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New Blade Rules

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  • L. Tremblay
    We ve got a change to the rules regarding permitted blades. In a nutshell, the infamous Appendix 5 (list of approved blades) is no longer in force as of now.
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 15, 2012
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      We've got a change to the rules regarding permitted blades. In a
      nutshell, the infamous Appendix 5 (list of approved blades) is no longer
      in force as of now. In its place are some changes to the society Rapier
      Combat Handbook, which I have included the bulk of below (this can be
      found complete and with nice formatting here:
      http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/)

      This is in effect in Ealdormere as of now. I will (finally) update the
      Ealdormere rules to reflect this change as well as the previously passed
      gorget change and get that out to everyone as soon as possible. In the
      meantime, marshals please make sure that your groups are informed.

      Lars

      =============================

      Weapons and Parrying Devices
      Section 2. Blades

      A. In order to be acceptable for use in rapier combat, it must meet
      certain criteria. If a blade does not meet the criteria established
      below, it may not be used for any form of rapier combat in the Society,
      unless it is first approved by the Deputy Society Marshal for Rapier
      Combat and will be considered on a case-by-case basis. If a blade meets
      the criteria below, it is considered acceptable for use by default
      unless specifically banned. A list of approved exceptions and banned
      blades may be found at:
      http://sca.org/officers/marshal/docs/rapier/bladetypes.pdf (Lars: Note
      that this has not yet been updated.)
      i. For light rapier: Foil, epee, double-wide epee, and musketeer blades
      from established commercial manufacturers are acceptable for use.
      ii. For heavy rapier, and cut and thrust rapier:
      a. Blades must be made of steel
      b. Blades must be no longer than 48" as measured from the tip to the top
      of the tang (i.e. where the tang and forte meet)
      c. Blades must be reasonably flexible. Heavy rapier blades must flex at
      least 1 inch (25 mm) when tested per the procedures in the Appendix,
      section 1.B. Dagger blades (those under 18 inches), and cut and thrust
      blades must flex at least 1/2 inch (12.5 mm). Any blade 18 inches or
      longer, being used in melee combat, must flex at least 1 inch (25 mm).

      Part B. Continues as before
      Based on test data, this will effect very few of the blades currently in
      use, but allow additional blades to be used.

      Update to Appendix 1B
      The only change is doubling the weights and the distances to be
      measured, to make it a little easier to determine acceptable flexibility.

      B. BLADE FLEXIBILITY TESTING
      To determine if a weapon meets the standard of being "reasonably
      flexible": Hold weapon parallel to the ground, supporting the handle
      against table or bench if necessary. Hang a 6-ounce weight (170 grams)
      one inch (25 mm) distance from the tip. If the blade of a dagger (out to
      18 inches blade length) flexes at least 1/2 inch (12.5 mm) the blade is
      reasonably flexible. For a heavy rapier blade (18" or longer), the blade
      must flex at least 1 inch (25 mm). For use in cut and thrust rapier, the
      blade must flex at least 1/2 inch (12.5 mm). Any blade 18 inches or
      longer, being used in melee combat, must flex at least 1 inch (25 mm).

      Replacement of Appendix 5 – Permitted and Restricted Blade Types

      The purpose of this list is to serve as an appendix to the Rapier Combat
      Handbook indicating blade types that are specifically allowed or forbidden.
      Section 2 of the Rapier Combat Handbook lists criteria under which a
      blade may be used in Society rapier combat without further review. This
      appendix lists blade types that have been reviewed by the Society Rapier
      Marshal's office, and either found to be acceptable for use in the
      Society, or that may not be used in the Society. Note that while
      individual Kingdom rules may not allow a blade that is not specifically
      approved by the Society, Kingdoms may restrict the use of certain types
      of blades that have been approved by Society. Consult the rules for your
      Kingdom to determine if a particular blade is approved for use.
      Any blade listed here must still pass the flexibility testing described
      in section 1.B of the appendix to the Rapier Combat Handbook.

      (Lars: I have omitted the list in this message; you can view it at
      http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/ if you're interested.
      The only thing that is relevant in Ealdormere is a ban on Bud K fencing
      blades.)
    • thltoymaker
      From Gerrard: Well since I m so good at stirring the pot !! ;-) Intermittently I have heard some discussion on blade matching. I believe ( stressing the word
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 16, 2012
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        From Gerrard: Well since I'm so good at stirring the pot !! ;-)

        Intermittently I have heard some discussion on blade matching.
        I believe ( stressing the word believe ) that this stems from some of
        the cross over blades.
        Those blades that qualify for both Heavy and Cut and Thrust.
        I myself cringe when I come up against a double wide diamond when all
        I have is my skinny ( in comparison ) oval blade.
        I have just recently seen in real life a very wide curved Katana
        which has ( guessing ) probably close to 3 times the mass of my
        Darkwoods and can be held by two hands.
        Currently I'm not playing against this blade.
        I say blade and am not including the person using it as I have no
        issues with that aspect.
        I'm looking solely at mass and physics.

        Mass matching ( within say within 1.5 times of mass ) would make it
        far more simpler than say type of blade matching.
        Just a visual would suffice .. we needn't get out or mass
        spectrometers / scales / etc ...!

        Plus ....

        >Snip
        >http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/)
        Hmmm Not opening for me !
      • John Enzinas
        Gerrard, You played against my curved blade at SvM. I don t know if it is the one you are talking about, but it can give you a sense of how such a combat would
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 16, 2012
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          Gerrard,

          You played against my curved blade at SvM. I don't know if it is the
          one you are talking about, but it can give you a sense of how such a
          combat would play out.

          --g

          On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:10 AM, thltoymaker <thltoymaker@...> wrote:
          >  From Gerrard: Well since I'm so good at stirring the pot !!   ;-)
          >
          > Intermittently I have heard some discussion on blade matching.
          > I believe ( stressing the word believe ) that this stems from some of
          > the cross over blades.
          > Those blades that qualify for both Heavy and Cut and Thrust.
          > I myself cringe when I come up against a double wide diamond when all
          > I have is my skinny ( in comparison ) oval blade.
          > I have just recently seen in real life a very wide curved Katana
          > which has ( guessing ) probably close to 3 times the mass of my
          > Darkwoods and can be held by two hands.
          > Currently I'm not playing against this blade.
          > I say blade and am not including the person using it as I have no
          > issues with that aspect.
          > I'm looking solely at mass and physics.
          >
          > Mass matching  ( within say within 1.5 times of mass  ) would make it
          > far more simpler than say type of blade matching.
          > Just a visual would suffice .. we needn't get out or mass
          > spectrometers / scales  / etc ...!
          >
          > Plus ....
          >
          >>Snip
          >>http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/)
          > Hmmm Not opening for me !
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • thltoymaker
          Yes I did ...using my wider Darkwood not my oval . Plus this katana makes that one look skinny. Its very beefy !
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 16, 2012
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            Yes I did ...using my wider Darkwood not my oval .
            Plus this katana makes that one look skinny.
            Its very beefy !

            At 10:17 AM 2/16/2012, you wrote:
            >
            >
            >Gerrard,
            >
            >You played against my curved blade at SvM. I don't know if it is the
            >one you are talking about, but it can give you a sense of how such a
            >combat would play out.
            >
            >--g
            >
            >On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:10 AM, thltoymaker
            ><<mailto:thltoymaker%40cogeco.ca>thltoymaker@...> wrote:
            > > From Gerrard: Well since I'm so good at stirring the pot !! ;-)
            > >
            > > Intermittently I have heard some discussion on blade matching.
            > > I believe ( stressing the word believe ) that this stems from some of
            > > the cross over blades.
            > > Those blades that qualify for both Heavy and Cut and Thrust.
            > > I myself cringe when I come up against a double wide diamond when all
            > > I have is my skinny ( in comparison ) oval blade.
            > > I have just recently seen in real life a very wide curved Katana
            > > which has ( guessing ) probably close to 3 times the mass of my
            > > Darkwoods and can be held by two hands.
            > > Currently I'm not playing against this blade.
            > > I say blade and am not including the person using it as I have no
            > > issues with that aspect.
            > > I'm looking solely at mass and physics.
            > >
            > > Mass matching ( within say within 1.5 times of mass ) would make it
            > > far more simpler than say type of blade matching.
            > > Just a visual would suffice .. we needn't get out or mass
            > > spectrometers / scales / etc ...!
            > >
            > > Plus ....
            > >
            > >>Snip
            > >><http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/ra
            > pier/>http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/)
            > > Hmmm Not opening for me !
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • John Enzinas
            OK, so for the record, it s a Grosse Messer (renissance german big knife) not a Katana. If you think that s beefy, wait till you see the fancy one which I
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 16, 2012
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              OK, so for the record, it's a Grosse Messer (renissance german big
              knife) not a Katana. If you think that's beefy, wait till you see the
              fancy one which I think the new rules will allow...

              Regardless, I don't think it gives me any real advantage. Did you?
              I've also fenced with heavier 2 handed swords against rapiers. I
              didn't feel any real advantage (at least without cutting play).

              Do we really need a rule?

              --g

              On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 11:56 AM, thltoymaker <thltoymaker@...> wrote:
              > Yes I did ...using my wider Darkwood not my oval .
              >  Plus this katana makes that one look skinny.
              > Its very beefy !
              >
              > At 10:17 AM 2/16/2012, you wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >>Gerrard,
              >>
              >>You played against my curved blade at SvM. I don't know if it is the
              >>one you are talking about, but it can give you a sense of how such a
              >>combat would play out.
              >>
              >>--g
              >>
              >>On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:10 AM, thltoymaker
              >><<mailto:thltoymaker%40cogeco.ca>thltoymaker@...> wrote:
              >> >  From Gerrard: Well since I'm so good at stirring the pot !!   ;-)
              >> >
              >> > Intermittently I have heard some discussion on blade matching.
              >> > I believe ( stressing the word believe ) that this stems from some of
              >> > the cross over blades.
              >> > Those blades that qualify for both Heavy and Cut and Thrust.
              >> > I myself cringe when I come up against a double wide diamond when all
              >> > I have is my skinny ( in comparison ) oval blade.
              >> > I have just recently seen in real life a very wide curved Katana
              >> > which has ( guessing ) probably close to 3 times the mass of my
              >> > Darkwoods and can be held by two hands.
              >> > Currently I'm not playing against this blade.
              >> > I say blade and am not including the person using it as I have no
              >> > issues with that aspect.
              >> > I'm looking solely at mass and physics.
              >> >
              >> > Mass matching  ( within say within 1.5 times of mass  ) would make it
              >> > far more simpler than say type of blade matching.
              >> > Just a visual would suffice .. we needn't get out or mass
              >> > spectrometers / scales  / etc ...!
              >> >
              >> > Plus ....
              >> >
              >> >>Snip
              >> >><http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/ra
              >> pier/>http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/)
              >> > Hmmm Not opening for me !
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > ------------------------------------
              >> >
              >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • John Wyatt
              I think Gerrard is more concerned about the damage incurred by the skinnier blade, rather than the competitive advantage within the bout.  That was the heart
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 16, 2012
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                I think Gerrard is more concerned about the damage incurred by the skinnier blade, rather than the competitive advantage within the bout.  That was the heart of some discussions he and I have had in the past.  Of the blades I personally own, my Zen Warrior blades (including the T03 Rapier Blade) receive a higher percentage of nicks, etc. when paired against the heavier blades.
                 
                Do we need a rule?  Not sure - in general an experienced person that owns different options can easily make the decision for themself.  However, someone less experienced and usually with little or no other blade option might try pairing an oval schlager against a blade that was originally just C&T qualified.
                 
                Mateo


                ________________________________
                From: John Enzinas <jenzinas@...>
                To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 12:05 PM
                Subject: Re: [E_Rapier] New Blade Rules


                 
                OK, so for the record, it's a Grosse Messer (renissance german big
                knife) not a Katana. If you think that's beefy, wait till you see the
                fancy one which I think the new rules will allow...

                Regardless, I don't think it gives me any real advantage. Did you?
                I've also fenced with heavier 2 handed swords against rapiers. I
                didn't feel any real advantage (at least without cutting play).

                Do we really need a rule?

                --g

                On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 11:56 AM, thltoymaker <thltoymaker@...> wrote:
                > Yes I did ...using my wider Darkwood not my oval .
                >  Plus this katana makes that one look skinny.
                > Its very beefy !
                >
                > At 10:17 AM 2/16/2012, you wrote:
                >>
                >>
                >>Gerrard,
                >>
                >>You played against my curved blade at SvM. I don't know if it is the
                >>one you are talking about, but it can give you a sense of how such a
                >>combat would play out.
                >>
                >>--g
                >>
                >>On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:10 AM, thltoymaker
                >><<mailto:thltoymaker%40cogeco.ca>thltoymaker@...> wrote:
                >> >  From Gerrard: Well since I'm so good at stirring the pot !!   ;-)
                >> >
                >> > Intermittently I have heard some discussion on blade matching.
                >> > I believe ( stressing the word believe ) that this stems from some of
                >> > the cross over blades.
                >> > Those blades that qualify for both Heavy and Cut and Thrust.
                >> > I myself cringe when I come up against a double wide diamond when all
                >> > I have is my skinny ( in comparison ) oval blade.
                >> > I have just recently seen in real life a very wide curved Katana
                >> > which has ( guessing ) probably close to 3 times the mass of my
                >> > Darkwoods and can be held by two hands.
                >> > Currently I'm not playing against this blade.
                >> > I say blade and am not including the person using it as I have no
                >> > issues with that aspect.
                >> > I'm looking solely at mass and physics.
                >> >
                >> > Mass matching  ( within say within 1.5 times of mass  ) would make it
                >> > far more simpler than say type of blade matching.
                >> > Just a visual would suffice .. we needn't get out or mass
                >> > spectrometers / scales  / etc ...!
                >> >
                >> > Plus ....
                >> >
                >> >>Snip
                >> >><http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/ra
                >> pier/>http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/)
                >> > Hmmm Not opening for me !
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > ------------------------------------
                >> >
                >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • thltoymaker
                Oh Im not worried about advantage. My concern is strictly little mass meets large beefy mass especially when large beefy mass can be braced by two hands. Its
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 16, 2012
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                  Oh Im not worried about advantage.
                  My concern is strictly little mass meets large
                  beefy mass especially when large beefy mass can be braced by two hands.
                  Its not the person its strictly the physics.

                  I dislike more rules. Perhaps falls under common sense ??

                  At 12:05 PM 2/16/2012, you wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >OK, so for the record, it's a Grosse Messer (renissance german big
                  >knife) not a Katana. If you think that's beefy, wait till you see the
                  >fancy one which I think the new rules will allow...
                  >
                  >Regardless, I don't think it gives me any real advantage. Did you?
                  >I've also fenced with heavier 2 handed swords against rapiers. I
                  >didn't feel any real advantage (at least without cutting play).
                  >
                  >Do we really need a rule?
                  >
                  >--g
                  >
                  >On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 11:56 AM, thltoymaker
                  ><<mailto:thltoymaker%40cogeco.ca>thltoymaker@...> wrote:
                  > > Yes I did ...using my wider Darkwood not my oval .
                  > > Plus this katana makes that one look skinny.
                  > > Its very beefy !
                  > >
                  > > At 10:17 AM 2/16/2012, you wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>Gerrard,
                  > >>
                  > >>You played against my curved blade at SvM. I don't know if it is the
                  > >>one you are talking about, but it can give you a sense of how such a
                  > >>combat would play out.
                  > >>
                  > >>--g
                  > >>
                  > >>On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:10 AM, thltoymaker
                  > >><<mailto:thltoymaker%40cogeco.ca><mailto:thlto
                  > ymaker%40cogeco.ca>thltoymaker@...> wrote:
                  > >> > From Gerrard: Well since I'm so good at stirring the pot !! ;-)
                  > >> >
                  > >> > Intermittently I have heard some discussion on blade matching.
                  > >> > I believe ( stressing the word believe ) that this stems from some of
                  > >> > the cross over blades.
                  > >> > Those blades that qualify for both Heavy and Cut and Thrust.
                  > >> > I myself cringe when I come up against a double wide diamond when all
                  > >> > I have is my skinny ( in comparison ) oval blade.
                  > >> > I have just recently seen in real life a very wide curved Katana
                  > >> > which has ( guessing ) probably close to 3 times the mass of my
                  > >> > Darkwoods and can be held by two hands.
                  > >> > Currently I'm not playing against this blade.
                  > >> > I say blade and am not including the person using it as I have no
                  > >> > issues with that aspect.
                  > >> > I'm looking solely at mass and physics.
                  > >> >
                  > >> > Mass matching ( within say within 1.5 times of mass ) would make it
                  > >> > far more simpler than say type of blade matching.
                  > >> > Just a visual would suffice .. we needn't get out or mass
                  > >> > spectrometers / scales / etc ...!
                  > >> >
                  > >> > Plus ....
                  > >> >
                  > >> >>Snip
                  > >> >><<http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/comba
                  > t/ra>http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/ra
                  > >>
                  > pier/><http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/>http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/)
                  > >> > Hmmm Not opening for me !
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> > ------------------------------------
                  > >> >
                  > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • L. Tremblay
                  The stresses we subject our swords to are nowhere near what would be required to do more than nick edges. The only way a blade is going to outright fail at
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 16, 2012
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                    The stresses we subject our swords to are nowhere near what would be
                    required to do more than nick edges. The only way a blade is going to
                    outright fail at impact is if there are flaws in the metal's structure.
                    If that's the case, the blade is going to fail at some point regardless;
                    it's just a matter of when.

                    Lars

                    On 16/02/2012 10:10 AM, thltoymaker wrote:
                    >
                    > From Gerrard: Well since I'm so good at stirring the pot !! ;-)
                    >
                    > Intermittently I have heard some discussion on blade matching.
                    > I believe ( stressing the word believe ) that this stems from some of
                    > the cross over blades.
                    > Those blades that qualify for both Heavy and Cut and Thrust.
                    > I myself cringe when I come up against a double wide diamond when all
                    > I have is my skinny ( in comparison ) oval blade.
                    > I have just recently seen in real life a very wide curved Katana
                    > which has ( guessing ) probably close to 3 times the mass of my
                    > Darkwoods and can be held by two hands.
                    > Currently I'm not playing against this blade.
                    > I say blade and am not including the person using it as I have no
                    > issues with that aspect.
                    > I'm looking solely at mass and physics.
                    >
                    > Mass matching ( within say within 1.5 times of mass ) would make it
                    > far more simpler than say type of blade matching.
                    > Just a visual would suffice .. we needn't get out or mass
                    > spectrometers / scales / etc ...!
                    >
                    > Plus ....
                    >
                    > >Snip
                    > >http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/)
                    > Hmmm Not opening for me !
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • thltoymaker
                    A valid point ! However with greatest respect I think that I shall continue matching blades when and where I can. No harm in it !
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 16, 2012
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                      A valid point ! However with greatest respect I
                      think that I shall continue matching blades when and where I can.
                      No harm in it !

                      At 12:45 PM 2/16/2012, you wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >The stresses we subject our swords to are nowhere near what would be
                      >required to do more than nick edges. The only way a blade is going to
                      >outright fail at impact is if there are flaws in the metal's structure.
                      >If that's the case, the blade is going to fail at some point regardless;
                      >it's just a matter of when.
                      >
                      >Lars
                      >
                      >On 16/02/2012 10:10 AM, thltoymaker wrote:
                      > >
                      > > From Gerrard: Well since I'm so good at stirring the pot !! ;-)
                      > >
                      > > Intermittently I have heard some discussion on blade matching.
                      > > I believe ( stressing the word believe ) that this stems from some of
                      > > the cross over blades.
                      > > Those blades that qualify for both Heavy and Cut and Thrust.
                      > > I myself cringe when I come up against a double wide diamond when all
                      > > I have is my skinny ( in comparison ) oval blade.
                      > > I have just recently seen in real life a very wide curved Katana
                      > > which has ( guessing ) probably close to 3 times the mass of my
                      > > Darkwoods and can be held by two hands.
                      > > Currently I'm not playing against this blade.
                      > > I say blade and am not including the person using it as I have no
                      > > issues with that aspect.
                      > > I'm looking solely at mass and physics.
                      > >
                      > > Mass matching ( within say within 1.5 times of mass ) would make it
                      > > far more simpler than say type of blade matching.
                      > > Just a visual would suffice .. we needn't get out or mass
                      > > spectrometers / scales / etc ...!
                      > >
                      > > Plus ....
                      > >
                      > > >Snip
                      > > ><http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/r
                      > apier/>http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/)
                      > > Hmmm Not opening for me !
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                    • Aaron Miedema
                      I ve been pondering this new rule for a bit. And I understand and applaud the administrative simplicity of it, I wonder if there has been more than one issue
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 20, 2012
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                        I've been pondering this new rule for a bit. And I understand and applaud
                        the administrative simplicity of it, I wonder if there has been more than
                        one issue opend by the change. People may have already considered this and
                        developed policy on this, but, I am contemplating what is inherently
                        visible in the rule itself.

                        This rule is guaged for Heavy Rapier by measuring flexbility, and this is
                        needed. It is also guaged to permit the growing interest in longswords and
                        other two handed weapons, and because of this, redefinition was required.

                        However, this guage does not consider the precussive cut potential of these
                        weapons. For example, an Albion Meyer Longsword is likely to pass the flex
                        test defined by the rules, but, I know from my experience, outside the
                        SCA, that I'd be leary of facing off against one without fairly significant
                        additions to C and T minimum armour (namely Guants and Padding on the
                        arms). I would suggest that these heavier weapons present the
                        possibility of having to file a significant number of injury reports.

                        There is also a potential issue with the weapons that can be used in Heavy
                        Rapier. I have already had questions asked about the validity of a Hanwei
                        Practical Norman Sword for use in both C and T and Heavy Rapier. Two
                        handed weapons in Heavy Rapier are much easier to keep with the tip in line
                        and are likely of less concern. But, one handed weapons that are pre-16th
                        C reproductions are likely to have a balance point further forward than
                        Rapiers and likely to more of a tendency to move in a more circular
                        fashion, leading to the potential for heavy accidental percussive contact.
                        Although this is just a hunch on my part.

                        Now, that being said, it is up to the attacker to maintain the force of the
                        hit. There are two ways of maintaining this, pre-emptive (armour and blade
                        policy, as well as, training and authorization) and reactive (injury
                        reports and disciplinary procedures). I know that my response to these
                        heavier blades types is to armour up, and I have the experience and
                        equipment from what I do with HEMA/WMA to know and do this. But, that
                        cannot be assumed to be universal knowledge within the SCA. In general, I
                        would perfer to see more use of pre-emptive techniques than reactive. I'm
                        not interested in either hurting people or filing injury reports, nor do I
                        want people to question Rapier on the grounds of safety.

                        So, anyone have any thoughts on these potential concerns?

                        Time to find a six ounce weight and start testing things just to satisfy my
                        own curiousity. =)

                        Archibald
                        On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 2:19 PM, thltoymaker <thltoymaker@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > A valid point ! However with greatest respect I
                        > think that I shall continue matching blades when and where I can.
                        > No harm in it !
                        >
                        >
                        > At 12:45 PM 2/16/2012, you wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >The stresses we subject our swords to are nowhere near what would be
                        > >required to do more than nick edges. The only way a blade is going to
                        > >outright fail at impact is if there are flaws in the metal's structure.
                        > >If that's the case, the blade is going to fail at some point regardless;
                        > >it's just a matter of when.
                        > >
                        > >Lars
                        > >
                        > >On 16/02/2012 10:10 AM, thltoymaker wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > From Gerrard: Well since I'm so good at stirring the pot !! ;-)
                        > > >
                        > > > Intermittently I have heard some discussion on blade matching.
                        > > > I believe ( stressing the word believe ) that this stems from some of
                        > > > the cross over blades.
                        > > > Those blades that qualify for both Heavy and Cut and Thrust.
                        > > > I myself cringe when I come up against a double wide diamond when all
                        > > > I have is my skinny ( in comparison ) oval blade.
                        > > > I have just recently seen in real life a very wide curved Katana
                        > > > which has ( guessing ) probably close to 3 times the mass of my
                        > > > Darkwoods and can be held by two hands.
                        > > > Currently I'm not playing against this blade.
                        > > > I say blade and am not including the person using it as I have no
                        > > > issues with that aspect.
                        > > > I'm looking solely at mass and physics.
                        > > >
                        > > > Mass matching ( within say within 1.5 times of mass ) would make it
                        > > > far more simpler than say type of blade matching.
                        > > > Just a visual would suffice .. we needn't get out or mass
                        > > > spectrometers / scales / etc ...!
                        > > >
                        > > > Plus ....
                        > > >
                        > > > >Snip
                        > > > ><http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/r
                        > > apier/>http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/)
                        >
                        > > > Hmmm Not opening for me !
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        --
                        Aaron Miedema, B.F.A., B.A., M.A.
                        Historian
                        Author of *Bayonets and Blobsticks, The Canadian Experience of Close Combat
                        1915-1918*, available from Legacy Books Press.
                        http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html#Bayonet


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Thoré
                        The big concern in An Tir is home made blades (for example, blades ground down from something else that flexes well enough but isn t sword steel). We ve
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 20, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          The big concern in An Tir is home made blades (for example, blades ground down from something else that flexes well enough but isn't sword steel). We've decided to go with society's flex rule for commercial blades (we'll provide a list of manufacturers allowed, but not specific blades from those manufacturers), but blades from very small smithies and home made blades are banned whether they pass the flex test or not.

                          Cheers,
                          Thoré de Bethune

                          --- In E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Miedema <govianus@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I've been pondering this new rule for a bit. And I understand and applaud
                          > the administrative simplicity of it, I wonder if there has been more than
                          > one issue opend by the change. People may have already considered this and
                          > developed policy on this, but, I am contemplating what is inherently
                          > visible in the rule itself.
                          >
                          > This rule is guaged for Heavy Rapier by measuring flexbility, and this is
                          > needed. It is also guaged to permit the growing interest in longswords and
                          > other two handed weapons, and because of this, redefinition was required.
                          >
                          > However, this guage does not consider the precussive cut potential of these
                          > weapons. For example, an Albion Meyer Longsword is likely to pass the flex
                          > test defined by the rules, but, I know from my experience, outside the
                          > SCA, that I'd be leary of facing off against one without fairly significant
                          > additions to C and T minimum armour (namely Guants and Padding on the
                          > arms). I would suggest that these heavier weapons present the
                          > possibility of having to file a significant number of injury reports.
                          >
                          > There is also a potential issue with the weapons that can be used in Heavy
                          > Rapier. I have already had questions asked about the validity of a Hanwei
                          > Practical Norman Sword for use in both C and T and Heavy Rapier. Two
                          > handed weapons in Heavy Rapier are much easier to keep with the tip in line
                          > and are likely of less concern. But, one handed weapons that are pre-16th
                          > C reproductions are likely to have a balance point further forward than
                          > Rapiers and likely to more of a tendency to move in a more circular
                          > fashion, leading to the potential for heavy accidental percussive contact.
                          > Although this is just a hunch on my part.
                          >
                          > Now, that being said, it is up to the attacker to maintain the force of the
                          > hit. There are two ways of maintaining this, pre-emptive (armour and blade
                          > policy, as well as, training and authorization) and reactive (injury
                          > reports and disciplinary procedures). I know that my response to these
                          > heavier blades types is to armour up, and I have the experience and
                          > equipment from what I do with HEMA/WMA to know and do this. But, that
                          > cannot be assumed to be universal knowledge within the SCA. In general, I
                          > would perfer to see more use of pre-emptive techniques than reactive. I'm
                          > not interested in either hurting people or filing injury reports, nor do I
                          > want people to question Rapier on the grounds of safety.
                          >
                          > So, anyone have any thoughts on these potential concerns?
                          >
                          > Time to find a six ounce weight and start testing things just to satisfy my
                          > own curiousity. =)
                          >
                          > Archibald
                          > On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 2:19 PM, thltoymaker <thltoymaker@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > **
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > A valid point ! However with greatest respect I
                          > > think that I shall continue matching blades when and where I can.
                          > > No harm in it !
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > At 12:45 PM 2/16/2012, you wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >The stresses we subject our swords to are nowhere near what would be
                          > > >required to do more than nick edges. The only way a blade is going to
                          > > >outright fail at impact is if there are flaws in the metal's structure.
                          > > >If that's the case, the blade is going to fail at some point regardless;
                          > > >it's just a matter of when.
                          > > >
                          > > >Lars
                          > > >
                          > > >On 16/02/2012 10:10 AM, thltoymaker wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > From Gerrard: Well since I'm so good at stirring the pot !! ;-)
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Intermittently I have heard some discussion on blade matching.
                          > > > > I believe ( stressing the word believe ) that this stems from some of
                          > > > > the cross over blades.
                          > > > > Those blades that qualify for both Heavy and Cut and Thrust.
                          > > > > I myself cringe when I come up against a double wide diamond when all
                          > > > > I have is my skinny ( in comparison ) oval blade.
                          > > > > I have just recently seen in real life a very wide curved Katana
                          > > > > which has ( guessing ) probably close to 3 times the mass of my
                          > > > > Darkwoods and can be held by two hands.
                          > > > > Currently I'm not playing against this blade.
                          > > > > I say blade and am not including the person using it as I have no
                          > > > > issues with that aspect.
                          > > > > I'm looking solely at mass and physics.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Mass matching ( within say within 1.5 times of mass ) would make it
                          > > > > far more simpler than say type of blade matching.
                          > > > > Just a visual would suffice .. we needn't get out or mass
                          > > > > spectrometers / scales / etc ...!
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Plus ....
                          > > > >
                          > > > > >Snip
                          > > > > ><http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/r
                          > > > apier/>http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/)
                          > >
                          > > > > Hmmm Not opening for me !
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Aaron Miedema, B.F.A., B.A., M.A.
                          > Historian
                          > Author of *Bayonets and Blobsticks, The Canadian Experience of Close Combat
                          > 1915-1918*, available from Legacy Books Press.
                          > http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html#Bayonet
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • John Enzinas
                          What gets a manufacturer on the list? --g
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 20, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            What gets a manufacturer on the list?
                            --g

                            On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Thoré <toray1627@...> wrote:
                            > The big concern in An Tir is home made blades (for example, blades ground down from something else that flexes well enough but isn't sword steel).  We've decided to go with society's flex rule for commercial blades (we'll provide a list of manufacturers allowed, but not specific blades from those manufacturers), but blades from very small smithies and home made blades are banned whether they pass the flex test or not.
                            >
                            > Cheers,
                            > Thoré de Bethune
                            >
                            > --- In E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Miedema <govianus@...> wrote:
                            >>
                            >> I've been pondering this new rule for a bit.  And I understand and applaud
                            >> the administrative simplicity of it, I wonder if there has been more than
                            >> one issue opend by the change.  People may have already considered this and
                            >> developed policy on this, but, I am contemplating what is inherently
                            >> visible in the rule itself.
                            >>
                            >> This rule is guaged for Heavy Rapier by measuring flexbility, and this is
                            >> needed.  It is also guaged to permit the growing interest in longswords and
                            >> other two handed weapons, and because of this, redefinition was required.
                            >>
                            >> However, this guage does not consider the precussive cut potential of these
                            >> weapons.  For example, an Albion Meyer Longsword is likely to pass the flex
                            >> test defined by the rules, but, I know from my experience, outside the
                            >> SCA, that I'd be leary of facing off against one without fairly significant
                            >> additions to C and T minimum armour (namely Guants and Padding on the
                            >> arms).  I would suggest that these heavier weapons present the
                            >> possibility of having to file a significant number of injury reports.
                            >>
                            >> There is also a potential issue with the weapons that can be used in Heavy
                            >> Rapier.  I have already had questions asked about the validity of a Hanwei
                            >> Practical Norman Sword for use in both C and T and Heavy Rapier.  Two
                            >> handed weapons in Heavy Rapier are much easier to keep with the tip in line
                            >> and are likely of less concern.  But, one handed weapons that are pre-16th
                            >> C reproductions are likely to have a balance point further forward than
                            >> Rapiers and likely to more of a tendency to move in a more circular
                            >> fashion, leading to the potential for heavy accidental percussive contact.
                            >> Although this is just a hunch on my part.
                            >>
                            >> Now, that being said, it is up to the attacker to maintain the force of the
                            >> hit.  There are two ways of maintaining this, pre-emptive (armour and blade
                            >> policy, as well as, training and authorization) and reactive (injury
                            >> reports and disciplinary procedures).  I know that my response to these
                            >> heavier blades types is to armour up, and I have the experience and
                            >> equipment from what I do with HEMA/WMA to know and do this.  But, that
                            >> cannot be assumed to be universal knowledge within the SCA.  In general, I
                            >> would perfer to see more use of pre-emptive techniques than reactive.  I'm
                            >> not interested in either hurting people or filing injury reports, nor do I
                            >> want people to question Rapier on the grounds of safety.
                            >>
                            >> So, anyone have any thoughts on these potential concerns?
                            >>
                            >> Time to find a six ounce weight and start testing things just to satisfy my
                            >> own curiousity.  =)
                            >>
                            >> Archibald
                            >> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 2:19 PM, thltoymaker <thltoymaker@...> wrote:
                            >>
                            >> > **
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> > A valid point ! However with greatest respect I
                            >> > think that I shall continue matching blades when and where I can.
                            >> > No harm in it !
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> > At 12:45 PM 2/16/2012, you wrote:
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > >The stresses we subject our swords to are nowhere near what would be
                            >> > >required to do more than nick edges. The only way a blade is going to
                            >> > >outright fail at impact is if there are flaws in the metal's structure.
                            >> > >If that's the case, the blade is going to fail at some point regardless;
                            >> > >it's just a matter of when.
                            >> > >
                            >> > >Lars
                            >> > >
                            >> > >On 16/02/2012 10:10 AM, thltoymaker wrote:
                            >> > > >
                            >> > > > From Gerrard: Well since I'm so good at stirring the pot !! ;-)
                            >> > > >
                            >> > > > Intermittently I have heard some discussion on blade matching.
                            >> > > > I believe ( stressing the word believe ) that this stems from some of
                            >> > > > the cross over blades.
                            >> > > > Those blades that qualify for both Heavy and Cut and Thrust.
                            >> > > > I myself cringe when I come up against a double wide diamond when all
                            >> > > > I have is my skinny ( in comparison ) oval blade.
                            >> > > > I have just recently seen in real life a very wide curved Katana
                            >> > > > which has ( guessing ) probably close to 3 times the mass of my
                            >> > > > Darkwoods and can be held by two hands.
                            >> > > > Currently I'm not playing against this blade.
                            >> > > > I say blade and am not including the person using it as I have no
                            >> > > > issues with that aspect.
                            >> > > > I'm looking solely at mass and physics.
                            >> > > >
                            >> > > > Mass matching ( within say within 1.5 times of mass ) would make it
                            >> > > > far more simpler than say type of blade matching.
                            >> > > > Just a visual would suffice .. we needn't get out or mass
                            >> > > > spectrometers / scales / etc ...!
                            >> > > >
                            >> > > > Plus ....
                            >> > > >
                            >> > > > >Snip
                            >> > > > ><http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/r
                            >> > > apier/>http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/)
                            >> >
                            >> > > > Hmmm Not opening for me !
                            >> > > >
                            >> > > >
                            >> > >
                            >> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >> > >
                            >> > >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> --
                            >> Aaron Miedema, B.F.A., B.A., M.A.
                            >> Historian
                            >> Author of *Bayonets and Blobsticks, The Canadian Experience of Close Combat
                            >> 1915-1918*, available from Legacy Books Press.
                            >> http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html#Bayonet
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Aaron Miedema
                            Hi Thore... It s not the flex of which I m speaking, I m not concerned about that. What I m talking about are hits delivered with the edge, which can happen by
                            Message 13 of 16 , Feb 20, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Thore...

                              It's not the flex of which I'm speaking, I'm not concerned about that.
                              What I'm talking about are hits delivered with the edge, which can happen
                              by accident in Heavy Rapier and is kind of the point in cut and thrust
                              (pardon the pun =) ). And these weapons are from manufacturers that are
                              likely approved, so for example, a Hanwei Practical Viking. or a Practical
                              Norman, or a practical Bastard, or an Albion, or a tinker-pierce. These
                              weapons may pass the flex test--although I have not yet tested any of them,
                              but I will so soon, just to give me a sence of what is proper flex.

                              I just am leary about what can potentially happen if any of these weapons
                              deliver a precussive cut to a hand or a forearm against Cut and Thrust
                              mimimum Armour.

                              Archibald.

                              On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Thor�� <toray1627@...> wrote:

                              > **
                              >
                              >
                              > The big concern in An Tir is home made blades (for example, blades ground
                              > down from something else that flexes well enough but isn't sword steel).
                              > We've decided to go with society's flex rule for commercial blades (we'll
                              > provide a list of manufacturers allowed, but not specific blades from those
                              > manufacturers), but blades from very small smithies and home made blades
                              > are banned whether they pass the flex test or not.
                              >
                              > Cheers,
                              > Thor� de Bethune
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Miedema <govianus@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I've been pondering this new rule for a bit. And I understand and applaud
                              > > the administrative simplicity of it, I wonder if there has been more than
                              > > one issue opend by the change. People may have already considered this
                              > and
                              > > developed policy on this, but, I am contemplating what is inherently
                              > > visible in the rule itself.
                              > >
                              > > This rule is guaged for Heavy Rapier by measuring flexbility, and this is
                              > > needed. It is also guaged to permit the growing interest in longswords
                              > and
                              > > other two handed weapons, and because of this, redefinition was required.
                              > >
                              > > However, this guage does not consider the precussive cut potential of
                              > these
                              > > weapons. For example, an Albion Meyer Longsword is likely to pass the
                              > flex
                              > > test defined by the rules, but, I know from my experience, outside the
                              > > SCA, that I'd be leary of facing off against one without fairly
                              > significant
                              > > additions to C and T minimum armour (namely Guants and Padding on the
                              > > arms). I would suggest that these heavier weapons present the
                              > > possibility of having to file a significant number of injury reports.
                              > >
                              > > There is also a potential issue with the weapons that can be used in
                              > Heavy
                              > > Rapier. I have already had questions asked about the validity of a Hanwei
                              > > Practical Norman Sword for use in both C and T and Heavy Rapier. Two
                              > > handed weapons in Heavy Rapier are much easier to keep with the tip in
                              > line
                              > > and are likely of less concern. But, one handed weapons that are pre-16th
                              > > C reproductions are likely to have a balance point further forward than
                              > > Rapiers and likely to more of a tendency to move in a more circular
                              > > fashion, leading to the potential for heavy accidental percussive
                              > contact.
                              > > Although this is just a hunch on my part.
                              > >
                              > > Now, that being said, it is up to the attacker to maintain the force of
                              > the
                              > > hit. There are two ways of maintaining this, pre-emptive (armour and
                              > blade
                              > > policy, as well as, training and authorization) and reactive (injury
                              > > reports and disciplinary procedures). I know that my response to these
                              > > heavier blades types is to armour up, and I have the experience and
                              > > equipment from what I do with HEMA/WMA to know and do this. But, that
                              > > cannot be assumed to be universal knowledge within the SCA. In general, I
                              > > would perfer to see more use of pre-emptive techniques than reactive. I'm
                              > > not interested in either hurting people or filing injury reports, nor do
                              > I
                              > > want people to question Rapier on the grounds of safety.
                              > >
                              > > So, anyone have any thoughts on these potential concerns?
                              > >
                              > > Time to find a six ounce weight and start testing things just to satisfy
                              > my
                              > > own curiousity. =)
                              > >
                              > > Archibald
                              > > On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 2:19 PM, thltoymaker <thltoymaker@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > **
                              >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > A valid point ! However with greatest respect I
                              > > > think that I shall continue matching blades when and where I can.
                              > > > No harm in it !
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > At 12:45 PM 2/16/2012, you wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >The stresses we subject our swords to are nowhere near what would be
                              > > > >required to do more than nick edges. The only way a blade is going to
                              > > > >outright fail at impact is if there are flaws in the metal's
                              > structure.
                              > > > >If that's the case, the blade is going to fail at some point
                              > regardless;
                              > > > >it's just a matter of when.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >Lars
                              > > > >
                              > > > >On 16/02/2012 10:10 AM, thltoymaker wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > From Gerrard: Well since I'm so good at stirring the pot !! ;-)
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Intermittently I have heard some discussion on blade matching.
                              > > > > > I believe ( stressing the word believe ) that this stems from some
                              > of
                              > > > > > the cross over blades.
                              > > > > > Those blades that qualify for both Heavy and Cut and Thrust.
                              > > > > > I myself cringe when I come up against a double wide diamond when
                              > all
                              > > > > > I have is my skinny ( in comparison ) oval blade.
                              > > > > > I have just recently seen in real life a very wide curved Katana
                              > > > > > which has ( guessing ) probably close to 3 times the mass of my
                              > > > > > Darkwoods and can be held by two hands.
                              > > > > > Currently I'm not playing against this blade.
                              > > > > > I say blade and am not including the person using it as I have no
                              > > > > > issues with that aspect.
                              > > > > > I'm looking solely at mass and physics.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Mass matching ( within say within 1.5 times of mass ) would make it
                              > > > > > far more simpler than say type of blade matching.
                              > > > > > Just a visual would suffice .. we needn't get out or mass
                              > > > > > spectrometers / scales / etc ...!
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Plus ....
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > >Snip
                              > > > > > ><http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/r
                              > > > > apier/>http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/)
                              > > >
                              > > > > > Hmmm Not opening for me !
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --
                              > > Aaron Miedema, B.F.A., B.A., M.A.
                              > > Historian
                              > > Author of *Bayonets and Blobsticks, The Canadian Experience of Close
                              > Combat
                              > > 1915-1918*, available from Legacy Books Press.
                              > > http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html#Bayonet
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >



                              --
                              Aaron Miedema, B.F.A., B.A., M.A.
                              Historian
                              Author of *Bayonets and Blobsticks, The Canadian Experience of Close Combat
                              1915-1918*, available from Legacy Books Press.
                              http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html#Bayonet


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • EVE HARRIS
                              Greetings!   Hopefully, if the person is authorized is C&T, the blow will be sufficiently controlled as to not do any real damage, even with the heavier
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 20, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Greetings!
                                 
                                Hopefully, if the person is authorized is C&T, the blow will be sufficiently controlled as to not do any real damage, even with the heavier blade. I know that's no guarantee that excessive blows won't be thrown, but I think it's a lot easier to get into the excessive area with a heavier blade, so greater control has to be exercised. That's one of the reasons that C&T is an advanced authorization and a person has to demonstrate a high level of control during the authorization process. Just one excessive blow during the authorization process and it's authorization over. So, the issue is not with the heavier blade, but the fencer's ability to control that blade. We should not be throwing edge cuts anywhere near full force.
                                 
                                Lets take a quick look at the rules:
                                 
                                4.0
                                ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF BLOWS
                                A. In judging blows,
                                all fighters are presumed to be wearing common civil attire of the period, not
                                armour.
                                B. Tourneys may be
                                held which define areas of the body as if armoured, and to what degree, so long
                                as all
                                the participants are
                                made aware of these special conditions prior to the start of combat.
                                C. In rapier combat,
                                blows will be counted as though they were struck with a real blade, extremely
                                sharp on
                                point and edge. Any
                                blow that would have penetrated the skin shall be counted a good blow. Any blow
                                that strikes a mask,
                                helm or gorget shall be counted as though it struck flesh.
                                 
                                 
                                3.0 USE OF WEAPONS
                                AND PARRYING DEVICES
                                A. Valid Blows are struck by:
                                thrusting with the point of the blade (thrust); sliding the edge of the blade
                                by
                                drawing (draw cut); sliding the
                                edge of the blade by pushing (push cut); or placing the tip of the blade
                                upon and then drawing it across
                                an opponent (tip cut). Cut and thrust rapier also includes the use of
                                percussive cuts as a valid blow.
                                Percussive cuts must always be delivered with sufficient control so as
                                not to injure the opponent while
                                still delivering the necessary impact for a valid cut.
                                 
                                5. EXCESSIVE IMPACT: Combat in
                                the Society poses risks to the participant. This recognition, however,
                                does not excuse fighters from
                                exercising control of their techniques. If a fighter throws blows which
                                force their opponent to retire
                                from the field, from a real injury (even one which only causes brief
                                incapacitation), the marshal
                                responsible for the field shall take such steps as are appropriate to stop the
                                problem from recurring. This
                                applies to all forms of rapier combat.
                                 
                                So, it does not take a lot of force to do a good blow in our game, even with an edge cut. Percussive cuts have an extra proviso emphasizing control. If you hit someone hard enough that they have to leave the list, you're in trouble. So, again, the emphasis is on the fencers to show proper control.
                                 
                                Also, if you are concerned about a paticular blade, you can up armour whatever bits of you you want and you can suggest the same to your opponent, as long as you can still call blows through it. Stuff happens, though at the level of control people authorized in C&T should have, it should happen a heck of a lot less often.
                                 
                                So, to conclude, it's not the blade it's the fencer. If you don't think you can safely strike someone with a particular blade, then don't use it, even if it passes the flex test. If you are not confident someone can strike you safely with a particular blade, then ask them to use something else, or don't fight them.
                                 
                                Yours in Service
                                 
                                Albrecht
                                  
                                 
                                  


                                ________________________________
                                From: Aaron Miedema <govianus@...>
                                To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 5:55:21 PM
                                Subject: Re: [E_Rapier] Re: New Blade Rules

                                Hi Thore...

                                It's not the flex of which I'm speaking, I'm not concerned about that.
                                What I'm talking about are hits delivered with the edge, which can happen
                                by accident in Heavy Rapier and is kind of the point in cut and thrust
                                (pardon the pun =) ).  And these weapons are from manufacturers that are
                                likely approved, so for example, a Hanwei Practical Viking. or a Practical
                                Norman, or a practical Bastard, or an Albion, or a tinker-pierce.  These
                                weapons may pass the flex test--although I have not yet tested any of them,
                                but I will so soon, just to give me a sence of what is proper flex.

                                I just am leary about what can potentially happen if any of these weapons
                                deliver a precussive cut to a hand or a forearm against Cut and Thrust
                                mimimum Armour.

                                Archibald.

                                On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Thoré <toray1627@...> wrote:

                                > **
                                >
                                >
                                > The big concern in An Tir is home made blades (for example, blades ground
                                > down from something else that flexes well enough but isn't sword steel).
                                > We've decided to go with society's flex rule for commercial blades (we'll
                                > provide a list of manufacturers allowed, but not specific blades from those
                                > manufacturers), but blades from very small smithies and home made blades
                                > are banned whether they pass the flex test or not.
                                >
                                > Cheers,
                                > Thoré de Bethune
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Miedema <govianus@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I've been pondering this new rule for a bit. And I understand and applaud
                                > > the administrative simplicity of it, I wonder if there has been more than
                                > > one issue opend by the change. People may have already considered this
                                > and
                                > > developed policy on this, but, I am contemplating what is inherently
                                > > visible in the rule itself.
                                > >
                                > > This rule is guaged for Heavy Rapier by measuring flexbility, and this is
                                > > needed. It is also guaged to permit the growing interest in longswords
                                > and
                                > > other two handed weapons, and because of this, redefinition was required.
                                > >
                                > > However, this guage does not consider the precussive cut potential of
                                > these
                                > > weapons. For example, an Albion Meyer Longsword is likely to pass the
                                > flex
                                > > test defined by the rules, but, I know from my experience, outside the
                                > > SCA, that I'd be leary of facing off against one without fairly
                                > significant
                                > > additions to C and T minimum armour (namely Guants and Padding on the
                                > > arms). I would suggest that these heavier weapons present the
                                > > possibility of having to file a significant number of injury reports.
                                > >
                                > > There is also a potential issue with the weapons that can be used in
                                > Heavy
                                > > Rapier. I have already had questions asked about the validity of a Hanwei
                                > > Practical Norman Sword for use in both C and T and Heavy Rapier. Two
                                > > handed weapons in Heavy Rapier are much easier to keep with the tip in
                                > line
                                > > and are likely of less concern. But, one handed weapons that are pre-16th
                                > > C reproductions are likely to have a balance point further forward than
                                > > Rapiers and likely to more of a tendency to move in a more circular
                                > > fashion, leading to the potential for heavy accidental percussive
                                > contact.
                                > > Although this is just a hunch on my part.
                                > >
                                > > Now, that being said, it is up to the attacker to maintain the force of
                                > the
                                > > hit. There are two ways of maintaining this, pre-emptive (armour and
                                > blade
                                > > policy, as well as, training and authorization) and reactive (injury
                                > > reports and disciplinary procedures). I know that my response to these
                                > > heavier blades types is to armour up, and I have the experience and
                                > > equipment from what I do with HEMA/WMA to know and do this. But, that
                                > > cannot be assumed to be universal knowledge within the SCA. In general, I
                                > > would perfer to see more use of pre-emptive techniques than reactive. I'm
                                > > not interested in either hurting people or filing injury reports, nor do
                                > I
                                > > want people to question Rapier on the grounds of safety.
                                > >
                                > > So, anyone have any thoughts on these potential concerns?
                                > >
                                > > Time to find a six ounce weight and start testing things just to satisfy
                                > my
                                > > own curiousity. =)
                                > >
                                > > Archibald
                                > > On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 2:19 PM, thltoymaker <thltoymaker@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > **
                                >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > A valid point ! However with greatest respect I
                                > > > think that I shall continue matching blades when and where I can.
                                > > > No harm in it !
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > At 12:45 PM 2/16/2012, you wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >The stresses we subject our swords to are nowhere near what would be
                                > > > >required to do more than nick edges. The only way a blade is going to
                                > > > >outright fail at impact is if there are flaws in the metal's
                                > structure.
                                > > > >If that's the case, the blade is going to fail at some point
                                > regardless;
                                > > > >it's just a matter of when.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >Lars
                                > > > >
                                > > > >On 16/02/2012 10:10 AM, thltoymaker wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > From Gerrard: Well since I'm so good at stirring the pot !! ;-)
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Intermittently I have heard some discussion on blade matching.
                                > > > > > I believe ( stressing the word believe ) that this stems from some
                                > of
                                > > > > > the cross over blades.
                                > > > > > Those blades that qualify for both Heavy and Cut and Thrust.
                                > > > > > I myself cringe when I come up against a double wide diamond when
                                > all
                                > > > > > I have is my skinny ( in comparison ) oval blade.
                                > > > > > I have just recently seen in real life a very wide curved Katana
                                > > > > > which has ( guessing ) probably close to 3 times the mass of my
                                > > > > > Darkwoods and can be held by two hands.
                                > > > > > Currently I'm not playing against this blade.
                                > > > > > I say blade and am not including the person using it as I have no
                                > > > > > issues with that aspect.
                                > > > > > I'm looking solely at mass and physics.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Mass matching ( within say within 1.5 times of mass ) would make it
                                > > > > > far more simpler than say type of blade matching.
                                > > > > > Just a visual would suffice .. we needn't get out or mass
                                > > > > > spectrometers / scales / etc ...!
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Plus ....
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > >Snip
                                > > > > > ><http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/r
                                > > > > apier/>http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/)
                                > > >
                                > > > > > Hmmm Not opening for me !
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --
                                > > Aaron Miedema, B.F.A., B.A., M.A.
                                > > Historian
                                > > Author of *Bayonets and Blobsticks, The Canadian Experience of Close
                                > Combat
                                > > 1915-1918*, available from Legacy Books Press.
                                > > http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html#Bayonet
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >

                                >



                                --
                                Aaron Miedema, B.F.A., B.A., M.A.
                                Historian
                                Author of *Bayonets and Blobsticks, The Canadian Experience of Close Combat
                                1915-1918*, available from Legacy Books Press.
                                http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html#Bayonet


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                ------------------------------------

                                Yahoo! Groups Links



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • L. Tremblay
                                The difference between someone using a typical diamond blade that hits too hard and someone using a practical viking that doesn t pull the blow enough will
                                Message 15 of 16 , Feb 20, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  The difference between someone using a typical diamond blade that "hits
                                  too hard" and someone using a practical viking that "doesn't pull the
                                  blow enough" will be indistinguishable. This is not an equipment
                                  problem. As Albrecht says, this is why we have C&T as an advanced
                                  authorisation.

                                  Homemade blades are an interesting thing. If I just go get a billet of
                                  spring steel, grind it out as a blade and use it just like that (or
                                  temper it insufficiently), it will get chewed up very quickly by
                                  properly tempered blades (not to mention that the first time it bends,
                                  it will stay that way). If I instead temper it to the point of
                                  brittleness, then it will fail pretty spectacularly, almost certainly
                                  sooner than later. If I temper it correctly, nobody will ever tell the
                                  difference between it and a commercially produced blade. I'm not
                                  concerned with someone who doesn't temper it at all; they will take it
                                  home after the first night and never use it again. Anyone with access
                                  to equipment suitable for tempering steel should know what to do, or be
                                  under the supervision of the owner of said equipment who should know
                                  what to do.

                                  In any case, I would hope that Lady Craftsalot would mention the minor
                                  detail of its homemade construction to the inspecting marshal, who would
                                  either give it an extra thorough checking beyond the flex test (i.e.
                                  "you can only fence against me with that until I'm happy") or, if the
                                  marshal does not feel that they have the experience/knowledge to make
                                  the call, refer L.C. to a marshal who can make it.

                                  Lars

                                  On 20/02/2012 5:55 PM, Aaron Miedema wrote:
                                  > Hi Thore...
                                  >
                                  > It's not the flex of which I'm speaking, I'm not concerned about that.
                                  > What I'm talking about are hits delivered with the edge, which can happen
                                  > by accident in Heavy Rapier and is kind of the point in cut and thrust
                                  > (pardon the pun =) ). And these weapons are from manufacturers that are
                                  > likely approved, so for example, a Hanwei Practical Viking. or a Practical
                                  > Norman, or a practical Bastard, or an Albion, or a tinker-pierce. These
                                  > weapons may pass the flex test--although I have not yet tested any of them,
                                  > but I will so soon, just to give me a sence of what is proper flex.
                                  >
                                  > I just am leary about what can potentially happen if any of these weapons
                                  > deliver a precussive cut to a hand or a forearm against Cut and Thrust
                                  > mimimum Armour.
                                  >
                                  > Archibald.
                                  >
                                  > On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Thoré<toray1627@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> **
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> The big concern in An Tir is home made blades (for example, blades ground
                                  >> down from something else that flexes well enough but isn't sword steel).
                                  >> We've decided to go with society's flex rule for commercial blades (we'll
                                  >> provide a list of manufacturers allowed, but not specific blades from those
                                  >> manufacturers), but blades from very small smithies and home made blades
                                  >> are banned whether they pass the flex test or not.
                                  >>
                                  >> Cheers,
                                  >> Thoré de Bethune
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> --- In E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Miedema<govianus@...> wrote:
                                  >>> I've been pondering this new rule for a bit. And I understand and applaud
                                  >>> the administrative simplicity of it, I wonder if there has been more than
                                  >>> one issue opend by the change. People may have already considered this
                                  >> and
                                  >>> developed policy on this, but, I am contemplating what is inherently
                                  >>> visible in the rule itself.
                                  >>>
                                  >>> This rule is guaged for Heavy Rapier by measuring flexbility, and this is
                                  >>> needed. It is also guaged to permit the growing interest in longswords
                                  >> and
                                  >>> other two handed weapons, and because of this, redefinition was required.
                                  >>>
                                  >>> However, this guage does not consider the precussive cut potential of
                                  >> these
                                  >>> weapons. For example, an Albion Meyer Longsword is likely to pass the
                                  >> flex
                                  >>> test defined by the rules, but, I know from my experience, outside the
                                  >>> SCA, that I'd be leary of facing off against one without fairly
                                  >> significant
                                  >>> additions to C and T minimum armour (namely Guants and Padding on the
                                  >>> arms). I would suggest that these heavier weapons present the
                                  >>> possibility of having to file a significant number of injury reports.
                                  >>>
                                  >>> There is also a potential issue with the weapons that can be used in
                                  >> Heavy
                                  >>> Rapier. I have already had questions asked about the validity of a Hanwei
                                  >>> Practical Norman Sword for use in both C and T and Heavy Rapier. Two
                                  >>> handed weapons in Heavy Rapier are much easier to keep with the tip in
                                  >> line
                                  >>> and are likely of less concern. But, one handed weapons that are pre-16th
                                  >>> C reproductions are likely to have a balance point further forward than
                                  >>> Rapiers and likely to more of a tendency to move in a more circular
                                  >>> fashion, leading to the potential for heavy accidental percussive
                                  >> contact.
                                  >>> Although this is just a hunch on my part.
                                  >>>
                                  >>> Now, that being said, it is up to the attacker to maintain the force of
                                  >> the
                                  >>> hit. There are two ways of maintaining this, pre-emptive (armour and
                                  >> blade
                                  >>> policy, as well as, training and authorization) and reactive (injury
                                  >>> reports and disciplinary procedures). I know that my response to these
                                  >>> heavier blades types is to armour up, and I have the experience and
                                  >>> equipment from what I do with HEMA/WMA to know and do this. But, that
                                  >>> cannot be assumed to be universal knowledge within the SCA. In general, I
                                  >>> would perfer to see more use of pre-emptive techniques than reactive. I'm
                                  >>> not interested in either hurting people or filing injury reports, nor do
                                  >> I
                                  >>> want people to question Rapier on the grounds of safety.
                                  >>>
                                  >>> So, anyone have any thoughts on these potential concerns?
                                  >>>
                                  >>> Time to find a six ounce weight and start testing things just to satisfy
                                  >> my
                                  >>> own curiousity. =)
                                  >>>
                                  >>> Archibald
                                  >>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 2:19 PM, thltoymaker<thltoymaker@...> wrote:
                                  >>>
                                  >>>> **
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> A valid point ! However with greatest respect I
                                  >>>> think that I shall continue matching blades when and where I can.
                                  >>>> No harm in it !
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> At 12:45 PM 2/16/2012, you wrote:
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>> The stresses we subject our swords to are nowhere near what would be
                                  >>>>> required to do more than nick edges. The only way a blade is going to
                                  >>>>> outright fail at impact is if there are flaws in the metal's
                                  >> structure.
                                  >>>>> If that's the case, the blade is going to fail at some point
                                  >> regardless;
                                  >>>>> it's just a matter of when.
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>> Lars
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>> On 16/02/2012 10:10 AM, thltoymaker wrote:
                                  >>>>>> From Gerrard: Well since I'm so good at stirring the pot !! ;-)
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> Intermittently I have heard some discussion on blade matching.
                                  >>>>>> I believe ( stressing the word believe ) that this stems from some
                                  >> of
                                  >>>>>> the cross over blades.
                                  >>>>>> Those blades that qualify for both Heavy and Cut and Thrust.
                                  >>>>>> I myself cringe when I come up against a double wide diamond when
                                  >> all
                                  >>>>>> I have is my skinny ( in comparison ) oval blade.
                                  >>>>>> I have just recently seen in real life a very wide curved Katana
                                  >>>>>> which has ( guessing ) probably close to 3 times the mass of my
                                  >>>>>> Darkwoods and can be held by two hands.
                                  >>>>>> Currently I'm not playing against this blade.
                                  >>>>>> I say blade and am not including the person using it as I have no
                                  >>>>>> issues with that aspect.
                                  >>>>>> I'm looking solely at mass and physics.
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> Mass matching ( within say within 1.5 times of mass ) would make it
                                  >>>>>> far more simpler than say type of blade matching.
                                  >>>>>> Just a visual would suffice .. we needn't get out or mass
                                  >>>>>> spectrometers / scales / etc ...!
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>> Plus ....
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>> Snip
                                  >>>>>>> <http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/r
                                  >>>>> apier/>http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/)
                                  >>>>>> Hmmm Not opening for me !
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>> --
                                  >>> Aaron Miedema, B.F.A., B.A., M.A.
                                  >>> Historian
                                  >>> Author of *Bayonets and Blobsticks, The Canadian Experience of Close
                                  >> Combat
                                  >>> 1915-1918*, available from Legacy Books Press.
                                  >>> http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html#Bayonet
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >>>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Aaron Miedema
                                  I agree with you Albrecht and that authorization is one of the pre-emptive forms of callibration enforcement, but it is not perfect. Authorization are not
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Feb 21, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I agree with you Albrecht and that authorization is one of the pre-emptive
                                    forms of callibration enforcement, but it is not perfect. Authorization
                                    are not tied to particular weapon, and so one may authorize with a weapon
                                    that is less of an issue and then move up to something meatier. And I'm
                                    not saying that everyone is going to do this, but I suspect that one or two
                                    cases of serious arm or hand injury might make things difficult for the
                                    group of us as a whole. Would it were not so, it is because of insurance
                                    policies that we have to think about the accidents and not the usual
                                    circumstances.

                                    Now, of course if the all of you think that cut and thrust armour can
                                    protect the arm and hand to a reasonable degree against one of these
                                    Medieval type swords. fine. I'll conceed. I'll still armour up, but
                                    that'll just be my thing. =)

                                    I'm hardly in a panic over this, the Cut and Thrust project is small and
                                    fairly easily policed right now, but, it won't necessarily stay that way.
                                    But, even now peope have started asking me questions about the potentiality
                                    of using such weapons.

                                    On a similar vein, I did some testing last night. My scale was an old
                                    mechanical one so the weights cannot be guaranteed as perfect, but they do
                                    give a ball park. Clamping the sword/blade to a table surface so it can
                                    only move from the shoulder of the tang downward toward the tip. The,
                                    using a 1" wide yard stick I can measure the distance the weight is from
                                    the tip and the depression of the blade by the weight. The results of last
                                    nights testing.
                                    Hanwei Practical Viking moved 7/8". So worthy of refining the
                                    weight to get a more accurate reading.
                                    35" Zamarrano Blade moved 1 3/4". Quite surprising that one, I
                                    would have thought it would be less. But it passes by a wide margin even
                                    with the imperfect weight I think.

                                    I suspect there is a new kitchen scale in my future so I can start merrily
                                    bending swords to satisfy my curiousity. I'm also interested in just
                                    examining the subject of variance, for example Hanwei has been known to
                                    manufacture products that are highly unpredictable in character of steel.
                                    Any thoughts on how this might be addressed?

                                    Archibald.

                                    On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 8:53 PM, EVE HARRIS <evedave1@...> wrote:

                                    > **
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Greetings!
                                    >
                                    > Hopefully, if the person is authorized is C&T, the blow will be
                                    > sufficiently controlled as to not do any real damage, even with the heavier
                                    > blade. I know that's no guarantee that excessive blows won't be thrown, but
                                    > I think it's a lot easier to get into the excessive area with a heavier
                                    > blade, so greater control has to be exercised. That's one of the reasons
                                    > that C&T is an advanced authorization and a person has to demonstrate a
                                    > high level of control during the authorization process. Just one excessive
                                    > blow during the authorization process and it's authorization over. So, the
                                    > issue is not with the heavier blade, but the fencer's ability to control
                                    > that blade. We should not be throwing edge cuts anywhere near full force.
                                    >
                                    > Lets take a quick look at the rules:
                                    >
                                    > 4.0
                                    > ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF BLOWS
                                    > A. In judging blows,
                                    > all fighters are presumed to be wearing common civil attire of the period,
                                    > not
                                    > armour.
                                    > B. Tourneys may be
                                    > held which define areas of the body as if armoured, and to what degree, so
                                    > long
                                    > as all
                                    > the participants are
                                    > made aware of these special conditions prior to the start of combat.
                                    > C. In rapier combat,
                                    > blows will be counted as though they were struck with a real blade,
                                    > extremely
                                    > sharp on
                                    > point and edge. Any
                                    > blow that would have penetrated the skin shall be counted a good blow. Any
                                    > blow
                                    > that strikes a mask,
                                    > helm or gorget shall be counted as though it struck flesh.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > 3.0 USE OF WEAPONS
                                    > AND PARRYING DEVICES
                                    > A. Valid Blows are struck by:
                                    > thrusting with the point of the blade (thrust); sliding the edge of the
                                    > blade
                                    > by
                                    > drawing (draw cut); sliding the
                                    > edge of the blade by pushing (push cut); or placing the tip of the blade
                                    > upon and then drawing it across
                                    > an opponent (tip cut). Cut and thrust rapier also includes the use of
                                    > percussive cuts as a valid blow.
                                    > Percussive cuts must always be delivered with sufficient control so as
                                    > not to injure the opponent while
                                    > still delivering the necessary impact for a valid cut.
                                    >
                                    > 5. EXCESSIVE IMPACT: Combat in
                                    > the Society poses risks to the participant. This recognition, however,
                                    > does not excuse fighters from
                                    > exercising control of their techniques. If a fighter throws blows which
                                    > force their opponent to retire
                                    > from the field, from a real injury (even one which only causes brief
                                    > incapacitation), the marshal
                                    > responsible for the field shall take such steps as are appropriate to stop
                                    > the
                                    > problem from recurring. This
                                    > applies to all forms of rapier combat.
                                    >
                                    > So, it does not take a lot of force to do a good blow in our game, even
                                    > with an edge cut. Percussive cuts have an extra proviso emphasizing
                                    > control. If you hit someone hard enough that they have to leave the list,
                                    > you're in trouble. So, again, the emphasis is on the fencers to show proper
                                    > control.
                                    >
                                    > Also, if you are concerned about a paticular blade, you can up armour
                                    > whatever bits of you you want and you can suggest the same to your
                                    > opponent, as long as you can still call blows through it. Stuff happens,
                                    > though at the level of control people authorized in C&T should have, it
                                    > should happen a heck of a lot less often.
                                    >
                                    > So, to conclude, it's not the blade it's the fencer. If you don't think
                                    > you can safely strike someone with a particular blade, then don't use it,
                                    > even if it passes the flex test. If you are not confident someone can
                                    > strike you safely with a particular blade, then ask them to use something
                                    > else, or don't fight them.
                                    >
                                    > Yours in Service
                                    >
                                    > Albrecht
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > From: Aaron Miedema <govianus@...>
                                    > To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 5:55:21 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [E_Rapier] Re: New Blade Rules
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi Thore...
                                    >
                                    > It's not the flex of which I'm speaking, I'm not concerned about that.
                                    > What I'm talking about are hits delivered with the edge, which can happen
                                    > by accident in Heavy Rapier and is kind of the point in cut and thrust
                                    > (pardon the pun =) ). And these weapons are from manufacturers that are
                                    > likely approved, so for example, a Hanwei Practical Viking. or a Practical
                                    > Norman, or a practical Bastard, or an Albion, or a tinker-pierce. These
                                    > weapons may pass the flex test--although I have not yet tested any of them,
                                    > but I will so soon, just to give me a sence of what is proper flex.
                                    >
                                    > I just am leary about what can potentially happen if any of these weapons
                                    > deliver a precussive cut to a hand or a forearm against Cut and Thrust
                                    > mimimum Armour.
                                    >
                                    > Archibald.
                                    >
                                    > On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Thor�� <toray1627@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > **
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > The big concern in An Tir is home made blades (for example, blades ground
                                    > > down from something else that flexes well enough but isn't sword steel).
                                    > > We've decided to go with society's flex rule for commercial blades (we'll
                                    > > provide a list of manufacturers allowed, but not specific blades from
                                    > those
                                    > > manufacturers), but blades from very small smithies and home made blades
                                    > > are banned whether they pass the flex test or not.
                                    > >
                                    > > Cheers,
                                    > > Thor� de Bethune
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Miedema <govianus@...> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I've been pondering this new rule for a bit. And I understand and
                                    > applaud
                                    > > > the administrative simplicity of it, I wonder if there has been more
                                    > than
                                    > > > one issue opend by the change. People may have already considered this
                                    > > and
                                    > > > developed policy on this, but, I am contemplating what is inherently
                                    > > > visible in the rule itself.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > This rule is guaged for Heavy Rapier by measuring flexbility, and this
                                    > is
                                    > > > needed. It is also guaged to permit the growing interest in longswords
                                    > > and
                                    > > > other two handed weapons, and because of this, redefinition was
                                    > required.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > However, this guage does not consider the precussive cut potential of
                                    > > these
                                    > > > weapons. For example, an Albion Meyer Longsword is likely to pass the
                                    > > flex
                                    > > > test defined by the rules, but, I know from my experience, outside the
                                    > > > SCA, that I'd be leary of facing off against one without fairly
                                    > > significant
                                    > > > additions to C and T minimum armour (namely Guants and Padding on the
                                    > > > arms). I would suggest that these heavier weapons present the
                                    > > > possibility of having to file a significant number of injury reports.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > There is also a potential issue with the weapons that can be used in
                                    > > Heavy
                                    > > > Rapier. I have already had questions asked about the validity of a
                                    > Hanwei
                                    > > > Practical Norman Sword for use in both C and T and Heavy Rapier. Two
                                    > > > handed weapons in Heavy Rapier are much easier to keep with the tip in
                                    > > line
                                    > > > and are likely of less concern. But, one handed weapons that are
                                    > pre-16th
                                    > > > C reproductions are likely to have a balance point further forward than
                                    > > > Rapiers and likely to more of a tendency to move in a more circular
                                    > > > fashion, leading to the potential for heavy accidental percussive
                                    > > contact.
                                    > > > Although this is just a hunch on my part.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Now, that being said, it is up to the attacker to maintain the force of
                                    > > the
                                    > > > hit. There are two ways of maintaining this, pre-emptive (armour and
                                    > > blade
                                    > > > policy, as well as, training and authorization) and reactive (injury
                                    > > > reports and disciplinary procedures). I know that my response to these
                                    > > > heavier blades types is to armour up, and I have the experience and
                                    > > > equipment from what I do with HEMA/WMA to know and do this. But, that
                                    > > > cannot be assumed to be universal knowledge within the SCA. In
                                    > general, I
                                    > > > would perfer to see more use of pre-emptive techniques than reactive.
                                    > I'm
                                    > > > not interested in either hurting people or filing injury reports, nor
                                    > do
                                    > > I
                                    > > > want people to question Rapier on the grounds of safety.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > So, anyone have any thoughts on these potential concerns?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Time to find a six ounce weight and start testing things just to
                                    > satisfy
                                    > > my
                                    > > > own curiousity. =)
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Archibald
                                    > > > On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 2:19 PM, thltoymaker <thltoymaker@...> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > **
                                    > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > A valid point ! However with greatest respect I
                                    > > > > think that I shall continue matching blades when and where I can.
                                    > > > > No harm in it !
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > At 12:45 PM 2/16/2012, you wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >The stresses we subject our swords to are nowhere near what would be
                                    > > > > >required to do more than nick edges. The only way a blade is going
                                    > to
                                    > > > > >outright fail at impact is if there are flaws in the metal's
                                    > > structure.
                                    > > > > >If that's the case, the blade is going to fail at some point
                                    > > regardless;
                                    > > > > >it's just a matter of when.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >Lars
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >On 16/02/2012 10:10 AM, thltoymaker wrote:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > From Gerrard: Well since I'm so good at stirring the pot !! ;-)
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Intermittently I have heard some discussion on blade matching.
                                    > > > > > > I believe ( stressing the word believe ) that this stems from
                                    > some
                                    > > of
                                    > > > > > > the cross over blades.
                                    > > > > > > Those blades that qualify for both Heavy and Cut and Thrust.
                                    > > > > > > I myself cringe when I come up against a double wide diamond when
                                    > > all
                                    > > > > > > I have is my skinny ( in comparison ) oval blade.
                                    > > > > > > I have just recently seen in real life a very wide curved Katana
                                    > > > > > > which has ( guessing ) probably close to 3 times the mass of my
                                    > > > > > > Darkwoods and can be held by two hands.
                                    > > > > > > Currently I'm not playing against this blade.
                                    > > > > > > I say blade and am not including the person using it as I have no
                                    > > > > > > issues with that aspect.
                                    > > > > > > I'm looking solely at mass and physics.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Mass matching ( within say within 1.5 times of mass ) would make
                                    > it
                                    > > > > > > far more simpler than say type of blade matching.
                                    > > > > > > Just a visual would suffice .. we needn't get out or mass
                                    > > > > > > spectrometers / scales / etc ...!
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Plus ....
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >Snip
                                    > > > > > > ><http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/r
                                    > > > > > apier/>http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/)
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Hmmm Not opening for me !
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --
                                    > > > Aaron Miedema, B.F.A., B.A., M.A.
                                    > > > Historian
                                    > > > Author of *Bayonets and Blobsticks, The Canadian Experience of Close
                                    > > Combat
                                    > > > 1915-1918*, available from Legacy Books Press.
                                    > > > http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html#Bayonet
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > Aaron Miedema, B.F.A., B.A., M.A.
                                    > Historian
                                    > Author of *Bayonets and Blobsticks, The Canadian Experience of Close Combat
                                    > 1915-1918*, available from Legacy Books Press.
                                    > http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html#Bayonet
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >



                                    --
                                    Aaron Miedema, B.F.A., B.A., M.A.
                                    Historian
                                    Author of *Bayonets and Blobsticks, The Canadian Experience of Close Combat
                                    1915-1918*, available from Legacy Books Press.
                                    http://www.legacybookspress.com/books.html#Bayonet


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