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RE: [E_Rapier] Re: ealdormere-rapier Rules Version 4

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  • John Wyatt
    ... which will die at some unknown point, and is not being managed. I transferred to the current e-list as I thought the thread had merrit. In answer to
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 4, 2007
      :> The original posting started on the old e-list
      which will die at some unknown point, and is not being
      managed. I transferred to the current e-list as I
      thought the thread had merrit.

      In answer to Hoskald's comments, I agree that what I
      said could take us down the road of silliness if the
      MiC and the Combatants allow it. Here's my concern
      though:

      On the one hand, if we say conceding the bout leads to
      a loss all the time, we are giving someone a moment of
      doubt as to whether they should walk away from what
      they perceive as an unsafe situation. Perhaps it's
      not a very big moment of doubt, but when the
      adrenaline's up and competitiveness is at it's
      height, the smallest thing could tip the scales and
      things could turn bad.

      The flip side of this was well put by Hoskald.

      So... what do we do? I say it's the MiC that has
      pervue in this decision at each given instance. The
      reason: she/he is the person directly responsible for
      the safety of all combatants on the List. It's up to
      them to:
      a) Determine if this is a personal issue between two
      people or whether it is a problem for other Combatants
      as well?
      b) What is the best way to handle this situation that
      is fair to ALL? Not just these two combatants. If
      you read this email thread you have a sense of what
      the general Rapier populace thinks on this topic, and
      I suggest you keep it in mind, but you have to make
      the call on the field. Keep safety paramount in your
      mind and I'll back you on whatever call you make.

      Now talking to the MiC for the given tournament AS
      EARLY AS POSSIBLE if you have an issue fighting
      someone IS KEY! Gives them more time to make
      arrangments in the tournament that can be fair to
      everyone. If you wait until you're called to the
      List, you've tied the MiC's hands on what she/he can
      do.

      In Service,

      Mateo de Merida





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    • Aaron Gormanshaw
      ... Gerard, was this a safety question? I did not perceive it as such, so I may have headed off on a wrong tangent. If not a safety question, what is the
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 4, 2007
        > I am in a tournament and facing someone with a
        > longer blade. ( This is all they have ) . I do not
        > wish to fence them . How is this scored ?



        Gerard, was this a safety question? I did not perceive it as such, so I may
        have headed off on a wrong tangent. If not a safety question, what is the
        reason for this you not wishing to fence them?



        Hoskuld





        On the one hand, if we say conceding the bout leads to
        a loss all the time, we are giving someone a moment of
        doubt as to whether they should walk away from what
        they perceive as an unsafe situation. Perhaps it's
        not a very big moment of doubt, but when the
        adrenaline's up and competitiveness is at it's
        height, the smallest thing could tip the scales and
        things could turn bad.

        The flip side of this was well put by Hoskald.

        So... what do we do? I say it's the MiC that has
        pervue in this decision at each given instance. The
        reason: she/he is the person directly responsible for
        the safety of all combatants on the List. It's up to
        them to:
        a) Determine if this is a personal issue between two
        people or whether it is a problem for other Combatants
        as well?
        b) What is the best way to handle this situation that
        is fair to ALL? Not just these two combatants. If
        you read this email thread you have a sense of what
        the general Rapier populace thinks on this topic, and
        I suggest you keep it in mind, but you have to make
        the call on the field. Keep safety paramount in your
        mind and I'll back you on whatever call you make.

        Now talking to the MiC for the given tournament AS
        EARLY AS POSSIBLE if you have an issue fighting
        someone IS KEY! Gives them more time to make
        arrangments in the tournament that can be fair to
        everyone. If you wait until you're called to the
        List, you've tied the MiC's hands on what she/he can
        do.

        In Service,

        Mateo de Merida_._,___



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Gerrard
        Actually I am asking on behalf of someone else. So I m not 100% certain. I believe they were more interested in the scoring. Gerrard ... From: Aaron
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 4, 2007
          Actually I am asking on behalf of someone else. So I'm not 100% certain.
          I believe they were more interested in the scoring.
          Gerrard
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Aaron Gormanshaw
          To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:06 PM
          Subject: RE: [E_Rapier] Re: ealdormere-rapier Rules Version 4


          > I am in a tournament and facing someone with a
          > longer blade. ( This is all they have ) . I do not
          > wish to fence them . How is this scored ?

          Gerard, was this a safety question? I did not perceive it as such, so I may
          have headed off on a wrong tangent. If not a safety question, what is the
          reason for this you not wishing to fence them?

          Hoskuld

          On the one hand, if we say conceding the bout leads to
          a loss all the time, we are giving someone a moment of
          doubt as to whether they should walk away from what
          they perceive as an unsafe situation. Perhaps it's
          not a very big moment of doubt, but when the
          adrenaline's up and competitiveness is at it's
          height, the smallest thing could tip the scales and
          things could turn bad.

          The flip side of this was well put by Hoskald.

          So... what do we do? I say it's the MiC that has
          pervue in this decision at each given instance. The
          reason: she/he is the person directly responsible for
          the safety of all combatants on the List. It's up to
          them to:
          a) Determine if this is a personal issue between two
          people or whether it is a problem for other Combatants
          as well?
          b) What is the best way to handle this situation that
          is fair to ALL? Not just these two combatants. If
          you read this email thread you have a sense of what
          the general Rapier populace thinks on this topic, and
          I suggest you keep it in mind, but you have to make
          the call on the field. Keep safety paramount in your
          mind and I'll back you on whatever call you make.

          Now talking to the MiC for the given tournament AS
          EARLY AS POSSIBLE if you have an issue fighting
          someone IS KEY! Gives them more time to make
          arrangments in the tournament that can be fair to
          everyone. If you wait until you're called to the
          List, you've tied the MiC's hands on what she/he can
          do.

          In Service,

          Mateo de Merida_._,___

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Enzinas
          ... I agree that this is a potential situation so, given that you have said this is the responsibility of the MiC I d like to know under what circumstance you
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 4, 2007
            On 4/4/07, John Wyatt <jwyatt2@...> wrote:
            > On the one hand, if we say conceding the bout leads to
            > a loss all the time, we are giving someone a moment of
            > doubt as to whether they should walk away from what
            > they perceive as an unsafe situation. Perhaps it's
            > not a very big moment of doubt, but when the
            > adrenaline's up and competitiveness is at it's
            > height, the smallest thing could tip the scales and
            > things could turn bad.

            I agree that this is a potential situation so, given that you have
            said this is the responsibility of the MiC I'd like to know under what
            circumstance you would allow THL Pointjock to refuse to fight an THL
            Wireweenie and not lose the bout and also not require THL Wireweenie
            to retire from the field as being unsafe for anyone else to fence.

            I must admit that I cannot think of a circumstance where I would do that.

            --j/g
          • Gerrard
            Most blades are standard length and longer... 98.8% of the time the blades are the same length. I am asking on behalf of someone else. Gerrard ... From:
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 4, 2007
              Most blades are standard length and longer... 98.8% of the time the blades are the same length. I am asking on behalf of someone else.
              Gerrard

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Aaron Gormanshaw
              To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 10:12 AM
              Subject: RE: [E_Rapier] Re: ealdormere-rapier Rules Version 4


              ***There is nothing in the rules designating what a standard length blade
              is.***

              If for any reason you do not want to fence your opponent, you have the
              right to yield the bout and not fence it.

              I am uncomfortable with the answer below which seems to say that if you have
              the agreement of the MiC, you can take a 35" blade onto the field in a
              tournament and refuse to fight anyone who brings a longer blade, which means
              that you win the bouts in the tournament without having to fight them.

              Let's rephrase the question:

              I am in a tournament and facing someone with a shorter blade. (That is all
              they have). I do not wish to fence them. How is this scored?

              As per below, with the agreement of the MiC, I can "not wish to fence" all
              of my opponents because they do not have a blade to match my length and thus
              I can win the bouts in the tournament without fighting if all my opponents
              bring short blades.

              Let's rephrase the question:

              I am in a tournament and facing someone without a swept hilt (using a saber
              guard). (That is all they have). I do not wish to fence them. How is this
              scored?

              As per below, with the agreement of the MiC, I can "not wish to fence" any
              of my opponents who do not have a period hilt.

              You can see how ridiculous this can easily become.

              If you do not want to fence someone, then yield.

              I personally use a blade longer than 35", and that is what I train with and
              what I am comfortable with. Why should I have to use a shorter blade which
              will mess up my style and training? Obviously, it would be to your
              strategic advantage to have your opponent use a blade shorter than they
              train with. I think that this would be abusing the system.

              Hoskuld

              > I am in a tournament and facing someone with a
              > longer blade. ( This is all they have ) . I do not
              > wish to fence them . How is this scored ?

              As others have said, you do not have to fence them. I
              understand that in the past this has been scored as a
              loss for you... even in a single elinimation
              tournament. The final answer though: Talk to the
              MiC, it's their call. Just ask them before the
              tournament so they're ready if the situation comes up!

              Mateo

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Kelly Wyatt
              I would have to agree with you on that. It s putting the MiC in a terrible position and I really can t conceive of being able to bring myself to do that. It
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 4, 2007
                I would have to agree with you on that. It's putting the MiC in a terrible
                position and I really can't conceive of being able to bring myself to do
                that. It would seem to make a mountain out of a molehill.

                If I choose not to fight someone, assuming that the reason is NOT one
                pertaining to the potential safety of others on the field, I would reserve
                the right to keep my reasons as personal and not have to tell anyone I don't
                wish to know. I wouldn't want to risk damaging anyone's ego or potentially,
                reputation. A simple "I concede." should be all that's necessary.

                Needless to say, if I felt that ANYONE else's safety were in question, I
                would not hesitate to call it to the MiC's attention.

                This is a very sticky soup indeed.

                Cainder

                @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
                MKA - Kelly Wyatt kgarlow@...
                SCA -Bantiarna Cainder ingen hui Chatharnaig
                Seeblatt Herald, Kingdom of Ealdormere
                @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
                Justus, Fortis, Patiens - Per chevron argent and sable, two sprigs of witch
                hazel and a snowy owl counterchanged.





                >From: "John Enzinas" <jenzinas@...>
                >Reply-To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com
                >To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [E_Rapier] Re: ealdormere-rapier Rules Version 4
                >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 13:22:58 -0400
                >
                >On 4/4/07, John Wyatt <jwyatt2@...> wrote:
                > > On the one hand, if we say conceding the bout leads to
                > > a loss all the time, we are giving someone a moment of
                > > doubt as to whether they should walk away from what
                > > they perceive as an unsafe situation. Perhaps it's
                > > not a very big moment of doubt, but when the
                > > adrenaline's up and competitiveness is at it's
                > > height, the smallest thing could tip the scales and
                > > things could turn bad.
                >
                >I agree that this is a potential situation so, given that you have
                >said this is the responsibility of the MiC I'd like to know under what
                >circumstance you would allow THL Pointjock to refuse to fight an THL
                >Wireweenie and not lose the bout and also not require THL Wireweenie
                >to retire from the field as being unsafe for anyone else to fence.
                >
                >I must admit that I cannot think of a circumstance where I would do that.
                >
                >--j/g
              • Bob Roberts
                What exactly is the issue? Is it that a sword is longer than the other? How about if a fencer with realy short arms has to fence someone with really long arms?
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 4, 2007
                  What exactly is the issue? Is it that a sword is
                  longer than the other? How about if a fencer with
                  realy short arms has to fence someone with really long
                  arms? Do they automatically win? Is not everyone who
                  fences at a tournament authorized? Has not the sfety
                  issue already been decided previously? Has not the
                  kingdom already decided that x blade length is
                  allowed? I know that I have been hit hard by both
                  short blades and long blades. It is not the blade that
                  hits hard, it is the fencer. By the way, were there
                  not swords of differing legnth way back then as well?
                  If you went to a duel and faced an opponent with a
                  longer sword, could you say that you did not want to
                  fight and yet still "win"? Back to what I wrote above,
                  if the kingdom has decided that a blade is acceptable
                  and that a fencer is authorized then where is the
                  problem? Could it lay in a fencer who is unsure of
                  themselves and is scared? Should they actually remain
                  authorized since they are not ready to fence
                  psychologicaly and in fact pose a danger to the fencer
                  with the longer sword?
                  There is accomodation for limitations and then there
                  is just plain sillyness.

                  --- Kelly Wyatt <kgarlow@...> wrote:

                  > I would have to agree with you on that. It's
                  > putting the MiC in a terrible
                  > position and I really can't conceive of being able
                  > to bring myself to do
                  > that. It would seem to make a mountain out of a
                  > molehill.
                  >
                  > If I choose not to fight someone, assuming that the
                  > reason is NOT one
                  > pertaining to the potential safety of others on the
                  > field, I would reserve
                  > the right to keep my reasons as personal and not
                  > have to tell anyone I don't
                  > wish to know. I wouldn't want to risk damaging
                  > anyone's ego or potentially,
                  > reputation. A simple "I concede." should be all
                  > that's necessary.
                  >
                  > Needless to say, if I felt that ANYONE else's safety
                  > were in question, I
                  > would not hesitate to call it to the MiC's
                  > attention.
                  >
                  > This is a very sticky soup indeed.
                  >
                  > Cainder
                  >
                  > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
                  > MKA - Kelly Wyatt kgarlow@...
                  > SCA -Bantiarna Cainder ingen hui Chatharnaig
                  > Seeblatt Herald, Kingdom of Ealdormere
                  > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
                  > Justus, Fortis, Patiens - Per chevron argent and
                  > sable, two sprigs of witch
                  > hazel and a snowy owl counterchanged.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >From: "John Enzinas" <jenzinas@...>
                  > >Reply-To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com
                  > >To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Subject: Re: [E_Rapier] Re: ealdormere-rapier Rules
                  > Version 4
                  > >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 13:22:58 -0400
                  > >
                  > >On 4/4/07, John Wyatt <jwyatt2@...> wrote:
                  > > > On the one hand, if we say conceding the bout
                  > leads to
                  > > > a loss all the time, we are giving someone a
                  > moment of
                  > > > doubt as to whether they should walk away from
                  > what
                  > > > they perceive as an unsafe situation. Perhaps
                  > it's
                  > > > not a very big moment of doubt, but when the
                  > > > adrenaline's up and competitiveness is at it's
                  > > > height, the smallest thing could tip the scales
                  > and
                  > > > things could turn bad.
                  > >
                  > >I agree that this is a potential situation so,
                  > given that you have
                  > >said this is the responsibility of the MiC I'd like
                  > to know under what
                  > >circumstance you would allow THL Pointjock to
                  > refuse to fight an THL
                  > >Wireweenie and not lose the bout and also not
                  > require THL Wireweenie
                  > >to retire from the field as being unsafe for anyone
                  > else to fence.
                  > >
                  > >I must admit that I cannot think of a circumstance
                  > where I would do that.
                  > >
                  > >--j/g
                  >
                  >
                  >




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                • Kelly Wyatt
                  The original question posed to the list (not by me) was regarding if a fencer with a shorter blade chooses to yield a tournament fight to a fencer with a
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 5, 2007
                    The original question posed to the list (not by me) was regarding if a
                    fencer with a shorter blade chooses to yield a tournament fight to a fencer
                    with a longer blade, does he/she lose the bout.

                    I believe that it's been determined that it's ultimately up to the MiC to
                    make that decision.

                    I agree that blade length alone is not enough reason to yield a fight. In my
                    opinion it's certainly not enough to grant anything other than a loss. On
                    it's own, that is.

                    I'm sorry if I got things muddled. I still choose to reserve my right to not
                    voice my reasons for yielding if it's anything other than a safety issue.
                    What is silliness to you may not be at all to someone else. A gentleman
                    shouldn't make assumptions.


                    Cainder

                    @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
                    MKA - Kelly Wyatt kgarlow@...
                    SCA -Bantiarna Cainder ingen hui Chatharnaig
                    Seeblatt Herald, Kingdom of Ealdormere
                    @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
                    Justus, Fortis, Patiens - Per chevron argent and sable, two sprigs of witch
                    hazel and a snowy owl counterchanged.





                    >From: Bob Roberts <maskkasm@...>
                    >Reply-To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [E_Rapier] Re: ealdormere-rapier Rules Version 4
                    >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
                    >
                    >What exactly is the issue? Is it that a sword is
                    >longer than the other? How about if a fencer with
                    >realy short arms has to fence someone with really long
                    >arms? Do they automatically win? Is not everyone who
                    >fences at a tournament authorized? Has not the sfety
                    >issue already been decided previously? Has not the
                    >kingdom already decided that x blade length is
                    >allowed? I know that I have been hit hard by both
                    >short blades and long blades. It is not the blade that
                    >hits hard, it is the fencer. By the way, were there
                    >not swords of differing legnth way back then as well?
                    >If you went to a duel and faced an opponent with a
                    >longer sword, could you say that you did not want to
                    >fight and yet still "win"? Back to what I wrote above,
                    >if the kingdom has decided that a blade is acceptable
                    >and that a fencer is authorized then where is the
                    >problem? Could it lay in a fencer who is unsure of
                    >themselves and is scared? Should they actually remain
                    >authorized since they are not ready to fence
                    >psychologicaly and in fact pose a danger to the fencer
                    >with the longer sword?
                    >There is accomodation for limitations and then there
                    >is just plain sillyness.
                    >
                  • John Enzinas
                    ... What would be a reason to allow someone to yield a bout without loosing and still allow their opponent to continue in the tournament? --j
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 5, 2007
                      On 4/5/07, Kelly Wyatt <kgarlow@...> wrote:
                      > The original question posed to the list (not by me) was regarding if a
                      > fencer with a shorter blade chooses to yield a tournament fight to a fencer
                      > with a longer blade, does he/she lose the bout.
                      >
                      > I believe that it's been determined that it's ultimately up to the MiC to
                      > make that decision.

                      What would be a reason to allow someone to yield a bout without
                      loosing and still allow their opponent to continue in the tournament?

                      --j
                    • Kelly Wyatt
                      ... Honestly, I can t think of ANY reason that fits those parameters. I will let it roll around a bit and see if I can think of something. Cainder
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 5, 2007
                        >From: "John Enzinas" <jenzinas@...>
                        >Reply-To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: [E_Rapier] Re: ealdormere-rapier Rules Version 4
                        >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 09:37:04 -0400
                        >
                        >On 4/5/07, Kelly Wyatt <kgarlow@...> wrote:
                        > > The original question posed to the list (not by me) was regarding if a
                        > > fencer with a shorter blade chooses to yield a tournament fight to a
                        >fencer
                        > > with a longer blade, does he/she lose the bout.
                        > >
                        > > I believe that it's been determined that it's ultimately up to the MiC
                        >to
                        > > make that decision.
                        >
                        >What would be a reason to allow someone to yield a bout without
                        >loosing and still allow their opponent to continue in the tournament?
                        >
                        >--j

                        Honestly, I can't think of ANY reason that fits those parameters. I will let
                        it roll around a bit and see if I can think of something.

                        Cainder
                      • Nicholas J. Corkigian
                        Is it just a matter of boycotting longer blades out of a personal preference (or displeasure)? If so, then I would say that s a personal choice to make that
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 5, 2007
                          Is it just a matter of boycotting longer blades out of a personal
                          preference (or displeasure)? If so, then I would say that's a personal
                          choice to make that has no bearing on the actual rules. The penalties
                          should go with it. In this case, it's a choice to not fence an
                          opponent, therefore it's a choice to take the loss.

                          -Nikolai


                          >
                          >
                          > > > The original question posed to the list (not by me) was regarding if a
                          > > > fencer with a shorter blade chooses to yield a tournament fight to a
                          > >fencer
                          > > > with a longer blade, does he/she lose the bout.
                          > > >
                          > > > I believe that it's been determined that it's ultimately up to the
                          > MiC
                          > >to
                          > > > make that decision.
                          > >
                          > >What would be a reason to allow someone to yield a bout without
                          > >loosing and still allow their opponent to continue in the tournament?
                          > >
                          > >--j
                          >
                          > Honestly, I can't think of ANY reason that fits those parameters. I
                          > will let
                          > it roll around a bit and see if I can think of something.
                          >
                          > Cainder
                          >
                          >


                          --
                          -Nicholas J. Corkigian

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                        • Ross Weaver
                          ... Yeilding to an opponent is to give them the win. If my opponent legs me and I choose to yeild rather than fight from my knees I m offering them the win,
                          Message 12 of 15 , Apr 5, 2007
                            On 4/5/07, Kelly Wyatt <kgarlow@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > The original question posed to the list (not by me) was regarding if a
                            > fencer with a shorter blade chooses to yield a tournament fight to a
                            > fencer
                            > with a longer blade, does he/she lose the bout.
                            >





                            Yeilding to an opponent is to give them the win. If my opponent legs me
                            and I choose to yeild rather than fight from my knees I'm offering them the
                            win, rather than to keep fighting. It does not matter why you yeild,
                            choosing to yeild is choosing to lose.

                            To refuse to fence some due to safety is a different issue. If someone is
                            unsafe they should be removed from the field. If equipment is unsafe it
                            should be removed from the field. But that is obviously not the question
                            here.

                            ~Wilhelm


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