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9618RE: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards

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  • Alissa Pyrich
    May 3, 2010
      And if I, as the local herald, tried to hand off the
      toast to the Crown to the King's Champion (currently
      unbelted), there'd be Peers, Counts and Dukes *and*
      my Baron and Baroness jumping down my throat within
      mere seconds.
       
      I submit that  custom that no one currently recalls
      is no longer the custom.
       
      Alys
       
       
       

      >
      > <EKSouth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   > > >

      > That is an interesting idea, but in my 20 years in
      > the East I have never
      > seen that done.
      >
      >
      >
      > Griffith
      >
      > From: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com [mailto:EKSouth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      > Albrecht
      > Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 2:53 PM
      > To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      > s a challenge.
      > If the champion isn't present, then it falls to the
      > senior peer present.
      >
      > Albrecht
      >
      > My understanding of the tradition
      >
      > Joel Doner wrote:
      > > Taranach:
      > >
      > > If I have slighted you by what I have said about
      > knowing Eastern
      > traditions, I apologize. If the Peers and older members
      > of our Kingdom have
      > not been communicating these traditions and cultural
      > values, then we have
      > failed, not you.
      > >
      > > Many of the traditions and values that are passed
      > down in the SCA are
      > through the many Teacher/Student relationships, ie
      > Knight/Squire,
      > Laurel/Apprentice, Don/Cadet, etc. Much of what I
      > have learned was from my
      > former Knight, my Pelican and thier peers.
      > >
      > > Some of what I learned was from standing in the
      > back of the common tent,
      > watching and listening to those who were here before
      > me. Sometimes, someone
      > would flat out tell me I made a fau paux and told
      > me according to tradition
      > what I should have been doing, or not been doing.
      > I learn things all the
      > time from others simply by talking to people who
      > have been here longer or
      > know more than me. And there are plenty of people
      > who do. There are many
      > things we learn in life that are not written, but
      > they are still important.
      > Sometimes we learn them by playing in the sandbox
      > with others.
      > >
      > > When I say I could not give justice to them in
      > this forum, I ment that. It
      > took me years of living in the East to learn them
      > and I am still learning.
      > Here are some examples of Eastern traditions and
      > cultural values that are
      > not in writing; the highest ranking peer at a feast
      > gets the honor of
      > toasting the K&Q, then we go down the line to the
      > next highest ranking peer
      > for the toast to P&P, Cooks, etc. It is tradition
      > for a peer to serve High
      > Table whenever possible. Unlike some of the Western
      > Kingdoms we do not bow
      > infront of empty throwns of the Royalty. None of
      > this is in writing, but
      > these things are important to the identity of the
      > East Kingdom.
      > >
      > > As for the validity of my arguments in this case,
      > whether you agree with
      > them or not, I think I have made my points clear
      > including those on Eastern
      > tradition. I disagree that all of these things need
      > to be written to have
      > weight in the discussion. And just because no one
      > took the time to tell you
      > what they were, doesen't lessen their importance
      > in this discussion, or make
      > them unworthy of consideration. The point is that
      > tradition and values are
      > more then the written policies or laws of the Society
      > or of the Kingdom, but
      > they do have value.
      > >
      > > Lawrence.
      > >
      > >
      > > --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Taranach McLeod <Taranach@...
      > <mailto:Taranach%40gmail.com> > wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > From: Taranach McLeod <Taranach@... <mailto:Taranach%40gmail.com> >
      >
      > > To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 3:30 AM
      > >
      > >
      > > It is an egregious error to criticize or fault
      > people for not
      > automatically
      > > "knowing" what is not written, what is not communicated
      > and what can
      > > apparently not be explained.
      > > If these "Values" and "Traditions" cannot be effectively
      > passed along then
      > > they cannot be used as an unassailable bludgeon
      > in the defense of someones
      > > point of argument. The very act of having to say
      > "Everyone should just
      > know
      > > that" is a more than adequate indictment that such
      > traditions are NOT as
      > > widespread and well known as may be supposed. It
      > also lends itself to the
      > > observation that the person may no longer have
      > a truly valid argument to
      > > support his cause and is resorting to a phrase
      > that has no real meaning
      > for
      > > justification.
      > >
      > > Taranach
      > > "Melior morior in nostrum pedis quam inservio in
      > nostrum genua."
      > > "Tradition without intelligence is not worth having"
      > T.S. Elliot
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Joel Doner <jmdoner@...
      > <mailto:jmdoner%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >> Fairfax:
      > >>
      > >> I am not mocking you when I say, I feel bad that
      > after 15 years you have
      > >> not seen what I am talking about. That you do
      > not know the SCA I have
      > >> experienced over these many years. We don't codify
      > tradition and our
      > >> values. We shouldn't have to because they are
      > not laws. They are part of
      > our
      > >> culture. I cannot give you all of these ideas
      > or do justice to these
      > >> concepts in a few sentences or in this forum.
      > I will try to give an
      > >> example.
      > >>
      > >> I was taught one of those unwritten truths is
      > that Kingdoms were the
      > heart
      > >> and soul of the SCA. That each Kingdom is unique
      > and should be allowed to
      > >> express it's character in its own way. We as with
      > other Kingdoms take
      > pride
      > >> in our culture. Eventhough Aethelmarc, Atlantia
      > and Drachenwald all came
      > >> from the East, each of them was allowed to create
      > their own traditions,
      > >> customs and policies rergardless of how we or
      > the others Kingdoms felt.
      > >> When each of these Kingdoms were created, there
      > was never an idea that
      > they
      > >> would have to keep any of the Eastern traditions
      > they had when they were
      > >> part of our Kingdom.
      > >>
      > >> I probably did not do justice to this idea, but
      > I hope you get the
      > general
      > >> gist.
      > >>
      > >> Lawrence
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Bob Davis <bob@...
      > <mailto:bob%40reconstructinghistory.com> <bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>>
      > >> wrote:
      > >>
      > >> From: Bob Davis <bob@...
      > <mailto:bob%40reconstructinghistory.com> <bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>
      > >>
      >
      > >> To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com>
      > >> Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 7:22 AM
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> Bob Davis wrote:
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>>> I agree that it is no longer 1968, 1998 or even
      > 2008. But, that does
      > >>>> not mean we give up the ideas that are at the
      > heart of our Society
      > >>>> and Kingdom. Some truths, even unwritten truths
      > transcend time.
      > >>>> Perhaps that is why were are anachronists to
      > begin with and try to
      > >>>> preserve the best ideas from times long ago.
      > I don't think my
      > >>>> understanding or definition of what our society
      > should be are no
      > >>>> longer applicable as you suggested.
      > >>>>
      > >>> What ideas are these, then? Perhaps I'm too new
      > (I've only been in the
      > >>> East for 12 years, and in the SCA for 15), but
      > I can't seem to find
      > them.
      > >>>
      >
      > >>
      > >> I'm seriously asking. It seems that every time
      > a discussion comes up
      > >> that involves increasing accountability for material
      > culture someone
      > >> pipes up with this argument.
      > >>
      > >> And yet I've never seen a codified answer. I've
      > never even seen two
      > >> people - who are arguing on the same side - coincide
      > with what they
      > >> consider those "truths" and "ideas" to be.
      > >>
      > >> Somebody help me out, here. What exactly are these
      > truths? Why aren't
      >
      > >>
      > >> Sincerely,
      > >>
      > >> Fairfax
      > >>
      >
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
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      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
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      > >
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      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
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