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Re: EMS and fist aid working together

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  • Streonwold Wulfesbana (mka Steve Benetti)
    ... cuff? And spell it correctly? sphygmomanometer ... and the one I use on myself at home is digital, bulletproof, and way more accurate than anybody needs.
    Message 1 of 24 , Dec 4, 2006
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      --- In E-Chir@yahoogroups.com, KIM MCAULEY <viscountessk@...> wrote:

      > Ok, be honest and don't Google... who can say the real name of a BP
      cuff? And spell it correctly?

      sphygmomanometer

      ... and the one I use on myself at home is digital, bulletproof, and
      way more accurate than anybody needs.

      But, in 18 years with the Patrol, I've never, ever been trained in the
      use of a sphygmo, and probably never will. We consider it useful for
      advanced diagnosis, which is beyond the scope of the care we provide.
      Vitals are:
      Airway (patent, partially obstructed, noisy, obstructed, etc)
      Breathing (regular, irregular, ragged, etc.)
      Pulse (2 locations present/absent, count, strength, condition, etc.)
      Level of Consciousness (Glasgow scale)
      Skin (colour, condition, temperature, etc.)
      Pupil Response (equal/unequal dilation/response, etc.)

      Changes in these co-indicate changes in BP (and other things).

      Our training is directed at cold weather applications, where the
      rubber of a cuff may become brittle, crack, be unreliable. The above
      stuff is reliable no matter the temperature.
    • S. Rabinovitch
      sphygnomometer TSivia (who always wows them in doctors offices with that) Ok, be honest and don t Google... who can say the real name of a BP cuff? And
      Message 2 of 24 , Dec 4, 2006
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        "sphygnomometer"
        TSivia (who always wows them in doctors' offices with that)
         
         

        Ok, be honest and don't Google... who can say the real name of a BP cuff? And spell it correctly?
        Kaellyn
        .

      • Kim
        Really? Care to share the make and model? Kaellyn ... From: Streonwold Wulfesbana (mka Steve Benetti) To:
        Message 3 of 24 , Dec 4, 2006
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          Really? Care to share the make and model?

          Kaellyn

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Streonwold Wulfesbana (mka Steve Benetti)" <streonwold@...>
          To: <E-Chir@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 12:51 PM
          Subject: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together


          > --- In E-Chir@yahoogroups.com, KIM MCAULEY <viscountessk@...> wrote:
          >
          >> Ok, be honest and don't Google... who can say the real name of a BP
          > cuff? And spell it correctly?
          >
          > sphygmomanometer
          >
          > ... and the one I use on myself at home is digital, bulletproof, and
          > way more accurate than anybody needs.
          >
          > But, in 18 years with the Patrol, I've never, ever been trained in the
          > use of a sphygmo, and probably never will. We consider it useful for
          > advanced diagnosis, which is beyond the scope of the care we provide.
          > Vitals are:
          > Airway (patent, partially obstructed, noisy, obstructed, etc)
          > Breathing (regular, irregular, ragged, etc.)
          > Pulse (2 locations present/absent, count, strength, condition, etc.)
          > Level of Consciousness (Glasgow scale)
          > Skin (colour, condition, temperature, etc.)
          > Pupil Response (equal/unequal dilation/response, etc.)
          >
          > Changes in these co-indicate changes in BP (and other things).
          >
          > Our training is directed at cold weather applications, where the
          > rubber of a cuff may become brittle, crack, be unreliable. The above
          > stuff is reliable no matter the temperature.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Streonwold Wulfesbana (mka Steve Benetti)
          ... Sure, it s a LifeSource UA-704VL Manual model. It s small, cheap and only takes 1 AA battery. BP Accuracy is claimed to be plus or minus 3 mm Hg or 2%
          Message 4 of 24 , Dec 4, 2006
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            --- In E-Chir@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <viscountessk@...> wrote:
            >
            > Really? Care to share the make and model?
            >

            Sure, it's a LifeSource UA-704VL Manual model.

            It's small, cheap and only takes 1 AA battery.

            BP Accuracy is claimed to be plus or minus 3 mm Hg or 2% whichever is
            greater.
            Pulse Accuracy is claimed to be plus or minus 5%

            Drawback: can't be used in extreme cold/heat. It's operating range
            is 50F to 104F, <85% humidity

            It's from A & D Medical in Milpitas, California, but I bought it at
            Shoppers Drug Mart.
          • MaryCatharine
            With the new modalities, we no longer teach the lay person to take a pulse , anywhere, period... We are to only teaching/recerting EMS to take pulses ...
            Message 5 of 24 , Dec 6, 2006
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              With the new modalities, we no longer teach the
              "lay person" to take a "pulse", anywhere, period...
              We are to only teaching/recerting EMS to "take pulses "...
               
              Have fun with this one,
               
               
              MaryCatharine
              ...."Of course he has a knife. He always has knives.
              We all have knives.  It's 1183 and we're all barbarians."

              Katharine Hepburn (1907 - 2003) As: Eleanor of  Aquitaine.
              The Lion in Winter. 1968
              -------Original Message-------
               
              Date: 12/05/06 14:11:42
              Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together
               

              All good points, however as a first responder you still don't need the BP cuff. You can take a carotid pulse and a distal pulse. If you do them at the same time, they should both have the same rate and rhythm. If they don't there's a problem. If you can find one and not the other, there's a problem.  These are the 2 major pulse points most first aiders use.  Finding a podieital pulse is tricky and finding a femoral pulse is usually only done as a drastic measure.  Both carotid and distal pulse tell you a rough approximation of the systolic pulse.
               
              So, taking vitals yes. Change in pulse or a difference between carotid and distal pulse for rate rhythm or strength tell you if your patient is stable, improving, deteriorating and are (along with pupil response and respiration rate, skin colour and condition and level of consciousness) are all things you can relay to EMS. They don't require a BP cuff or stethoscope. I'm with the ski patrol, I know this.
               
              Seonag
              -----Original Message-----
              From: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com [mailto:E-Chir@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of KIM MCAULEY
              Sent: December 4, 2006 10:21 AM
              To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com
              Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together



              You are very correct in all those assessments Streonwald. However, as a person who has to call 911 more than most, I can tell you that St. John does suggest that taking a full set of vitals is a good thing. Including BP. However, and this is in big red letters, you do this only when you have done everything else on the list of things to do and while still waiting for EMS to arrive, cause you called them right at the beginning. Taking vitals sure beats twiddling your thumbs?
               
              In the case of BP, there are certain things that a *changing* blood pressure can tell EMS and the hospital. If you can, get the baseline vitals so they have more information to work with.
               
              Curious? Google Cushing's Triad for more information. ::grins:: Who wants to do a report for the class on it?
               
              Kaellyn
               
               
               
              >>>>>>>>>>>>


              I agree.  As a Ski Patroller of 18 years experience (including over
              ten years as an instructor), I have never needed, nor taken a BP
              reading.  If I don't find a pulse anywhere distal to an injury - it's
              a load and go.  If I don't find a peripheral pulse - it's a load and
              go.  If I find an abnormal (ie. unexpected) rate, or strength, or an
              unusual rhythm in any pulse - it's probably load and go.  A BP cuff,
              or a stethoscope won't help me decide.

              Basically, any unusual circulatory function requires care that I can't
              provide (ie. beyond blankets, O2, monitor, transport) and my patient
              needs to go to the hospital, ASAP.




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            • Benetti,Sandy [Ontario]
              Who is we St. John s, Red Cross, someone else? Any one with CPR training gets taught how to take a pulse. I don t know if it s mandatory, but at Pennsic
              Message 6 of 24 , Dec 6, 2006
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                Message
                Who is "we" St. John's, Red Cross, someone else? Any one with CPR training gets taught how to take a pulse.  I don't know if it's mandatory, but at Pennsic they asked for copies of my CPR certs as well as my first aid ones.
                 
                S.
                -----Original Message-----
                From: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com [mailto:E-Chir@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of MaryCatharine
                Sent: December 6, 2006 8:20 AM
                To: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together

                With the new modalities, we no longer teach the
                "lay person" to take a "pulse", anywhere, period...
                We are to only teaching/recerting EMS to "take pulses "...
                 
                Have fun with this one,
                 
                 
                MaryCatharine
                ...."Of course he has a knife. He always has knives.
                We all have knives.  It's 1183 and we're all barbarians."

                Katharine Hepburn (1907 - 2003) As: Eleanor of  Aquitaine.
                The Lion in Winter. 1968
                -------Original Message----- --
                 
                Date: 12/05/06 14:11:42
                Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together
                 

                All good points, however as a first responder you still don't need the BP cuff. You can take a carotid pulse and a distal pulse. If you do them at the same time, they should both have the same rate and rhythm. If they don't there's a problem. If you can find one and not the other, there's a problem.  These are the 2 major pulse points most first aiders use.  Finding a podieital pulse is tricky and finding a femoral pulse is usually only done as a drastic measure.  Both carotid and distal pulse tell you a rough approximation of the systolic pulse.
                 
                So, taking vitals yes. Change in pulse or a difference between carotid and distal pulse for rate rhythm or strength tell you if your patient is stable, improving, deteriorating and are (along with pupil response and respiration rate, skin colour and condition and level of consciousness) are all things you can relay to EMS. They don't require a BP cuff or stethoscope. I'm with the ski patrol, I know this.
                 
                Seonag
                -----Original Message-----
                From: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com [mailto:E-Chir@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of KIM MCAULEY
                Sent: December 4, 2006 10:21 AM
                To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com
                Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together



                You are very correct in all those assessments Streonwald. However, as a person who has to call 911 more than most, I can tell you that St. John does suggest that taking a full set of vitals is a good thing. Including BP. However, and this is in big red letters, you do this only when you have done everything else on the list of things to do and while still waiting for EMS to arrive, cause you called them right at the beginning. Taking vitals sure beats twiddling your thumbs?
                 
                In the case of BP, there are certain things that a *changing* blood pressure can tell EMS and the hospital. If you can, get the baseline vitals so they have more information to work with.
                 
                Curious? Google Cushing's Triad for more information. ::grins:: Who wants to do a report for the class on it?
                 
                Kaellyn
                 
                 
                 
                >>>>>>>>>>>>


                I agree.  As a Ski Patroller of 18 years experience (including over
                ten years as an instructor), I have never needed, nor taken a BP
                reading.  If I don't find a pulse anywhere distal to an injury - it's
                a load and go.  If I don't find a peripheral pulse - it's a load and
                go.  If I find an abnormal (ie. unexpected) rate, or strength, or an
                unusual rhythm in any pulse - it's probably load and go.  A BP cuff,
                or a stethoscope won't help me decide.

                Basically, any unusual circulatory function requires care that I can't
                provide (ie. beyond blankets, O2, monitor, transport) and my patient
                needs to go to the hospital, ASAP.




                Yahoo! Groups Links

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              • Ninka
                The new Heart and Stroke guidelines (which govern St. John s, Red Cross and all other first aid training providers) no longer teach pulse checks to the lay
                Message 7 of 24 , Dec 6, 2006
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                  The new Heart and Stroke guidelines (which govern St. John's, Red Cross and all other first aid training providers) no longer teach pulse checks to the lay provider. In fact, there is no longer a check for signs of circulation of any type. If you have to breathe for a patient, then you immediately start CPR. These new standards came into effect in either September or October of this year.
                   
                  Xristina


                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: "Benetti,Sandy [Ontario]" <sandy.benetti@...>
                  To: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2006 8:53:16 AM
                  Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together

                  Who is "we" St. John's, Red Cross, someone else? Any one with CPR training gets taught how to take a pulse.  I don't know if it's mandatory, but at Pennsic they asked for copies of my CPR certs as well as my first aid ones.
                   
                  S.
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com [mailto:E-Chir@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of MaryCatharine
                  Sent: December 6, 2006 8:20 AM
                  To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together

                  With the new modalities, we no longer teach the
                  "lay person" to take a "pulse", anywhere, period...
                  We are to only teaching/recerting EMS to "take pulses "...
                   
                  Have fun with this one,
                   
                   
                  MaryCatharine
                  ...."Of course he has a knife. He always has knives.
                  We all have knives.  It's 1183 and we're all barbarians."

                  Katharine Hepburn (1907 - 2003) As: Eleanor of  Aquitaine.
                  The Lion in Winter. 1968
                  -------Original Message----- --
                   
                  Date: 12/05/06 14:11:42
                  Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together
                   

                  All good points, however as a first responder you still don't need the BP cuff. You can take a carotid pulse and a distal pulse. If you do them at the same time, they should both have the same rate and rhythm. If they don't there's a problem. If you can find one and not the other, there's a problem.  These are the 2 major pulse points most first aiders use.  Finding a podieital pulse is tricky and finding a femoral pulse is usually only done as a drastic measure.  Both carotid and distal pulse tell you a rough approximation of the systolic pulse.
                   
                  So, taking vitals yes. Change in pulse or a difference between carotid and distal pulse for rate rhythm or strength tell you if your patient is stable, improving, deteriorating and are (along with pupil response and respiration rate, skin colour and condition and level of consciousness) are all things you can relay to EMS. They don't require a BP cuff or stethoscope. I'm with the ski patrol, I know this.
                   
                  Seonag
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com [mailto:E-Chir@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of KIM MCAULEY
                  Sent: December 4, 2006 10:21 AM
                  To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together



                  You are very correct in all those assessments Streonwald. However, as a person who has to call 911 more than most, I can tell you that St. John does suggest that taking a full set of vitals is a good thing. Including BP. However, and this is in big red letters, you do this only when you have done everything else on the list of things to do and while still waiting for EMS to arrive, cause you called them right at the beginning. Taking vitals sure beats twiddling your thumbs?
                   
                  In the case of BP, there are certain things that a *changing* blood pressure can tell EMS and the hospital. If you can, get the baseline vitals so they have more information to work with.
                   
                  Curious? Google Cushing's Triad for more information. ::grins:: Who wants to do a report for the class on it?
                   
                  Kaellyn
                   
                   
                   
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>


                  I agree.  As a Ski Patroller of 18 years experience (including over
                  ten years as an instructor), I have never needed, nor taken a BP
                  reading.  If I don't find a pulse anywhere distal to an injury - it's
                  a load and go.  If I don't find a peripheral pulse - it's a load and
                  go.  If I find an abnormal (ie. unexpected) rate, or strength, or an
                  unusual rhythm in any pulse - it's probably load and go.  A BP cuff,
                  or a stethoscope won't help me decide.

                  Basically, any unusual circulatory function requires care that I can't
                  provide (ie. beyond blankets, O2, monitor, transport) and my patient
                  needs to go to the hospital, ASAP.




                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/E-Chir/

                  <*> Your email settings:
                      Individual Email | Traditional

                  <*> To change settings online go to:
                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/E-Chir/ join
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                  Letter Made: January 6, 2005
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                • Benetti,Sandy [Ontario]
                  Thanks for the update. So, what about the first aid side (St. Johns and Red Cross) do they not teach that any more either? Seonag ... From:
                  Message 8 of 24 , Dec 6, 2006
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                    Message
                    Thanks for the update.  So, what about the first aid side (St. Johns and Red Cross) do they not teach that any more either?
                     
                    Seonag
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com [mailto:E-Chir@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ninka
                    Sent: December 6, 2006 1:26 PM
                    To: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together

                    The new Heart and Stroke guidelines (which govern St. John's, Red Cross and all other first aid training providers) no longer teach pulse checks to the lay provider. In fact, there is no longer a check for signs of circulation of any type. If you have to breathe for a patient, then you immediately start CPR. These new standards came into effect in either September or October of this year.
                     
                    Xristina


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: "Benetti,Sandy [Ontario]" <sandy.benetti@...>
                    To: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2006 8:53:16 AM
                    Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together

                    Who is "we" St. John's, Red Cross, someone else? Any one with CPR training gets taught how to take a pulse.  I don't know if it's mandatory, but at Pennsic they asked for copies of my CPR certs as well as my first aid ones.
                     
                    S.
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com [mailto:E-Chir@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of MaryCatharine
                    Sent: December 6, 2006 8:20 AM
                    To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together

                    With the new modalities, we no longer teach the
                    "lay person" to take a "pulse", anywhere, period...
                    We are to only teaching/recerting EMS to "take pulses "...
                     
                    Have fun with this one,
                     
                     
                    MaryCatharine
                    ...."Of course he has a knife. He always has knives.
                    We all have knives.  It's 1183 and we're all barbarians."

                    Katharine Hepburn (1907 - 2003) As: Eleanor of  Aquitaine.
                    The Lion in Winter. 1968
                    -------Original Message----- --
                     
                    Date: 12/05/06 14:11:42
                    Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together
                     

                    All good points, however as a first responder you still don't need the BP cuff. You can take a carotid pulse and a distal pulse. If you do them at the same time, they should both have the same rate and rhythm. If they don't there's a problem. If you can find one and not the other, there's a problem.  These are the 2 major pulse points most first aiders use.  Finding a podieital pulse is tricky and finding a femoral pulse is usually only done as a drastic measure.  Both carotid and distal pulse tell you a rough approximation of the systolic pulse.
                     
                    So, taking vitals yes. Change in pulse or a difference between carotid and distal pulse for rate rhythm or strength tell you if your patient is stable, improving, deteriorating and are (along with pupil response and respiration rate, skin colour and condition and level of consciousness) are all things you can relay to EMS. They don't require a BP cuff or stethoscope. I'm with the ski patrol, I know this.
                     
                    Seonag
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com [mailto:E-Chir@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of KIM MCAULEY
                    Sent: December 4, 2006 10:21 AM
                    To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together



                    You are very correct in all those assessments Streonwald. However, as a person who has to call 911 more than most, I can tell you that St. John does suggest that taking a full set of vitals is a good thing. Including BP. However, and this is in big red letters, you do this only when you have done everything else on the list of things to do and while still waiting for EMS to arrive, cause you called them right at the beginning. Taking vitals sure beats twiddling your thumbs?
                     
                    In the case of BP, there are certain things that a *changing* blood pressure can tell EMS and the hospital. If you can, get the baseline vitals so they have more information to work with.
                     
                    Curious? Google Cushing's Triad for more information. ::grins:: Who wants to do a report for the class on it?
                     
                    Kaellyn
                     
                     
                     
                    >>>>>>>>>>>>


                    I agree.  As a Ski Patroller of 18 years experience (including over
                    ten years as an instructor), I have never needed, nor taken a BP
                    reading.  If I don't find a pulse anywhere distal to an injury - it's
                    a load and go.  If I don't find a peripheral pulse - it's a load and
                    go.  If I find an abnormal (ie. unexpected) rate, or strength, or an
                    unusual rhythm in any pulse - it's probably load and go.  A BP cuff,
                    or a stethoscope won't help me decide.

                    Basically, any unusual circulatory function requires care that I can't
                    provide (ie. beyond blankets, O2, monitor, transport) and my patient
                    needs to go to the hospital, ASAP.




                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/E-Chir/

                    <*> Your email settings:
                        Individual Email | Traditional

                    <*> To change settings online go to:
                        http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/E-Chir/ join
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                    <*> To change settings via email:
                        mailto:E-Chir- digest@yahoogrou ps.com
                        mailto:E-Chir- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com

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                    Letter Made: January 6, 2005
                    Font Used: Harrington
                    For Personal Use Only! No Copyright Infringement Intended


                  • James D Sena
                    The further dumbing down of CPR. We had that in my ARC CPR class when I renewed this year. The given reason was In an emergency most people can t remember
                    Message 9 of 24 , Dec 6, 2006
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                         The further dumbing down of CPR.  We had that in my ARC CPR class when I renewed this year.  The given reason was "In an emergency most people can't remember how to check for a pulse, or even find their own".

                        I disagree with it, and I won't stop checking for a pulse myself.  Then again my original training was not "lay person".  For the first 10 years I had a CPR card it was either "CPR for the Professional Rescuer" or "CPR for Health Care Providers".  It is a much more educational program than "Standard CPR with AED".

                        And don't even get me started on the dumbing down of AEDs either.

                      Lord Brendan ap Llewelyn



                        Ninka wrote:
                      The new Heart and Stroke guidelines (which govern St. John's, Red Cross and all other first aid training providers) no longer teach pulse checks to the lay provider. In fact, there is no longer a check for signs of circulation of any type. If you have to breathe for a patient, then you immediately start CPR. These new standards came into effect in either September or October of this year.
                       
                      Xristina


                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: "Benetti,Sandy [Ontario]" <sandy.benetti@...>
                      To: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2006 8:53:16 AM
                      Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together

                      Who is "we" St. John's, Red Cross, someone else? Any one with CPR training gets taught how to take a pulse.  I don't know if it's mandatory, but at Pennsic they asked for copies of my CPR certs as well as my first aid ones.
                       
                      S.
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com [mailto:E-Chir@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of MaryCatharine
                      Sent: December 6, 2006 8:20 AM
                      To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together

                      With the new modalities, we no longer teach the
                      "lay person" to take a "pulse", anywhere, period...
                      We are to only teaching/recerting EMS to "take pulses "...
                       
                      Have fun with this one,
                       
                       
                      MaryCatharine
                      ...."Of course he has a knife. He always has knives.
                      We all have knives.  It's 1183 and we're all barbarians."

                      Katharine Hepburn (1907 - 2003) As: Eleanor of  Aquitaine.
                      The Lion in Winter. 1968
                      -------Original Message----- --
                       
                      Date: 12/05/06 14:11:42
                      Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together
                       

                      All good points, however as a first responder you still don't need the BP cuff. You can take a carotid pulse and a distal pulse. If you do them at the same time, they should both have the same rate and rhythm. If they don't there's a problem. If you can find one and not the other, there's a problem.  These are the 2 major pulse points most first aiders use.  Finding a podieital pulse is tricky and finding a femoral pulse is usually only done as a drastic measure.  Both carotid and distal pulse tell you a rough approximation of the systolic pulse.
                       
                      So, taking vitals yes. Change in pulse or a difference between carotid and distal pulse for rate rhythm or strength tell you if your patient is stable, improving, deteriorating and are (along with pupil response and respiration rate, skin colour and condition and level of consciousness) are all things you can relay to EMS. They don't require a BP cuff or stethoscope. I'm with the ski patrol, I know this.
                       
                      Seonag
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com [mailto:E-Chir@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of KIM MCAULEY
                      Sent: December 4, 2006 10:21 AM
                      To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together



                      You are very correct in all those assessments Streonwald. However, as a person who has to call 911 more than most, I can tell you that St. John does suggest that taking a full set of vitals is a good thing. Including BP. However, and this is in big red letters, you do this only when you have done everything else on the list of things to do and while still waiting for EMS to arrive, cause you called them right at the beginning. Taking vitals sure beats twiddling your thumbs?
                       
                      In the case of BP, there are certain things that a *changing* blood pressure can tell EMS and the hospital. If you can, get the baseline vitals so they have more information to work with.
                       
                      Curious? Google Cushing's Triad for more information. ::grins:: Who wants to do a report for the class on it?
                       
                      Kaellyn
                       
                       
                       
                      >>>>>>>>>>>>


                      I agree.  As a Ski Patroller of 18 years experience (including over
                      ten years as an instructor), I have never needed, nor taken a BP
                      reading.  If I don't find a pulse anywhere distal to an injury - it's
                      a load and go.  If I don't find a peripheral pulse - it's a load and
                      go.  If I find an abnormal (ie. unexpected) rate, or strength, or an
                      unusual rhythm in any pulse - it's probably load and go.  A BP cuff,
                      or a stethoscope won't help me decide.

                      Basically, any unusual circulatory function requires care that I can't
                      provide (ie. beyond blankets, O2, monitor, transport) and my patient
                      needs to go to the hospital, ASAP.




                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/E-Chir/

                      <*> Your email settings:
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                    • Benetti,Sandy [Ontario]
                      Hey maybe we can go medieval on them and resort to leaches and maggots (noting that still are both used in modern medicine and that in some cases maggots
                      Message 10 of 24 , Dec 6, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Message
                        Hey maybe we can go "medieval" on them and resort to leaches and maggots (noting that still are both used in modern medicine and that in some cases maggots work better and cleaning up a nasty wound than  a lot of modern antibiotics).
                         
                        Seonag :)
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com [mailto:E-Chir@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James D Sena
                        Sent: December 6, 2006 2:08 PM
                        To: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together

                           The further dumbing down of CPR.  We had that in my ARC CPR class when I renewed this year.  The given reason was "In an emergency most people can't remember how to check for a pulse, or even find their own".

                          I disagree with it, and I won't stop checking for a pulse myself.  Then again my original training was not "lay person".  For the first 10 years I had a CPR card it was either "CPR for the Professional Rescuer" or "CPR for Health Care Providers".  It is a much more educational program than "Standard CPR with AED".

                          And don't even get me started on the dumbing down of AEDs either.

                        Lord Brendan ap Llewelyn



                          Ninka wrote:
                        The new Heart and Stroke guidelines (which govern St. John's, Red Cross and all other first aid training providers) no longer teach pulse checks to the lay provider. In fact, there is no longer a check for signs of circulation of any type. If you have to breathe for a patient, then you immediately start CPR. These new standards came into effect in either September or October of this year.
                         
                        Xristina


                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: "Benetti,Sandy [Ontario]" <sandy.benetti@...>
                        To: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2006 8:53:16 AM
                        Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together

                        Who is "we" St. John's, Red Cross, someone else? Any one with CPR training gets taught how to take a pulse.  I don't know if it's mandatory, but at Pennsic they asked for copies of my CPR certs as well as my first aid ones.
                         
                        S.
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com [mailto:E-Chir@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of MaryCatharine
                        Sent: December 6, 2006 8:20 AM
                        To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com
                        Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together

                        With the new modalities, we no longer teach the
                        "lay person" to take a "pulse", anywhere, period...
                        We are to only teaching/recerting EMS to "take pulses "...
                         
                        Have fun with this one,
                         
                         
                        MaryCatharine
                        ...."Of course he has a knife. He always has knives.
                        We all have knives.  It's 1183 and we're all barbarians."

                        Katharine Hepburn (1907 - 2003) As: Eleanor of  Aquitaine.
                        The Lion in Winter. 1968
                        -------Original Message----- --
                         
                        Date: 12/05/06 14:11:42
                        Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together
                         

                        All good points, however as a first responder you still don't need the BP cuff. You can take a carotid pulse and a distal pulse. If you do them at the same time, they should both have the same rate and rhythm. If they don't there's a problem. If you can find one and not the other, there's a problem.  These are the 2 major pulse points most first aiders use.  Finding a podieital pulse is tricky and finding a femoral pulse is usually only done as a drastic measure.  Both carotid and distal pulse tell you a rough approximation of the systolic pulse.
                         
                        So, taking vitals yes. Change in pulse or a difference between carotid and distal pulse for rate rhythm or strength tell you if your patient is stable, improving, deteriorating and are (along with pupil response and respiration rate, skin colour and condition and level of consciousness) are all things you can relay to EMS. They don't require a BP cuff or stethoscope. I'm with the ski patrol, I know this.
                         
                        Seonag
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com [mailto:E-Chir@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of KIM MCAULEY
                        Sent: December 4, 2006 10:21 AM
                        To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com
                        Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together



                        You are very correct in all those assessments Streonwald. However, as a person who has to call 911 more than most, I can tell you that St. John does suggest that taking a full set of vitals is a good thing. Including BP. However, and this is in big red letters, you do this only when you have done everything else on the list of things to do and while still waiting for EMS to arrive, cause you called them right at the beginning. Taking vitals sure beats twiddling your thumbs?
                         
                        In the case of BP, there are certain things that a *changing* blood pressure can tell EMS and the hospital. If you can, get the baseline vitals so they have more information to work with.
                         
                        Curious? Google Cushing's Triad for more information. ::grins:: Who wants to do a report for the class on it?
                         
                        Kaellyn
                         
                         
                         
                        >>>>>>>>>>>>


                        I agree.  As a Ski Patroller of 18 years experience (including over
                        ten years as an instructor), I have never needed, nor taken a BP
                        reading.  If I don't find a pulse anywhere distal to an injury - it's
                        a load and go.  If I don't find a peripheral pulse - it's a load and
                        go.  If I find an abnormal (ie. unexpected) rate, or strength, or an
                        unusual rhythm in any pulse - it's probably load and go.  A BP cuff,
                        or a stethoscope won't help me decide.

                        Basically, any unusual circulatory function requires care that I can't
                        provide (ie. beyond blankets, O2, monitor, transport) and my patient
                        needs to go to the hospital, ASAP.




                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                        <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/E-Chir/

                        <*> Your email settings:
                            Individual Email | Traditional

                        <*> To change settings online go to:
                            http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/E-Chir/ join
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                            E-Chir-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com

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                        Click Here To Receive My New Creations In Your Inbox!
                        Letter Made: January 6, 2005
                        Font Used: Harrington
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                      • J Corso
                        While leeches and maggots are used - it must be remembered that maggots eat dead flesh only - if infected - antibiotics are still used - I myself have applied
                        Message 11 of 24 , Dec 6, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          While leeches and maggots are used - it must be remembered that maggots eat
                          dead flesh only - if infected - antibiotics are still used - I myself have
                          applied leeches and maggots to flesh in my work! Not really nice to do - but
                          it was cool in a clinical way - the leech story isnt really gross and i can
                          share if wanted but the maggot story is a little graphic - still willing to
                          share but email firect and i will save the group the grossness!! LOL
                          Giovanni Ferraius (aka John)


                          >From: "Benetti,Sandy [Ontario]" <sandy.benetti@...>
                          >Reply-To: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: <E-Chir@yahoogroups.com>
                          >Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together
                          >Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:18:31 -0500
                          >
                          >Hey maybe we can go "medieval" on them and resort to leaches and maggots
                          >(noting that still are both used in modern medicine and that in some
                          >cases maggots work better and cleaning up a nasty wound than a lot of
                          >modern antibiotics).
                          >
                          >Seonag :)
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com [mailto:E-Chir@yahoogroups.com] On
                          >Behalf Of James D Sena
                          > Sent: December 6, 2006 2:08 PM
                          > To: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together
                          >
                          >
                          > The further dumbing down of CPR. We had that in my ARC CPR
                          >class when I renewed this year. The given reason was "In an emergency
                          >most people can't remember how to check for a pulse, or even find their
                          >own".
                          >
                          > I disagree with it, and I won't stop checking for a pulse
                          >myself. Then again my original training was not "lay person". For the
                          >first 10 years I had a CPR card it was either "CPR for the Professional
                          >Rescuer" or "CPR for Health Care Providers". It is a much more
                          >educational program than "Standard CPR with AED".
                          >
                          > And don't even get me started on the dumbing down of AEDs
                          >either.
                          >
                          > Lord Brendan ap Llewelyn
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Ninka wrote:
                          >
                          > The new Heart and Stroke guidelines (which govern St.
                          >John's, Red Cross and all other first aid training providers) no longer
                          >teach pulse checks to the lay provider. In fact, there is no longer a
                          >check for signs of circulation of any type. If you have to breathe for a
                          >patient, then you immediately start CPR. These new standards came into
                          >effect in either September or October of this year.
                          >
                          > Xristina
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message ----
                          > From: "Benetti,Sandy [Ontario]" <sandy.benetti@...>
                          ><mailto:sandy.benetti@...>
                          > To: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2006 8:53:16 AM
                          > Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working
                          >together
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Who is "we" St. John's, Red Cross, someone else? Any one
                          >with CPR training gets taught how to take a pulse. I don't know if it's
                          >mandatory, but at Pennsic they asked for copies of my CPR certs as well
                          >as my first aid ones.
                          >
                          > S.
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com [mailto:E-Chir@
                          >yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of MaryCatharine
                          > Sent: December 6, 2006 8:20 AM
                          > To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com
                          > Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid
                          >working together
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >With the new modalities, we no longer teach the
                          >"lay person" to take a "pulse", anywhere, period...
                          >We are to only teaching/recerting EMS to "take pulses "...
                          >
                          >Have fun with this one,
                          >
                          >
                          >MaryCatharine
                          >...."Of course he has a knife. He always has knives.
                          >We all have knives. It's 1183 and we're all barbarians."
                          >
                          >Katharine Hepburn (1907 - 2003) As: Eleanor of Aquitaine.
                          >The Lion in Winter. 1968
                          >-------Original Message----- --
                          >
                          >From: Benetti,Sandy [Ontario] <mailto:sandy.benetti@...>
                          >Date: 12/05/06 14:11:42
                          >To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com <mailto:E-Chir@yahoogroups.com>
                          >Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together
                          >
                          >
                          >All good points, however as a first responder you still don't need the
                          >BP cuff. You can take a carotid pulse and a distal pulse. If you do them
                          >at the same time, they should both have the same rate and rhythm. If
                          >they don't there's a problem. If you can find one and not the other,
                          >there's a problem. These are the 2 major pulse points most first aiders
                          >use. Finding a podieital pulse is tricky and finding a femoral pulse is
                          >usually only done as a drastic measure. Both carotid and distal pulse
                          >tell you a rough approximation of the systolic pulse.
                          >
                          >So, taking vitals yes. Change in pulse or a difference between carotid
                          >and distal pulse for rate rhythm or strength tell you if your patient is
                          >stable, improving, deteriorating and are (along with pupil response and
                          >respiration rate, skin colour and condition and level of consciousness)
                          >are all things you can relay to EMS. They don't require a BP cuff or
                          >stethoscope. I'm with the ski patrol, I know this.
                          >
                          >Seonag
                          >-----Original Message-----
                          >From: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com [mailto:E-Chir@ yahoogroups. com] On
                          >Behalf Of KIM MCAULEY
                          >Sent: December 4, 2006 10:21 AM
                          >To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com
                          >Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >You are very correct in all those assessments Streonwald. However, as a
                          >person who has to call 911 more than most, I can tell you that St. John
                          >does suggest that taking a full set of vitals is a good thing. Including
                          >BP. However, and this is in big red letters, you do this only when you
                          >have done everything else on the list of things to do and while still
                          >waiting for EMS to arrive, cause you called them right at the beginning.
                          >Taking vitals sure beats twiddling your thumbs?
                          >
                          >In the case of BP, there are certain things that a *changing* blood
                          >pressure can tell EMS and the hospital. If you can, get the baseline
                          >vitals so they have more information to work with.
                          >
                          >Curious? Google Cushing's Triad for more information. ::grins:: Who
                          >wants to do a report for the class on it?
                          >
                          >Kaellyn
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > >>>>>>>>>>>>
                          >
                          >
                          >I agree. As a Ski Patroller of 18 years experience (including over
                          >ten years as an instructor), I have never needed, nor taken a BP
                          >reading. If I don't find a pulse anywhere distal to an injury - it's
                          >a load and go. If I don't find a peripheral pulse - it's a load and
                          >go. If I find an abnormal (ie. unexpected) rate, or strength, or an
                          >unusual rhythm in any pulse - it's probably load and go. A BP cuff,
                          >or a stethoscope won't help me decide.
                          >
                          >Basically, any unusual circulatory function requires care that I can't
                          >provide (ie. beyond blankets, O2, monitor, transport) and my patient
                          >needs to go to the hospital, ASAP.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          > (Yahoo! ID required)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > <http://www.sleepingangel.com/>
                          >Click Here <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/princess_silvia_incredimail/>
                          >To Receive My New Creations In Your Inbox!
                          >Letter Made: January 6, 2005
                          >Font Used: Harrington
                          >For Personal Use Only! No Copyright Infringement Intended
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
                          >
                          > No virus found in this incoming message.
                          > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                          > Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.15.6/568 -
                          >Release Date: 12/4/2006 3:20 PM
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                        • MaryCatharine
                          That was the whole point... The we IS everyone... It is not the new Heart and Stroke guidelines . It is the new guidelines for cardiopulmonary resuscitation
                          Message 12 of 24 , Dec 6, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            That was the whole point...
                            The "we" IS everyone...
                             
                            It is not the "new Heart and Stroke guidelines".
                             
                            It is the new guidelines for cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) and first aid were released recently by ILCOR, the International Liaison Committee on Resuscitation, in 2006, who are  the body that reviews CPR and first aid every five years.
                             
                            ( This is why everyone from Red Cross, to St. John's, and beyond update the modalities, every five years...)
                             
                            The most important thing for Canadians to know right now is that the CPR they've been trained to perform is not “wrong.” The new guidelines reflect current scientific research and are a natural evolution of CPR since its introduction to the general public over 20 years ago.  The new recommended guidelines are focussed on simplifying CPR even further, making it even easier to learn.
                             
                            I teach how to take the carotid, brachial pulse, radial pulse, and femoral pulses...
                            I do not have to, but I do.
                             
                            I could show the Abdominal aorta,  (Very thin individuals may be able to note a slight pulsation beneath the stomach when lying down in a relaxed position. This pulsation is caused by the abdominal aorta, the continuation of the aorta from the heart. At the level of the umbilicus (belly button), the aorta splits into the left and right common iliac arteries which deliver blood to the legs.)
                            Or the Popliteal artery, (This artery lies behind the knee. Bend your knee slightly and feel in the soft area behind the knee.)
                             
                            I do not normally teach this to lay people because it confuses them, especially if it their first time learning First-Aid & CPR/AED.  I have been instructing for 17 years.
                             
                            Yours in health and safety,
                             
                            MariaKatharina
                            ...."Of course he has a knife. He always has knives.
                            We all have knives.  It's 1183 and we're all barbarians."

                            Katharine Hepburn (1907 - 2003) As: Eleanor of  Aquitaine.
                            The Lion in Winter. 1968
                            -------Original Message-------
                             
                            Date: 12/6/2006 2:12:14 PM
                            Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together
                             

                            Thanks for the update.  So, what about the first aid side (St. Johns and Red Cross) do they not teach that any more either?
                             
                            Seonag
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com [mailto:E-Chir@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Ninka
                            Sent: December 6, 2006 1:26 PM
                            To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com
                            Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together

                            The new Heart and Stroke guidelines (which govern St. John's, Red Cross and all other first aid training providers) no longer teach pulse checks to the lay provider. In fact, there is no longer a check for signs of circulation of any type. If you have to breathe for a patient, then you immediately start CPR. These new standards came into effect in either September or October of this year.
                             
                            Xristina


                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: "Benetti,Sandy [Ontario]" <sandy.benetti@ ec.gc.ca>
                            To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com
                            Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2006 8:53:16 AM
                            Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together

                            Who is "we" St. John's, Red Cross, someone else? Any one with CPR training gets taught how to take a pulse.  I don't know if it's mandatory, but at Pennsic they asked for copies of my CPR certs as well as my first aid ones.
                             
                            S.
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com [mailto:E-Chir@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of MaryCatharine
                            Sent: December 6, 2006 8:20 AM
                            To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com
                            Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together

                            With the new modalities, we no longer teach the
                            "lay person" to take a "pulse", anywhere, period...
                            We are to only teaching/recerting EMS to "take pulses "...
                             
                            Have fun with this one,
                             
                             
                            MaryCatharine
                            ...."Of course he has a knife. He always has knives.
                            We all have knives.  It's 1183 and we're all barbarians."

                            Katharine Hepburn (1907 - 2003) As: Eleanor of  Aquitaine.
                            The Lion in Winter. 1968
                            -------Original Message----- --
                             
                            Date: 12/05/06 14:11:42
                            Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together
                             

                            All good points, however as a first responder you still don't need the BP cuff. You can take a carotid pulse and a distal pulse. If you do them at the same time, they should both have the same rate and rhythm. If they don't there's a problem. If you can find one and not the other, there's a problem.  These are the 2 major pulse points most first aiders use.  Finding a podieital pulse is tricky and finding a femoral pulse is usually only done as a drastic measure.  Both carotid and distal pulse tell you a rough approximation of the systolic pulse.
                             
                            So, taking vitals yes. Change in pulse or a difference between carotid and distal pulse for rate rhythm or strength tell you if your patient is stable, improving, deteriorating and are (along with pupil response and respiration rate, skin colour and condition and level of consciousness) are all things you can relay to EMS. They don't require a BP cuff or stethoscope. I'm with the ski patrol, I know this.
                             
                            Seonag
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com [mailto:E-Chir@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of KIM MCAULEY
                            Sent: December 4, 2006 10:21 AM
                            To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com
                            Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: EMS and fist aid working together



                            You are very correct in all those assessments Streonwald. However, as a person who has to call 911 more than most, I can tell you that St. John does suggest that taking a full set of vitals is a good thing. Including BP. However, and this is in big red letters, you do this only when you have done everything else on the list of things to do and while still waiting for EMS to arrive, cause you called them right at the beginning. Taking vitals sure beats twiddling your thumbs?
                             
                            In the case of BP, there are certain things that a *changing* blood pressure can tell EMS and the hospital. If you can, get the baseline vitals so they have more information to work with.
                             
                            Curious? Google Cushing's Triad for more information. ::grins:: Who wants to do a report for the class on it?
                             
                            Kaellyn
                             
                             
                             
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>


                            I agree.  As a Ski Patroller of 18 years experience (including over
                            ten years as an instructor), I have never needed, nor taken a BP
                            reading.  If I don't find a pulse anywhere distal to an injury - it's
                            a load and go.  If I don't find a peripheral pulse - it's a load and
                            go.  If I find an abnormal (ie. unexpected) rate, or strength, or an
                            unusual rhythm in any pulse - it's probably load and go.  A BP cuff,
                            or a stethoscope won't help me decide.

                            Basically, any unusual circulatory function requires care that I can't
                            provide (ie. beyond blankets, O2, monitor, transport) and my patient
                            needs to go to the hospital, ASAP.




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