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Trillies Moot Minutes

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  • Aaron Miedema
    Hi all.... I ve been holding off on this until everyone got back and recovered, in part at least, from Pennsic. So a short rundown on what was discussed at
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 26, 2013
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      Hi all....

      I've been holding off on this until everyone got back and recovered, in
      part at least, from Pennsic. So a short rundown on what was discussed at
      the Rapier Moot at Trillies.

      That and the next Rapier Moot is coming up September 14th at the Ealdormere
      Academy of Rapier in Bastile du Lac.

      If any of the participants remember things differently than I do please
      pipe up and correct me.

      As to everyone else... well this is all open for discussion, which , is
      kind of the point.


      Rapier Moot Minutes: June 29th 2013

      In attendance: Archibald, Jocelyn, Yoshi, Tadic, Raith, Brenna, Gerrard,
      Elaire, and Mid-Realm spy Rohesia.



      The format was free form, and so precise who said what precisely is not
      possible to report. If any of the participants in the moot recollect the
      discussion differently, please do add to this report.



      The directive given by the KRM was to discuss the potential use of the
      Society Chiurgeon Manual (SCM) definitions of �injury� and to discuss the
      ways in which these definitions are to be used in formalizing a policy on
      injury reports.



      The group the discussed the definition of responsibility in terms and
      injuries and reporting. Rapier marshals are to ensure safety, Chiurgeons to
      address first aid, and when a report is to be filed, both officers should
      file a report that focuses on the particular officer�s responsibility.



      The subject then went on to discussing the definitions of injuries and what
      needs to be reported. The group agreed that injury reports should be
      written when an injury requires the attention of a Chiurgeon or Medical
      professional. According to the Society Chiurgeons Manual these are defined
      as moderate and serious injuries.



      A major problem facing any injury reporting system is injuries that are
      identified or treated after the event, practice, or demo has ended. The
      obvious solution was to have injury reports filed not only by marshalls,
      but, by all fencers.



      This led to the observation that these injury reports could become a
      potential battlefield between rival egos and individuals.



      The idea that injury reports were not to be used to ascribe blame and
      punishment. They need to be used only for the purposes of research data
      for understanding the risks of what we do on the list and in practice.



      This led to the interesting idea of developing a �Conduct Report.� These
      reports would be filed when inappropriate behaviour occured on the list or
      at a practice. A conduct report would be initiated by any fencer, and
      require the endorsement of a marshall, or perhaps several. This is meant
      to avoid the conduct report being used as a venue for personal disputes and
      disagreements.



      The practice of the conduct report has always been a part of the
      marshallate, however, it has never been formalized. The suggestion is that
      this might be useful.



      This requires fencer to be both confident with understanding these reports
      and the concept of a�so to speak--�Fencer�s Bill of Rights� would not be
      amiss. This short document would layout that fencers have the
      right/obligation to report their injuries. They have the right not be
      treated poorly by fellow fencers and report such behaviour. They have the
      right to not be placed in a situation that they perceive as dangerous, etc�


      All in all, a good laid back discussion that, in my mind at least, cleared
      some air and brought some of closer together.

      --
      Aaron Miedema, B.F.A., B.A., M.A.
      Historian
      Historical Advisor for the Motion Picture *21 Brothers*
      http://www.21brothers.com/* Guiness Book of World Records* Holder for
      "Longest film shot in a single take."
      Author of *Bayonets and Blobsticks, The Canadian Experience of Close Combat
      1915-1918*, available from Legacy Books Press.
      http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html#Bayonet
      **


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Steve Bulger
      Gaaaahhhh! I have to say, if I as a random fencer had to fill out paperwork because I hurt myself playing a game for fun, my inclination to play that
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 26, 2013
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        Gaaaahhhh! I have to say, if I as a random fencer had to fill out
        paperwork because I hurt myself playing a game for fun, my inclination
        to play that particular game would go *WAY* down ... :-(

        Gerhard


        On 8/26/2013 6:08 PM, Aaron Miedema wrote:
        >
        > A major problem facing any injury reporting system is injuries that are
        > identified or treated after the event, practice, or demo has ended. The
        > obvious solution was to have injury reports filed not only by marshalls,
        > but, by all fencers.
        >
        >
      • Aaron Miedema
        @ Gerhard: Well, if you had to seek medical attention because of something you were doing for fun, would you not want to tell us about it so maybe we can
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 26, 2013
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          @ Gerhard: Well, if you had to seek medical attention because of something
          you were doing for fun, would you not want to tell us about it so maybe we
          can prevent it from happening again. But, if you don't want to go to the
          effort of helping us to help you, that is your choice.


          On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Steve Bulger <steve.bulger@...>wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Gaaaahhhh! I have to say, if I as a random fencer had to fill out
          > paperwork because I hurt myself playing a game for fun, my inclination
          > to play that particular game would go *WAY* down ... :-(
          >
          > Gerhard
          >
          >
          > On 8/26/2013 6:08 PM, Aaron Miedema wrote:
          > >
          > > A major problem facing any injury reporting system is injuries that are
          > > identified or treated after the event, practice, or demo has ended. The
          > > obvious solution was to have injury reports filed not only by marshalls,
          > > but, by all fencers.
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >



          --
          Aaron Miedema, B.F.A., B.A., M.A.
          Historian
          Historical Advisor for the Motion Picture *21 Brothers*
          http://www.21brothers.com/* Guiness Book of World Records* Holder for
          "Longest film shot in a single take."
          Author of *Bayonets and Blobsticks, The Canadian Experience of Close Combat
          1915-1918*, available from Legacy Books Press.
          http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html#Bayonet
          **


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Gavin Lusk
          I ve been working on an incident report form myself, that was intended to cover both conduct and injuries, but the points about having such reports become a
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 27, 2013
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            I've been working on an 'incident report' form myself, that was intended to
            cover both conduct and injuries, but the points about having such reports
            become a battle of egos or a dispute resolving mechanism has made me
            reconsider the idea of having one report form for both situations.

            I agree completely that we do not want injury reports to be assigning blame
            or pointing fingers. If a matter of conduct causes an injury, then the
            injury report will probably be examined in relation to discipline and so
            on, but I agree that the two should be kept separate.

            The idea of a 'fencer's bill of rights' is a great one. People should know
            what they can expect on the list (and off it) and have a mechanism for
            ensuring they get it. As part of such a system, should we include a means
            by which fencers (and marshals) can comment on, and file concerns about,
            the conduct of marshals? I'd be inclined to say this would be critical, but
            I'm interested in everyone's thoughts.

            G


            On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Aaron Miedema <govianus@...> wrote:

            > @ Gerhard: Well, if you had to seek medical attention because of something
            > you were doing for fun, would you not want to tell us about it so maybe we
            > can prevent it from happening again. But, if you don't want to go to the
            > effort of helping us to help you, that is your choice.
            >
            >
            > On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Steve Bulger <steve.bulger@...
            > >wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > > Gaaaahhhh! I have to say, if I as a random fencer had to fill out
            > > paperwork because I hurt myself playing a game for fun, my inclination
            > > to play that particular game would go *WAY* down ... :-(
            > >
            > > Gerhard
            > >
            > >
            > > On 8/26/2013 6:08 PM, Aaron Miedema wrote:
            > > >
            > > > A major problem facing any injury reporting system is injuries that are
            > > > identified or treated after the event, practice, or demo has ended. The
            > > > obvious solution was to have injury reports filed not only by
            > marshalls,
            > > > but, by all fencers.
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > Aaron Miedema, B.F.A., B.A., M.A.
            > Historian
            > Historical Advisor for the Motion Picture *21 Brothers*
            > http://www.21brothers.com/* Guiness Book of World Records* Holder for
            > "Longest film shot in a single take."
            > Author of *Bayonets and Blobsticks, The Canadian Experience of Close Combat
            > 1915-1918*, available from Legacy Books Press.
            > http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html#Bayonet
            > **
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • April Luchies
            Hi Folks, Are there any Marshall s heading up to Baron s Howe this weekend? I m going, and I d love to cross blades! Kersteken
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 27, 2013
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              Hi Folks,

              Are there any Marshall's heading up to Baron's Howe this weekend?

              I'm going, and I'd love to cross blades!

              Kersteken
            • John Enzinas
              Duke Finvar generally requests that people who want to do fencing at Baron s Howe contact him with the details. I m going and I m a marshal and I m happy to
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 27, 2013
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                Duke Finvar generally requests that people who want to do fencing at
                Baron's Howe contact him with the details. I'm going and I'm a marshal and
                I'm happy to contact him and see about running some fencing. I won't be
                playing myself.


                On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:32 AM, April Luchies <macnurseapril@...>wrote:

                > Hi Folks,
                >
                > Are there any Marshall's heading up to Baron's Howe this weekend?
                >
                > I'm going, and I'd love to cross blades!
                >
                > Kersteken
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • April Luchies
                Thanks Your Excellency! Kersteken Sent from my iPhone ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 27, 2013
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                  Thanks Your Excellency!

                  Kersteken

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On 2013-08-27, at 10:39 AM, John Enzinas <jenzinas@...> wrote:

                  > Duke Finvar generally requests that people who want to do fencing at
                  > Baron's Howe contact him with the details. I'm going and I'm a marshal and
                  > I'm happy to contact him and see about running some fencing. I won't be
                  > playing myself.
                  >
                  > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:32 AM, April Luchies <macnurseapril@...>wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hi Folks,
                  > >
                  > > Are there any Marshall's heading up to Baron's Howe this weekend?
                  > >
                  > > I'm going, and I'd love to cross blades!
                  > >
                  > > Kersteken
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • thltoymaker
                  Smiles ... some old guy and one of his cohorts is attending ! How many fencers are there usually ?
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 27, 2013
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                    Smiles ... some old guy and one of his cohorts is attending !
                    How many fencers are there usually ?

                    On 8/27/2013 10:32 AM, April Luchies wrote:
                    > Hi Folks,
                    >
                    > Are there any Marshall's heading up to Baron's Howe this weekend?
                    >
                    > I'm going, and I'd love to cross blades!
                    >
                    > Kersteken
                    >
                    >
                  • John Enzinas
                    Depends on the year. Sometimes there are none, and we ve had as high as 8 IIRC. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 27, 2013
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                      Depends on the year. Sometimes there are none, and we've had as high as 8
                      IIRC.


                      On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 2:05 PM, thltoymaker <thltoymaker@...> wrote:

                      > Smiles ... some old guy and one of his cohorts is attending !
                      > How many fencers are there usually ?
                      >
                      > On 8/27/2013 10:32 AM, April Luchies wrote:
                      > > Hi Folks,
                      > >
                      > > Are there any Marshall's heading up to Baron's Howe this weekend?
                      > >
                      > > I'm going, and I'd love to cross blades!
                      > >
                      > > Kersteken
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • John Enzinas
                      I ve confirmed with his Grace that he s happy to let me run some fencing. As I ll mostly be relaxing I will not be scheduling anything. If you want to fence,
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 27, 2013
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                        I've confirmed with his Grace that he's happy to let me run some fencing.
                        As I'll mostly be relaxing I will not be scheduling anything.
                        If you want to fence, come and find me and we'll work something out.
                        --g


                        On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 2:27 PM, John Enzinas <jenzinas@...> wrote:

                        > Depends on the year. Sometimes there are none, and we've had as high as 8
                        > IIRC.
                        >
                        >
                        > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 2:05 PM, thltoymaker <thltoymaker@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >> Smiles ... some old guy and one of his cohorts is attending !
                        >> How many fencers are there usually ?
                        >>
                        >> On 8/27/2013 10:32 AM, April Luchies wrote:
                        >> > Hi Folks,
                        >> >
                        >> > Are there any Marshall's heading up to Baron's Howe this weekend?
                        >> >
                        >> > I'm going, and I'd love to cross blades!
                        >> >
                        >> > Kersteken
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> ------------------------------------
                        >>
                        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • dafydd@rogers.com
                        We ll be there for at least Saturday, possibly Sunday as well (staying off-site). I haven t decided yet if I m going to bring my gear, it ll probably depend on
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 27, 2013
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                          We'll be there for at least Saturday, possibly Sunday as well (staying off-site). I haven't decided yet if I'm going to bring my gear, it'll probably depend on the weather forcast. Otherwise I'm planning on setting up a portable leatherworking shop under the tent and doing some catch-up on some of my projects.

                          Dafydd

                          --- In E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com, April Luchies <macnurseapril@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Folks,
                          >
                          > Are there any Marshall's heading up to Baron's Howe this weekend?
                          >
                          > I'm going, and I'd love to cross blades!
                          >
                          > Kersteken
                          >
                        • April Luchies
                          Bring your gear! Bring your gear!!! Sent from my iPhone ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 27, 2013
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                            Bring your gear! Bring your gear!!!

                            Sent from my iPhone

                            On 2013-08-27, at 3:21 PM, "dafydd@..." <dafydd@...> wrote:

                            > We'll be there for at least Saturday, possibly Sunday as well (staying off-site). I haven't decided yet if I'm going to bring my gear, it'll probably depend on the weather forcast. Otherwise I'm planning on setting up a portable leatherworking shop under the tent and doing some catch-up on some of my projects.
                            >
                            > Dafydd
                            >
                            > --- In E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com, April Luchies <macnurseapril@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Folks,
                            > >
                            > > Are there any Marshall's heading up to Baron's Howe this weekend?
                            > >
                            > > I'm going, and I'd love to cross blades!
                            > >
                            > > Kersteken
                            > >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Tara England
                            Excellent summary my friend, I have one correction, one clarification and one suggestion. Correction - I believe that the conduct report needed to be endorsed
                            Message 13 of 13 , Aug 29, 2013
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                              Excellent summary my friend,

                              I have one correction, one clarification and one suggestion.
                              Correction - I believe that the conduct report needed to be endorsed
                              only by two individuals not necessarily a marshal. This was for
                              situations where the marshals conduct was unbecoming.

                              Clarification - I think it is worth stating that the injury reports
                              are non prejudicial. Accidents do happen even when everyone is being
                              careful. We all felt that this was important. If an injury was caused
                              by dangerous behaviour then this is when a conduct report would be
                              needed. So you could have a situation that is a true accident, which
                              generates an injury report alone. In another instance, an injury is
                              caused by someone's dangerous behaviour, in which case an injury
                              report plus a conduct report would be needed.

                              Suggestion - In light of Gerhard's valid point that everybody hates
                              paperwork, perhaps what is needed is an injury report (for moderate to
                              severe) and an injury log. The injury log could be simply a journal
                              type book (heck even a facebook page), where you simply write down
                              your name, date and type of injury.

                              For example:

                              Ellaire de Troyes, August 17 2012, bruise to right forearm.

                              If we decide to do a study of the safety of certain disciplines, then
                              these log books could become the source of raw data.


                              Thanks for taking on the responsibility of chairing the meeting. It
                              was really productive.

                              Tara
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