Re: [E_Rapier] Hand Parries to the Wrist and Upper Arm
- That doesn't mean the class couldn't be run under the A&S catagory that permits the non sparring demonstrations of
period martial arts.
> There goes a whole bunch of close work with longsword...
> And I was so looking forward to the class with the description:
> Description: Codex Wallerstein is a
> comprehensive and essential source for understanding medieval German unarmed combat. In this class we will explore
> just one section of this manual: the counters to strikes with the hand. These counters include throws, arm-breaks and
> counter-strikes, among others.
> Trust me Albrecht, it's all "fleeting" contact, none of it intentional...
> From: Eve Harris & David Stamper <evedave1@...>
> To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com; RapierMarshals@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, May 26, 2010 4:43:16 PM
> Subject: [E_Rapier] Hand Parries to the Wrist and Upper Arm
> There has been some discussion recently on the KRM List regarding parries
> with the hand to hand, wrist or upper arm of an opponent. The rule in
> Ealdormere reads thusly:
> G. Parries may be performed with weapons, parrying devices, the gloved
> hand, or any other part of the body. Though the gloved hand may be used to
> parry, it shall not be used to grasp or strike an opponent. Fleeting
> contact between opponents is allowed, as long as no grabbling, deliberate
> striking, or other unsafe behaviour occurs.
> This is the same as what is written in the SCA Rapier Handbook. According to
> the person who wrote the rule, it was worded as such to allow the kind of
> parries described above and these have been used historically in various
> Kingdoms since the first set of rapier rules were written (c. 1984). IIRC
> previous KRM's have been ok with this but I don't think it's something
> that's been practiced a lot in our Kingdom.
> Apparently the discussion on the KRM list has attracted the attention of the
> Society Earl Marshal. Below is part of the discussion from the list, with
> the statement from the SEM at the top:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "siro@..." <siro@...>
> To: krms@...
> Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 12:17:56 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: Re: [krms] Fwd: Application to conduct an experiment
> I'm not Thomas but I think I can answer this for him.
> As a "less reasonable Society Earl Marshal" I agree that intentional
> contact is grappling as defined by our sports.
> "Incidental contact" or "fleeting" contact is allowed to stop whiners
> from complaining every time they get bumped into.
> And just so you know, this question has come up from the fighting
> community as well.
> The answer there was
> I hope that this is clear and easily understood.
> Anyone seen practicing intentional contact should be warned, then if
> behavior continues, sanctioned and given time off from our sport to
> relect upon the great privilege it is to participate at all.
> Omarad the Wary, KSCA, OP, etc...
> -"less reasonable" Society Earl Marshal
> On 5/23/2010 12:45 PM, Chris Zakes wrote:
> > At 11:31 PM 5/22/2010, you wrote:
> >> Sir Thomas - I suspect that my earlier email to you disappeared into
> >> a spam filter somewhere, hence I'm forwarding this onto the KRMs list.
> >> If anyone else has an opinion on this as well, I'd be interested.
> >> Thanks,
> >> William
> >> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 19:53:18 +1200
> >> From: David Robb <ender@...>
> >> To: rapier@...
> >> Subject: Fwd: Application to conduct an experiment
> >> Greetings Sir Thomas,
> >> One of my deputies here in Lochac has proposed the following
> >> experiment, which I seek your approval for (subject to your answer to
> >> a question below). I support this application as written below, as I
> >> believe this serves two purposes.
> >> Firstly, I believe this expands the available options for combatants
> >> in a manner which is consistent with period technique. Secondly, I
> >> believe this could clarify the grey area that I believe exists at
> >> present when parrying an opponents blade (using the off-hand) when
> >> the opponent is using a simple cross-hilted sword and where contact
> >> with the sword hand is reasonably likely.
> >> However, it has also been asked by my predecessor on our internal
> >> list, whether the current rules would already permit such an action.
> >> In particular, the clause saying "Fleeting contact between opponents
> >> is allowed, as long as no grappling, deliberate striking or other
> >> unsafe behaviour occurs." I personally believe that the action of
> >> pressing against an opponents arm sufficiently to move it would count
> >> as more than fleeting contact, but I do not consider that it would
> >> constitute grappling or deliberate striking (I use striking here in
> >> the context of a blow whose impact is the intent rather than the
> >> following push). What is your interpretation of the existing rule and
> >> its applicability to this situation?
> >> Depending on your answer to the above, the successful conclusion to
> >> this experiment may give rise to the need for a change to the society
> >> level rules, or it may be that such an action is already permissable
> >> and merely requires clarification.
> >> Thank you, William de Cameron KRM, Lochac.
> > I'm not Thomas, but I think I can answer this question anyway...
> > Story time, children!
> > Back in the earliest days of SCA rapier, open-hand parries to the
> > wrist werea common practice, and were specifically allowed in the
> > first edition of the Corporate Rapier Rules. (See section III.A.9
> > here: http://moondragon.info/wiki/Original_SCA_Rapier_Rules)
> > Over the next couple of rewrites, that rule was dropped in the
> > interest of keeping the rules as concise as possible and because
> > "everybody knows that." About seven years ago, however, the Society
> > Earl Marshal arbitrarily decided that the hand-on-wrist parries we'd
> > been using safely for over 25 years at that point constitued
> > "grappling" and therefore weren't allowed.
> > Four years ago, when we got a more reasonable Society Earl Marshal,
> > the rules were re-written to include "fleeting contact" with the
> > specific intention of re-allowing hand-on wrist parries.
> > So at most, you'd need an in-kingdom experiment and training period,
> > to make sure people know the difference between parrying the wrist and
> > grabbing the wrist (this shouldn't be difficult, since, presumably,
> > they already know the difference between parrying a blade and grabbing
> > it) but you shouldn't need specific Corporate approval to do so.
> > -Tivar Moondragon
> > Ansteorra
> > fossil-in-residence
> SO, apparently, right now, based on the above decision we are not allowed to
> parry the hand or arm of our opponent with our hand. I do not agree with
> this decision as it seems to fly in the face of 20 years+ of safe usage but
> I am bound by that decision. An open handed parry does not, to my mind,
> represent anything like grappling. The decision doesn't affect us greatly as
> I don't think it is a common practice here, but I know it's been discussed
> in the past and was generally felt to be "ok". If anything does change I
> will let these lists know right away. Hopefully the SEM can be convinced to
> change his mind about this. I would ask that if you know anyone not on these
> lists who fences, please let them know about the decision.
> Yours in Service
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lentus autem non celer sum.