9618RE: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
- May 3, 2010And if I, as the local herald, tried to hand off the
toast to the Crown to the King's Champion (currently
unbelted), there'd be Peers, Counts and Dukes *and*
my Baron and Baroness jumping down my throat within
I submit that custom that no one currently recalls
is no longer the custom.
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> <EKSouth@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > >
> That is an interesting idea, but in my 20 years in
> the East I have never
> seen that done.
> From: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com [mailto:EKSouth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 2:53 PM
> To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
> s a challenge.
> If the champion isn't present, then it falls to the
> senior peer present.
> My understanding of the tradition
> Joel Doner wrote:
> > Taranach:
> > If I have slighted you by what I have said about
> knowing Eastern
> traditions, I apologize. If the Peers and older members
> of our Kingdom have
> not been communicating these traditions and cultural
> values, then we have
> failed, not you.
> > Many of the traditions and values that are passed
> down in the SCA are
> through the many Teacher/Student relationships, ie
> Laurel/Apprentice, Don/Cadet, etc. Much of what I
> have learned was from my
> former Knight, my Pelican and thier peers.
> > Some of what I learned was from standing in the
> back of the common tent,
> watching and listening to those who were here before
> me. Sometimes, someone
> would flat out tell me I made a fau paux and told
> me according to tradition
> what I should have been doing, or not been doing.
> I learn things all the
> time from others simply by talking to people who
> have been here longer or
> know more than me. And there are plenty of people
> who do. There are many
> things we learn in life that are not written, but
> they are still important.
> Sometimes we learn them by playing in the sandbox
> with others.
> > When I say I could not give justice to them in
> this forum, I ment that. It
> took me years of living in the East to learn them
> and I am still learning.
> Here are some examples of Eastern traditions and
> cultural values that are
> not in writing; the highest ranking peer at a feast
> gets the honor of
> toasting the K&Q, then we go down the line to the
> next highest ranking peer
> for the toast to P&P, Cooks, etc. It is tradition
> for a peer to serve High
> Table whenever possible. Unlike some of the Western
> Kingdoms we do not bow
> infront of empty throwns of the Royalty. None of
> this is in writing, but
> these things are important to the identity of the
> East Kingdom.
> > As for the validity of my arguments in this case,
> whether you agree with
> them or not, I think I have made my points clear
> including those on Eastern
> tradition. I disagree that all of these things need
> to be written to have
> weight in the discussion. And just because no one
> took the time to tell you
> what they were, doesen't lessen their importance
> in this discussion, or make
> them unworthy of consideration. The point is that
> tradition and values are
> more then the written policies or laws of the Society
> or of the Kingdom, but
> they do have value.
> > Lawrence.
> > --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Taranach McLeod <Taranach@...
> <mailto:Taranach%40gmail.com> > wrote:
> > From: Taranach McLeod <Taranach@... <mailto:Taranach%40gmail.com> >
> > To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 3:30 AM
> > It is an egregious error to criticize or fault
> people for not
> > "knowing" what is not written, what is not communicated
> and what can
> > apparently not be explained.
> > If these "Values" and "Traditions" cannot be effectively
> passed along then
> > they cannot be used as an unassailable bludgeon
> in the defense of someones
> > point of argument. The very act of having to say
> "Everyone should just
> > that" is a more than adequate indictment that such
> traditions are NOT as
> > widespread and well known as may be supposed. It
> also lends itself to the
> > observation that the person may no longer have
> a truly valid argument to
> > support his cause and is resorting to a phrase
> that has no real meaning
> > justification.
> > Taranach
> > "Melior morior in nostrum pedis quam inservio in
> nostrum genua."
> > "Tradition without intelligence is not worth having"
> T.S. Elliot
> > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Joel Doner <jmdoner@...
> <mailto:jmdoner%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
> >> Fairfax:
> >> I am not mocking you when I say, I feel bad that
> after 15 years you have
> >> not seen what I am talking about. That you do
> not know the SCA I have
> >> experienced over these many years. We don't codify
> tradition and our
> >> values. We shouldn't have to because they are
> not laws. They are part of
> >> culture. I cannot give you all of these ideas
> or do justice to these
> >> concepts in a few sentences or in this forum.
> I will try to give an
> >> example.
> >> I was taught one of those unwritten truths is
> that Kingdoms were the
> >> and soul of the SCA. That each Kingdom is unique
> and should be allowed to
> >> express it's character in its own way. We as with
> other Kingdoms take
> >> in our culture. Eventhough Aethelmarc, Atlantia
> and Drachenwald all came
> >> from the East, each of them was allowed to create
> their own traditions,
> >> customs and policies rergardless of how we or
> the others Kingdoms felt.
> >> When each of these Kingdoms were created, there
> was never an idea that
> >> would have to keep any of the Eastern traditions
> they had when they were
> >> part of our Kingdom.
> >> I probably did not do justice to this idea, but
> I hope you get the
> >> gist.
> >> Lawrence
> >> --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Bob Davis <bob@...
> <mailto:bob%40reconstructinghistory.com> <bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>>
> >> wrote:
> >> From: Bob Davis <bob@...
> <mailto:bob%40reconstructinghistory.com> <bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>
> >> To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com>
> >> Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 7:22 AM
> >> Bob Davis wrote:
> >>>> I agree that it is no longer 1968, 1998 or even
> 2008. But, that does
> >>>> not mean we give up the ideas that are at the
> heart of our Society
> >>>> and Kingdom. Some truths, even unwritten truths
> transcend time.
> >>>> Perhaps that is why were are anachronists to
> begin with and try to
> >>>> preserve the best ideas from times long ago.
> I don't think my
> >>>> understanding or definition of what our society
> should be are no
> >>>> longer applicable as you suggested.
> >>> What ideas are these, then? Perhaps I'm too new
> (I've only been in the
> >>> East for 12 years, and in the SCA for 15), but
> I can't seem to find
> >> I'm seriously asking. It seems that every time
> a discussion comes up
> >> that involves increasing accountability for material
> culture someone
> >> pipes up with this argument.
> >> And yet I've never seen a codified answer. I've
> never even seen two
> >> people - who are arguing on the same side - coincide
> with what they
> >> consider those "truths" and "ideas" to be.
> >> Somebody help me out, here. What exactly are these
> truths? Why aren't
> >> Sincerely,
> >> Fairfax
> > ------------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > ------------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
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