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RE: [E_Rapier] Peerage End Discussion Please

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  • David Biggs
    Nope - I m still in Ottawa. I ve been spending weekends doing a number of things for work and trying to get other projects done. I ll be headed back south in
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 18, 2012
      Nope - I'm still in Ottawa. I've been spending weekends doing a number of things for work and trying to get other projects done. I'll be headed back south in August.

      aeron

      > To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com
      > From: govianus@...
      > Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 17:35:40 -0500
      > Subject: Re: [E_Rapier] Peerage End Discussion Please
      >
      > Thank you for your input Aeron, it was well stated, even if the formatting
      > was a little off. =)
      > Rumour has it you have gone south again, is this correct?
      >
      > Archibald
      > On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 2:24 PM, David Biggs <davidabiggs@...>wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > So - uh - when I pressed 'send' this post was broken up into manageable
      > > paragraphs separated by spaces. Sorry about what resulted. Blea
      > > aeron
      > >
      > > > To: e_rapier@yahoogroups.com
      > > > From: davidabiggs@...
      > > > Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 13:08:46 -0500
      > > > Subject: RE: [E_Rapier] Peerage End Discussion Please
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I've been avoiding this discussion because I am dead neutral about the
      > > idea of a rapier peerage. But in an effort to add a viewpoint which I
      > > haven't seen yet, I'll give a pro and a connected con:
      > > > Pro:Those involved in rapier have been marginalized in the SCA since the
      > > beginning. There is, in my experience, one kingdom where this is no longer
      > > the case, and a few where it's *almost* no longer the case. But in the
      > > majority of the SCA, many of those who wind up in charge of a kingdom still
      > > look down on fencing and fencers in general. One of the ways to have an
      > > impact on the game and to help it is to recognize those people who are
      > > leading the community and to give them the power to influence those playing
      > > the game. In Ansteorra, when a new White Scarf is invited into the circle,
      > > that person becomes the model of what to strive for for most who are
      > > interested in such things. For people like Aaron it doesn't affect his
      > > goals or efforts much, because he's focused on much more internal
      > > validation, or, in some cases, external to the SCA validation. Nonetheless,
      > > *most* people in the SCA play in such a manner that they often look up to
      > > those recognized as leaders This gives the award grantee some level of
      > > social power. Most people really do consider that awardee as the
      > > representative of the rapier community.
      > > > One of my tests when considering whether I'd support a new candidate for
      > > a White Scarf was a two part test - the first part was "the ambassador
      > > test." Would I be ok with sending this person off to a war as the sole
      > > representative of the community in my kingdom? I consider what they are
      > > like and how they come across on and off the field. The second part is "the
      > > net effect test." I try to judge what it would be like if every new White
      > > Scarf made in the future was exactly like this candidate. When I consider
      > > this test, it often opened my eyes to traits I'd been missing - both
      > > positive and negative - in the candidate. What I'm getting at, though, is
      > > that these tests were based on the very real effect of recognizing a new
      > > leader - this leader is then emulated by many and can steer the direction
      > > of the reputation of the circle as a whole. If several "hot blades" are
      > > elevated in a row who don't care about anything but winning, that affects
      > > the reputation of the circle, and the direction in which it is headed.
      > > > This brings up another issue - whether the leaders have a say. In some
      > > kingdoms, the terminal award holders have a say in who gets chosen, and in
      > > at least a few, the crown *rarely* goes against their wishes. Much like
      > > Peerages in many kingdoms. Most kingdoms don't enjoy this level of trust.
      > > > As I said a few days ago, the problems I have seen in communities is a
      > > lack of leadership and integration. When there's no obvious leader in an
      > > area, people do their own things, and this sometimes leads to
      > > unsafe/unacceptable behaviour, which hurts the community's reputation and
      > > integration.
      > > > Now, you can't force leadership or integration, but you can certainly
      > > keep it from happening when it *is* ready to blossom, so to speak, and many
      > > kingdoms are still doing that. Thus, I can argue that creating a peerage
      > > for the rapier community gives a known world recognition to the game and
      > > forces a more substantial role for the leaders to fill, generating more
      > > responsibility and acceptance for those leaders so elevated, after the
      > > initial years of resistance. (Pelicans and Laurels weren't accepted by all
      > > immediately either, so it will probably happen that there will be initial
      > > resistance, and then it'll settle in after several years)
      > > > Con:The primary way to marginalize the communities (after those in
      > > charge have recognized that it's not going away, and it affects a large
      > > portion of the populous) has been to create a terminal award that is at
      > > best a grant level, and then to fill it with weak leaders or
      > > counter-productive ones (read: goobers or flunkies that will ruin the game
      > > or that few will follow). What this demonstrates is that an award is only
      > > as good as those who receive it. So making a peerage work depends ENTIRELY
      > > upon who gets elevated. This actually makes a peerage a safer bet for the
      > > rapier community, as peers are unlikely to debase their own level of
      > > acceptance en masse (trust me - some will, but then that's nothing new),
      > > but nonetheless, what it means is that the future path of rapier will be
      > > set by those who are initially elevated into the rapier peerage. If a bunch
      > > of fast blades who care nothing for historical accuracy are elevated, then
      > > that will become the path of the highest level award, and it will deviate
      > > dramatically from those who have received laurels for historical combat.
      > > This will mean future generations will worry more about how much they win
      > > and less about the historical aspect. If it is, on the other hand, judged
      > > that you need to demonstrate some knowledge of historical combat, this will
      > > set it off against the armoured community even more, and will negate the
      > > need for a laurel in historical combat, and those who "just like fighting"
      > > will be marginalized because they'll have less chance of getting recognized
      > > for their leadership.
      > > > Thus, creating a rapier laurel may be a loose cannon idea that can be
      > > sabotaged by the kingdoms who are bristling about it.
      > > > Further, I have been looking at this for years, and I can't see ANY good
      > > or fair ways to start elevating people into a rapier peerage. Since this is
      > > the key to the success of the idea, it ranks as a CON to me.
      > > >
      > > > Now, these same arguments apply to other forms of martial activity. But
      > > currently we're discussing rapier combatants, because the BOD has decided
      > > that they make a large enough impact on the game to be warranted the
      > > possible attention.
      > > >
      > > > aeron harper(WSA, OL)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > From: evedave1@...
      > > > > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 06:52:11 -0800
      > > > > Subject: Re: [E_Rapier] Peerage End Discussion Please
      > > > >
      > > > > Greetings!
      > > > >
      > > > > I still think there a lot of things that need to be discussed in
      > > regards to a possible rapier peerage, beyond whether it should exist or
      > > not. Also, only a fraction of the people on this list have weighed in with
      > > an opinion, and I would like to for them to express their opinions and
      > > thoughts. I believe there is room for further discussion. New peerages are
      > > momentous things that affect our Society to its core, and sober discussion
      > > of the issues is important. If the fencers of Ealdormere wish to have any
      > > influence over the form a rapier peerage might take, this is a good place
      > > to express those ideas. I know some have expressed interest in being part
      > > of the committee looking into the peerage question, and reading the posts
      > > here would give them food for thought in their deliberations.
      > > > >
      > > > > Yours in Service
      > > > >
      > > > > Albrecht
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ________________________________
      > > > > From: thltoymaker <thltoymaker@...>
      > > > > To:
      > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 9:20:59 AM
      > > > > Subject: [E_Rapier] Peerage End Discussion Please
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > From Gerrard:
      > > > > By now we know who is in favour and whom isn't.
      > > > > Those in favour will not be swayed.
      > > > > Those against will not be swayed.
      > > > > So I ask that we end this debate.
      > > > > Plus to that end I wish to offer up my sincere apologies for any
      > > > > offending comments I made.
      > > > > So Please fingers down lets carry on in life.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ------------------------------------
      > > > >
      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ------------------------------------
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Aaron Miedema, B.F.A., B.A., M.A.
      > Historian
      > Author of *Bayonets and Blobsticks, The Canadian Experience of Close Combat
      > 1915-1918*, available from Legacy Books Press.
      > http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html#Bayonet
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >


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