the inner strands cause it to force apart.

        It can still be welded but don't twist it tight. Start with standard cable as it is easier.

        Regular cable from cranes or wreckers etc. has inner and outer strands twisted in the same direction. This allows you to take a heat and clamp one end in a vise and twist the other end with vise grips or pipe wrench tight to help remove as much of the air space as possible.

        The good news is this alloy welds very easily although the technique is a bit different from normal forge welding.

        Once the cable is twisted tight take a general bright orange heat and scrub as much scale off as possible with a fine wire brush. Do this gently to not untwist what you have previously done.

        Flux with 20 MuleTeam Borax or similar. Let the flux melt into all the cracks and crevices. It should wick its way deep into the structure of the cable.

        Back to the fire and take to a welding heat. Lemon yellow in a gas forge, well below sparks in a coal forge. For the next step you will need a bottom tool. A swage block is ideal but you can get away with a couple sizes of angle iron welded and supported on a bar that fits the hardy hole of the anvil. The point here is to create a tool that support the bottom of the cable (either 90 degrees V block as the angle iron or half rounds as is found in many swage blocks)

        The different sizes will allow you to adjust to the right size as the cable/bar shrinks or compacts as it is welded.

        So having your swage tool ready bring out the cable and start the weld at the far end with light but firm hammer taps. Now the important part. Rotate the cable as you go so that each hammer tap is tightening the cable as you weld.

        At first it will be sort of squishy or floppy but once the weld takes it will become a solid bar and you will hear the sound change. Once it is solid just treat it as a solid bar and you can do further welds or refinement on the anvil surface.

        Repeat overlapping your welds as you go until you reach the length that you wish.

        I hope this helps.
        Breneth
        Artist Blacksmith
        http://www.artistblacksmith.com
      • Aurik
        Very detailed process, Breneth. For the welding compound, will straight borax do the trick or will a borax / metal filling mix work better? Aurik
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 6, 2011
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          Very detailed process, Breneth.

          For the welding compound, will straight borax do the trick or will a borax / metal filling mix work better?

          Aurik

          --- In EaldormereBlacksmithguild@yahoogroups.com, "dblacksmith23" <drobertson@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > > Question: What is the best way to forge weld braided wire?
          >
          > By braided wire I am assuming that you mean cable such as is used by wreckers or cranes.
          >
          > The first is to determine if it was from an elevator. This type of cable is counter rotating. That is that the inner strands are twisted in the opposite direction from the outer strands. If you heat this type of cable and try to twist it tighter the inner strands cause it to force apart.
          >
          > It can still be welded but don't twist it tight. Start with standard cable as it is easier.
          >
          > Regular cable from cranes or wreckers etc. has inner and outer strands twisted in the same direction. This allows you to take a heat and clamp one end in a vise and twist the other end with vise grips or pipe wrench tight to help remove as much of the air space as possible.
          >
          > The good news is this alloy welds very easily although the technique is a bit different from normal forge welding.
          >
          > Once the cable is twisted tight take a general bright orange heat and scrub as much scale off as possible with a fine wire brush. Do this gently to not untwist what you have previously done.
          >
          > Flux with 20 MuleTeam Borax or similar. Let the flux melt into all the cracks and crevices. It should wick its way deep into the structure of the cable.
          >
          > Back to the fire and take to a welding heat. Lemon yellow in a gas forge, well below sparks in a coal forge. For the next step you will need a bottom tool. A swage block is ideal but you can get away with a couple sizes of angle iron welded and supported on a bar that fits the hardy hole of the anvil. The point here is to create a tool that support the bottom of the cable (either 90 degrees V block as the angle iron or half rounds as is found in many swage blocks)
          >
          > The different sizes will allow you to adjust to the right size as the cable/bar shrinks or compacts as it is welded.
          >
          > So having your swage tool ready bring out the cable and start the weld at the far end with light but firm hammer taps. Now the important part. Rotate the cable as you go so that each hammer tap is tightening the cable as you weld.
          >
          > At first it will be sort of squishy or floppy but once the weld takes it will become a solid bar and you will hear the sound change. Once it is solid just treat it as a solid bar and you can do further welds or refinement on the anvil surface.
          >
          > Repeat overlapping your welds as you go until you reach the length that you wish.
          >
          > I hope this helps.
          > Breneth
          > Artist Blacksmith
          > http://www.artistblacksmith.com
          >
        • Helmut's Forge
          I have always preffered anhydrous borax without metal filer for this type of welding. Helmut
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 6, 2011
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            I have always preffered anhydrous borax without metal filer for this type of welding.
            Helmut

            On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 5:48 PM, Aurik <rockforge@...> wrote:
             

            Very detailed process, Breneth.

            For the welding compound, will straight borax do the trick or will a borax / metal filling mix work better?

            Aurik



            --- In EaldormereBlacksmithguild@yahoogroups.com, "dblacksmith23" <drobertson@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > > Question: What is the best way to forge weld braided wire?
            >
            > By braided wire I am assuming that you mean cable such as is used by wreckers or cranes.
            >
            > The first is to determine if it was from an elevator. This type of cable is counter rotating. That is that the inner strands are twisted in the opposite direction from the outer strands. If you heat this type of cable and try to twist it tighter the inner strands cause it to force apart.
            >
            > It can still be welded but don't twist it tight. Start with standard cable as it is easier.
            >
            > Regular cable from cranes or wreckers etc. has inner and outer strands twisted in the same direction. This allows you to take a heat and clamp one end in a vise and twist the other end with vise grips or pipe wrench tight to help remove as much of the air space as possible.
            >
            > The good news is this alloy welds very easily although the technique is a bit different from normal forge welding.
            >
            > Once the cable is twisted tight take a general bright orange heat and scrub as much scale off as possible with a fine wire brush. Do this gently to not untwist what you have previously done.
            >
            > Flux with 20 MuleTeam Borax or similar. Let the flux melt into all the cracks and crevices. It should wick its way deep into the structure of the cable.
            >
            > Back to the fire and take to a welding heat. Lemon yellow in a gas forge, well below sparks in a coal forge. For the next step you will need a bottom tool. A swage block is ideal but you can get away with a couple sizes of angle iron welded and supported on a bar that fits the hardy hole of the anvil. The point here is to create a tool that support the bottom of the cable (either 90 degrees V block as the angle iron or half rounds as is found in many swage blocks)
            >
            > The different sizes will allow you to adjust to the right size as the cable/bar shrinks or compacts as it is welded.
            >
            > So having your swage tool ready bring out the cable and start the weld at the far end with light but firm hammer taps. Now the important part. Rotate the cable as you go so that each hammer tap is tightening the cable as you weld.
            >
            > At first it will be sort of squishy or floppy but once the weld takes it will become a solid bar and you will hear the sound change. Once it is solid just treat it as a solid bar and you can do further welds or refinement on the anvil surface.
            >
            > Repeat overlapping your welds as you go until you reach the length that you wish.
            >
            > I hope this helps.
            > Breneth
            > Artist Blacksmith
            > http://www.artistblacksmith.com
            >


          • thoravolundsdottir
            Good day all I know that the monthly question is a bit late this month, but as it is the end of the crazy season for me I hope that you can over look that. So
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 19, 2011
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              Good day all
              I know that the monthly question is a bit late this month, but as it is the end of the crazy season for me I hope that you can over look that.

              So Here is the question(s) of the month: What is the difference between wrought iron and mild steel? and which is better?. why?

              I know its more then one question but I thought it might be of interest to people, and also I love asking questions.

              If you have a question about smithing feel free to post it, no question is a stupid question and others may also be wondering why too. Some questions may seem very basic but that is how we all learn.

              If you are too shy to post a question but have one, feel free to send it to me via hverweybsmith at gmail dot com, I get too many emials on my yahoo account so i only use it to send stuff out now.

              ***ALSO!!!! there will be a brag table a Hare so please bring something out for it, if you only have a picture feel free to bring it out for our scrap book that I will be bringing too, yes there is a scrap book too :) come on out and say hi at Hare and meet others of like mind who enjoy hitting on hot (or cold) metal ....

              Yours In Service

              Lady Thora V
            • Gary Walker
              While I am more of an armourer than a blacksmith, (therefore I commit the sin of hitting colt steel), real wroght iron is the period material and mild steel is
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 19, 2011
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                While I am more of an armourer than a blacksmith, (therefore I commit the sin of hitting colt steel), real wroght iron is the period material and mild steel is the modern. Wroght iron is made by taking a large lump of ore called a bloom and repeatedly heating it and pounding it flat. With practice, carbon can be added or reduced but more important, each time the bloom is worked, more of the silicates or slag flak off the bloom. 
                Wroght iron is harder to get these days, but works better in the forge especially for hammer welding. Due to some metalurgical properties I dont pretend to understand, wroght iron has better corrosion resistance than most modern steel. It is also like modern steel, subject to the properties of high and low carbon content. Very high carbon was not used in medieval europe but high and low carbon material were used where the hardness or softer steel were desireable.
                Mild steel is low carbon steel and makes the majority of the armour used in the SCA as well as most of our consumer goods. It is reletively cheap and consistant.

                For most blacksmithing work, mild steel works well enough without the extra cost of Wrought Iron. For the best work, Wrought Iron could be best.
                For a source for new wrought iron try...





                Duncan

                From: thoravolundsdottir <hverweybsmith@...>
                To: EaldormereBlacksmithguild@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 6:35:44 PM
                Subject: [EaldormereBlacksmithguild] Monthly question

                 
                Good day all
                I know that the monthly question is a bit late this month, but as it is the end of the crazy season for me I hope that you can over look that.

                So Here is the question(s) of the month: What is the difference between wrought iron and mild steel? and which is better?. why?

                I know its more then one question but I thought it might be of interest to people, and also I love asking questions.

                If you have a question about smithing feel free to post it, no question is a stupid question and others may also be wondering why too. Some questions may seem very basic but that is how we all learn.

                If you are too shy to post a question but have one, feel free to send it to me via hverweybsmith at gmail dot com, I get too many emials on my yahoo account so i only use it to send stuff out now.

                ***ALSO!!!! there will be a brag table a Hare so please bring something out for it, if you only have a picture feel free to bring it out for our scrap book that I will be bringing too, yes there is a scrap book too :) come on out and say hi at Hare and meet others of like mind who enjoy hitting on hot (or cold) metal ....

                Yours In Service

                Lady Thora V



              • Sam Falzone
                Hi Thora and everyone. Sorry I won t be at Hare, Aibhilin and I are committed to helping a friend of ours get their house buttoned up and livable before the
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 19, 2011
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                  Hi Thora and everyone.
                  Sorry I won't be at Hare, Aibhilin and I are committed to helping a
                  friend of ours get their house buttoned up and livable before the snow
                  flys.
                  Have a great event - I love the idea of a Brag table and scrapbook.
                  Any way we could turn that scrapbook idea into an online project (a
                  question for those wise in the ways of the web)? Just curious.
                  Cheers.

                  Sam
                  Aeneas
                  Valdr

                  On 10/19/11, Gary Walker <walkergarya@...> wrote:
                  > While I am more of an armourer than a blacksmith, (therefore I commit the
                  > sin of hitting colt steel), real wroght iron is the period material and mild
                  > steel is the modern. Wroght iron is made by taking a large lump of ore
                  > called a bloom and repeatedly heating it and pounding it flat. With
                  > practice, carbon can be added or reduced but more important, each time the
                  > bloom is worked, more of the silicates or slag flak off the bloom.
                  > Wroght iron is harder to get these days, but works better in the forge
                  > especially for hammer welding. Due to some metalurgical properties I dont
                  > pretend to understand, wroght iron has better corrosion resistance than most
                  > modern steel. It is also like modern steel, subject to the properties of
                  > high and low carbon content. Very high carbon was not used in medieval
                  > europe but high and low carbon material were used where the hardness or
                  > softer steel were desireable.
                  > Mild steel is low carbon steel and makes the majority of the armour used in
                  > the SCA as well as most of our consumer goods. It is reletively cheap and
                  > consistant.
                  >
                  > For most blacksmithing work, mild steel works well enough without the extra
                  > cost of Wrought Iron. For the best work, Wrought Iron could be best.
                  > For a source for new wrought iron try...
                  >
                  >
                  > http://www.realwroughtiron.com/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Duncan
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: thoravolundsdottir <hverweybsmith@...>
                  > To: EaldormereBlacksmithguild@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 6:35:44 PM
                  > Subject: [EaldormereBlacksmithguild] Monthly question
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Good day all
                  > I know that the monthly question is a bit late this month, but as it is the
                  > end of the crazy season for me I hope that you can over look that.
                  >
                  > So Here is the question(s) of the month: What is the difference between
                  > wrought iron and mild steel? and which is better?. why?
                  >
                  > I know its more then one question but I thought it might be of interest to
                  > people, and also I love asking questions.
                  >
                  > If you have a question about smithing feel free to post it, no question is a
                  > stupid question and others may also be wondering why too. Some questions
                  > may seem very basic but that is how we all learn.
                  >
                  > If you are too shy to post a question but have one, feel free to send it to
                  > me via hverweybsmith at gmail dot com, I get too many emials on my yahoo
                  > account so i only use it to send stuff out now.
                  >
                  > ***ALSO!!!! there will be a brag table a Hare so please bring something out
                  > for it, if you only have a picture feel free to bring it out for our scrap
                  > book that I will be bringing too, yes there is a scrap book too :) come on
                  > out and say hi at Hare and meet others of like mind who enjoy hitting on hot
                  > (or cold) metal ....
                  >
                  > Yours In Service
                  >
                  > Lady Thora V
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  Sent from my mobile device

                  _______________________________________________________
                  Strive for greatness in all that you do, for life is too short to be a hack.
                • thoravolundsdottir
                  Hello Everyone So another month, another question: How do YOU make a striker? I was asked this at a demo this summer so I thought I d pass it along AND do you
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 11, 2011
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                    Hello Everyone

                    So another month, another question:


                    How do YOU make a striker?

                    I was asked this at a demo this summer so I thought I'd pass it along

                    AND do you have any pics to share ?

                    YIS

                    Lady Thora



                    If you have any other questions that are of interest please feel free to ask them or send them along to me if you want.
                  • dblacksmith23
                    Hello Everyone Strikers are one of the most useful but often forgotten tools, that we should be using everyday when we are in persona. When I do demonstrations
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 11, 2011
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                      Hello Everyone
                      Strikers are one of the most useful but often forgotten tools, that we should be using everyday when we are in persona.
                      When I do demonstrations I will often start the forge fire with flint and steel. It makes a great demonstration and really doesn't take much longer than using matches or a lighter. This is in part the basis of why we can be blacksmiths, being able to start and work with fire.

                      So How I Make a Striker.
                      High carbon steel is a must. I have made very good strikers using 5160 (coil car or truck spring), O1 (oil hardening 1%carbon tool steel), W1 (1.2% carbon water hardening tool steel) old files etc.. I will use the 5160 as an example.

                      For this project I really need only a small piece of the spring steel, since it will be stretched. It could even be fire welded to mild steel as a backing if you chose.
                      1. I draw out the steel until I have a piece about 4 mm by 10 mm by about 150 mm.
                      2. Then point both ends this giving about 200 mm total length.
                      3. I curl both tips towards the same edge. The curl is done on the axis of the hard way.
                      4. I then form a "J" shape with one end, over the horn, followed by the other end to create a closed "C" shape.
                      5. Flatten and true everything up. If you want you can thermal cycle and anneal at this point to make a more durable tool.
                      6. Back to the forge for heat treating.
                      7. I bring the striking edge up just past non-magnetic and let it cool until the magnet just starts to pull. This is tested on the striking edge.
                      8. Then the whole piece is quenched in room temperature water.

                      At this point it will throw the best sparks but it is quite brittle and may fracture if dropped on concrete.
                      I may temper to just the beginning of  very light yellow colour. About 400 degrees F.
                      This seems to still allow the sparks but makes it a bit more resistant to breaking accidentally. Don't over temper as once it gets a bit soft it doesn't spark as well. If this happens just re-harden.

                      If you check through the historical books strikers came in almost any shape you could think of, including serpents and Thor's hammer shapes as well as standard "C" and "J" shapes.

                      Remember to use a good sharp piece of flint to strike your sparks. Often people have trouble because their flint is not sharp enough to throw the sparks.

                      A couple of links
                      Click Here For youtube video I put up a few years ago on making your own striker. 

                      and a Photo of a striker I made 20 years ago http://www.artistblacksmith.com/striker.jpg  It still works great today and I use it at my period demonstrations.

                      Good Smithing
                      Breneth
                      www.ArtistBlacksmith.com 


                      --- In EaldormereBlacksmithguild@yahoogroups.com, "thoravolundsdottir" <hverweybsmith@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Everyone
                      >
                      > So another month, another question:
                      >
                      >
                      > How do YOU make a striker?
                      >
                      > I was asked this at a demo this summer so I thought I'd pass it along
                      >
                      > AND do you have any pics to share ?
                      >
                      > YIS
                      >
                      > Lady Thora
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > If you have any other questions that are of interest please feel free to ask them or send them along to me if you want.
                      >
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