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Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards

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  • Jennifer Heise
    Sittin in the back row... ... *snort* This is the East. We re agin it-- as a whole, the East don t take *rulings* no matter how sensible. If there was a
    Message 1 of 29 , May 1 5:42 AM
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      Sittin' in the back row...

      > Lastly, it has been my experience in the East Kingdom that we are not sheep
      > to be lead from above. That we do not just suck it up and take bad rulings
      > from society officers and even sometimes from the BOD. We express ourselves
      > and fight within the rules to do what we think is right.
      >
      *snort*

      This is the East. We're agin it-- as a whole, the East don't take *rulings*
      no matter how sensible. If there was a Ruling from society that said "Drink
      water when you're dehydrated" SCA-East would be full of people complaining.

      Now, when it comes to leadership from someone who has captured people's
      imagination, there will be significant population perfectly ready to march
      off a cliff singing war songs, over the bodies of the fallen if need be.

      This particular ruling was bound to collect more angst than usual, being as
      it 1) involves constraining fighters, something the East is particularly
      resistant to do, especially in areas of historicity, since the East has
      traditionally been a heavily martial-sports kingdom, and 2) We are going
      through a period of increased irritation at what the trendsetters of the
      East have viewed for years as the evil SCA inc. (While I can imagine
      corporate and society organization and operation changing, I can't imagine
      the view thatt he trendsetters of the East of "from above" changing. Thus
      is the advantage of tradition over law; one can CHANGE law.)

      Traditionally, in the East, the fighting field has been held harmless from
      any requests to comply with the pre-17th c. clothing rule, which is why you
      see men (and sometimes women) wearing t-shirts and jeans, knee pads and
      paldrons standing around the field. Apparently, the SEM finds this troubling
      enough to require fighters to make an attempt with their armor while they
      are *in* it. I suppose he could have gone out and made-- or had his sewing
      friends make-- tabards for lazily-dressed/armored fighters instead, but he
      didn't. This ruling puts the onus on the fighters wearing the armor, rather
      than those around them, which is one advantage I see of the ruling over your
      comments, Master Lawrence.

      Other than that, I have no opinion on such things, having been told long ago
      by an MOL and a local knight-marshall that as a non-fighter I had no
      business having opinions about anything involving fighting or fighters. But
      let's not pretend that the East as a whole, especially in its online
      presence, is ever going to be anything but contentious about things.

      --
      Jennifer Heise

      known in the SCA as Jadwiga Zajaczkowa


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Joel Doner
      Jadwiga:   First, you like all citizen s of the East absolutely have the right to comment on martial activities in the East.  As you pointed out it does
      Message 2 of 29 , May 1 8:33 AM
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        Jadwiga:
         
        First, you like all citizen's of the East absolutely have the right to comment on martial activities in the East.  As you pointed out it does impact those attending the event in addition to those fighting.
         
        I understand that you support the idea of better dressed fighters in the list.  I have heard some argue that this is part of the evolution of the game. However, change for the sake of change is not evolution.  The SCA was created not to be re-creationist organization, but a celebration of the best ideas from that time. For decades we would say we are NOT like the Civil War or Revolutionary War groups.  The direction this rule is taking is forcing us towards re-creationist goals. I find that to be contradictory to the original intent of being a  creative anachronoist instead of being a re-creationist.
         
        Also, do you believe that the ends justify the means?  The reason I ask is that you don't seem to have a problem that the Marshal's Office is able to create a dress code that has nothing to do with safety in the lists. 
         
        Will you be as comfortable with a ruling from a Society Officer about dress codes for Court, in order to receive a scroll, or to receive an award in order to make Court more aesthetically pleasing as some want in the lists?
         
        Whether you support or oppose this policy, shouldn't a decision like this have been made by the Royalty in curia instead of the SEM?
         
        Lawrence
         
        .

        --- On Sat, 5/1/10, Jennifer Heise <jenne.heise@...> wrote:


        From: Jennifer Heise <jenne.heise@...>
        Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
        To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, May 1, 2010, 8:42 AM


         



        Sittin' in the back row...

        > Lastly, it has been my experience in the East Kingdom that we are not sheep
        > to be lead from above. That we do not just suck it up and take bad rulings
        > from society officers and even sometimes from the BOD. We express ourselves
        > and fight within the rules to do what we think is right.
        >
        *snort*

        This is the East. We're agin it-- as a whole, the East don't take *rulings*
        no matter how sensible. If there was a Ruling from society that said "Drink
        water when you're dehydrated" SCA-East would be full of people complaining.

        Now, when it comes to leadership from someone who has captured people's
        imagination, there will be significant population perfectly ready to march
        off a cliff singing war songs, over the bodies of the fallen if need be.

        This particular ruling was bound to collect more angst than usual, being as
        it 1) involves constraining fighters, something the East is particularly
        resistant to do, especially in areas of historicity, since the East has
        traditionally been a heavily martial-sports kingdom, and 2) We are going
        through a period of increased irritation at what the trendsetters of the
        East have viewed for years as the evil SCA inc. (While I can imagine
        corporate and society organization and operation changing, I can't imagine
        the view thatt he trendsetters of the East of "from above" changing. Thus
        is the advantage of tradition over law; one can CHANGE law.)

        Traditionally, in the East, the fighting field has been held harmless from
        any requests to comply with the pre-17th c. clothing rule, which is why you
        see men (and sometimes women) wearing t-shirts and jeans, knee pads and
        paldrons standing around the field. Apparently, the SEM finds this troubling
        enough to require fighters to make an attempt with their armor while they
        are *in* it. I suppose he could have gone out and made-- or had his sewing
        friends make-- tabards for lazily-dressed/ armored fighters instead, but he
        didn't. This ruling puts the onus on the fighters wearing the armor, rather
        than those around them, which is one advantage I see of the ruling over your
        comments, Master Lawrence.

        Other than that, I have no opinion on such things, having been told long ago
        by an MOL and a local knight-marshall that as a non-fighter I had no
        business having opinions about anything involving fighting or fighters. But
        let's not pretend that the East as a whole, especially in its online
        presence, is ever going to be anything but contentious about things.

        --
        Jennifer Heise

        known in the SCA as Jadwiga Zajaczkowa

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bob Davis
        I m not Jadwiga, but thought I d opine. ... Trouble is, the SCA appears to me to have moved beyond your definition of it. It is no longer 1968, or even 1998
        Message 3 of 29 , May 1 8:54 AM
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          I'm not Jadwiga, but thought I'd opine.

          Joel Doner wrote:

          > I understand that you support the idea of better dressed fighters in
          > the list. I have heard some argue that this is part of the evolution
          > of the game. However, change for the sake of change is not evolution.
          > The SCA was created not to be re-creationist organization, but a
          > celebration of the best ideas from that time. For decades we would
          > say we are NOT like the Civil War or Revolutionary War groups. The
          > direction this rule is taking is forcing us towards re-creationist
          > goals. I find that to be contradictory to the original intent of
          > being a creative anachronoist instead of being a re-creationist.

          Trouble is, the SCA appears to me to have moved beyond your definition
          of it. It is no longer 1968, or even 1998 (when I came East from
          AEthelmearc). This is not a rule "forcing us towards re-creationist
          goals", to my mind; it is a codification of an already widespread trend,
          a redefinition of what you consider the SCA to still be.

          I submit to you the SCA has changed around you, and no longer can be
          defined by your definition of it. By its own propaganda and governing
          documents, the SCA has defined itself as a medieval-studies
          organization. The SCA is no longer a themed garden party, and those who
          persist in defining it as such are only fooling themselves.

          > Also, do you believe that the ends justify the means? The reason I
          > ask is that you don't seem to have a problem that the Marshal's
          > Office is able to create a dress code that has nothing to do with
          > safety in the lists.

          Neither do I. I don't understand why you have a problem with an
          appearance standard.

          > Will you be as comfortable with a ruling from a Society Officer about
          > dress codes for Court, in order to receive a scroll, or to receive an
          > award in order to make Court more aesthetically pleasing as some want
          > in the lists?

          Yes. As a matter of fact, such a requirement already exists. I refer
          you to Corpora VII.A.1.

          > Whether you support or oppose this policy, shouldn't a decision like
          > this have been made by the Royalty in curia instead of the SEM?

          Well, since the guy in the hat on the chair can tell the KEM - who has
          the onus of implementing the new rule - to get stuffed, practically
          speaking the decision has been made. The Crown has to approve any
          changes made, and can set aside that which s/he doesn't like. There may
          be consequences for that, of course.

          For your information, this rule was implemented some several years ago
          by a king in Atlantia, presumably with the blessing of their curia.

          I'm thinking it's not the rule with which you have a problem; it's the
          means by which the rule was disseminated.

          Respectfully,

          R Fairfax
        • William Trommelen
          I really was going to stay out of this but I have to speak up… I am rather surprised that people are looking past the entire substance of Larry’s argument
          Message 4 of 29 , May 1 11:15 AM
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            I really was going to stay out of this but I have to speak up…

            I am rather surprised that people are looking past the entire substance of Larry’s argument in what appears to be a defense of a ruling that they themselves like and thus do not want to see go away.



            At no time has Larry said the rule is bad and evil. At no time has he said he would thumb his nose at it or the already existing rule that makes this rule redundant and pointless (IMO). At no time did he chastise anyone for having an opinion counter to his own.

            Some of the replies have been very well thought out and polite and still didn’t really counter the real thrust of Larry’s argument. Several of the replies have been in fact rather rude and presumptuous of Larry’s intent. To those that decided to use ad hominem arguments I would ask that you stop and really look at yourself and your actions. Baron Larry is a peer of this realm and has a proven track record of doing what he feels is right and honorable for a kingdom he has loved for over 30 years. If you do not have the honor of knowing him then your SCA experience is lesser for it. Attacking his person or motivations to defend a rule change is poor judgment at best.



            The point of this entire argument is not whether or not the rule should exist. It’s that the person who made it did not have the authority to do so.

            This would be akin to an NBA ref assigning a fine to a player. Yes that ref (even the head ref for the league) has powers. Yes they might be doing what they think is right. Heck, they might even BE right. But assigning that fine is someone else’s job.



            A marshals job revolves around safety of the list. In no way does this ruling even touch list safety. This rule (which I actually support in some ways, even if I think it’s very poorly worded) needs to come from either Curia or the BoD. Personally I would rather see it from Curia because in general the BoD goes way too far when they get involved.



            In service

            Griffith Davion



            From: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com [mailto:EKSouth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Davis
            Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 11:55 AM
            To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards





            I'm not Jadwiga, but thought I'd opine.

            Joel Doner wrote:

            > I understand that you support the idea of better dressed fighters in
            > the list. I have heard some argue that this is part of the evolution
            > of the game. However, change for the sake of change is not evolution.
            > The SCA was created not to be re-creationist organization, but a
            > celebration of the best ideas from that time. For decades we would
            > say we are NOT like the Civil War or Revolutionary War groups. The
            > direction this rule is taking is forcing us towards re-creationist
            > goals. I find that to be contradictory to the original intent of
            > being a creative anachronoist instead of being a re-creationist.

            Trouble is, the SCA appears to me to have moved beyond your definition
            of it. It is no longer 1968, or even 1998 (when I came East from
            AEthelmearc). This is not a rule "forcing us towards re-creationist
            goals", to my mind; it is a codification of an already widespread trend,
            a redefinition of what you consider the SCA to still be.

            I submit to you the SCA has changed around you, and no longer can be
            defined by your definition of it. By its own propaganda and governing
            documents, the SCA has defined itself as a medieval-studies
            organization. The SCA is no longer a themed garden party, and those who
            persist in defining it as such are only fooling themselves.

            > Also, do you believe that the ends justify the means? The reason I
            > ask is that you don't seem to have a problem that the Marshal's
            > Office is able to create a dress code that has nothing to do with
            > safety in the lists.

            Neither do I. I don't understand why you have a problem with an
            appearance standard.

            > Will you be as comfortable with a ruling from a Society Officer about
            > dress codes for Court, in order to receive a scroll, or to receive an
            > award in order to make Court more aesthetically pleasing as some want
            > in the lists?

            Yes. As a matter of fact, such a requirement already exists. I refer
            you to Corpora VII.A.1.

            > Whether you support or oppose this policy, shouldn't a decision like
            > this have been made by the Royalty in curia instead of the SEM?

            Well, since the guy in the hat on the chair can tell the KEM - who has
            the onus of implementing the new rule - to get stuffed, practically
            speaking the decision has been made. The Crown has to approve any
            changes made, and can set aside that which s/he doesn't like. There may
            be consequences for that, of course.

            For your information, this rule was implemented some several years ago
            by a king in Atlantia, presumably with the blessing of their curia.

            I'm thinking it's not the rule with which you have a problem; it's the
            means by which the rule was disseminated.

            Respectfully,

            R Fairfax





            __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5077 (20100501) __________

            The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

            http://www.eset.com



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Joel Doner
            Lord Robert:   First, let me say that you are right that I have real problem with how this was done.  I believe that SEM has exceeded his authority. I think
            Message 5 of 29 , May 1 8:39 PM
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              Lord Robert:
               
              First, let me say that you are right that I have real problem with how this was done.  I believe that SEM has exceeded his authority. I think everyone should be concerned with this point. This time he has done something you like, so it does not appear to be a problem. But what will do if the next SEM may do something you don't like? You will not be able to argue that he has exceeded his authority then, because this time you said it was okay. 
               
              You may be right that I speak for a minority.  Then again, you may be speaking for the opinion of a small but vocal minority.  However, don't you agree that this type of decision should have come from us and not from the SEM? Then, we would know how our Kingdom really feels.
               
              I am a monarchist at heart and I have to admit that if our Royalty wants this and says so, I will have no issue with their decision. However, they have not expressed their decision and silence is not an endorsement. 
               
              The worst kind of evil is when good men do nothing in the face of something they know is wrong. The way this was done is wrong and we should not stand for it.  This is not the first time the East has stood up to a society officer and has won.  I hope it is not the last time.  And yes, there was a price to be paid last time for opposing a society officer for what we believed in, but it was worth it.
               
              As for your point that Atlantia has done this for years. My response is, who cares what Atlantia or any other Kingdom does at their events. The Mid-Realm has an invitational Crown Tourney. The West has no equivalent of the OTC. I hear they call that award Viscount. Ansteorra has standardized scrolls for AOAs.  That might work well for them, but that has no bearing on how we should do things in the East.  We should do what works for us.
               
              I agree that it is no longer 1968, 1998 or even 2008.  But, that does not mean we give up the ideas that are at the heart of our Society and Kingdom. Some truths, even unwritten truths transcend time. Perhaps that is why were are anachronists to begin with and try to preserve the best ideas from times long ago.  I don't think my understanding or definition of what our society should be are no longer applicable as you suggested.
               
              We bend the definition of our game all the time. We allow non-European personas, pre-roman personas (The Spartans), roman personas (The Romans and Legio Draconis) and post 17th century personas, (Most of the fencing community is post 1600.) and the Tuchux. None of their armor even remotely fits into the Pre-17th Century European era. Will they be next to go? I know some have said they would defend thier right to stay. But if they allow this current marshal's policy to go unchallenged, they will have no tools to do so. 
               
              We have always been an inclusive society. This rule is exclusive in it's design. I hate to think that we are becoming an exclusive society.
               
              Lawrence 


              --- On Sat, 5/1/10, Bob Davis <bob@...> wrote:


              From: Bob Davis <bob@...>
              Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
              To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, May 1, 2010, 11:54 AM


               



              I'm not Jadwiga, but thought I'd opine.

              Joel Doner wrote:

              > I understand that you support the idea of better dressed fighters in
              > the list. I have heard some argue that this is part of the evolution
              > of the game. However, change for the sake of change is not evolution.
              > The SCA was created not to be re-creationist organization, but a
              > celebration of the best ideas from that time. For decades we would
              > say we are NOT like the Civil War or Revolutionary War groups. The
              > direction this rule is taking is forcing us towards re-creationist
              > goals. I find that to be contradictory to the original intent of
              > being a creative anachronoist instead of being a re-creationist.

              Trouble is, the SCA appears to me to have moved beyond your definition
              of it. It is no longer 1968, or even 1998 (when I came East from
              AEthelmearc) . This is not a rule "forcing us towards re-creationist
              goals", to my mind; it is a codification of an already widespread trend,
              a redefinition of what you consider the SCA to still be.

              I submit to you the SCA has changed around you, and no longer can be
              defined by your definition of it. By its own propaganda and governing
              documents, the SCA has defined itself as a medieval-studies
              organization. The SCA is no longer a themed garden party, and those who
              persist in defining it as such are only fooling themselves.

              > Also, do you believe that the ends justify the means? The reason I
              > ask is that you don't seem to have a problem that the Marshal's
              > Office is able to create a dress code that has nothing to do with
              > safety in the lists.

              Neither do I. I don't understand why you have a problem with an
              appearance standard.

              > Will you be as comfortable with a ruling from a Society Officer about
              > dress codes for Court, in order to receive a scroll, or to receive an
              > award in order to make Court more aesthetically pleasing as some want
              > in the lists?

              Yes. As a matter of fact, such a requirement already exists. I refer
              you to Corpora VII.A.1.

              > Whether you support or oppose this policy, shouldn't a decision like
              > this have been made by the Royalty in curia instead of the SEM?

              Well, since the guy in the hat on the chair can tell the KEM - who has
              the onus of implementing the new rule - to get stuffed, practically
              speaking the decision has been made. The Crown has to approve any
              changes made, and can set aside that which s/he doesn't like. There may
              be consequences for that, of course.

              For your information, this rule was implemented some several years ago
              by a king in Atlantia, presumably with the blessing of their curia.

              I'm thinking it's not the rule with which you have a problem; it's the
              means by which the rule was disseminated.

              Respectfully,

              R Fairfax










              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • apyrich@concentric.net
              ... In fact, most of the fencing community is not post 1600. I thought we had put this myth to bed 15 years ago. Things that are recognizably fencing can
              Message 6 of 29 , May 1 10:47 PM
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                > (Most of the fencing community is post 1600.) 

                In fact, "most" of the fencing community is not post 1600. I thought we had
                put this myth to bed 15 years ago. Things that are recognizably fencing
                can be documented well prior to 1600. While there are a couple of people
                who will never be persuaded to give up their Cavalier (and bless their
                hearts), what passes for fashion among Eastern fencers trends toward
                generic Elizabethan or earlier. I'd wager than on any given day you'll find
                more Vikings on the fencing field in the East than Cavaliers. Certainly that
                was the case at King's and Queen's Fencing this year.

                In other words, don't drag the fencers into this discussion please. We're
                just going about our business peacefully over here while you all whip
                yourselves up into unnecessary hysteria.

                If the SEM's ruling bugs you, then complain to the people who can do
                something about it: the Society Earl Marshal himself and the Board of
                Directors. Here's the contact information for the ombudsman for the East
                Kingdom:

                Mark Faulcon (Duke Martin Lochner, KSCA)
                Ombudsman for: Æthelmearc, East, Middle, Information Technology
                Mr. Faulcon can be contacted at 407-826-1492 or via email at
                mfaulcon@....

                Here's the contact information for the ombudsman in charge of marshal
                activities:

                Tom Noble (Dux Lucius Aurelius Valharic KSCA, OL,)
                Ombudsman for: Caid, West, Arts & Sciences, Atenveldt, Artemisia,
                Marshal
                Mr. Noble can be contacted at 216-226-7038 or via email at
                tnoble@....


                Cordially but wearily,
                Mistress Alys Mackyntoich
                (a Companion of the Golden Rapier and not at all post-1600)


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • James Peck
                Exactly. Picking on the fencers as a group in many kingdoms that was consistently in violation of the ‘attempt at pre-17th century appearance’ used to be
                Message 7 of 29 , May 2 3:46 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Exactly.



                  Picking on the fencers as a group in many kingdoms that was consistently in
                  violation of the ‘attempt at pre-17th century appearance’ used to be 100%
                  justified. I was one of those criticizing them for a long time. But no one
                  should think that the willful violation went unnoticed, was accepted or
                  condoned.



                  Indeed that is one of the reasons the fencers were in many cased derided for
                  years as a community.



                  For the most part, the fencers have made a big change society wide and
                  especially here in the East. Those playing the game according to the rules
                  far exceed the number who ignore them.



                  So while it probably sounds funny coming from me, the majority of the
                  fencers do try to dress the part.



                  In fact on average, I have to admit that the majority of fencers society
                  wide often look more period correct in the lists than many heavy weapons
                  fighters do.



                  I still pick on the fencers who are out of period and will continue to do so
                  just like I pick on any Tuchux who wear fantasy garb/armour (many have
                  improved and look no different than the rest of us), but in the East the
                  problem fencers are generally the exception to the rule or we are talking
                  about their hand protection (I dislike some of the out of period hand
                  protection there just as much as I dislike some of the heavy weapons out of
                  period hand protection such as exposed hockey gloves, but that is really
                  more of a safety matter). Yes I’ll pick on their rubber band guns, I still
                  hate those. You should not get a peerage in my opinion if you spend any part
                  of your time in the lists shooting people with rubber bands at a distance
                  instead of defeating them up close and personal using your rapier, but of
                  course that is only my opinion.



                  In the East at least, some of the most dedicated, helpful, period accurate
                  in garb or in the lists are fencers. They often put we fighters to shame by
                  comparision.



                  But this should not become a fencers vs. Tuchux. Vs. fighters comparision.



                  Each group needs to do whatever is appropriate to fix problems in its area.
                  For fighters, we have the exposed plastic and sports gear problem that the
                  fencers don’t for the most part. In my opinion it is a problem anyway, so
                  I’m glad to see it being addressed. The cavalier fencers & out of period
                  17th-18th century Yarr pirates in the fencing lists are a separate problem.
                  The Tuchux whom I used to want tossed out as a group, I’m learning to
                  tolerate those that have stopped violating our rules; the rest can and
                  should go as far as I’m concerned, but the number of bunny fur barbarians
                  with fantasy armour and a bad attitude has gone down every year and I’d be
                  remiss in not noting the progress there.



                  It would be great if we could start finding solutions and continue working
                  with each other on all these different problems as individual problems to be
                  addressed, instead of using any one to justify another. “Oh, we have fencers
                  who are out of period and Tuchux who don’t follow any rules, so none of our
                  rules really need to be followed, people can do whatever they want, whenever
                  they want and let us give up on the SCA being what it claims to be. Medieval
                  appearance, an environment based on the activities of the landed nobility of
                  Europe & visitors to it, chivalric ideals and knightly/noble courtesy are so
                  yesterday, why bother with all that outdated nonsense. Let’s just have a
                  beer, put on some steampunk outfits, play some Enya and party. ”



                  I have to go to work, have fun everybody.



                  Richard Blackmoore



                  _____

                  From: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com [mailto:EKSouth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  apyrich@...
                  Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 1:47 AM
                  To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards





                  > (Most of the fencing community is post 1600.)

                  In fact, "most" of the fencing community is not post 1600. I thought we had
                  put this myth to bed 15 years ago. Things that are recognizably fencing
                  can be documented well prior to 1600. While there are a couple of people
                  who will never be persuaded to give up their Cavalier (and bless their
                  hearts), what passes for fashion among Eastern fencers trends toward
                  generic Elizabethan or earlier. I'd wager than on any given day you'll find
                  more Vikings on the fencing field in the East than Cavaliers. Certainly that

                  was the case at King's and Queen's Fencing this year.

                  In other words, don't drag the fencers into this discussion please. We're
                  just going about our business peacefully over here while you all whip
                  yourselves up into unnecessary hysteria.

                  If the SEM's ruling bugs you, then complain to the people who can do
                  something about it: the Society Earl Marshal himself and the Board of
                  Directors. Here's the contact information for the ombudsman for the East
                  Kingdom:

                  Mark Faulcon (Duke Martin Lochner, KSCA)
                  Ombudsman for: Æthelmearc, East, Middle, Information Technology
                  Mr. Faulcon can be contacted at 407-826-1492 or via email at
                  mfaulcon@director. <mailto:mfaulcon%40director.sca.org> sca.org.

                  Here's the contact information for the ombudsman in charge of marshal
                  activities:

                  Tom Noble (Dux Lucius Aurelius Valharic KSCA, OL,)
                  Ombudsman for: Caid, West, Arts & Sciences, Atenveldt, Artemisia,
                  Marshal
                  Mr. Noble can be contacted at 216-226-7038 or via email at
                  tnoble@director. <mailto:tnoble%40director.sca.org> sca.org.

                  Cordially but wearily,
                  Mistress Alys Mackyntoich
                  (a Companion of the Golden Rapier and not at all post-1600)

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Bob Davis
                  ... I understand now that it s not so much the content of the rule but the manner in which the rule was imposed. I understand that and respect it. I was
                  Message 8 of 29 , May 2 4:15 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Joel Doner wrote:

                    > The worst kind of evil is when good men do nothing in the face of
                    > something they know is wrong. The way this was done is wrong and we
                    > should not stand for it. This is not the first time the East has
                    > stood up to a society officer and has won. I hope it is not the last
                    > time. And yes, there was a price to be paid last time for opposing a
                    > society officer for what we believed in, but it was worth it.

                    I understand now that it's not so much the content of the rule but the
                    manner in which the rule was imposed. I understand that and respect it.
                    I was arguing under the impression it was the content of the rule to
                    which you objected. I'm sorry that we were arguing at cross-purposes.

                    > As for your point that Atlantia has done this for years. My response
                    > is, who cares what Atlantia or any other Kingdom does at their
                    > events. The Mid-Realm has an invitational Crown Tourney. The West has
                    > no equivalent of the OTC. I hear they call that award Viscount.
                    > Ansteorra has standardized scrolls for AOAs. That might work well
                    > for them, but that has no bearing on how we should do things in the
                    > East. We should do what works for us.

                    My point, within the context of the above, about Atlantia was that
                    hand-wringing about the impact of the rule to our fighting community is
                    completely overstated, as the rule or a simple variation thereof is in
                    effect and has been in effect for years in other kingdoms.

                    The SCA did not collapse in a cloud of dust. Somehow people still
                    manage to have fun hitting each other with overgrown blades of grass.

                    I was merely trying to counter what I perceived to be a Chicken Little
                    reaction ("They're trying to make us more medieval! O NOEZ! The sky is
                    falling! The SCA will explode, we'll never be able to recruit again,
                    YIKES!") with fact.

                    > I agree that it is no longer 1968, 1998 or even 2008. But, that does
                    > not mean we give up the ideas that are at the heart of our Society
                    > and Kingdom. Some truths, even unwritten truths transcend time.
                    > Perhaps that is why were are anachronists to begin with and try to
                    > preserve the best ideas from times long ago. I don't think my
                    > understanding or definition of what our society should be are no
                    > longer applicable as you suggested.

                    What ideas are these, then? Perhaps I'm too new (I've only been in the
                    East for 12 years, and in the SCA for 15), but I can't seem to find them.

                    > We bend the definition of our game all the time. We allow
                    > non-European personas, pre-roman personas (The Spartans), roman
                    > personas (The Romans and Legio Draconis) and post 17th century
                    > personas, (Most of the fencing community is post 1600.) and the
                    > Tuchux. None of their armor even remotely fits into the Pre-17th
                    > Century European era. Will they be next to go? I know some have said
                    > they would defend thier right to stay. But if they allow this current
                    > marshal's policy to go unchallenged, they will have no tools to do
                    > so.

                    On the contrary, nowhere in the rule is there any provision that armour
                    must be defensibly historical. Nowhere does it say the armour must
                    conform to a defined period. It only says you have to cover up your
                    obviously modern stuff. If you're wearing exposed blue barrel plastic,
                    it doesn't matter what your persona is. You're wearing blue barrel
                    plastic, and it's as glaring, jarring and inappropriate as elf ears,
                    vampire fangs, or a tricorn and blunderbuss.

                    > We have always been an inclusive society. This rule is exclusive in
                    > it's design. I hate to think that we are becoming an exclusive
                    > society.

                    Again, I ask: What of the people who come expecting knights in shining
                    armour, who expect something more historical? Why is it preferable to
                    be "inclusive" with people who *don't* give a damn about history rather
                    than people who *do*?

                    I hate to think we'd become an exclusive society, too. Striving toward
                    being welcoming to everyone is a noble pursuit - dare I say chivalric?
                    Part of reality, however, is that catering to the lowest common
                    denominator isn't always wise. I'd rather my tilting be at something
                    other than windmills.

                    I was going to say, "Sometimes, in order to save the patient you have to
                    cut a bit off." That's not an accurate analogy, because the presence of
                    Mad Max extras on the field isn't going to kill the SCA. Perhaps a more
                    appopriate analogy is that of a person who's not all that bad-looking
                    who goes for plastic surgery to fix that crooked bit on his nose. Is
                    that really so bad?

                    Now, we're not going to agree on this, mainly because like an idiot I
                    just spent a half-hour arguing at the same stupid cross-purpose.
                    [scratches head]

                    For the record, I respect your dislike of the rule because of the way it
                    was implemented. I understand the other reasons you and others have
                    noted why it's a bad idea; those reasons are the ones I think I'm
                    arguing against.

                    Or something. It's too bleedin' early to really know. I'm gonna go get
                    some coffee. ;-)

                    Regards,

                    Fairfax
                  • Bob Davis
                    ... I forgot to expand upon this before clicking Send . I m seriously asking. It seems that every time a discussion comes up that involves increasing
                    Message 9 of 29 , May 2 4:22 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Bob Davis wrote:

                      >>I agree that it is no longer 1968, 1998 or even 2008. But, that does
                      >>not mean we give up the ideas that are at the heart of our Society
                      >>and Kingdom. Some truths, even unwritten truths transcend time.
                      >>Perhaps that is why were are anachronists to begin with and try to
                      >>preserve the best ideas from times long ago. I don't think my
                      >>understanding or definition of what our society should be are no
                      >>longer applicable as you suggested.
                      >
                      >
                      > What ideas are these, then? Perhaps I'm too new (I've only been in the
                      > East for 12 years, and in the SCA for 15), but I can't seem to find them.

                      I forgot to expand upon this before clicking "Send".

                      I'm seriously asking. It seems that every time a discussion comes up
                      that involves increasing accountability for material culture someone
                      pipes up with this argument.

                      And yet I've never seen a codified answer. I've never even seen two
                      people - who are arguing on the same side - coincide with what they
                      consider those "truths" and "ideas" to be.

                      Somebody help me out, here. What exactly are these truths? Why aren't
                      they codified, or at least more readily available?

                      Sincerely,

                      Fairfax
                    • Joel Doner
                      My apologies for picking on the fencers. That was not my intent.   Did the Fencers have to be legislated into the pre-17th century as done by the SEM  to
                      Message 10 of 29 , May 2 6:14 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        My apologies for picking on the fencers. That was not my intent.
                         
                        Did the Fencers have to be legislated into the pre-17th century as done by the SEM  to the fighters, or was it done though positve encouragement? If was the latter, then shouldn't the fighters get the same?

                        --- On Sun, 5/2/10, James Peck <theregent1@...> wrote:


                        From: James Peck <theregent1@...>
                        Subject: RE: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                        To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 6:46 AM


                         



                        Exactly.

                        Picking on the fencers as a group in many kingdoms that was consistently in
                        violation of the ‘attempt at pre-17th century appearance’ used to be 100%
                        justified. I was one of those criticizing them for a long time. But no one
                        should think that the willful violation went unnoticed, was accepted or
                        condoned.

                        Indeed that is one of the reasons the fencers were in many cased derided for
                        years as a community.

                        For the most part, the fencers have made a big change society wide and
                        especially here in the East. Those playing the game according to the rules
                        far exceed the number who ignore them.

                        So while it probably sounds funny coming from me, the majority of the
                        fencers do try to dress the part.

                        In fact on average, I have to admit that the majority of fencers society
                        wide often look more period correct in the lists than many heavy weapons
                        fighters do.

                        I still pick on the fencers who are out of period and will continue to do so
                        just like I pick on any Tuchux who wear fantasy garb/armour (many have
                        improved and look no different than the rest of us), but in the East the
                        problem fencers are generally the exception to the rule or we are talking
                        about their hand protection (I dislike some of the out of period hand
                        protection there just as much as I dislike some of the heavy weapons out of
                        period hand protection such as exposed hockey gloves, but that is really
                        more of a safety matter). Yes I’ll pick on their rubber band guns, I still
                        hate those. You should not get a peerage in my opinion if you spend any part
                        of your time in the lists shooting people with rubber bands at a distance
                        instead of defeating them up close and personal using your rapier, but of
                        course that is only my opinion.

                        In the East at least, some of the most dedicated, helpful, period accurate
                        in garb or in the lists are fencers. They often put we fighters to shame by
                        comparision.

                        But this should not become a fencers vs. Tuchux. Vs. fighters comparision.

                        Each group needs to do whatever is appropriate to fix problems in its area.
                        For fighters, we have the exposed plastic and sports gear problem that the
                        fencers don’t for the most part. In my opinion it is a problem anyway, so
                        I’m glad to see it being addressed. The cavalier fencers & out of period
                        17th-18th century Yarr pirates in the fencing lists are a separate problem.
                        The Tuchux whom I used to want tossed out as a group, I’m learning to
                        tolerate those that have stopped violating our rules; the rest can and
                        should go as far as I’m concerned, but the number of bunny fur barbarians
                        with fantasy armour and a bad attitude has gone down every year and I’d be
                        remiss in not noting the progress there.

                        It would be great if we could start finding solutions and continue working
                        with each other on all these different problems as individual problems to be
                        addressed, instead of using any one to justify another. “Oh, we have fencers
                        who are out of period and Tuchux who don’t follow any rules, so none of our
                        rules really need to be followed, people can do whatever they want, whenever
                        they want and let us give up on the SCA being what it claims to be. Medieval
                        appearance, an environment based on the activities of the landed nobility of
                        Europe & visitors to it, chivalric ideals and knightly/noble courtesy are so
                        yesterday, why bother with all that outdated nonsense. Let’s just have a
                        beer, put on some steampunk outfits, play some Enya and party. ”

                        I have to go to work, have fun everybody.

                        Richard Blackmoore

                        _____

                        From: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com [mailto:EKSouth@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of
                        apyrich@concentric. net
                        Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 1:47 AM
                        To: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com
                        Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards

                        > (Most of the fencing community is post 1600.)

                        In fact, "most" of the fencing community is not post 1600. I thought we had
                        put this myth to bed 15 years ago. Things that are recognizably fencing
                        can be documented well prior to 1600. While there are a couple of people
                        who will never be persuaded to give up their Cavalier (and bless their
                        hearts), what passes for fashion among Eastern fencers trends toward
                        generic Elizabethan or earlier. I'd wager than on any given day you'll find
                        more Vikings on the fencing field in the East than Cavaliers. Certainly that

                        was the case at King's and Queen's Fencing this year.

                        In other words, don't drag the fencers into this discussion please. We're
                        just going about our business peacefully over here while you all whip
                        yourselves up into unnecessary hysteria.

                        If the SEM's ruling bugs you, then complain to the people who can do
                        something about it: the Society Earl Marshal himself and the Board of
                        Directors. Here's the contact information for the ombudsman for the East
                        Kingdom:

                        Mark Faulcon (Duke Martin Lochner, KSCA)
                        Ombudsman for: Æthelmearc, East, Middle, Information Technology
                        Mr. Faulcon can be contacted at 407-826-1492 or via email at
                        mfaulcon@director. <mailto:mfaulcon% 40director. sca.org> sca.org.

                        Here's the contact information for the ombudsman in charge of marshal
                        activities:

                        Tom Noble (Dux Lucius Aurelius Valharic KSCA, OL,)
                        Ombudsman for: Caid, West, Arts & Sciences, Atenveldt, Artemisia,
                        Marshal
                        Mr. Noble can be contacted at 216-226-7038 or via email at
                        tnoble@director. <mailto:tnoble% 40director. sca.org> sca.org.

                        Cordially but wearily,
                        Mistress Alys Mackyntoich
                        (a Companion of the Golden Rapier and not at all post-1600)

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Joel Doner
                        Alys:   I think it s great that the Fencers did this themselves without the need for additional legislation from the SEM.    Do you have a problem with
                        Message 11 of 29 , May 2 6:26 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Alys:
                           
                          I think it's great that the Fencers did this themselves without the need for additional legislation from the SEM. 
                           
                          Do you have a problem with how SEM did this? 
                           
                          Lawrence

                          --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Joel Doner <jmdoner@...> wrote:


                          From: Joel Doner <jmdoner@...>
                          Subject: RE: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                          To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 9:14 AM


                           



                          My apologies for picking on the fencers. That was not my intent.
                           
                          Did the Fencers have to be legislated into the pre-17th century as done by the SEM  to the fighters, or was it done though positve encouragemen t? If was the latter, then shouldn't the fighters get the same?

                          --- On Sun, 5/2/10, James Peck <theregent1@verizon. net> wrote:

                          From: James Peck <theregent1@verizon. net>
                          Subject: RE: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                          To: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com
                          Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 6:46 AM

                           

                          Exactly.

                          Picking on the fencers as a group in many kingdoms that was consistently in
                          violation of the ‘attempt at pre-17th century appearance’ used to be 100%
                          justified. I was one of those criticizing them for a long time. But no one
                          should think that the willful violation went unnoticed, was accepted or
                          condoned.

                          Indeed that is one of the reasons the fencers were in many cased derided for
                          years as a community.

                          For the most part, the fencers have made a big change society wide and
                          especially here in the East. Those playing the game according to the rules
                          far exceed the number who ignore them.

                          So while it probably sounds funny coming from me, the majority of the
                          fencers do try to dress the part.

                          In fact on average, I have to admit that the majority of fencers society
                          wide often look more period correct in the lists than many heavy weapons
                          fighters do.

                          I still pick on the fencers who are out of period and will continue to do so
                          just like I pick on any Tuchux who wear fantasy garb/armour (many have
                          improved and look no different than the rest of us), but in the East the
                          problem fencers are generally the exception to the rule or we are talking
                          about their hand protection (I dislike some of the out of period hand
                          protection there just as much as I dislike some of the heavy weapons out of
                          period hand protection such as exposed hockey gloves, but that is really
                          more of a safety matter). Yes I’ll pick on their rubber band guns, I still
                          hate those. You should not get a peerage in my opinion if you spend any part
                          of your time in the lists shooting people with rubber bands at a distance
                          instead of defeating them up close and personal using your rapier, but of
                          course that is only my opinion.

                          In the East at least, some of the most dedicated, helpful, period accurate
                          in garb or in the lists are fencers. They often put we fighters to shame by
                          comparision.

                          But this should not become a fencers vs. Tuchux. Vs. fighters comparision.

                          Each group needs to do whatever is appropriate to fix problems in its area.
                          For fighters, we have the exposed plastic and sports gear problem that the
                          fencers don’t for the most part. In my opinion it is a problem anyway, so
                          I’m glad to see it being addressed. The cavalier fencers & out of period
                          17th-18th century Yarr pirates in the fencing lists are a separate problem.
                          The Tuchux whom I used to want tossed out as a group, I’m learning to
                          tolerate those that have stopped violating our rules; the rest can and
                          should go as far as I’m concerned, but the number of bunny fur barbarians
                          with fantasy armour and a bad attitude has gone down every year and I’d be
                          remiss in not noting the progress there.

                          It would be great if we could start finding solutions and continue working
                          with each other on all these different problems as individual problems to be
                          addressed, instead of using any one to justify another. “Oh, we have fencers
                          who are out of period and Tuchux who don’t follow any rules, so none of our
                          rules really need to be followed, people can do whatever they want, whenever
                          they want and let us give up on the SCA being what it claims to be. Medieval
                          appearance, an environment based on the activities of the landed nobility of
                          Europe & visitors to it, chivalric ideals and knightly/noble courtesy are so
                          yesterday, why bother with all that outdated nonsense. Let’s just have a
                          beer, put on some steampunk outfits, play some Enya and party. ”

                          I have to go to work, have fun everybody.

                          Richard Blackmoore

                          _____

                          From: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com [mailto:EKSouth@ yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of
                          apyrich@concentric. net
                          Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 1:47 AM
                          To: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com
                          Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards

                          > (Most of the fencing community is post 1600.)

                          In fact, "most" of the fencing community is not post 1600. I thought we had
                          put this myth to bed 15 years ago. Things that are recognizably fencing
                          can be documented well prior to 1600. While there are a couple of people
                          who will never be persuaded to give up their Cavalier (and bless their
                          hearts), what passes for fashion among Eastern fencers trends toward
                          generic Elizabethan or earlier. I'd wager than on any given day you'll find
                          more Vikings on the fencing field in the East than Cavaliers. Certainly that

                          was the case at King's and Queen's Fencing this year.

                          In other words, don't drag the fencers into this discussion please. We're
                          just going about our business peacefully over here while you all whip
                          yourselves up into unnecessary hysteria.

                          If the SEM's ruling bugs you, then complain to the people who can do
                          something about it: the Society Earl Marshal himself and the Board of
                          Directors. Here's the contact information for the ombudsman for the East
                          Kingdom:

                          Mark Faulcon (Duke Martin Lochner, KSCA)
                          Ombudsman for: Æthelmearc, East, Middle, Information Technology
                          Mr. Faulcon can be contacted at 407-826-1492 or via email at
                          mfaulcon@director. <mailto:mfaulcon% 40director. sca.org> sca.org.

                          Here's the contact information for the ombudsman in charge of marshal
                          activities:

                          Tom Noble (Dux Lucius Aurelius Valharic KSCA, OL,)
                          Ombudsman for: Caid, West, Arts & Sciences, Atenveldt, Artemisia,
                          Marshal
                          Mr. Noble can be contacted at 216-226-7038 or via email at
                          tnoble@director. <mailto:tnoble% 40director. sca.org> sca.org.

                          Cordially but wearily,
                          Mistress Alys Mackyntoich
                          (a Companion of the Golden Rapier and not at all post-1600)

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Joel Doner
                          Fairfax:   I am not mocking you when I say, I feel bad that after 15 years you have not seen what I am talking about. That you do not know the SCA I have
                          Message 12 of 29 , May 2 7:40 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Fairfax:
                             
                            I am not mocking you when I say, I feel bad that after 15 years you have not seen what I am talking about. That you do not know the SCA I have experienced over these many years.  We don't codify tradition and our values. We shouldn't have to because they are not laws. They are part of our culture. I cannot give you all of these ideas or do justice to these concepts in a few sentences or in this forum.  I will try to give an example.
                             
                            I was taught one of those unwritten truths is that Kingdoms were the heart and soul of the SCA. That each Kingdom is unique and should be allowed to express it's character in its own way. We as with other Kingdoms take pride in our culture. Eventhough Aethelmarc, Atlantia and Drachenwald all came from the East, each of them was allowed to create their own traditions, customs and policies rergardless of how we or the others Kingdoms felt.  When each of these Kingdoms were created, there was never an idea that they would have to keep any of the Eastern traditions they had when they were part of our Kingdom. 
                             
                            I probably did not do justice to this idea, but I hope you get the general gist.
                             
                            Lawrence
                             
                             
                             


                            --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Bob Davis <bob@...> wrote:


                            From: Bob Davis <bob@...>
                            Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                            To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 7:22 AM


                             



                            Bob Davis wrote:

                            >>I agree that it is no longer 1968, 1998 or even 2008. But, that does
                            >>not mean we give up the ideas that are at the heart of our Society
                            >>and Kingdom. Some truths, even unwritten truths transcend time.
                            >>Perhaps that is why were are anachronists to begin with and try to
                            >>preserve the best ideas from times long ago. I don't think my
                            >>understanding or definition of what our society should be are no
                            >>longer applicable as you suggested.
                            >
                            >
                            > What ideas are these, then? Perhaps I'm too new (I've only been in the
                            > East for 12 years, and in the SCA for 15), but I can't seem to find them.

                            I forgot to expand upon this before clicking "Send".

                            I'm seriously asking. It seems that every time a discussion comes up
                            that involves increasing accountability for material culture someone
                            pipes up with this argument.

                            And yet I've never seen a codified answer. I've never even seen two
                            people - who are arguing on the same side - coincide with what they
                            consider those "truths" and "ideas" to be.

                            Somebody help me out, here. What exactly are these truths? Why aren't
                            they codified, or at least more readily available?

                            Sincerely,

                            Fairfax










                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • James Peck
                            It was done through both. We had to keep using the SCA’s pre-17th century rule because many simply refused to listen without being presented with proof in
                            Message 13 of 29 , May 2 3:08 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              It was done through both. We had to keep using the SCA’s pre-17th century
                              rule because many simply refused to listen without being presented with
                              proof in writing/online. Even then many simply ignored the rule, hence the
                              irritation with fencers who simply decided the rules did not apply to them.



                              Consistent & constant pressure as well as positive encouragement were
                              applied. The fact that insisting on being out of period on purpose caused
                              many to miss out on awards and recognition (never reward people who are
                              purposely breaking rules, it sets a bad precedent) made a difference with
                              some. In some cases we had to resort to being brutally frank and explaining
                              why we did not agree with what they were doing. Without the rule, we would
                              have lost that fight however as there where many fencers who were determined
                              to be 17th or 18th century. Legislation was key.



                              Of course this varied by area, even within kingdoms.



                              There was a time when some tried to stretch the period to 1650 but it did
                              not become official policy. I think that may have popped up in the old &
                              generally very useful Queen Carol’s Guide, but I might be remembering wrong,
                              that was a very long time ago.



                              Richard Blackmoore

                              _____

                              From: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com [mailto:EKSouth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              Joel Doner
                              Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 9:15 AM
                              To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards





                              My apologies for picking on the fencers. That was not my intent.

                              Did the Fencers have to be legislated into the pre-17th century as done by
                              the SEM to the fighters, or was it done though positve encouragement? If
                              was the latter, then shouldn't the fighters get the same?

                              --- On Sun, 5/2/10, James Peck <theregent1@verizon.
                              <mailto:theregent1%40verizon.net> net> wrote:

                              From: James Peck <theregent1@verizon. <mailto:theregent1%40verizon.net> net>
                              Subject: RE: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                              To: EKSouth@yahoogroups <mailto:EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                              Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 6:46 AM



                              Exactly.

                              Picking on the fencers as a group in many kingdoms that was consistently in
                              violation of the ‘attempt at pre-17th century appearance’ used to be 100%
                              justified. I was one of those criticizing them for a long time. But no one
                              should think that the willful violation went unnoticed, was accepted or
                              condoned.

                              Indeed that is one of the reasons the fencers were in many cased derided for
                              years as a community.

                              For the most part, the fencers have made a big change society wide and
                              especially here in the East. Those playing the game according to the rules
                              far exceed the number who ignore them.

                              So while it probably sounds funny coming from me, the majority of the
                              fencers do try to dress the part.

                              In fact on average, I have to admit that the majority of fencers society
                              wide often look more period correct in the lists than many heavy weapons
                              fighters do.

                              I still pick on the fencers who are out of period and will continue to do so
                              just like I pick on any Tuchux who wear fantasy garb/armour (many have
                              improved and look no different than the rest of us), but in the East the
                              problem fencers are generally the exception to the rule or we are talking
                              about their hand protection (I dislike some of the out of period hand
                              protection there just as much as I dislike some of the heavy weapons out of
                              period hand protection such as exposed hockey gloves, but that is really
                              more of a safety matter). Yes I’ll pick on their rubber band guns, I still
                              hate those. You should not get a peerage in my opinion if you spend any part
                              of your time in the lists shooting people with rubber bands at a distance
                              instead of defeating them up close and personal using your rapier, but of
                              course that is only my opinion.

                              In the East at least, some of the most dedicated, helpful, period accurate
                              in garb or in the lists are fencers. They often put we fighters to shame by
                              comparision.

                              But this should not become a fencers vs. Tuchux. Vs. fighters comparision.

                              Each group needs to do whatever is appropriate to fix problems in its area.
                              For fighters, we have the exposed plastic and sports gear problem that the
                              fencers don’t for the most part. In my opinion it is a problem anyway, so
                              I’m glad to see it being addressed. The cavalier fencers & out of period
                              17th-18th century Yarr pirates in the fencing lists are a separate problem.
                              The Tuchux whom I used to want tossed out as a group, I’m learning to
                              tolerate those that have stopped violating our rules; the rest can and
                              should go as far as I’m concerned, but the number of bunny fur barbarians
                              with fantasy armour and a bad attitude has gone down every year and I’d be
                              remiss in not noting the progress there.

                              It would be great if we could start finding solutions and continue working
                              with each other on all these different problems as individual problems to be
                              addressed, instead of using any one to justify another. “Oh, we have fencers
                              who are out of period and Tuchux who don’t follow any rules, so none of our
                              rules really need to be followed, people can do whatever they want, whenever
                              they want and let us give up on the SCA being what it claims to be. Medieval
                              appearance, an environment based on the activities of the landed nobility of
                              Europe & visitors to it, chivalric ideals and knightly/noble courtesy are so
                              yesterday, why bother with all that outdated nonsense. Let’s just have a
                              beer, put on some steampunk outfits, play some Enya and party. ”

                              I have to go to work, have fun everybody.

                              Richard Blackmoore

                              _____

                              From: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com [mailto:EKSouth@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf
                              Of
                              apyrich@concentric. net
                              Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 1:47 AM
                              To: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com
                              Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards

                              > (Most of the fencing community is post 1600.)

                              In fact, "most" of the fencing community is not post 1600. I thought we had
                              put this myth to bed 15 years ago. Things that are recognizably fencing
                              can be documented well prior to 1600. While there are a couple of people
                              who will never be persuaded to give up their Cavalier (and bless their
                              hearts), what passes for fashion among Eastern fencers trends toward
                              generic Elizabethan or earlier. I'd wager than on any given day you'll find
                              more Vikings on the fencing field in the East than Cavaliers. Certainly that

                              was the case at King's and Queen's Fencing this year.

                              In other words, don't drag the fencers into this discussion please. We're
                              just going about our business peacefully over here while you all whip
                              yourselves up into unnecessary hysteria.

                              If the SEM's ruling bugs you, then complain to the people who can do
                              something about it: the Society Earl Marshal himself and the Board of
                              Directors. Here's the contact information for the ombudsman for the East
                              Kingdom:

                              Mark Faulcon (Duke Martin Lochner, KSCA)
                              Ombudsman for: Æthelmearc, East, Middle, Information Technology
                              Mr. Faulcon can be contacted at 407-826-1492 or via email at
                              mfaulcon@director. <mailto:mfaulcon% 40director. sca.org> sca.org.

                              Here's the contact information for the ombudsman in charge of marshal
                              activities:

                              Tom Noble (Dux Lucius Aurelius Valharic KSCA, OL,)
                              Ombudsman for: Caid, West, Arts & Sciences, Atenveldt, Artemisia,
                              Marshal
                              Mr. Noble can be contacted at 216-226-7038 or via email at
                              tnoble@director. <mailto:tnoble% 40director. sca.org> sca.org.

                              Cordially but wearily,
                              Mistress Alys Mackyntoich
                              (a Companion of the Golden Rapier and not at all post-1600)

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • James Peck
                              If the fencers were out there in blue barrel plastic, clarification might have been needed. In the fencers case it was getting them to understand 17th and 18th
                              Message 14 of 29 , May 2 3:10 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                If the fencers were out there in blue barrel plastic, clarification might
                                have been needed. In the fencers case it was getting them to understand 17th
                                and 18th century garb & weapons were in violation of the pre-17th century
                                appearance clause.



                                Richard



                                _____

                                From: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com [mailto:EKSouth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                Joel Doner
                                Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 9:27 AM
                                To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards





                                Alys:

                                I think it's great that the Fencers did this themselves without the need for
                                additional legislation from the SEM.

                                Do you have a problem with how SEM did this?

                                Lawrence

                                --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Joel Doner <jmdoner@yahoo. <mailto:jmdoner%40yahoo.com>
                                com> wrote:

                                From: Joel Doner <jmdoner@yahoo. <mailto:jmdoner%40yahoo.com> com>
                                Subject: RE: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                To: EKSouth@yahoogroups <mailto:EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                                Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 9:14 AM



                                My apologies for picking on the fencers. That was not my intent.

                                Did the Fencers have to be legislated into the pre-17th century as done by
                                the SEM to the fighters, or was it done though positve encouragemen t? If
                                was the latter, then shouldn't the fighters get the same?

                                --- On Sun, 5/2/10, James Peck <theregent1@verizon. net> wrote:

                                From: James Peck <theregent1@verizon. net>
                                Subject: RE: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                To: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com
                                Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 6:46 AM



                                Exactly.

                                Picking on the fencers as a group in many kingdoms that was consistently in
                                violation of the ‘attempt at pre-17th century appearance’ used to be 100%
                                justified. I was one of those criticizing them for a long time. But no one
                                should think that the willful violation went unnoticed, was accepted or
                                condoned.

                                Indeed that is one of the reasons the fencers were in many cased derided for
                                years as a community.

                                For the most part, the fencers have made a big change society wide and
                                especially here in the East. Those playing the game according to the rules
                                far exceed the number who ignore them.

                                So while it probably sounds funny coming from me, the majority of the
                                fencers do try to dress the part.

                                In fact on average, I have to admit that the majority of fencers society
                                wide often look more period correct in the lists than many heavy weapons
                                fighters do.

                                I still pick on the fencers who are out of period and will continue to do so
                                just like I pick on any Tuchux who wear fantasy garb/armour (many have
                                improved and look no different than the rest of us), but in the East the
                                problem fencers are generally the exception to the rule or we are talking
                                about their hand protection (I dislike some of the out of period hand
                                protection there just as much as I dislike some of the heavy weapons out of
                                period hand protection such as exposed hockey gloves, but that is really
                                more of a safety matter). Yes I’ll pick on their rubber band guns, I still
                                hate those. You should not get a peerage in my opinion if you spend any part
                                of your time in the lists shooting people with rubber bands at a distance
                                instead of defeating them up close and personal using your rapier, but of
                                course that is only my opinion.

                                In the East at least, some of the most dedicated, helpful, period accurate
                                in garb or in the lists are fencers. They often put we fighters to shame by
                                comparision.

                                But this should not become a fencers vs. Tuchux. Vs. fighters comparision.

                                Each group needs to do whatever is appropriate to fix problems in its area.
                                For fighters, we have the exposed plastic and sports gear problem that the
                                fencers don’t for the most part. In my opinion it is a problem anyway, so
                                I’m glad to see it being addressed. The cavalier fencers & out of period
                                17th-18th century Yarr pirates in the fencing lists are a separate problem.
                                The Tuchux whom I used to want tossed out as a group, I’m learning to
                                tolerate those that have stopped violating our rules; the rest can and
                                should go as far as I’m concerned, but the number of bunny fur barbarians
                                with fantasy armour and a bad attitude has gone down every year and I’d be
                                remiss in not noting the progress there.

                                It would be great if we could start finding solutions and continue working
                                with each other on all these different problems as individual problems to be
                                addressed, instead of using any one to justify another. “Oh, we have fencers
                                who are out of period and Tuchux who don’t follow any rules, so none of our
                                rules really need to be followed, people can do whatever they want, whenever
                                they want and let us give up on the SCA being what it claims to be. Medieval
                                appearance, an environment based on the activities of the landed nobility of
                                Europe & visitors to it, chivalric ideals and knightly/noble courtesy are so
                                yesterday, why bother with all that outdated nonsense. Let’s just have a
                                beer, put on some steampunk outfits, play some Enya and party. ”

                                I have to go to work, have fun everybody.

                                Richard Blackmoore

                                _____

                                From: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com [mailto:EKSouth@ yahoogroups .com] On Behalf
                                Of
                                apyrich@concentric. net
                                Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 1:47 AM
                                To: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com
                                Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards

                                > (Most of the fencing community is post 1600.)

                                In fact, "most" of the fencing community is not post 1600. I thought we had
                                put this myth to bed 15 years ago. Things that are recognizably fencing
                                can be documented well prior to 1600. While there are a couple of people
                                who will never be persuaded to give up their Cavalier (and bless their
                                hearts), what passes for fashion among Eastern fencers trends toward
                                generic Elizabethan or earlier. I'd wager than on any given day you'll find
                                more Vikings on the fencing field in the East than Cavaliers. Certainly that

                                was the case at King's and Queen's Fencing this year.

                                In other words, don't drag the fencers into this discussion please. We're
                                just going about our business peacefully over here while you all whip
                                yourselves up into unnecessary hysteria.

                                If the SEM's ruling bugs you, then complain to the people who can do
                                something about it: the Society Earl Marshal himself and the Board of
                                Directors. Here's the contact information for the ombudsman for the East
                                Kingdom:

                                Mark Faulcon (Duke Martin Lochner, KSCA)
                                Ombudsman for: Æthelmearc, East, Middle, Information Technology
                                Mr. Faulcon can be contacted at 407-826-1492 or via email at
                                mfaulcon@director. <mailto:mfaulcon% 40director. sca.org> sca.org.

                                Here's the contact information for the ombudsman in charge of marshal
                                activities:

                                Tom Noble (Dux Lucius Aurelius Valharic KSCA, OL,)
                                Ombudsman for: Caid, West, Arts & Sciences, Atenveldt, Artemisia,
                                Marshal
                                Mr. Noble can be contacted at 216-226-7038 or via email at
                                tnoble@director. <mailto:tnoble% 40director. sca.org> sca.org.

                                Cordially but wearily,
                                Mistress Alys Mackyntoich
                                (a Companion of the Golden Rapier and not at all post-1600)

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • apyrich@concentric.net
                                ... I didn t think you were picking on us. I know what that looks like, and it looks different. ;-) I thought you were dragging us into an argument that we
                                Message 15 of 29 , May 2 3:21 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  On 2 May 2010 at 6:14, Joel Doner wrote:

                                  > My apologies for picking on the fencers. That was not my intent.

                                  I didn't think you were picking on us. I know what that looks like, and it looks different. ;-)

                                  I thought you were dragging us into an argument that we didn't belong in, and being
                                  factually inaccurate, which are not the same thing as picking on us.

                                   
                                  > Did the Fencers have to be legislated into the pre-17th century as done
                                  > by the SEM  to the fighters, or was it done though
                                  > positve encouragement? If was the latter, then shouldn't the fighters get
                                  > the same?

                                  Well, does policing ourselves so that people would stop treating fencers badly and saying
                                  that we don't belong in the SCA (or, in the case of one memorable person, saying that
                                  fencing is "destroying the soul of the SCA") count as "positive encouragement"? We, as a
                                  community, got sick of being treated badly and over the last 15 years or so, we've used
                                  social pressure and outright mockery to move people away from bad pirate garb and bad
                                  post-period garb. Changing how Joe Generic Fencer looks on the field was something
                                  active we could do to change perceptions.

                                  TANGENT: Whether the proper cut-off date is 1600 or 1650 remains a hotly debated topic
                                  for another day, but there's a big difference between someone doing good 1620s garb vs. a
                                  Disney pirate or Louis XIV. (Yeah, many many many moons ago there was a guy who
                                  consistently wore 1700s stuff on the fencing field).

                                  An argument can be made that the same sort of social pressure should be applied to the
                                  rattan community. BUT rattan fighters as a community don't get treated badly. There's no
                                  incentive for them to change their behavior as a group. Individuals will spiff up their kits
                                  when they want to get noticed in a positive way. But there's no social carrot to hang over
                                  the head of Joe Generic Fighter until the day he starts having dreams of a red or white belt.
                                  "You're making us all look bad so clean up your act" doesn't have the same sting when
                                  "making us all look bad" carries no material consequences.

                                  Whether I have a problem with the SEM's methods isn't important. I don't know enough
                                  about his communications with the Kingdom Marshals or Crowns to say whether the SEM
                                  showed poor management skills or not. It appears from the outside that, at the very least,
                                  he didn't understand his audience as well as he thought he did.

                                  We can keeping arguing about this on the Internet or, we can use that same time and
                                  energy to figure out how to work with and implement this rule that we're stuck with (for now)
                                  in ways that cause the least amount arbitrary harm. Be part of the solution. Don't be part
                                  of the delete file in my mailbox.

                                  Alys
                                • James Peck
                                  The same sort of pressure could have been used on fighters and sometimes is. Had it been applied consistently, it is unlikely the SEM would have decided steps
                                  Message 16 of 29 , May 2 3:32 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    The same sort of pressure could have been used on fighters and sometimes is.
                                    Had it been applied consistently, it is unlikely the SEM would have decided
                                    steps were needed to get compliance with the pre-17th century appearance
                                    clause.



                                    As far as mockery, ask the fighters. I've resorted to it plenty of times
                                    when nothing else has worked. After all, I wrote the original SCA Thing (to
                                    the tune of wild thing) around 1987 or so, partly to effect social change by
                                    making people who wore welcome mats (that still said 'welcome') as armour &
                                    other abominations, realize how idiotic that looked, even if it was amusing.
                                    I only stopped singing it when Earl Shannon threatened me with bodily harm.
                                    At the time not singing, at least not in front of Shannon, seemed the
                                    smarter choice :-)



                                    Richard Blackmoore



                                    _____

                                    From: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com [mailto:EKSouth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                    apyrich@...
                                    Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 6:22 PM
                                    To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards





                                    On 2 May 2010 at 6:14, Joel Doner wrote:

                                    > My apologies for picking on the fencers. That was not my intent.

                                    I didn't think you were picking on us. I know what that looks like, and it
                                    looks different. ;-)

                                    I thought you were dragging us into an argument that we didn't belong in,
                                    and being
                                    factually inaccurate, which are not the same thing as picking on us.


                                    > Did the Fencers have to be legislated into the pre-17th century as done
                                    > by the SEM to the fighters, or was it done though
                                    > positve encouragement? If was the latter, then shouldn't the fighters get
                                    > the same?

                                    Well, does policing ourselves so that people would stop treating fencers
                                    badly and saying
                                    that we don't belong in the SCA (or, in the case of one memorable person,
                                    saying that
                                    fencing is "destroying the soul of the SCA") count as "positive
                                    encouragement"? We, as a
                                    community, got sick of being treated badly and over the last 15 years or so,
                                    we've used
                                    social pressure and outright mockery to move people away from bad pirate
                                    garb and bad
                                    post-period garb. Changing how Joe Generic Fencer looks on the field was
                                    something
                                    active we could do to change perceptions.

                                    TANGENT: Whether the proper cut-off date is 1600 or 1650 remains a hotly
                                    debated topic
                                    for another day, but there's a big difference between someone doing good
                                    1620s garb vs. a
                                    Disney pirate or Louis XIV. (Yeah, many many many moons ago there was a guy
                                    who
                                    consistently wore 1700s stuff on the fencing field).

                                    An argument can be made that the same sort of social pressure should be
                                    applied to the
                                    rattan community. BUT rattan fighters as a community don't get treated
                                    badly. There's no
                                    incentive for them to change their behavior as a group. Individuals will
                                    spiff up their kits
                                    when they want to get noticed in a positive way. But there's no social
                                    carrot to hang over
                                    the head of Joe Generic Fighter until the day he starts having dreams of a
                                    red or white belt.
                                    "You're making us all look bad so clean up your act" doesn't have the same
                                    sting when
                                    "making us all look bad" carries no material consequences.

                                    Whether I have a problem with the SEM's methods isn't important. I don't
                                    know enough
                                    about his communications with the Kingdom Marshals or Crowns to say whether
                                    the SEM
                                    showed poor management skills or not. It appears from the outside that, at
                                    the very least,
                                    he didn't understand his audience as well as he thought he did.

                                    We can keeping arguing about this on the Internet or, we can use that same
                                    time and
                                    energy to figure out how to work with and implement this rule that we're
                                    stuck with (for now)
                                    in ways that cause the least amount arbitrary harm. Be part of the solution.
                                    Don't be part
                                    of the delete file in my mailbox.

                                    Alys





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Taranach McLeod
                                    It is an egregious error to criticize or fault people for not automatically knowing what is not written, what is not communicated and what can apparently not
                                    Message 17 of 29 , May 3 12:30 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      It is an egregious error to criticize or fault people for not automatically
                                      "knowing" what is not written, what is not communicated and what can
                                      apparently not be explained.
                                      If these "Values" and "Traditions" cannot be effectively passed along then
                                      they cannot be used as an unassailable bludgeon in the defense of someones
                                      point of argument. The very act of having to say "Everyone should just know
                                      that" is a more than adequate indictment that such traditions are NOT as
                                      widespread and well known as may be supposed. It also lends itself to the
                                      observation that the person may no longer have a truly valid argument to
                                      support his cause and is resorting to a phrase that has no real meaning for
                                      justification.

                                      Taranach
                                      "Melior morior in nostrum pedis quam inservio in nostrum genua."
                                      "Tradition without intelligence is not worth having" T.S. Elliot



                                      On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Joel Doner <jmdoner@...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Fairfax:
                                      >
                                      > I am not mocking you when I say, I feel bad that after 15 years you have
                                      > not seen what I am talking about. That you do not know the SCA I have
                                      > experienced over these many years. We don't codify tradition and our
                                      > values. We shouldn't have to because they are not laws. They are part of our
                                      > culture. I cannot give you all of these ideas or do justice to these
                                      > concepts in a few sentences or in this forum. I will try to give an
                                      > example.
                                      >
                                      > I was taught one of those unwritten truths is that Kingdoms were the heart
                                      > and soul of the SCA. That each Kingdom is unique and should be allowed to
                                      > express it's character in its own way. We as with other Kingdoms take pride
                                      > in our culture. Eventhough Aethelmarc, Atlantia and Drachenwald all came
                                      > from the East, each of them was allowed to create their own traditions,
                                      > customs and policies rergardless of how we or the others Kingdoms felt.
                                      > When each of these Kingdoms were created, there was never an idea that they
                                      > would have to keep any of the Eastern traditions they had when they were
                                      > part of our Kingdom.
                                      >
                                      > I probably did not do justice to this idea, but I hope you get the general
                                      > gist.
                                      >
                                      > Lawrence
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Bob Davis <bob@...<bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>>
                                      > wrote:
                                      >
                                      > From: Bob Davis <bob@...<bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                      > To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com <EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 7:22 AM
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Bob Davis wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >>I agree that it is no longer 1968, 1998 or even 2008. But, that does
                                      > >>not mean we give up the ideas that are at the heart of our Society
                                      > >>and Kingdom. Some truths, even unwritten truths transcend time.
                                      > >>Perhaps that is why were are anachronists to begin with and try to
                                      > >>preserve the best ideas from times long ago. I don't think my
                                      > >>understanding or definition of what our society should be are no
                                      > >>longer applicable as you suggested.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > What ideas are these, then? Perhaps I'm too new (I've only been in the
                                      > > East for 12 years, and in the SCA for 15), but I can't seem to find them.
                                      >
                                      > I forgot to expand upon this before clicking "Send".
                                      >
                                      > I'm seriously asking. It seems that every time a discussion comes up
                                      > that involves increasing accountability for material culture someone
                                      > pipes up with this argument.
                                      >
                                      > And yet I've never seen a codified answer. I've never even seen two
                                      > people - who are arguing on the same side - coincide with what they
                                      > consider those "truths" and "ideas" to be.
                                      >
                                      > Somebody help me out, here. What exactly are these truths? Why aren't
                                      > they codified, or at least more readily available?
                                      >
                                      > Sincerely,
                                      >
                                      > Fairfax
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • James Peck
                                      Lawrence, If day glo orange or exposed blue barrel plastic safety equipment with caustic chemical warnings on it that some refer to as armour , is part of our
                                      Message 18 of 29 , May 3 4:40 AM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Lawrence,

                                        If day glo orange or exposed blue barrel plastic safety equipment with
                                        caustic chemical warnings on it that some refer to as 'armour', is part of
                                        our kingdom's culture, that is a part I do not take pride in.

                                        Our longstanding tolerance of these folks blithely ignoring what to many is
                                        one of our cornerstone principles, that in the East & in the SCA to
                                        participate you must make an attempt at pre-17th appearance, may indeed have
                                        given some the impression that smurf warriors are indeed part of our culture
                                        & character, our policies, traditions and customs.

                                        I think it is simply that in the East, our extreme tolerance for rules
                                        breakers and general avoidance of conflict while trying to be courteous to a
                                        fault (not a bad thing), has simply created an environment where we don't
                                        exercise our basic right to enforce our own rules for participation.

                                        We are very inclusive, which is good. But when we become inclusive to the
                                        point and tolerant of rules breaking to such a degree, that rules breakers
                                        (both those who don't know better and those who do it on purpose to be
                                        annoying as well as those that are just lazy) are confused with mainstream
                                        folks, we have a problem. And expense is not a issue as has been shown.
                                        People spend more on rattan and duct tape in one or two practices sometimes
                                        than they would have to spend on a solution.

                                        Ad as far as the other kingdoms, we are often laughed at because of the
                                        non-medieval crap that we put on the field.

                                        I fully agree with you that I am usually quite proud of the East. We often
                                        lead the society in general in terms of fighting ability, quantity & quality
                                        of our artisans, our service people are second to none. We are a diverse,
                                        intelligent, giving and special group that accomplishes quite a bit.

                                        At the same time the 'People's Grand Republic of The East' label rears its
                                        ugly head (Darius hates that so I'll apologize in advance but I've heard it
                                        at least a dozen times this week as an excuse for not liking this rule or
                                        having to dress right like adults). One of our strengths is that many
                                        Easterners are vocal about how they want the kingdom to go, then they act on
                                        that and support worthy causes. But they can't or won't be told, asked or
                                        led to do something, we need first a grass roots magical mandate of the
                                        masses before support is there. Heaven forbid a king or society officer try
                                        to make a change beyond a whim that chocolate or the princess bride is
                                        temporarily period (and even those set people off for weeks :) much less try
                                        to improve the appearance of the fighters to be in compliance with what the
                                        majority of people believe to be the law anyway.

                                        The negative is often we have this knee jerk reaction where we violently
                                        object to any change whatsoever, regardless of who proposes it or how worthy
                                        it is. A very New York/New England "Don't tread on me" version that
                                        translates to "Dude. Don't tell me what to do or we'll have angry villagers
                                        with torches and pitchforks at your door. Sending ninjas".

                                        As Lucan, Darius and others have noted, overall many have brought their
                                        appearance up in recent years especially, notably within households.

                                        Which has made things better in many ways, but it has also made the extreme
                                        examples at the other end more noticeable.

                                        Take a trip down to Atlantia or Calontir. Many of us fit right in where
                                        appearance rules are higher. Then listen to the comments when Easterners in
                                        sports gear or exposed plastic show up.

                                        I'd rather the East be the leader and the best that it so often is. I'll
                                        have to settle for this minor change that at least hides some but not all of
                                        the stuff, so we at least won't look like the kingdom with homeless people
                                        fighting. Our culture is usually one of help and excellence, not one of 'Oh
                                        look, here comes those guys wearing hockey equipment and cleaning barrels
                                        instead of armour' 'Why don't they follow the rules?' 'Don't they know they
                                        are supposed to look like somebody from before the 17th century?' 'Does that
                                        blue breastplate really say This Side Up - Concentrated Liquid Soap'?

                                        The funniest part about all this is the vocal support of many the
                                        non-fighters to clean up the list appearance to at least a logical minimum
                                        where we look like pre-17th century combatants. All around them, they see
                                        even beginners producing decent first efforts using period appropriate
                                        styles and materials for projects of art, everyday life objects, pavilions,
                                        food, games, clothing with a bit of help, all the way up to laurel level
                                        work worthy in some cases of museums.

                                        Then they look at the lists and see a guy in all blue barrel plastic, an
                                        offensive bumper sticker "If the pavilions rocking, don't bother knocking"
                                        or "I brake for hookers", a neon pink glowing helm, dayglo cleats and hockey
                                        gloves with the text and logos not covered. And they can't understand what
                                        drugs the fighters are on to think that constitutes an attempt. The fighters
                                        have a much lower standard for appearance than the fencing, archery,
                                        equestrian or arts & sciences community does.

                                        Take a picture of Eastern fighters shins, feet and hands. Then take a
                                        picture of the body and head. Make a card deck and try to match the shins,
                                        feet and hands to the main torso/head/arms shot. It often can't be done. But
                                        we are not even looking for that level of logical appearance. We are
                                        waivering all that.

                                        All we are asking is cover up the blatantly modern exposed plastic & sports
                                        gear. It just isn't that hard. It will make this a better place where the
                                        non-fighters won't be laughing at the fighters who can't be bothered to
                                        follow the same rules that everybody else does.

                                        Sigh...

                                        Richard Blackmoore


                                        On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Joel Doner <jmdoner@...> wrote:

                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Fairfax:
                                        >
                                        > I am not mocking you when I say, I feel bad that after 15 years you have
                                        > not seen what I am talking about. That you do not know the SCA I have
                                        > experienced over these many years. We don't codify tradition and our
                                        > values. We shouldn't have to because they are not laws. They are part of
                                        our
                                        > culture. I cannot give you all of these ideas or do justice to these
                                        > concepts in a few sentences or in this forum. I will try to give an
                                        > example.
                                        >
                                        > I was taught one of those unwritten truths is that Kingdoms were the heart
                                        > and soul of the SCA. That each Kingdom is unique and should be allowed to
                                        > express it's character in its own way. We as with other Kingdoms take
                                        pride
                                        > in our culture. Eventhough Aethelmarc, Atlantia and Drachenwald all came
                                        > from the East, each of them was allowed to create their own traditions,
                                        > customs and policies rergardless of how we or the others Kingdoms felt.
                                        > When each of these Kingdoms were created, there was never an idea that
                                        they
                                        > would have to keep any of the Eastern traditions they had when they were
                                        > part of our Kingdom.
                                        >
                                        > I probably did not do justice to this idea, but I hope you get the general
                                        > gist.
                                        >
                                        > Lawrence
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Bob Davis
                                        <bob@...<bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>>
                                        > wrote:
                                        >
                                        > From: Bob Davis
                                        <bob@...<bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                        > To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com <EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 7:22 AM
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Bob Davis wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >>I agree that it is no longer 1968, 1998 or even 2008. But, that does
                                        > >>not mean we give up the ideas that are at the heart of our Society
                                        > >>and Kingdom. Some truths, even unwritten truths transcend time.
                                        > >>Perhaps that is why were are anachronists to begin with and try to
                                        > >>preserve the best ideas from times long ago. I don't think my
                                        > >>understanding or definition of what our society should be are no
                                        > >>longer applicable as you suggested.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > What ideas are these, then? Perhaps I'm too new (I've only been in the
                                        > > East for 12 years, and in the SCA for 15), but I can't seem to find
                                        them.
                                        >
                                        > I forgot to expand upon this before clicking "Send".
                                        >
                                        > I'm seriously asking. It seems that every time a discussion comes up
                                        > that involves increasing accountability for material culture someone
                                        > pipes up with this argument.
                                        >
                                        > And yet I've never seen a codified answer. I've never even seen two
                                        > people - who are arguing on the same side - coincide with what they
                                        > consider those "truths" and "ideas" to be.
                                        >
                                        > Somebody help me out, here. What exactly are these truths? Why aren't
                                        > they codified, or at least more readily available?
                                        >
                                        > Sincerely,
                                        >
                                        > Fairfax
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                        ------------------------------------

                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      • Jennifer Heise
                                        ... The East being what it is, I find it simpler and safer to confine my opinions to the general. That being, is it improper for the SEM to make such a policy?
                                        Message 19 of 29 , May 3 6:37 AM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          > First, you like all citizen's of the East absolutely have the right to
                                          > comment on martial activities in the East. As you pointed out it does
                                          > impact those attending the event in addition to those fighting.
                                          >
                                          The East being what it is, I find it simpler and safer to confine my
                                          opinions to the general. That being, is it improper for the SEM to make such
                                          a policy?

                                          > Also, do you believe that the ends justify the means? The reason I ask is
                                          > that you don't seem to have a problem that the Marshal's Office is able to
                                          > create a dress code that has nothing to do with safety in the lists.
                                          >
                                          Again, it seems to me that the martial sports community has made its own
                                          standards in the past in terms of appropriate dress in the field. That being
                                          so, for the technical head of the martial sports community to interpret the
                                          rules of the list along with the reasonable attempt standard for the
                                          maritial sports community does not make me disturbed as such.

                                          Do I approve of the new rules? I make a point of not caring about such
                                          things. I simply don't dispute that the the SEM has the right to hand down a
                                          policy. Is the policy restrictive? I don't know, not being a fighter.

                                          > Will you be as comfortable with a ruling from a Society Officer about dress
                                          > codes for Court, in order to receive a scroll, or to receive an award in
                                          > order to make Court more aesthetically pleasing as some want in the lists?
                                          >
                                          I don't know, not being involved in many activities that have society-level
                                          supervision. Should, say, the Minister of Arts & Sciences or Laurel Queen of
                                          arms make a ruling involving minimal proper appearance for teaching or for
                                          heralding court, I would hope my commentary would be on the practicality of
                                          the rules/policy rather than whether they should be allowed to be made.

                                          > Whether you support or oppose this policy, shouldn't a decision like this
                                          > have been made by the Royalty in curia instead of the SEM?
                                          >
                                          Respected Master Lawrence, unlike you, I don't feel that the Royalty (and
                                          their curial advisory) are inherently more worthy to hand down policy than
                                          the Society Officer for the area of activity concerned. This may have
                                          something to do with hanging around with the wrong sort of out-Kingdom
                                          heralds, or it may simply have to do with my Polish heritage, where Royalist
                                          means something rather different than it does here in the East. It seems to
                                          me that the Royalty are just as likely to make a decision (with or without
                                          objection from the Curia, since the Curia is after all an ADVISORY body as I
                                          understand it) that is ill-considered and perhaps incompatible with the
                                          culture of the East as a Society Officer is to do so.

                                          Respectfully,
                                          -- Metressa Jadwiga

                                          --
                                          Jennifer Heise

                                          known in the SCA as Jadwiga Zajaczkowa


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Joel Doner
                                          Taranach:   If I have slighted you by what I have said about knowing Eastern traditions, I apologize. If the Peers and older members of our Kingdom have
                                          Message 20 of 29 , May 3 11:41 AM
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Taranach:
                                             
                                            If I have slighted you by what I have said about knowing Eastern traditions, I apologize. If the Peers and older members of our Kingdom have not been communicating these traditions and cultural values, then we have failed, not you.
                                             
                                            Many of the traditions and values that are passed down in the SCA are through the many Teacher/Student relationships, ie Knight/Squire, Laurel/Apprentice, Don/Cadet, etc. Much of what I have learned was from my former Knight, my Pelican and thier peers.
                                             
                                            Some of what I learned was from standing in the back of the common tent, watching and listening to those who were here before me. Sometimes, someone would flat out tell me I made a fau paux and told me according to tradition what I should have been doing, or not been doing. I learn things all the time from others simply by talking to people who have been here longer or know more than me.  And there are plenty of people who do.  There are many things we learn in life that are not written, but they are still important. Sometimes we learn them by playing in the sandbox with others.
                                             
                                            When I say I could not give justice to them in this forum, I ment that. It took me years of living in the East to learn them and I am still learning. Here are some examples of Eastern traditions and cultural values that are not in writing;  the highest ranking peer at a feast gets the honor of toasting the K&Q, then we go down the line to the next highest ranking peer for the toast to P&P, Cooks, etc. It is tradition for a peer to serve High Table whenever possible. Unlike some of the Western Kingdoms we do not bow infront of empty throwns of the Royalty.  None of this is in writing, but these things are important to the identity of the East Kingdom. 
                                             
                                            As for the validity of my arguments in this case, whether you agree with them or not, I think I have made my points clear including those on Eastern tradition. I disagree that all of these things need to be written to have weight in the discussion.  And just because no one took the time to tell you what they were, doesen't lessen their importance in this discussion, or make them unworthy of consideration.  The point is that tradition and values are more then the written policies or laws of the Society or of the Kingdom, but they do have value. 
                                             
                                            Lawrence.


                                            --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Taranach McLeod <Taranach@...> wrote:


                                            From: Taranach McLeod <Taranach@...>
                                            Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                            To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 3:30 AM


                                            It is an egregious error to criticize or fault people for not automatically
                                            "knowing" what is not written, what is not communicated and what can
                                            apparently not be explained.
                                            If these "Values" and "Traditions" cannot be effectively passed along then
                                            they cannot be used as an unassailable bludgeon in the defense of someones
                                            point of argument. The very act of having to say "Everyone should just know
                                            that" is a more than adequate indictment that such traditions are NOT as
                                            widespread and well known as may be supposed. It also lends itself to the
                                            observation that the person may no longer have a truly valid argument to
                                            support his cause and is resorting to a phrase that has no real meaning for
                                            justification.

                                            Taranach
                                            "Melior morior in nostrum pedis quam inservio in nostrum genua."
                                            "Tradition without intelligence is not worth having" T.S. Elliot



                                            On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Joel Doner <jmdoner@...> wrote:

                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Fairfax:
                                            >
                                            > I am not mocking you when I say, I feel bad that after 15 years you have
                                            > not seen what I am talking about. That you do not know the SCA I have
                                            > experienced over these many years.  We don't codify tradition and our
                                            > values. We shouldn't have to because they are not laws. They are part of our
                                            > culture. I cannot give you all of these ideas or do justice to these
                                            > concepts in a few sentences or in this forum.  I will try to give an
                                            > example.
                                            >
                                            > I was taught one of those unwritten truths is that Kingdoms were the heart
                                            > and soul of the SCA. That each Kingdom is unique and should be allowed to
                                            > express it's character in its own way. We as with other Kingdoms take pride
                                            > in our culture. Eventhough Aethelmarc, Atlantia and Drachenwald all came
                                            > from the East, each of them was allowed to create their own traditions,
                                            > customs and policies rergardless of how we or the others Kingdoms felt.
                                            > When each of these Kingdoms were created, there was never an idea that they
                                            > would have to keep any of the Eastern traditions they had when they were
                                            > part of our Kingdom.
                                            >
                                            > I probably did not do justice to this idea, but I hope you get the general
                                            > gist.
                                            >
                                            > Lawrence
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Bob Davis <bob@...<bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>>
                                            > wrote:
                                            >
                                            > From: Bob Davis <bob@...<bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                            > To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com <EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 7:22 AM
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Bob Davis wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >>I agree that it is no longer 1968, 1998 or even 2008. But, that does
                                            > >>not mean we give up the ideas that are at the heart of our Society
                                            > >>and Kingdom. Some truths, even unwritten truths transcend time.
                                            > >>Perhaps that is why were are anachronists to begin with and try to
                                            > >>preserve the best ideas from times long ago. I don't think my
                                            > >>understanding or definition of what our society should be are no
                                            > >>longer applicable as you suggested.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > What ideas are these, then? Perhaps I'm too new (I've only been in the
                                            > > East for 12 years, and in the SCA for 15), but I can't seem to find them.
                                            >
                                            > I forgot to expand upon this before clicking "Send".
                                            >
                                            > I'm seriously asking. It seems that every time a discussion comes up
                                            > that involves increasing accountability for material culture someone
                                            > pipes up with this argument.
                                            >
                                            > And yet I've never seen a codified answer. I've never even seen two
                                            > people - who are arguing on the same side - coincide with what they
                                            > consider those "truths" and "ideas" to be.
                                            >
                                            > Somebody help me out, here. What exactly are these truths? Why aren't
                                            > they codified, or at least more readily available?
                                            >
                                            > Sincerely,
                                            >
                                            > Fairfax
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >

                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                            ------------------------------------

                                            Yahoo! Groups Links








                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Albrecht
                                            Actually the toast belongs to the King s champion...it s a challenge. If the champion isn t present, then it falls to the senior peer present. Albrecht My
                                            Message 21 of 29 , May 3 11:52 AM
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Actually the toast belongs to the King's champion...it's a challenge.
                                              If the champion isn't present, then it falls to the senior peer present.

                                              Albrecht

                                              My understanding of the tradition

                                              Joel Doner wrote:
                                              > Taranach:
                                              >
                                              > If I have slighted you by what I have said about knowing Eastern traditions, I apologize. If the Peers and older members of our Kingdom have not been communicating these traditions and cultural values, then we have failed, not you.
                                              >
                                              > Many of the traditions and values that are passed down in the SCA are through the many Teacher/Student relationships, ie Knight/Squire, Laurel/Apprentice, Don/Cadet, etc. Much of what I have learned was from my former Knight, my Pelican and thier peers.
                                              >
                                              > Some of what I learned was from standing in the back of the common tent, watching and listening to those who were here before me. Sometimes, someone would flat out tell me I made a fau paux and told me according to tradition what I should have been doing, or not been doing. I learn things all the time from others simply by talking to people who have been here longer or know more than me. And there are plenty of people who do. There are many things we learn in life that are not written, but they are still important. Sometimes we learn them by playing in the sandbox with others.
                                              >
                                              > When I say I could not give justice to them in this forum, I ment that. It took me years of living in the East to learn them and I am still learning. Here are some examples of Eastern traditions and cultural values that are not in writing; the highest ranking peer at a feast gets the honor of toasting the K&Q, then we go down the line to the next highest ranking peer for the toast to P&P, Cooks, etc. It is tradition for a peer to serve High Table whenever possible. Unlike some of the Western Kingdoms we do not bow infront of empty throwns of the Royalty. None of this is in writing, but these things are important to the identity of the East Kingdom.
                                              >
                                              > As for the validity of my arguments in this case, whether you agree with them or not, I think I have made my points clear including those on Eastern tradition. I disagree that all of these things need to be written to have weight in the discussion. And just because no one took the time to tell you what they were, doesen't lessen their importance in this discussion, or make them unworthy of consideration. The point is that tradition and values are more then the written policies or laws of the Society or of the Kingdom, but they do have value.
                                              >
                                              > Lawrence.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Taranach McLeod <Taranach@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > From: Taranach McLeod <Taranach@...>
                                              > Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                              > To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 3:30 AM
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > It is an egregious error to criticize or fault people for not automatically
                                              > "knowing" what is not written, what is not communicated and what can
                                              > apparently not be explained.
                                              > If these "Values" and "Traditions" cannot be effectively passed along then
                                              > they cannot be used as an unassailable bludgeon in the defense of someones
                                              > point of argument. The very act of having to say "Everyone should just know
                                              > that" is a more than adequate indictment that such traditions are NOT as
                                              > widespread and well known as may be supposed. It also lends itself to the
                                              > observation that the person may no longer have a truly valid argument to
                                              > support his cause and is resorting to a phrase that has no real meaning for
                                              > justification.
                                              >
                                              > Taranach
                                              > "Melior morior in nostrum pedis quam inservio in nostrum genua."
                                              > "Tradition without intelligence is not worth having" T.S. Elliot
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Joel Doner <jmdoner@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >> Fairfax:
                                              >>
                                              >> I am not mocking you when I say, I feel bad that after 15 years you have
                                              >> not seen what I am talking about. That you do not know the SCA I have
                                              >> experienced over these many years. We don't codify tradition and our
                                              >> values. We shouldn't have to because they are not laws. They are part of our
                                              >> culture. I cannot give you all of these ideas or do justice to these
                                              >> concepts in a few sentences or in this forum. I will try to give an
                                              >> example.
                                              >>
                                              >> I was taught one of those unwritten truths is that Kingdoms were the heart
                                              >> and soul of the SCA. That each Kingdom is unique and should be allowed to
                                              >> express it's character in its own way. We as with other Kingdoms take pride
                                              >> in our culture. Eventhough Aethelmarc, Atlantia and Drachenwald all came
                                              >> from the East, each of them was allowed to create their own traditions,
                                              >> customs and policies rergardless of how we or the others Kingdoms felt.
                                              >> When each of these Kingdoms were created, there was never an idea that they
                                              >> would have to keep any of the Eastern traditions they had when they were
                                              >> part of our Kingdom.
                                              >>
                                              >> I probably did not do justice to this idea, but I hope you get the general
                                              >> gist.
                                              >>
                                              >> Lawrence
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Bob Davis <bob@...<bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>>
                                              >> wrote:
                                              >>
                                              >> From: Bob Davis <bob@...<bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>
                                              >>
                                              >> Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                              >> To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com <EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              >> Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 7:22 AM
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> Bob Davis wrote:
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>>> I agree that it is no longer 1968, 1998 or even 2008. But, that does
                                              >>>> not mean we give up the ideas that are at the heart of our Society
                                              >>>> and Kingdom. Some truths, even unwritten truths transcend time.
                                              >>>> Perhaps that is why were are anachronists to begin with and try to
                                              >>>> preserve the best ideas from times long ago. I don't think my
                                              >>>> understanding or definition of what our society should be are no
                                              >>>> longer applicable as you suggested.
                                              >>>>
                                              >>> What ideas are these, then? Perhaps I'm too new (I've only been in the
                                              >>> East for 12 years, and in the SCA for 15), but I can't seem to find them.
                                              >>>
                                              >> I forgot to expand upon this before clicking "Send".
                                              >>
                                              >> I'm seriously asking. It seems that every time a discussion comes up
                                              >> that involves increasing accountability for material culture someone
                                              >> pipes up with this argument.
                                              >>
                                              >> And yet I've never seen a codified answer. I've never even seen two
                                              >> people - who are arguing on the same side - coincide with what they
                                              >> consider those "truths" and "ideas" to be.
                                              >>
                                              >> Somebody help me out, here. What exactly are these truths? Why aren't
                                              >> they codified, or at least more readily available?
                                              >>
                                              >> Sincerely,
                                              >>
                                              >> Fairfax
                                              >>
                                              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Joel Doner
                                              See, I just learned something new again. ... From: Albrecht Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards To:
                                              Message 22 of 29 , May 3 12:45 PM
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                See, I just learned something new again.

                                                --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Albrecht <siralbrecht@...> wrote:


                                                From: Albrecht <siralbrecht@...>
                                                Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                                To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 2:52 PM


                                                 



                                                Actually the toast belongs to the King's champion...it' s a challenge.
                                                If the champion isn't present, then it falls to the senior peer present.

                                                Albrecht

                                                My understanding of the tradition

                                                Joel Doner wrote:
                                                > Taranach:
                                                >
                                                > If I have slighted you by what I have said about knowing Eastern traditions, I apologize. If the Peers and older members of our Kingdom have not been communicating these traditions and cultural values, then we have failed, not you.
                                                >
                                                > Many of the traditions and values that are passed down in the SCA are through the many Teacher/Student relationships, ie Knight/Squire, Laurel/Apprentice, Don/Cadet, etc. Much of what I have learned was from my former Knight, my Pelican and thier peers.
                                                >
                                                > Some of what I learned was from standing in the back of the common tent, watching and listening to those who were here before me. Sometimes, someone would flat out tell me I made a fau paux and told me according to tradition what I should have been doing, or not been doing. I learn things all the time from others simply by talking to people who have been here longer or know more than me. And there are plenty of people who do. There are many things we learn in life that are not written, but they are still important. Sometimes we learn them by playing in the sandbox with others.
                                                >
                                                > When I say I could not give justice to them in this forum, I ment that. It took me years of living in the East to learn them and I am still learning. Here are some examples of Eastern traditions and cultural values that are not in writing; the highest ranking peer at a feast gets the honor of toasting the K&Q, then we go down the line to the next highest ranking peer for the toast to P&P, Cooks, etc. It is tradition for a peer to serve High Table whenever possible. Unlike some of the Western Kingdoms we do not bow infront of empty throwns of the Royalty. None of this is in writing, but these things are important to the identity of the East Kingdom.
                                                >
                                                > As for the validity of my arguments in this case, whether you agree with them or not, I think I have made my points clear including those on Eastern tradition. I disagree that all of these things need to be written to have weight in the discussion. And just because no one took the time to tell you what they were, doesen't lessen their importance in this discussion, or make them unworthy of consideration. The point is that tradition and values are more then the written policies or laws of the Society or of the Kingdom, but they do have value.
                                                >
                                                > Lawrence.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Taranach McLeod <Taranach@gmail. com> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > From: Taranach McLeod <Taranach@gmail. com>
                                                > Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                                > To: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com
                                                > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 3:30 AM
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > It is an egregious error to criticize or fault people for not automatically
                                                > "knowing" what is not written, what is not communicated and what can
                                                > apparently not be explained.
                                                > If these "Values" and "Traditions" cannot be effectively passed along then
                                                > they cannot be used as an unassailable bludgeon in the defense of someones
                                                > point of argument. The very act of having to say "Everyone should just know
                                                > that" is a more than adequate indictment that such traditions are NOT as
                                                > widespread and well known as may be supposed. It also lends itself to the
                                                > observation that the person may no longer have a truly valid argument to
                                                > support his cause and is resorting to a phrase that has no real meaning for
                                                > justification.
                                                >
                                                > Taranach
                                                > "Melior morior in nostrum pedis quam inservio in nostrum genua."
                                                > "Tradition without intelligence is not worth having" T.S. Elliot
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Joel Doner <jmdoner@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >> Fairfax:
                                                >>
                                                >> I am not mocking you when I say, I feel bad that after 15 years you have
                                                >> not seen what I am talking about. That you do not know the SCA I have
                                                >> experienced over these many years. We don't codify tradition and our
                                                >> values. We shouldn't have to because they are not laws. They are part of our
                                                >> culture. I cannot give you all of these ideas or do justice to these
                                                >> concepts in a few sentences or in this forum. I will try to give an
                                                >> example.
                                                >>
                                                >> I was taught one of those unwritten truths is that Kingdoms were the heart
                                                >> and soul of the SCA. That each Kingdom is unique and should be allowed to
                                                >> express it's character in its own way. We as with other Kingdoms take pride
                                                >> in our culture. Eventhough Aethelmarc, Atlantia and Drachenwald all came
                                                >> from the East, each of them was allowed to create their own traditions,
                                                >> customs and policies rergardless of how we or the others Kingdoms felt.
                                                >> When each of these Kingdoms were created, there was never an idea that they
                                                >> would have to keep any of the Eastern traditions they had when they were
                                                >> part of our Kingdom.
                                                >>
                                                >> I probably did not do justice to this idea, but I hope you get the general
                                                >> gist.
                                                >>
                                                >> Lawrence
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Bob Davis <bob@reconstructingh istory.com<bob%40reconstructi nghistory. com>>
                                                >> wrote:
                                                >>
                                                >> From: Bob Davis <bob@reconstructingh istory.com<bob%40reconstructi nghistory. com>
                                                >>
                                                >> Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                                >> To: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com <EKSouth%40yahoogro ups.com>
                                                >> Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 7:22 AM
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> Bob Davis wrote:
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>>> I agree that it is no longer 1968, 1998 or even 2008. But, that does
                                                >>>> not mean we give up the ideas that are at the heart of our Society
                                                >>>> and Kingdom. Some truths, even unwritten truths transcend time.
                                                >>>> Perhaps that is why were are anachronists to begin with and try to
                                                >>>> preserve the best ideas from times long ago. I don't think my
                                                >>>> understanding or definition of what our society should be are no
                                                >>>> longer applicable as you suggested.
                                                >>>>
                                                >>> What ideas are these, then? Perhaps I'm too new (I've only been in the
                                                >>> East for 12 years, and in the SCA for 15), but I can't seem to find them.
                                                >>>
                                                >> I forgot to expand upon this before clicking "Send".
                                                >>
                                                >> I'm seriously asking. It seems that every time a discussion comes up
                                                >> that involves increasing accountability for material culture someone
                                                >> pipes up with this argument.
                                                >>
                                                >> And yet I've never seen a codified answer. I've never even seen two
                                                >> people - who are arguing on the same side - coincide with what they
                                                >> consider those "truths" and "ideas" to be.
                                                >>
                                                >> Somebody help me out, here. What exactly are these truths? Why aren't
                                                >> they codified, or at least more readily available?
                                                >>
                                                >> Sincerely,
                                                >>
                                                >> Fairfax
                                                >>
                                                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Gabrielle Taylor
                                                Vivat! Gabrielle ... From: Joel Doner To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards See,
                                                Message 23 of 29 , May 3 12:47 PM
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Vivat!

                                                  Gabrielle

                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: Joel Doner
                                                  To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:45 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards



                                                  See, I just learned something new again.

                                                  --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Albrecht <siralbrecht@...> wrote:

                                                  From: Albrecht <siralbrecht@...>
                                                  Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                                  To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 2:52 PM



                                                  Actually the toast belongs to the King's champion...it' s a challenge.
                                                  If the champion isn't present, then it falls to the senior peer present.

                                                  Albrecht

                                                  My understanding of the tradition

                                                  Joel Doner wrote:
                                                  > Taranach:
                                                  >
                                                  > If I have slighted you by what I have said about knowing Eastern traditions, I apologize. If the Peers and older members of our Kingdom have not been communicating these traditions and cultural values, then we have failed, not you.
                                                  >
                                                  > Many of the traditions and values that are passed down in the SCA are through the many Teacher/Student relationships, ie Knight/Squire, Laurel/Apprentice, Don/Cadet, etc. Much of what I have learned was from my former Knight, my Pelican and thier peers.
                                                  >
                                                  > Some of what I learned was from standing in the back of the common tent, watching and listening to those who were here before me. Sometimes, someone would flat out tell me I made a fau paux and told me according to tradition what I should have been doing, or not been doing. I learn things all the time from others simply by talking to people who have been here longer or know more than me. And there are plenty of people who do. There are many things we learn in life that are not written, but they are still important. Sometimes we learn them by playing in the sandbox with others.
                                                  >
                                                  > When I say I could not give justice to them in this forum, I ment that. It took me years of living in the East to learn them and I am still learning. Here are some examples of Eastern traditions and cultural values that are not in writing; the highest ranking peer at a feast gets the honor of toasting the K&Q, then we go down the line to the next highest ranking peer for the toast to P&P, Cooks, etc. It is tradition for a peer to serve High Table whenever possible. Unlike some of the Western Kingdoms we do not bow infront of empty throwns of the Royalty. None of this is in writing, but these things are important to the identity of the East Kingdom.
                                                  >
                                                  > As for the validity of my arguments in this case, whether you agree with them or not, I think I have made my points clear including those on Eastern tradition. I disagree that all of these things need to be written to have weight in the discussion. And just because no one took the time to tell you what they were, doesen't lessen their importance in this discussion, or make them unworthy of consideration. The point is that tradition and values are more then the written policies or laws of the Society or of the Kingdom, but they do have value.
                                                  >
                                                  > Lawrence.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Taranach McLeod <Taranach@gmail. com> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > From: Taranach McLeod <Taranach@gmail. com>
                                                  > Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                                  > To: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com
                                                  > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 3:30 AM
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > It is an egregious error to criticize or fault people for not automatically
                                                  > "knowing" what is not written, what is not communicated and what can
                                                  > apparently not be explained.
                                                  > If these "Values" and "Traditions" cannot be effectively passed along then
                                                  > they cannot be used as an unassailable bludgeon in the defense of someones
                                                  > point of argument. The very act of having to say "Everyone should just know
                                                  > that" is a more than adequate indictment that such traditions are NOT as
                                                  > widespread and well known as may be supposed. It also lends itself to the
                                                  > observation that the person may no longer have a truly valid argument to
                                                  > support his cause and is resorting to a phrase that has no real meaning for
                                                  > justification.
                                                  >
                                                  > Taranach
                                                  > "Melior morior in nostrum pedis quam inservio in nostrum genua."
                                                  > "Tradition without intelligence is not worth having" T.S. Elliot
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Joel Doner <jmdoner@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >> Fairfax:
                                                  >>
                                                  >> I am not mocking you when I say, I feel bad that after 15 years you have
                                                  >> not seen what I am talking about. That you do not know the SCA I have
                                                  >> experienced over these many years. We don't codify tradition and our
                                                  >> values. We shouldn't have to because they are not laws. They are part of our
                                                  >> culture. I cannot give you all of these ideas or do justice to these
                                                  >> concepts in a few sentences or in this forum. I will try to give an
                                                  >> example.
                                                  >>
                                                  >> I was taught one of those unwritten truths is that Kingdoms were the heart
                                                  >> and soul of the SCA. That each Kingdom is unique and should be allowed to
                                                  >> express it's character in its own way. We as with other Kingdoms take pride
                                                  >> in our culture. Eventhough Aethelmarc, Atlantia and Drachenwald all came
                                                  >> from the East, each of them was allowed to create their own traditions,
                                                  >> customs and policies rergardless of how we or the others Kingdoms felt.
                                                  >> When each of these Kingdoms were created, there was never an idea that they
                                                  >> would have to keep any of the Eastern traditions they had when they were
                                                  >> part of our Kingdom.
                                                  >>
                                                  >> I probably did not do justice to this idea, but I hope you get the general
                                                  >> gist.
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Lawrence
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Bob Davis <bob@reconstructingh istory.com<bob%40reconstructi nghistory. com>>
                                                  >> wrote:
                                                  >>
                                                  >> From: Bob Davis <bob@reconstructingh istory.com<bob%40reconstructi nghistory. com>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                                  >> To: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com <EKSouth%40yahoogro ups.com>
                                                  >> Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 7:22 AM
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Bob Davis wrote:
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>>> I agree that it is no longer 1968, 1998 or even 2008. But, that does
                                                  >>>> not mean we give up the ideas that are at the heart of our Society
                                                  >>>> and Kingdom. Some truths, even unwritten truths transcend time.
                                                  >>>> Perhaps that is why were are anachronists to begin with and try to
                                                  >>>> preserve the best ideas from times long ago. I don't think my
                                                  >>>> understanding or definition of what our society should be are no
                                                  >>>> longer applicable as you suggested.
                                                  >>>>
                                                  >>> What ideas are these, then? Perhaps I'm too new (I've only been in the
                                                  >>> East for 12 years, and in the SCA for 15), but I can't seem to find them.
                                                  >>>
                                                  >> I forgot to expand upon this before clicking "Send".
                                                  >>
                                                  >> I'm seriously asking. It seems that every time a discussion comes up
                                                  >> that involves increasing accountability for material culture someone
                                                  >> pipes up with this argument.
                                                  >>
                                                  >> And yet I've never seen a codified answer. I've never even seen two
                                                  >> people - who are arguing on the same side - coincide with what they
                                                  >> consider those "truths" and "ideas" to be.
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Somebody help me out, here. What exactly are these truths? Why aren't
                                                  >> they codified, or at least more readily available?
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Sincerely,
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Fairfax
                                                  >>
                                                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                  >
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                  >
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >

                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • William Trommelen
                                                  That is an interesting idea, but in my 20 years in the East I have never seen that done. I have always seen it done the way Larry described. Griffith From:
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , May 3 12:50 PM
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    That is an interesting idea, but in my 20 years in the East I have never
                                                    seen that done.

                                                    I have always seen it done the way Larry described.



                                                    Griffith



                                                    From: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com [mailto:EKSouth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                                    Albrecht
                                                    Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 2:53 PM
                                                    To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards





                                                    Actually the toast belongs to the King's champion...it's a challenge.
                                                    If the champion isn't present, then it falls to the senior peer present.

                                                    Albrecht

                                                    My understanding of the tradition

                                                    Joel Doner wrote:
                                                    > Taranach:
                                                    >
                                                    > If I have slighted you by what I have said about knowing Eastern
                                                    traditions, I apologize. If the Peers and older members of our Kingdom have
                                                    not been communicating these traditions and cultural values, then we have
                                                    failed, not you.
                                                    >
                                                    > Many of the traditions and values that are passed down in the SCA are
                                                    through the many Teacher/Student relationships, ie Knight/Squire,
                                                    Laurel/Apprentice, Don/Cadet, etc. Much of what I have learned was from my
                                                    former Knight, my Pelican and thier peers.
                                                    >
                                                    > Some of what I learned was from standing in the back of the common tent,
                                                    watching and listening to those who were here before me. Sometimes, someone
                                                    would flat out tell me I made a fau paux and told me according to tradition
                                                    what I should have been doing, or not been doing. I learn things all the
                                                    time from others simply by talking to people who have been here longer or
                                                    know more than me. And there are plenty of people who do. There are many
                                                    things we learn in life that are not written, but they are still important.
                                                    Sometimes we learn them by playing in the sandbox with others.
                                                    >
                                                    > When I say I could not give justice to them in this forum, I ment that. It
                                                    took me years of living in the East to learn them and I am still learning.
                                                    Here are some examples of Eastern traditions and cultural values that are
                                                    not in writing; the highest ranking peer at a feast gets the honor of
                                                    toasting the K&Q, then we go down the line to the next highest ranking peer
                                                    for the toast to P&P, Cooks, etc. It is tradition for a peer to serve High
                                                    Table whenever possible. Unlike some of the Western Kingdoms we do not bow
                                                    infront of empty throwns of the Royalty. None of this is in writing, but
                                                    these things are important to the identity of the East Kingdom.
                                                    >
                                                    > As for the validity of my arguments in this case, whether you agree with
                                                    them or not, I think I have made my points clear including those on Eastern
                                                    tradition. I disagree that all of these things need to be written to have
                                                    weight in the discussion. And just because no one took the time to tell you
                                                    what they were, doesen't lessen their importance in this discussion, or make
                                                    them unworthy of consideration. The point is that tradition and values are
                                                    more then the written policies or laws of the Society or of the Kingdom, but
                                                    they do have value.
                                                    >
                                                    > Lawrence.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Taranach McLeod <Taranach@...
                                                    <mailto:Taranach%40gmail.com> > wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > From: Taranach McLeod <Taranach@... <mailto:Taranach%40gmail.com> >
                                                    > Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                                    > To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 3:30 AM
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > It is an egregious error to criticize or fault people for not
                                                    automatically
                                                    > "knowing" what is not written, what is not communicated and what can
                                                    > apparently not be explained.
                                                    > If these "Values" and "Traditions" cannot be effectively passed along then
                                                    > they cannot be used as an unassailable bludgeon in the defense of someones
                                                    > point of argument. The very act of having to say "Everyone should just
                                                    know
                                                    > that" is a more than adequate indictment that such traditions are NOT as
                                                    > widespread and well known as may be supposed. It also lends itself to the
                                                    > observation that the person may no longer have a truly valid argument to
                                                    > support his cause and is resorting to a phrase that has no real meaning
                                                    for
                                                    > justification.
                                                    >
                                                    > Taranach
                                                    > "Melior morior in nostrum pedis quam inservio in nostrum genua."
                                                    > "Tradition without intelligence is not worth having" T.S. Elliot
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Joel Doner <jmdoner@...
                                                    <mailto:jmdoner%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >> Fairfax:
                                                    >>
                                                    >> I am not mocking you when I say, I feel bad that after 15 years you have
                                                    >> not seen what I am talking about. That you do not know the SCA I have
                                                    >> experienced over these many years. We don't codify tradition and our
                                                    >> values. We shouldn't have to because they are not laws. They are part of
                                                    our
                                                    >> culture. I cannot give you all of these ideas or do justice to these
                                                    >> concepts in a few sentences or in this forum. I will try to give an
                                                    >> example.
                                                    >>
                                                    >> I was taught one of those unwritten truths is that Kingdoms were the
                                                    heart
                                                    >> and soul of the SCA. That each Kingdom is unique and should be allowed to
                                                    >> express it's character in its own way. We as with other Kingdoms take
                                                    pride
                                                    >> in our culture. Eventhough Aethelmarc, Atlantia and Drachenwald all came
                                                    >> from the East, each of them was allowed to create their own traditions,
                                                    >> customs and policies rergardless of how we or the others Kingdoms felt.
                                                    >> When each of these Kingdoms were created, there was never an idea that
                                                    they
                                                    >> would have to keep any of the Eastern traditions they had when they were
                                                    >> part of our Kingdom.
                                                    >>
                                                    >> I probably did not do justice to this idea, but I hope you get the
                                                    general
                                                    >> gist.
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Lawrence
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >> --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Bob Davis <bob@...
                                                    <mailto:bob%40reconstructinghistory.com> <bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>>
                                                    >> wrote:
                                                    >>
                                                    >> From: Bob Davis <bob@...
                                                    <mailto:bob%40reconstructinghistory.com> <bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                                    >> To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    <EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    >> Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 7:22 AM
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Bob Davis wrote:
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>>> I agree that it is no longer 1968, 1998 or even 2008. But, that does
                                                    >>>> not mean we give up the ideas that are at the heart of our Society
                                                    >>>> and Kingdom. Some truths, even unwritten truths transcend time.
                                                    >>>> Perhaps that is why were are anachronists to begin with and try to
                                                    >>>> preserve the best ideas from times long ago. I don't think my
                                                    >>>> understanding or definition of what our society should be are no
                                                    >>>> longer applicable as you suggested.
                                                    >>>>
                                                    >>> What ideas are these, then? Perhaps I'm too new (I've only been in the
                                                    >>> East for 12 years, and in the SCA for 15), but I can't seem to find
                                                    them.
                                                    >>>
                                                    >> I forgot to expand upon this before clicking "Send".
                                                    >>
                                                    >> I'm seriously asking. It seems that every time a discussion comes up
                                                    >> that involves increasing accountability for material culture someone
                                                    >> pipes up with this argument.
                                                    >>
                                                    >> And yet I've never seen a codified answer. I've never even seen two
                                                    >> people - who are arguing on the same side - coincide with what they
                                                    >> consider those "truths" and "ideas" to be.
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Somebody help me out, here. What exactly are these truths? Why aren't
                                                    >> they codified, or at least more readily available?
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Sincerely,
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Fairfax
                                                    >>
                                                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ------------------------------------
                                                    >
                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ------------------------------------
                                                    >
                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Alissa Pyrich
                                                    And if I, as the local herald, tried to hand off the toast to the Crown to the King s Champion (currently unbelted), there d be Peers, Counts and Dukes *and*
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , May 3 12:55 PM
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      And if I, as the local herald, tried to hand off the
                                                      toast to the Crown to the King's Champion (currently
                                                      unbelted), there'd be Peers, Counts and Dukes *and*
                                                      my Baron and Baroness jumping down my throat within
                                                      mere seconds.
                                                       
                                                      I submit that  custom that no one currently recalls
                                                      is no longer the custom.
                                                       
                                                      Alys
                                                       
                                                       
                                                       

                                                      >
                                                      > <EKSouth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   > > >

                                                      > That is an interesting idea, but in my 20 years in
                                                      > the East I have never
                                                      > seen that done.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Griffith
                                                      >
                                                      > From: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com [mailto:EKSouth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                                      > Albrecht
                                                      > Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 2:53 PM
                                                      > To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > s a challenge.
                                                      > If the champion isn't present, then it falls to the
                                                      > senior peer present.
                                                      >
                                                      > Albrecht
                                                      >
                                                      > My understanding of the tradition
                                                      >
                                                      > Joel Doner wrote:
                                                      > > Taranach:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > If I have slighted you by what I have said about
                                                      > knowing Eastern
                                                      > traditions, I apologize. If the Peers and older members
                                                      > of our Kingdom have
                                                      > not been communicating these traditions and cultural
                                                      > values, then we have
                                                      > failed, not you.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Many of the traditions and values that are passed
                                                      > down in the SCA are
                                                      > through the many Teacher/Student relationships, ie
                                                      > Knight/Squire,
                                                      > Laurel/Apprentice, Don/Cadet, etc. Much of what I
                                                      > have learned was from my
                                                      > former Knight, my Pelican and thier peers.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Some of what I learned was from standing in the
                                                      > back of the common tent,
                                                      > watching and listening to those who were here before
                                                      > me. Sometimes, someone
                                                      > would flat out tell me I made a fau paux and told
                                                      > me according to tradition
                                                      > what I should have been doing, or not been doing.
                                                      > I learn things all the
                                                      > time from others simply by talking to people who
                                                      > have been here longer or
                                                      > know more than me. And there are plenty of people
                                                      > who do. There are many
                                                      > things we learn in life that are not written, but
                                                      > they are still important.
                                                      > Sometimes we learn them by playing in the sandbox
                                                      > with others.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > When I say I could not give justice to them in
                                                      > this forum, I ment that. It
                                                      > took me years of living in the East to learn them
                                                      > and I am still learning.
                                                      > Here are some examples of Eastern traditions and
                                                      > cultural values that are
                                                      > not in writing; the highest ranking peer at a feast
                                                      > gets the honor of
                                                      > toasting the K&Q, then we go down the line to the
                                                      > next highest ranking peer
                                                      > for the toast to P&P, Cooks, etc. It is tradition
                                                      > for a peer to serve High
                                                      > Table whenever possible. Unlike some of the Western
                                                      > Kingdoms we do not bow
                                                      > infront of empty throwns of the Royalty. None of
                                                      > this is in writing, but
                                                      > these things are important to the identity of the
                                                      > East Kingdom.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > As for the validity of my arguments in this case,
                                                      > whether you agree with
                                                      > them or not, I think I have made my points clear
                                                      > including those on Eastern
                                                      > tradition. I disagree that all of these things need
                                                      > to be written to have
                                                      > weight in the discussion. And just because no one
                                                      > took the time to tell you
                                                      > what they were, doesen't lessen their importance
                                                      > in this discussion, or make
                                                      > them unworthy of consideration. The point is that
                                                      > tradition and values are
                                                      > more then the written policies or laws of the Society
                                                      > or of the Kingdom, but
                                                      > they do have value.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Lawrence.
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Taranach McLeod <Taranach@...
                                                      > <mailto:Taranach%40gmail.com> > wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > From: Taranach McLeod <Taranach@... <mailto:Taranach%40gmail.com> >
                                                      >
                                                      > > To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      > > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 3:30 AM
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > It is an egregious error to criticize or fault
                                                      > people for not
                                                      > automatically
                                                      > > "knowing" what is not written, what is not communicated
                                                      > and what can
                                                      > > apparently not be explained.
                                                      > > If these "Values" and "Traditions" cannot be effectively
                                                      > passed along then
                                                      > > they cannot be used as an unassailable bludgeon
                                                      > in the defense of someones
                                                      > > point of argument. The very act of having to say
                                                      > "Everyone should just
                                                      > know
                                                      > > that" is a more than adequate indictment that such
                                                      > traditions are NOT as
                                                      > > widespread and well known as may be supposed. It
                                                      > also lends itself to the
                                                      > > observation that the person may no longer have
                                                      > a truly valid argument to
                                                      > > support his cause and is resorting to a phrase
                                                      > that has no real meaning
                                                      > for
                                                      > > justification.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Taranach
                                                      > > "Melior morior in nostrum pedis quam inservio in
                                                      > nostrum genua."
                                                      > > "Tradition without intelligence is not worth having"
                                                      > T.S. Elliot
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Joel Doner <jmdoner@...
                                                      > <mailto:jmdoner%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >> Fairfax:
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> I am not mocking you when I say, I feel bad that
                                                      > after 15 years you have
                                                      > >> not seen what I am talking about. That you do
                                                      > not know the SCA I have
                                                      > >> experienced over these many years. We don't codify
                                                      > tradition and our
                                                      > >> values. We shouldn't have to because they are
                                                      > not laws. They are part of
                                                      > our
                                                      > >> culture. I cannot give you all of these ideas
                                                      > or do justice to these
                                                      > >> concepts in a few sentences or in this forum.
                                                      > I will try to give an
                                                      > >> example.
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> I was taught one of those unwritten truths is
                                                      > that Kingdoms were the
                                                      > heart
                                                      > >> and soul of the SCA. That each Kingdom is unique
                                                      > and should be allowed to
                                                      > >> express it's character in its own way. We as with
                                                      > other Kingdoms take
                                                      > pride
                                                      > >> in our culture. Eventhough Aethelmarc, Atlantia
                                                      > and Drachenwald all came
                                                      > >> from the East, each of them was allowed to create
                                                      > their own traditions,
                                                      > >> customs and policies rergardless of how we or
                                                      > the others Kingdoms felt.
                                                      > >> When each of these Kingdoms were created, there
                                                      > was never an idea that
                                                      > they
                                                      > >> would have to keep any of the Eastern traditions
                                                      > they had when they were
                                                      > >> part of our Kingdom.
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> I probably did not do justice to this idea, but
                                                      > I hope you get the
                                                      > general
                                                      > >> gist.
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> Lawrence
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Bob Davis <bob@...
                                                      > <mailto:bob%40reconstructinghistory.com> <bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>>
                                                      > >> wrote:
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> From: Bob Davis <bob@...
                                                      > <mailto:bob%40reconstructinghistory.com> <bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>
                                                      > >>
                                                      >
                                                      > >> To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      > <EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      > >> Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 7:22 AM
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> Bob Davis wrote:
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >>>> I agree that it is no longer 1968, 1998 or even
                                                      > 2008. But, that does
                                                      > >>>> not mean we give up the ideas that are at the
                                                      > heart of our Society
                                                      > >>>> and Kingdom. Some truths, even unwritten truths
                                                      > transcend time.
                                                      > >>>> Perhaps that is why were are anachronists to
                                                      > begin with and try to
                                                      > >>>> preserve the best ideas from times long ago.
                                                      > I don't think my
                                                      > >>>> understanding or definition of what our society
                                                      > should be are no
                                                      > >>>> longer applicable as you suggested.
                                                      > >>>>
                                                      > >>> What ideas are these, then? Perhaps I'm too new
                                                      > (I've only been in the
                                                      > >>> East for 12 years, and in the SCA for 15), but
                                                      > I can't seem to find
                                                      > them.
                                                      > >>>
                                                      >
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> I'm seriously asking. It seems that every time
                                                      > a discussion comes up
                                                      > >> that involves increasing accountability for material
                                                      > culture someone
                                                      > >> pipes up with this argument.
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> And yet I've never seen a codified answer. I've
                                                      > never even seen two
                                                      > >> people - who are arguing on the same side - coincide
                                                      > with what they
                                                      > >> consider those "truths" and "ideas" to be.
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> Somebody help me out, here. What exactly are these
                                                      > truths? Why aren't
                                                      >
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> Sincerely,
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> Fairfax
                                                      > >>
                                                      >
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > ------------------------------------
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > ------------------------------------
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus,
                                                      > version of virus signature
                                                      > database 5083 (20100503) __________
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > http://www.eset.com
                                                      >
                                                      >


                                                      >



                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Gabrielle Taylor
                                                      I should add, this has been a really interesting discussion and I have learned so much - especially with getting so many perspectives on things. Thank you
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , May 3 1:03 PM
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        I should add, this has been a really interesting discussion and I have learned so much - especially with getting so many perspectives on things. Thank you everyone for being so respectful while making your valuable points. From a historical perspective too there has been so much to share. It has been a very interesting read.

                                                        Gabrielle


                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                        From: Gabrielle Taylor
                                                        To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:47 PM
                                                        Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards



                                                        Vivat!

                                                        Gabrielle

                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                        From: Joel Doner
                                                        To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:45 PM
                                                        Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards

                                                        See, I just learned something new again.

                                                        --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Albrecht <siralbrecht@...> wrote:

                                                        From: Albrecht <siralbrecht@...>
                                                        Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                                        To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 2:52 PM

                                                        Actually the toast belongs to the King's champion...it' s a challenge.
                                                        If the champion isn't present, then it falls to the senior peer present.

                                                        Albrecht

                                                        My understanding of the tradition

                                                        Joel Doner wrote:
                                                        > Taranach:
                                                        >
                                                        > If I have slighted you by what I have said about knowing Eastern traditions, I apologize. If the Peers and older members of our Kingdom have not been communicating these traditions and cultural values, then we have failed, not you.
                                                        >
                                                        > Many of the traditions and values that are passed down in the SCA are through the many Teacher/Student relationships, ie Knight/Squire, Laurel/Apprentice, Don/Cadet, etc. Much of what I have learned was from my former Knight, my Pelican and thier peers.
                                                        >
                                                        > Some of what I learned was from standing in the back of the common tent, watching and listening to those who were here before me. Sometimes, someone would flat out tell me I made a fau paux and told me according to tradition what I should have been doing, or not been doing. I learn things all the time from others simply by talking to people who have been here longer or know more than me. And there are plenty of people who do. There are many things we learn in life that are not written, but they are still important. Sometimes we learn them by playing in the sandbox with others.
                                                        >
                                                        > When I say I could not give justice to them in this forum, I ment that. It took me years of living in the East to learn them and I am still learning. Here are some examples of Eastern traditions and cultural values that are not in writing; the highest ranking peer at a feast gets the honor of toasting the K&Q, then we go down the line to the next highest ranking peer for the toast to P&P, Cooks, etc. It is tradition for a peer to serve High Table whenever possible. Unlike some of the Western Kingdoms we do not bow infront of empty throwns of the Royalty. None of this is in writing, but these things are important to the identity of the East Kingdom.
                                                        >
                                                        > As for the validity of my arguments in this case, whether you agree with them or not, I think I have made my points clear including those on Eastern tradition. I disagree that all of these things need to be written to have weight in the discussion. And just because no one took the time to tell you what they were, doesen't lessen their importance in this discussion, or make them unworthy of consideration. The point is that tradition and values are more then the written policies or laws of the Society or of the Kingdom, but they do have value.
                                                        >
                                                        > Lawrence.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Taranach McLeod <Taranach@gmail. com> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > From: Taranach McLeod <Taranach@gmail. com>
                                                        > Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                                        > To: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com
                                                        > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 3:30 AM
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > It is an egregious error to criticize or fault people for not automatically
                                                        > "knowing" what is not written, what is not communicated and what can
                                                        > apparently not be explained.
                                                        > If these "Values" and "Traditions" cannot be effectively passed along then
                                                        > they cannot be used as an unassailable bludgeon in the defense of someones
                                                        > point of argument. The very act of having to say "Everyone should just know
                                                        > that" is a more than adequate indictment that such traditions are NOT as
                                                        > widespread and well known as may be supposed. It also lends itself to the
                                                        > observation that the person may no longer have a truly valid argument to
                                                        > support his cause and is resorting to a phrase that has no real meaning for
                                                        > justification.
                                                        >
                                                        > Taranach
                                                        > "Melior morior in nostrum pedis quam inservio in nostrum genua."
                                                        > "Tradition without intelligence is not worth having" T.S. Elliot
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Joel Doner <jmdoner@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >> Fairfax:
                                                        >>
                                                        >> I am not mocking you when I say, I feel bad that after 15 years you have
                                                        >> not seen what I am talking about. That you do not know the SCA I have
                                                        >> experienced over these many years. We don't codify tradition and our
                                                        >> values. We shouldn't have to because they are not laws. They are part of our
                                                        >> culture. I cannot give you all of these ideas or do justice to these
                                                        >> concepts in a few sentences or in this forum. I will try to give an
                                                        >> example.
                                                        >>
                                                        >> I was taught one of those unwritten truths is that Kingdoms were the heart
                                                        >> and soul of the SCA. That each Kingdom is unique and should be allowed to
                                                        >> express it's character in its own way. We as with other Kingdoms take pride
                                                        >> in our culture. Eventhough Aethelmarc, Atlantia and Drachenwald all came
                                                        >> from the East, each of them was allowed to create their own traditions,
                                                        >> customs and policies rergardless of how we or the others Kingdoms felt.
                                                        >> When each of these Kingdoms were created, there was never an idea that they
                                                        >> would have to keep any of the Eastern traditions they had when they were
                                                        >> part of our Kingdom.
                                                        >>
                                                        >> I probably did not do justice to this idea, but I hope you get the general
                                                        >> gist.
                                                        >>
                                                        >> Lawrence
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >> --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Bob Davis <bob@reconstructingh istory.com<bob%40reconstructi nghistory. com>>
                                                        >> wrote:
                                                        >>
                                                        >> From: Bob Davis <bob@reconstructingh istory.com<bob%40reconstructi nghistory. com>
                                                        >>
                                                        >> Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                                        >> To: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com <EKSouth%40yahoogro ups.com>
                                                        >> Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 7:22 AM
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >> Bob Davis wrote:
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>>> I agree that it is no longer 1968, 1998 or even 2008. But, that does
                                                        >>>> not mean we give up the ideas that are at the heart of our Society
                                                        >>>> and Kingdom. Some truths, even unwritten truths transcend time.
                                                        >>>> Perhaps that is why were are anachronists to begin with and try to
                                                        >>>> preserve the best ideas from times long ago. I don't think my
                                                        >>>> understanding or definition of what our society should be are no
                                                        >>>> longer applicable as you suggested.
                                                        >>>>
                                                        >>> What ideas are these, then? Perhaps I'm too new (I've only been in the
                                                        >>> East for 12 years, and in the SCA for 15), but I can't seem to find them.
                                                        >>>
                                                        >> I forgot to expand upon this before clicking "Send".
                                                        >>
                                                        >> I'm seriously asking. It seems that every time a discussion comes up
                                                        >> that involves increasing accountability for material culture someone
                                                        >> pipes up with this argument.
                                                        >>
                                                        >> And yet I've never seen a codified answer. I've never even seen two
                                                        >> people - who are arguing on the same side - coincide with what they
                                                        >> consider those "truths" and "ideas" to be.
                                                        >>
                                                        >> Somebody help me out, here. What exactly are these truths? Why aren't
                                                        >> they codified, or at least more readily available?
                                                        >>
                                                        >> Sincerely,
                                                        >>
                                                        >> Fairfax
                                                        >>
                                                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                        >
                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                        >
                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >

                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • Joel Doner
                                                        Perhaps this could make a godd round table discussion at some EKU in the future.   Lawrence ... From: Gabrielle Taylor
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , May 3 1:27 PM
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Perhaps this could make a godd round table discussion at some EKU in the future.
                                                           
                                                          Lawrence

                                                          --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Gabrielle Taylor <gabrielletaylor@...> wrote:


                                                          From: Gabrielle Taylor <gabrielletaylor@...>
                                                          Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                                          To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 4:03 PM


                                                           



                                                          I should add, this has been a really interesting discussion and I have learned so much - especially with getting so many perspectives on things. Thank you everyone for being so respectful while making your valuable points. From a historical perspective too there has been so much to share. It has been a very interesting read.

                                                          Gabrielle

                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: Gabrielle Taylor
                                                          To: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com
                                                          Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:47 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards

                                                          Vivat!

                                                          Gabrielle

                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: Joel Doner
                                                          To: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com
                                                          Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:45 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards

                                                          See, I just learned something new again.

                                                          --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Albrecht <siralbrecht@ gmail.com> wrote:

                                                          From: Albrecht <siralbrecht@ gmail.com>
                                                          Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                                          To: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com
                                                          Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 2:52 PM

                                                          Actually the toast belongs to the King's champion...it' s a challenge.
                                                          If the champion isn't present, then it falls to the senior peer present.

                                                          Albrecht

                                                          My understanding of the tradition

                                                          Joel Doner wrote:
                                                          > Taranach:
                                                          >
                                                          > If I have slighted you by what I have said about knowing Eastern traditions, I apologize. If the Peers and older members of our Kingdom have not been communicating these traditions and cultural values, then we have failed, not you.
                                                          >
                                                          > Many of the traditions and values that are passed down in the SCA are through the many Teacher/Student relationships, ie Knight/Squire, Laurel/Apprentice, Don/Cadet, etc. Much of what I have learned was from my former Knight, my Pelican and thier peers.
                                                          >
                                                          > Some of what I learned was from standing in the back of the common tent, watching and listening to those who were here before me. Sometimes, someone would flat out tell me I made a fau paux and told me according to tradition what I should have been doing, or not been doing. I learn things all the time from others simply by talking to people who have been here longer or know more than me. And there are plenty of people who do. There are many things we learn in life that are not written, but they are still important. Sometimes we learn them by playing in the sandbox with others.
                                                          >
                                                          > When I say I could not give justice to them in this forum, I ment that. It took me years of living in the East to learn them and I am still learning. Here are some examples of Eastern traditions and cultural values that are not in writing; the highest ranking peer at a feast gets the honor of toasting the K&Q, then we go down the line to the next highest ranking peer for the toast to P&P, Cooks, etc. It is tradition for a peer to serve High Table whenever possible. Unlike some of the Western Kingdoms we do not bow infront of empty throwns of the Royalty. None of this is in writing, but these things are important to the identity of the East Kingdom.
                                                          >
                                                          > As for the validity of my arguments in this case, whether you agree with them or not, I think I have made my points clear including those on Eastern tradition. I disagree that all of these things need to be written to have weight in the discussion. And just because no one took the time to tell you what they were, doesen't lessen their importance in this discussion, or make them unworthy of consideration. The point is that tradition and values are more then the written policies or laws of the Society or of the Kingdom, but they do have value.
                                                          >
                                                          > Lawrence.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Taranach McLeod <Taranach@gmail. com> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > From: Taranach McLeod <Taranach@gmail. com>
                                                          > Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                                          > To: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com
                                                          > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 3:30 AM
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > It is an egregious error to criticize or fault people for not automatically
                                                          > "knowing" what is not written, what is not communicated and what can
                                                          > apparently not be explained.
                                                          > If these "Values" and "Traditions" cannot be effectively passed along then
                                                          > they cannot be used as an unassailable bludgeon in the defense of someones
                                                          > point of argument. The very act of having to say "Everyone should just know
                                                          > that" is a more than adequate indictment that such traditions are NOT as
                                                          > widespread and well known as may be supposed. It also lends itself to the
                                                          > observation that the person may no longer have a truly valid argument to
                                                          > support his cause and is resorting to a phrase that has no real meaning for
                                                          > justification.
                                                          >
                                                          > Taranach
                                                          > "Melior morior in nostrum pedis quam inservio in nostrum genua."
                                                          > "Tradition without intelligence is not worth having" T.S. Elliot
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Joel Doner <jmdoner@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >> Fairfax:
                                                          >>
                                                          >> I am not mocking you when I say, I feel bad that after 15 years you have
                                                          >> not seen what I am talking about. That you do not know the SCA I have
                                                          >> experienced over these many years. We don't codify tradition and our
                                                          >> values. We shouldn't have to because they are not laws. They are part of our
                                                          >> culture. I cannot give you all of these ideas or do justice to these
                                                          >> concepts in a few sentences or in this forum. I will try to give an
                                                          >> example.
                                                          >>
                                                          >> I was taught one of those unwritten truths is that Kingdoms were the heart
                                                          >> and soul of the SCA. That each Kingdom is unique and should be allowed to
                                                          >> express it's character in its own way. We as with other Kingdoms take pride
                                                          >> in our culture. Eventhough Aethelmarc, Atlantia and Drachenwald all came
                                                          >> from the East, each of them was allowed to create their own traditions,
                                                          >> customs and policies rergardless of how we or the others Kingdoms felt.
                                                          >> When each of these Kingdoms were created, there was never an idea that they
                                                          >> would have to keep any of the Eastern traditions they had when they were
                                                          >> part of our Kingdom.
                                                          >>
                                                          >> I probably did not do justice to this idea, but I hope you get the general
                                                          >> gist.
                                                          >>
                                                          >> Lawrence
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >> --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Bob Davis <bob@reconstructing h istory.com<bob% 40reconstructi nghistory. com>>
                                                          >> wrote:
                                                          >>
                                                          >> From: Bob Davis <bob@reconstructing h istory.com<bob% 40reconstructi nghistory. com>
                                                          >>
                                                          >> Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
                                                          >> To: EKSouth@yahoogroups .com <EKSouth%40yahoogro ups.com>
                                                          >> Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 7:22 AM
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >> Bob Davis wrote:
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >>>> I agree that it is no longer 1968, 1998 or even 2008. But, that does
                                                          >>>> not mean we give up the ideas that are at the heart of our Society
                                                          >>>> and Kingdom. Some truths, even unwritten truths transcend time.
                                                          >>>> Perhaps that is why were are anachronists to begin with and try to
                                                          >>>> preserve the best ideas from times long ago. I don't think my
                                                          >>>> understanding or definition of what our society should be are no
                                                          >>>> longer applicable as you suggested.
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>> What ideas are these, then? Perhaps I'm too new (I've only been in the
                                                          >>> East for 12 years, and in the SCA for 15), but I can't seem to find them.
                                                          >>>
                                                          >> I forgot to expand upon this before clicking "Send".
                                                          >>
                                                          >> I'm seriously asking. It seems that every time a discussion comes up
                                                          >> that involves increasing accountability for material culture someone
                                                          >> pipes up with this argument.
                                                          >>
                                                          >> And yet I've never seen a codified answer. I've never even seen two
                                                          >> people - who are arguing on the same side - coincide with what they
                                                          >> consider those "truths" and "ideas" to be.
                                                          >>
                                                          >> Somebody help me out, here. What exactly are these truths? Why aren't
                                                          >> they codified, or at least more readily available?
                                                          >>
                                                          >> Sincerely,
                                                          >>
                                                          >> Fairfax
                                                          >>
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                                                          >>
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                                                        • Mike Knauer
                                                          Actually many of them are written down and have been for years. They can be found either here: http://www.schuldy.org/fieldguide.html or here:
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , May 4 9:59 AM
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Actually many of them are written down and have been for years. They
                                                            can be found either here:
                                                            http://www.schuldy.org/fieldguide.html
                                                            or here:
                                                            http://www.eastkingdom.org/mediawiki/index.php/Customs

                                                            - Michel


                                                            Lawrence wrote:
                                                            > When I say I could not give justice to them in this forum, I ment
                                                            > that. It took me years of living in the East to learn them and I am
                                                            > still learning. Here are some examples of Eastern traditions and
                                                            > cultural values that are not in writing; the highest ranking peer at
                                                            > a feast gets the honor of toasting the K&Q, then we go down the line
                                                            > to the next highest ranking peer for the toast to P&P, Cooks, etc. It
                                                            > is tradition for a peer to serve High Table whenever possible. Unlike
                                                            > some of the Western Kingdoms we do not bow infront of empty throwns
                                                            > of the Royalty. None of this is in writing, but these things are
                                                            > important to the identity of the East Kingdom.
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