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9613Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards

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  • Joel Doner
    May 3, 2010
      If I have slighted you by what I have said about knowing Eastern traditions, I apologize. If the Peers and older members of our Kingdom have not been communicating these traditions and cultural values, then we have failed, not you.
      Many of the traditions and values that are passed down in the SCA are through the many Teacher/Student relationships, ie Knight/Squire, Laurel/Apprentice, Don/Cadet, etc. Much of what I have learned was from my former Knight, my Pelican and thier peers.
      Some of what I learned was from standing in the back of the common tent, watching and listening to those who were here before me. Sometimes, someone would flat out tell me I made a fau paux and told me according to tradition what I should have been doing, or not been doing. I learn things all the time from others simply by talking to people who have been here longer or know more than me.  And there are plenty of people who do.  There are many things we learn in life that are not written, but they are still important. Sometimes we learn them by playing in the sandbox with others.
      When I say I could not give justice to them in this forum, I ment that. It took me years of living in the East to learn them and I am still learning. Here are some examples of Eastern traditions and cultural values that are not in writing;  the highest ranking peer at a feast gets the honor of toasting the K&Q, then we go down the line to the next highest ranking peer for the toast to P&P, Cooks, etc. It is tradition for a peer to serve High Table whenever possible. Unlike some of the Western Kingdoms we do not bow infront of empty throwns of the Royalty.  None of this is in writing, but these things are important to the identity of the East Kingdom. 
      As for the validity of my arguments in this case, whether you agree with them or not, I think I have made my points clear including those on Eastern tradition. I disagree that all of these things need to be written to have weight in the discussion.  And just because no one took the time to tell you what they were, doesen't lessen their importance in this discussion, or make them unworthy of consideration.  The point is that tradition and values are more then the written policies or laws of the Society or of the Kingdom, but they do have value. 

      --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Taranach McLeod <Taranach@...> wrote:

      From: Taranach McLeod <Taranach@...>
      Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
      To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 3:30 AM

      It is an egregious error to criticize or fault people for not automatically
      "knowing" what is not written, what is not communicated and what can
      apparently not be explained.
      If these "Values" and "Traditions" cannot be effectively passed along then
      they cannot be used as an unassailable bludgeon in the defense of someones
      point of argument. The very act of having to say "Everyone should just know
      that" is a more than adequate indictment that such traditions are NOT as
      widespread and well known as may be supposed. It also lends itself to the
      observation that the person may no longer have a truly valid argument to
      support his cause and is resorting to a phrase that has no real meaning for

      "Melior morior in nostrum pedis quam inservio in nostrum genua."
      "Tradition without intelligence is not worth having" T.S. Elliot

      On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Joel Doner <jmdoner@...> wrote:

      > Fairfax:
      > I am not mocking you when I say, I feel bad that after 15 years you have
      > not seen what I am talking about. That you do not know the SCA I have
      > experienced over these many years.  We don't codify tradition and our
      > values. We shouldn't have to because they are not laws. They are part of our
      > culture. I cannot give you all of these ideas or do justice to these
      > concepts in a few sentences or in this forum.  I will try to give an
      > example.
      > I was taught one of those unwritten truths is that Kingdoms were the heart
      > and soul of the SCA. That each Kingdom is unique and should be allowed to
      > express it's character in its own way. We as with other Kingdoms take pride
      > in our culture. Eventhough Aethelmarc, Atlantia and Drachenwald all came
      > from the East, each of them was allowed to create their own traditions,
      > customs and policies rergardless of how we or the others Kingdoms felt.
      > When each of these Kingdoms were created, there was never an idea that they
      > would have to keep any of the Eastern traditions they had when they were
      > part of our Kingdom.
      > I probably did not do justice to this idea, but I hope you get the general
      > gist.
      > Lawrence
      > --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Bob Davis <bob@...<bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>>
      > wrote:
      > From: Bob Davis <bob@...<bob%40reconstructinghistory.com>
      > >
      > Subject: Re: [EKSouth] Changes to the Amror Standards
      > To: EKSouth@yahoogroups.com <EKSouth%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 7:22 AM
      > Bob Davis wrote:
      > >>I agree that it is no longer 1968, 1998 or even 2008. But, that does
      > >>not mean we give up the ideas that are at the heart of our Society
      > >>and Kingdom. Some truths, even unwritten truths transcend time.
      > >>Perhaps that is why were are anachronists to begin with and try to
      > >>preserve the best ideas from times long ago. I don't think my
      > >>understanding or definition of what our society should be are no
      > >>longer applicable as you suggested.
      > >
      > >
      > > What ideas are these, then? Perhaps I'm too new (I've only been in the
      > > East for 12 years, and in the SCA for 15), but I can't seem to find them.
      > I forgot to expand upon this before clicking "Send".
      > I'm seriously asking. It seems that every time a discussion comes up
      > that involves increasing accountability for material culture someone
      > pipes up with this argument.
      > And yet I've never seen a codified answer. I've never even seen two
      > people - who are arguing on the same side - coincide with what they
      > consider those "truths" and "ideas" to be.
      > Somebody help me out, here. What exactly are these truths? Why aren't
      > they codified, or at least more readily available?
      > Sincerely,
      > Fairfax
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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