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The Unwritten Rules of Ealdormere Fencing

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  • Eve and David
    Greetings! I m starting this topic as a result of discussions with fencers at Crown Tourney. We have all encountered odd situations which aren t necessarily
    Message 1 of 3 , May 31, 2014
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      Greetings!

       

      I’m starting this topic as a result of discussions with fencers at Crown Tourney. We have all encountered odd situations which aren’t necessarily covered by the SCA or Ealdormere rules for rapier combat. I have some examples and I was interested in what other fencers had encountered and how the situation was resolved. I’m hoping this thread will help provide some guidance to folks currently working on the new Marshal’s Handbook.

       

      Here are some of examples to get the ball rolling.

       

      1.       A fencer has lost an arm. During the course of the bout he delivers a good blow to his opponent’s head/torso but at the same time losses his remaining arm. Does the fencer who lost the limb win? Or do we consider it a loss for both and have a re-fight? It’s a rare situation and when I’ve encountered it before it’s been handled as a loss for both. One argument could be that the fencer who lost the limbs is still “alive” and thus wins. A counter argument could be that we don’t know the long term effects of a blow. Our rules don’t use terms like “death” or “kill”. A good blow to the head/throat/torso/groin/inside of the thighs incapacitates. It may have been fatal, it may not have been. The person may recover but they can’t continue the fight. Neither can the person who lost both limbs. Both are incapacitated. Is this too much rules lawyering? How have people handled this situation?

       

      2.       A fencer takes the limb of an opponent and, as a point of honour, gives up the corresponding limb of their own. While this is happening their opponent continues to attack. Is that kosher, or should time be allowed for the switch? In any case where a limb is lost, should there be a break in the action. It’s nice to give a fencer time to adjust but some fencers are capable of quickly switching hands and carrying on or delivering a blow as they drop to their knees.  Are they taking advantage of the pause made by their opponent to allow them to adjust?

       

       

      3.       Corkscrewing. At one time we had an unwritten convention that if we legged an opponent we would stay within 120 degrees of their front (or was in 180?). In the previous Ealdormere rule set we were fixed in place, we couldn’t rotate. Now we can rotate in place. Is it ok to use a mobility advantage over a legged fencer?

       

      I’m sure there are other situations people have encountered, and if folks could make note of them in this thread that would be great. If they could also note how they were resolved, that would be wonderful. This is also a bit of an exercise in Inter Kingdom Anthropology (IKA). I think it would be interesting to see how other Kingdoms handle these situations.

       

      Finally, a general opinion of my own. Most situations arising from a fencing bout can be resolved by discussion between the fencers involved and the presiding marshal. Remember, the marshal can offer and opinion, but they cannot decide the result of a bout, that is between the fencers. I personally like to follow the guideline “Don’t be a dick.” This could be expressed in terms of chivalry and courtesy but the previous expression is short and sweet. If given the chance to win a bout by legal but questionable means or take a more honourable path, I hope fencers choose the later. Winning is great, but it is not the be all and end all.

       

      I hope this discussion will be informative, and give those who are working on the Marshal’s Handbook an idea of some of the unwritten conventions used in fencing in Ealdormere.

       

      Yours in Service

       

       

      Albrecht   

    • Larry Tremblay
      1) When I ve been the person delivering the fatal blow while losing my remaining arm, I ll ask my opponent if they d like to re-fight that last pass because
      Message 2 of 3 , May 31, 2014
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        1) When I've been the person delivering the fatal blow while losing my remaining arm, I'll ask my opponent if they'd like to re-fight that last pass because hey, more fencing.  If I took the killing blow, then I am dead unless my opponent wishes to say or do otherwise.

        2) A "point of honour" is just a very polite way of saying "I can still beat you with one hand behind my back".  If you get killed in that moment, you got what you deserved.  In such cases I'll take a step or two back to allow them to reset...along with a defensive guard so as to not get killed if they do something crafty.  

        3) The silliness of how we handle leg hits notwithstanding, I will always stand in front of seated opponent and use only forward/back and very slight side-to-side.  I already have enough of an advantage by virtue of still being mobile.

        Lars


        On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 11:42 AM, 'Eve and David' evedave1@... [E_Rapier] <E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
         

        Greetings!

         

        I’m starting this topic as a result of discussions with fencers at Crown Tourney. We have all encountered odd situations which aren’t necessarily covered by the SCA or Ealdormere rules for rapier combat. I have some examples and I was interested in what other fencers had encountered and how the situation was resolved. I’m hoping this thread will help provide some guidance to folks currently working on the new Marshal’s Handbook.

         

        Here are some of examples to get the ball rolling.

         

        1.       A fencer has lost an arm. During the course of the bout he delivers a good blow to his opponent’s head/torso but at the same time losses his remaining arm. Does the fencer who lost the limb win? Or do we consider it a loss for both and have a re-fight? It’s a rare situation and when I’ve encountered it before it’s been handled as a loss for both. One argument could be that the fencer who lost the limbs is still “alive” and thus wins. A counter argument could be that we don’t know the long term effects of a blow. Our rules don’t use terms like “death” or “kill”. A good blow to the head/throat/torso/groin/inside of the thighs incapacitates. It may have been fatal, it may not have been. The person may recover but they can’t continue the fight. Neither can the person who lost both limbs. Both are incapacitated. Is this too much rules lawyering? How have people handled this situation?

         

        2.       A fencer takes the limb of an opponent and, as a point of honour, gives up the corresponding limb of their own. While this is happening their opponent continues to attack. Is that kosher, or should time be allowed for the switch? In any case where a limb is lost, should there be a break in the action. It’s nice to give a fencer time to adjust but some fencers are capable of quickly switching hands and carrying on or delivering a blow as they drop to their knees.  Are they taking advantage of the pause made by their opponent to allow them to adjust?

         

         

        3.       Corkscrewing. At one time we had an unwritten convention that if we legged an opponent we would stay within 120 degrees of their front (or was in 180?). In the previous Ealdormere rule set we were fixed in place, we couldn’t rotate. Now we can rotate in place. Is it ok to use a mobility advantage over a legged fencer?

         

        I’m sure there are other situations people have encountered, and if folks could make note of them in this thread that would be great. If they could also note how they were resolved, that would be wonderful. This is also a bit of an exercise in Inter Kingdom Anthropology (IKA). I think it would be interesting to see how other Kingdoms handle these situations.

         

        Finally, a general opinion of my own. Most situations arising from a fencing bout can be resolved by discussion between the fencers involved and the presiding marshal. Remember, the marshal can offer and opinion, but they cannot decide the result of a bout, that is between the fencers. I personally like to follow the guideline “Don’t be a dick.” This could be expressed in terms of chivalry and courtesy but the previous expression is short and sweet. If given the chance to win a bout by legal but questionable means or take a more honourable path, I hope fencers choose the later. Winning is great, but it is not the be all and end all.

         

        I hope this discussion will be informative, and give those who are working on the Marshal’s Handbook an idea of some of the unwritten conventions used in fencing in Ealdormere.

         

        Yours in Service

         

         

        Albrecht   


      • thltoymaker
        ... From: Eve and David evedave1@rogers.com [E_Rapier] To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2014 11:42 AM Subject: [E_Rapier] The Unwritten
        Message 3 of 3 , May 31, 2014
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          ----- Original Message -----

          From: 'Eve and David' evedave1@... [E_Rapier]

          To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com

          Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2014 11:42 AM

          Subject: [E_Rapier] The Unwritten Rules of Ealdormere Fencing

           

            From Gerrard: Answers in Blue ( I hope )

           

          Greetings!

          I’m starting this topic as a result of discussions with fencers at Crown Tourney. We have all encountered odd situations which aren’t necessarily covered by the SCA or Ealdormere rules for rapier combat. I have some examples and I was interested in what other fencers had encountered and how the situation was resolved. I’m hoping this thread will help provide some guidance to folks currently working on the new Marshal’s Handbook.

          Here are some of examples to get the ball rolling.

          1.       A fencer has lost an arm. During the course of the bout he delivers a good blow to his opponent’s head/torso but at the same time losses his remaining arm. Does the fencer who lost the limb win? Or do we consider it a loss for both and have a re-fight? It’s a rare situation and when I’ve encountered it before it’s been handled as a loss for both. One argument could be that the fencer who lost the limbs is still “alive” and thus wins. A counter argument could be that we don’t know the long term effects of a blow. Our rules don’t use terms like “death” or “kill”. A good blow to the head/throat/torso/groin/inside of the thighs incapacitates. It may have been fatal, it may not have been. The person may recover but they can’t continue the fight. Neither can the person who lost both limbs. Both are incapacitated. Is this too much rules lawyering? How have people handled this situation?

          Immediately dead outweighs wounded wherein person could die later. Keeping it simple. Less conjecture , less debate, more play time. Dead is dead…

          2.       A fencer takes the limb of an opponent and, as a point of honour, gives up the corresponding limb of their own. While this is happening their opponent continues to attack. Is that kosher, or should time be allowed for the switch? In any case where a limb is lost, should there be a break in the action. It’s nice to give a fencer time to adjust but some fencers are capable of quickly switching hands and carrying on or delivering a blow as they drop to their knees.  Are they taking advantage of the pause made by their opponent to allow them to adjust?

          It is both opponents obligation to agree to all weapons and conditions prior to play. If they do not then the dual is to the death, as in I’m dueling for my life.

          The Marshal in charge may give direction; seek opinion, prior to anyone’s engagement. Listing these conditions for all prior to the tournaments beginnings.

          ( I generally step out of range when I've " Limbed " someone. )

          3.       Corkscrewing. At one time we had an unwritten convention that if we legged an opponent we would stay within 120 degrees of their front (or was in 180?). In the previous Ealdormere rule set we were fixed in place, we couldn’t rotate. Now we can rotate in place. Is it ok to use a mobility advantage over a legged fencer?

           Constant circling is not safe.  ( In my opinion ) However if I have legged an opponent with a really long sword, then I will definitely side step in such a manner as to shorten my opponent’s attack.  This also applies to standard length blades as well. I’m using a strategic advantage. Defensively and Safely.

          I’m sure there are other situations people have encountered, and if folks could make note of them in this thread that would be great. If they could also note how they were resolved, that would be wonderful. This is also a bit of an exercise in Inter Kingdom Anthropology (IKA). I think it would be interesting to see how other Kingdoms handle these situations.

          Finally, a general opinion of my own. Most situations arising from a fencing bout can be resolved by discussion between the fencers involved and the presiding marshal. Remember, the marshal can offer and opinion, but they cannot decide the result of a bout, that is between the fencers. I personally like to follow the guideline “Don’t be a dick.” This could be expressed in terms of chivalry and courtesy but the previous expression is short and sweet. If given the chance to win a bout by legal but questionable means or take a more honourable path, I hope fencers choose the later. Winning is great, but it is not the be all and end all.

          Marshal has an opinion … even if he has gray hair ….smiles

          I hope this discussion will be informative, and give those who are working on the Marshal’s Handbook an idea of some of the unwritten conventions used in fencing in Ealdormere.

          Yours in Service

          Albrecht   
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