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RE: [E_Rapier] Re: Letter about gorgets...

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  • Eve Harris & David Stamper
    Then language, at Society level, needs to be changed to neck as was envisioned , if necessary. He specifically mentions blunt trauma to the carotid, which is
    Message 1 of 51 , May 11, 2010
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      Then language, at Society level, needs to be changed to neck as was
      "envisioned", if necessary. He specifically mentions blunt trauma to the
      carotid, which is covered by the rule I have proposed. I've also checked the
      armoured combat rule in the Society Marshal's Handbook and it specifies
      neck:



      D. Neck Armor: The neck, including the larynx, cervical vertebrae, and first
      thoracic vertebra must be covered by one or a combination of the following
      and must stay covered during typical combat situations, including turning
      the head, lifting the chin, etc.:

      1. The helm,

      2. A gorget of rigid material.

      3. A mail or heavy leather camail or aventail that hangs or drapes to absorb
      the force of a blow. If the camail or aventail lays in contact with the
      larynx, cervical vertebrae, or first thoracic vertebra, that section must be
      padded with a minimum of .25in (6mm) of close cell foam or equivalent.

      4. A collar of heavy leather lined with a minimum of .25in (6mm) of close
      cell foam or equivalent.





      My personal preference (repeat, personal) is a solid gorget. It makes me
      feel more secure and I don't find it particularly uncomfortable. I've been
      wearing one since we started the schlager experiment many moons ago so I
      guess I'm used to it. Does it provide me with greater protection than a
      gorget constructed using the proposed rule? Perhaps a little bit. I think
      the solid gorget can distribute the force of a blow a bit more evenly than a
      brigantine type gorget. Would I be comfortable wearing a gorget under the
      proposed rule? Yes, I would be, as long as it covered the appropriate areas.




      Does the rule, as purposed, cover Baron Giovanni the Elder's concern in
      regards to the carotid artery? The neck isn't that big of a thing, and if
      the carotids are covered you are approaching 75-80% coverage. The only
      things that would not have rigid directly over them would be neck tendons
      that support the head and I think those would be difficult to damage in any
      permanent way.



      Albrecht, KRM Ealdormere



      _____

      From: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com [mailto:E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Aaron Gormanshaw
      Sent: May 11, 2010 1:16 PM
      To: E_Rapier@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [E_Rapier] Re: Letter about gorgets...





      To quote Aldrecht:

      "Perhaps the thing to do would be to more rigidly define what we mean by
      throat to insure that the arteries and veins are protected."

      To quote Giovanni the Elder:

      "We envisioned rigid coverage as surrounding the neck, subject to the same
      allowance for hinges as in a armored combat dog collar or mantle-type
      gorget."

      ________________________________
      From: Eve Harris & David Stamper <evedave1@rogers.
      <mailto:evedave1%40rogers.com> com>
      To: E_Rapier@yahoogroup <mailto:E_Rapier%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
      Sent: Tue, May 11, 2010 1:05:11 PM
      Subject: RE: [E_Rapier] Re: Letter about gorgets...


      Ok, I think I can see where some of the problem is coming from. Wilhelm
      states in his letter:

      Second the risk to myself is much lower (we are looking at tendons and
      muscles, not an airway and blood
      vessels and veins like the throat).

      So, Wilhelm is stating that his current design of gorget does cover the
      blood vessels of the throat, which seems to be the main point of contention.
      From looking at various anatomy images the front of the neck is pretty
      tightly packed with all the important bits, including: the internal and
      external carotid, the internal and external jugular vein, the superficial
      cervical artery, and the inferior thyroid vein. They aren't really in the
      sides of the neck, but closer to the front. Check your pulse and see where
      you place your fingers to get the best result. For those who are curious,
      here is the diagram I'm looking at:

      http://catalog. nucleusinc. com/enlargeexhib it.php?ID= 4934

      Here is one definition of throat (from
      http://www.medterms .com/script/ main/art. asp?articlekey= 53392)

      Throat: The throat is the anterior (front) portion of the neck
      <http://www.medterms .com/script/ main/art. asp?articlekey= 16929> beginning
      at
      the back of the mouth
      <http://www.medterms .com/script/ main/art. asp?articlekey= 33422> ,
      consisting
      anatomically of the pharynx
      <http://www.medterms .com/script/ main/art. asp?articlekey= 4863> and larynx
      <http://www.medterms .com/script/ main/art. asp?articlekey= 6224> . The
      throat
      contains the trachea
      <http://www.medterms .com/script/ main/art. asp?articlekey= 5829> and a
      portion
      of the esophagus
      <http://www.medterms .com/script/ main/art. asp?articlekey= 3326> .

      So, does this definition of throat overlap with the locations of the major
      veins and arteries in the neck? As far as I can tell, it does not. It's
      close, but under the strict definition of throat, if the above can be
      accepted as an adequate definition, throat doesn't cover the blood supply to
      the brain. Wilhelm, according to his statement quoted above, actually covers
      more than just the throat with his current gorget design, so there is not an
      issue with his particular take on gorgets. There is still the possibility
      that someone will design and use a gorget that uses a very narrow definition
      of throat. They may be out there right now.

      Perhaps the thing to do would be to more rigidly define what we mean by
      throat to insure that the arteries and veins are protected. The rules, as
      quoted by Wilhelm states:

      For heavy rapier and cut and thrust rapier, additional throat protection is
      required; it shall consist of rigid material, as noted above, covering the
      entire throat, and shall be backed by either puncture resistant material (as
      a hood), one quarter inch (1/4") (6 mm) of open-cell foam, or their
      equivalents. The cervical vertebrae shall also be protected by rigid
      material, provided by some combination of gorget, helm, and/or hood insert.

      Perhaps this could be changed to:

      For heavy rapier and cut and thrust rapier, additional throat protection is
      required; it shall consist of rigid material, as noted above, covering the
      entire throat including the carotid arteries and jugular veins, and shall be
      backed by either puncture resistant material (as a hood), one quarter inch
      (1/4") (6 mm) of open-cell foam, or their equivalents. The cervical
      vertebrae shall also be protected by rigid material, provided by some
      combination of gorget, helm, and/or hood insert.

      I guess, like in many of the debates that arise out of our rules, it's all a
      matter of definition. I see that Baron Giovanni di Fiamma has posted his
      comments via Hoskuld and I think we're pretty close to the intent of the
      rule, but as noted above, we may want to slightly expand our definition of
      throat to make sure the important veins and arteries are covered.

      If I am completely out to lunch here on my interpretation of the debate,
      please feel free to enlighten me as to the error of my ways.

      Albrecht

      KRM, Ealdormere

      _____

      From: E_Rapier@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:E_Rapier@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf
      Of Yvonne
      Sent: May 11, 2010 11:50 AM
      To: E_Rapier@yahoogroup s.com
      Subject: [E_Rapier] Re: Letter about gorgets...

      The current rules as defined only protect the gorge and C5,C6 vertebrae from
      crushing damage.

      Having spoken with Dr. Bill, Baron Don Giovanni, the KRM of Trimarais, who
      is also an ER doctor by profession; I know that it is felt the caroditid
      artries also require protection(sides of the neck), hence the review of more
      rigid material around the neck. The thought is to provide protection to
      those artires from crushing damage( accidents happen).

      I agree with this level of protection and currently wear a full metal
      gorget.

      Jocelyn

      --- In E_Rapier@yahoogroup <mailto:E_Rapier% 40yahoogroups. com> s.com, Ross
      Weaver <ross.weaver@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > I've typed this letter up about possible changes to the gorget rules,
      > I'm going to send it to Albretch and the Society rapier marshal. What
      > do people think of the letter, any feed back from other marshals? Is
      > anyone else with me on not stopping a proposed rule change? If so let
      > me know, I can add you to the list of concerned marshals, OR send your
      > letter (which will have more impact).
      > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
      > I found out that it was going to be proposed that the rules on gorgets
      > be changed to require rigid protection all the way arround the neck
      > (the wording given to me was 95% coverage). The current rule is:
      >
      > For heavy rapier and cut and thrust rapier, additional throat
      > protection is required; it shall consist of rigid material, as noted
      > above, covering the entire throat, and shall be backed by either
      > puncture resistant material (as a hood), one quarter inch (1/4") (6
      > mm) of open-cell foam, or their equivalents. The cervical vertebrae
      > shall also be protected by rigid material, provided by some
      > combination of gorget, helm, and/or hood insert.
      >
      > I have been fencing with heavy rapier for 15 years in the SCA, and
      > participated in Cut and Thrust since the start of the experiment. And
      > I feel absolutely safe with only by throat and vertebrae having rigid
      > coverage. I find the sides of my neck are more than protected enough
      > by resistant material (in my case it is soft leather and a cowl). I
      > don't feel there is a large enough risk to the side of my neck to
      > require more protection. First the chance of being hit there is much
      > lower than say the throat. Second the risk to myself is much lower
      > (we are looking at tendons and muscles, not an airway and blood
      > vessels and veins like the throat).
      >
      > As an engineer I don't see requiring rigid protection on the side of
      > the neck making any noticeable reduction in risk for SCA heavy rapier.
      > There are several other locations on the body where a hard hit, with
      > or without a tip will do more damage than the side of the neck, and
      > they are not covered with rigid protection, and they are far more
      > likely to be hit than the side of the neck. If SCA inc. does not feel
      > it necessary to increase protection elsewhere to reduce risk, than
      > there is no need to require additional protection on the neck.
      >
      > From the description of what was going to be legal after the changes
      > the choice of legal gorgets goes down and options on design goes down
      > as well. In many ways it makes it much more difficult for a new
      > combatant to make their own gorgets and pretty much requires that
      > gorgets be made by professional or semi-professional armourers, or at
      > least people with access to a well stocked shops. This will create a
      > larger barrier to new people, and honestly we have a hard enough time
      > getting new SCA members, let alone rapier combatants.
      >
      > When considering increasing the requirements for neck protection
      > please consider:
      > 1. Have there been any critical injuries to the side of a SCA heavy
      > rapier combatants neck?
      > 2. What are trying to protect against? What kind of hit? How likely
      > is that hit? Is the risk only if there is a broken blade or is the
      > risk in normal combat? (I feel that rigid protection is necessary if
      > there is a risk of significant injury with a normal blunted and tipped
      > blade.)
      > 3. Does this truly reduce the risks associated with rapier combat?
      > Or does it just look like a significant reduction in risk?
      > 4. How much will this inconvenient current participants (replacing
      > gorgets, changing their kit)? Does this create a larger barrier to
      > entry for participants?
      >
      > Please consider all of this. When I was KRM of Ealdormere a previous
      > KRM gave me one piece of advice that I found very valuable and one of
      > the greatest guides on improving rapier in Ealdormere (and I have been
      > told I did make a significant impact and improvements) . "Don't change
      > a rule for the sake of changing a rule. If nothing is gained by
      > changing it, then you are only losing opportunities. "
      >
      > I used this guideline, often, looking at what is really gained by a
      > rule change, versus what can be lost. It is amazing how often you can
      > realize a proposed rule change or policy change really is only placebo
      > that does nothing when you weigh things out first, and you can save a
      > lot of time, effort and stress not trying to changes things that don't
      > need changing.
      >
      > I feel nothing is really gained by changing the rules on neck
      > protection, we only lose opportunities and create larger barriers for
      > new people.
      >
      > In Service,
      > The Honourable Lord Wilhelm von Pottruff,
      > SCA Rapier Marshal
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kathleen Gormanshaw
      ... hmm... oh yeah, both cards are blue! ... While lots of dummys are available, finding a way to simulate the neck underneath is harder. ... Sure :-) Though
      Message 51 of 51 , May 12, 2010
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        On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 3:18 PM, M <menzinas@...> wrote:
        >> > I can't go around strangling members of my Barony! For any reason. Even educational ones.
        >> You don't have to strangle him to death, just a little demonstration.
        >
        > That is the 'Society for Consenting Adults' not 'Society for Creative Anacronism' don't get them confused.

        hmm... oh yeah, both cards are blue!

        > How about a mythbuster's approch? Put the gorget(s) on a dummy and wack the dummy with a sword?

        While lots of dummys are available, finding a way to simulate the neck
        underneath is harder.

        > ps wanna wrestle?

        Sure :-) Though my impression is that you're learning to fight,
        unlike judo which is very much a sport.

        Eyrny
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