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Re: Scenario One

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  • Ninka
    ... Excellent point. The chances are that this incident (and the majority of incidents we come across) are not that serious and do not require EMS
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 6, 2009
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      --- In E-Chir@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Crawley" <crawleys@...> wrote:

      > 1. things to be thinking about...notify someone to start searching
      > out a phone, an autocrat and possibly some backs up just in case
      > and have them send them to the range as soon as possible

      Excellent point. The chances are that this incident (and the majority
      of incidents we come across) are not that serious and do not require
      EMS intervention...but just in case this is a good thing to get
      started. If you were told right off the bat that the person had
      twisted thier ankle I might not be so quick to alert the autocrat (I
      suspect they would get pissed if we called them every time someone
      got a scratch). However since you were not given any information
      about the casualty condition and it was at an event activity that has
      the potential to be something quite serious I think someone finding
      the autocrat, phone and/or some back-up is a good idea.

      Does anyone have any ideas of how and when, we as chirugeon's should
      put such an action plan in place? An action plan being defined as a
      series of pre-planned events/groups of people to help make an
      emergency situation run as efficiently as possible. I usually teach
      an action plan as consisting of three people; person in charge
      (person actually doing the casualty care/first aid); call person
      (person making sure that 911 is called/alerting the autocrat); scene
      person (crowd control/EMS direction/etc). Any ideas on how this can
      be incorporated into our events? Would it be different for day events
      and large camping events?

      Xristina
    • tsivia@uottawa.ca
      ... put such an action plan in place? An action plan being defined as a series of pre-planned events/groups of people to help make an emergency situation run
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 6, 2009
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        Xristina wrote:
        > Does anyone have any ideas of how and when, we as chirugeon's should
        put such an action plan in place? An action plan being defined as a
        series of pre-planned events/groups of people to help make an
        emergency situation run as efficiently as possible. I usually teach
        an action plan as consisting of three people; person in charge
        (person actually doing the casualty care/first aid); call person
        (person making sure that 911 is called/alerting the autocrat); scene
        person (crowd control/EMS direction/etc). Any ideas on how this can
        be incorporated into our events? Would it be different for day events
        and large camping events?


        As we've been informed by Fursto at the Chi picnics, there are THREE
        distinct addresses for the site at which Trillies is held, for one thing.
        I'd suggest that it's prudent practice for there to be an EXACT street
        address at EVERY check-in in case one of our more elderly members suddenly
        has a heart attack...

        Maybe it's time to come up with a structured action plan for Ealdormere
        events? (which of course, other Kingdoms could use if they so choose...)
        WOuldn't hurt to train folks on how to guide EMS into a remote site, for
        instance. If you haven't worked a Pennsic or Estrella you've probably
        never run into that one...

        TSivia
      • Jackie Wyatt
        Maybe it s time to come up with a structured action plan for Ealdormere events? (which of course, other Kingdoms could use if they so choose...) WOuldn t hurt
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 6, 2009
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          "Maybe it's time to come up with a structured action plan for Ealdormere
          events? (which of course, other Kingdoms could use if they so choose...)
          WOuldn't hurt to train folks on how to guide EMS into a remote site, for
          instance. If you haven't worked a Pennsic or Estrella you've probably
          never run into that one... TSivia"

          I agree, with the added suggestion that either an FAQ or specifically-Ealdormerian handbook be created? I admit it's been a while since I've really thoroughly read the society one, but I do remember it being a bit vague about things due to having to cover the Knowne Worlde and it would be nice to have some clarifications expecially as they relate to mundane laws here in Ontario. As an example, I can't seem to find the instructions relating to contacting the Kingdom Chirurgeon within 24 hours of having to call an ambulance (though it's possible I missed it somewhere in there with my keyword searching- I didn't have the time to thoroughly read the manual).

          Medb
        • Keith Crawley
          On the subject of a Kingdom Plan, Way back in the days of Aisilines tenure as Kingdom Chirurgeon I was fairly new to the SCA but because of my professional as
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 6, 2009
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            On the subject of a Kingdom Plan, Way back in the days of Aisilines tenure as Kingdom Chirurgeon I was fairly new to the SCA but because of my professional as well as voluntary experiences (9-1-1 dispatcher, Red Cross Emergency Services Manager {sat on the committee that developed Halton Regions Emergency Response Plan}, Scouts Canada Emergency Services Provider) was very loosely involved as a chirurgeon. During this time Aisiline attended an SCA gathering (not sure if it was a Known World Chirurgeons meeting or something else) and out of this came ideas for Emergency Response planning for major events. While the details escape me at this time I do recall that all major War Events and several Kingdoms had them, were working on them or at least had looked into it. Aisiline asked me to have input into an Emergency plan for Ealdormere and particularly our larger camping type events. Once this plan was put together Aisiline presented it to the Privy Council of the day. Once again I do not know what the exact wording of their response was but the way it came down to us in common language was the Kingdom was not interested and their reasoning were based upon Plausible Deniability. They basically said, if we have an official or formal plan and it fails in some way we (Ealdormere or the SCA) could be held liable, however if there is no plan and we do what we are trained to do under standard first aid training protocols etc. the Kingdom cant be held liable for our failings. 
             
            I don't know if Aisiline still has any of the info or plans we worked on at the time but perhaps a re thinking of this issue and a better job of selling it to Privy Council may be due? I realize this was a "major emergency" type plan but perhaps incorporating smaller response planning as mentioned (3 people plan as mentioned etc.) into such an over all plan may work?
             
            Percival  
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 12:24 PM
            Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: Scenario One

            Xristina wrote:
            > Does anyone have any ideas of how and when, we as chirugeon's should
            put such an action plan in place? An action plan being defined as a
            series of pre-planned events/groups of people to help make an
            emergency situation run as efficiently as possible. I usually teach
            an action plan as consisting of three people; person in charge
            (person actually doing the casualty care/first aid); call person
            (person making sure that 911 is called/alerting the autocrat); scene
            person (crowd control/EMS direction/etc) . Any ideas on how this can
            be incorporated into our events? Would it be different for day events
            and large camping events?

            As we've been informed by Fursto at the Chi picnics, there are THREE
            distinct addresses for the site at which Trillies is held, for one thing.
            I'd suggest that it's prudent practice for there to be an EXACT street
            address at EVERY check-in in case one of our more elderly members suddenly
            has a heart attack...

            Maybe it's time to come up with a structured action plan for Ealdormere
            events? (which of course, other Kingdoms could use if they so choose...)
            WOuldn't hurt to train folks on how to guide EMS into a remote site, for
            instance. If you haven't worked a Pennsic or Estrella you've probably
            never run into that one...

            TSivia

          • Kim
            Perhaps it would be a good start to develop a ready sheet for autocrats. It could list things like the exact street address of the site and phone number,
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 6, 2009
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              Perhaps it would be a good start to develop a "ready" sheet for autocrats. It could list things like the exact street address of the site and phone number, locations of landlines, location of AED (if there is one on site), doors that an ambulance could access.
               
              Then it could be collected by the chirurgeon in charge or even multiples so that we all have the information.
               
              Kaellyn
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 3:53 PM
              Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: Scenario One

              On the subject of a Kingdom Plan, Way back in the days of Aisilines tenure as Kingdom Chirurgeon I was fairly new to the SCA but because of my professional as well as voluntary experiences (9-1-1 dispatcher, Red Cross Emergency Services Manager {sat on the committee that developed Halton Regions Emergency Response Plan}, Scouts Canada Emergency Services Provider) was very loosely involved as a chirurgeon. During this time Aisiline attended an SCA gathering (not sure if it was a Known World Chirurgeons meeting or something else) and out of this came ideas for Emergency Response planning for major events. While the details escape me at this time I do recall that all major War Events and several Kingdoms had them, were working on them or at least had looked into it. Aisiline asked me to have input into an Emergency plan for Ealdormere and particularly our larger camping type events. Once this plan was put together Aisiline presented it to the Privy Council of the day. Once again I do not know what the exact wording of their response was but the way it came down to us in common language was the Kingdom was not interested and their reasoning were based upon Plausible Deniability. They basically said, if we have an official or formal plan and it fails in some way we (Ealdormere or the SCA) could be held liable, however if there is no plan and we do what we are trained to do under standard first aid training protocols etc. the Kingdom cant be held liable for our failings. 
               
              I don't know if Aisiline still has any of the info or plans we worked on at the time but perhaps a re thinking of this issue and a better job of selling it to Privy Council may be due? I realize this was a "major emergency" type plan but perhaps incorporating smaller response planning as mentioned (3 people plan as mentioned etc.) into such an over all plan may work?
               
              Percival  
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 12:24 PM
              Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: Scenario One

              Xristina wrote:
              > Does anyone have any ideas of how and when, we as chirugeon's should
              put such an action plan in place? An action plan being defined as a
              series of pre-planned events/groups of people to help make an
              emergency situation run as efficiently as possible. I usually teach
              an action plan as consisting of three people; person in charge
              (person actually doing the casualty care/first aid); call person
              (person making sure that 911 is called/alerting the autocrat); scene
              person (crowd control/EMS direction/etc) . Any ideas on how this can
              be incorporated into our events? Would it be different for day events
              and large camping events?

              As we've been informed by Fursto at the Chi picnics, there are THREE
              distinct addresses for the site at which Trillies is held, for one thing.
              I'd suggest that it's prudent practice for there to be an EXACT street
              address at EVERY check-in in case one of our more elderly members suddenly
              has a heart attack...

              Maybe it's time to come up with a structured action plan for Ealdormere
              events? (which of course, other Kingdoms could use if they so choose...)
              WOuldn't hurt to train folks on how to guide EMS into a remote site, for
              instance. If you haven't worked a Pennsic or Estrella you've probably
              never run into that one...

              TSivia

            • tudorpot@gmail.com
              A good suggestion--I made a similar one last year after attending an event and no one being able to tell me where the nearest hospital was. Other info - local
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 6, 2009
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                A good suggestion--I made a similar one last year after attending an event and no one being able to tell me where the nearest hospital was. Other info - local pharmacy-location and hours, dental emergency clinic, and perhaps local veterinarian for our companions.

                Freda


                On Jan 6, 2009, at 10:10 PM, Kim wrote:

                Perhaps it would be a good start to develop a "ready" sheet for autocrats. It could list things like the exact street address of the site and phone number, locations of landlines, location of AED (if there is one on site), doors that an ambulance could access.
                 
                Then it could be collected by the chirurgeon in charge or even multiples so that we all have the information

              • Kathleen Gormanshaw
                At 10:10 PM 1/6/2009, you wrote: Perhaps it would be a good start to develop a ready sheet for autocrats. It could list things like the exact street address
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 7, 2009
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                  At 10:10 PM 1/6/2009, you wrote:
                  Perhaps it would be a good start to develop a "ready" sheet for autocrats. It could list things like the exact street address of the site and phone number, locations of landlines, location of AED (if there is one on site), doors that an ambulance could access.
                   
                  Then it could be collected by the chirurgeon in charge or even multiples so that we all have the information.

                  And a copy left at the troll for anyone else who needed the info.

                  Eyrny
                • Ninka
                  ... for Ealdormere events? I have to admit when I asked the action plan question I was not thinking anywhere near trying to make policy changes for the
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 7, 2009
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                    --- In E-Chir@yahoogroups.com, Jackie Wyatt <jkwyatt@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > "Maybe it's time to come up with a structured action plan >
                    for Ealdormere events?

                    I have to admit when I asked the 'action plan' question I was not
                    thinking anywhere near trying to make policy changes for the Kingdom.

                    What I was trying to do was get people to think about how you need to
                    respond if an incident is something that warrants EMS intervention. If
                    you are the CIC of an event (big or small) then I think its a good
                    idea to have formed your action plan before you even get there.

                    For example; part of my own action plan at events is that I keep my
                    kit at Gate and I let the gatekeeper know its there. This way if I
                    need to send someone running for it, it is very easy to find because
                    everyone knows where gate is. I have done this before when I've needed
                    to treat someone. I also always carry my own cell phone with me. It is
                    usually off or on silent but I have it. This way I can ensure a 911
                    call will be made easily - either by myself or by someone that I
                    designate to make the call. No one needs to search for a phone. I have
                    people at events that I know I can count on to assist me if the
                    situation becomes serious. I have talked to them ahead of time. These
                    are the people who will help control my scene, that I know I can send
                    to direct the ambulance, that will make the 911 call, etc. This is set
                    up before I even get to the event. And again, will make my job just
                    that much easier if its necessary. These are just a few examples of
                    little things that can be done to make a situation that much easier to
                    deal with. Not policy. Just individual pre-planning.

                    The 'ready sheets' that people are talking about is one of the things
                    that I wanted to make happen as Kingdom Chirugeon. I am thrilled that
                    everyone seems to have such a positive response to this. Having
                    something at gate, with the autocrat and with working chirugeons is a
                    great idea. I know that we have a couple of 911 dispatchers on this
                    list (Percival? Fursto?) who will be able to help give us some
                    definitive insight into what should be on those sheets because they'll
                    be able to tell us what information the 911 call-taker will
                    immediately require. If they could contact me off-list that would be
                    great.


                    In service,
                    Xristina
                  • Keith Crawley
                    I think something like this is a good idea and as mentioned if it does not effect Kingdom policy as such can be done without any fanfare or concern. Some kind
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 7, 2009
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                      I think something like this is a good idea and as mentioned if it does not effect Kingdom policy as such can be done without any fanfare or concern. Some kind of ready lists and or cards would be awesome and perhaps more work on a Kingdom level keeping each other and event/kingdom staff informed of our presence at events would help as well. Other than people I k now by site as qualified Chirurgeons many times at events I never know or see any presence made known.
                       
                      Locating first aid gear were folks can find it is something I always do and encourage within my own encampment and among the folks I camp with. Putting emergency gear in a universal location goes back to my days with Scouts Canada. We had rules that each sleeping tent have a first aid kit, fire extinguisher, flash light and list of the tents occupants and their emergency needs if any (Medic alert type info). This rule varied some across the various groups and districts but basically everyone had to have some form of first aid kit in each tent. The groups I worked with went a step further and made the placement of such gear universal as well. Inside the front door/flap and immediately on the right.
                       
                      This way any one who needed a first aid kit or other emergency gear could enter any of our groups sleeping tents in the dark and reach for and find what they wanted within a few feet of the main door. Larger group kits, specialized kits and such were also located in kitchen areas and near fire pits or other hazards. I know it doesn't work that well in some of our period tents or the way people lay out their tent to have a modern ugly first aid kit/other emergency gear right inside the door but at least some variation on this theme may help if you ever need a kit in a hurry.
                       
                      Percival
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Ninka
                      Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 9:51 AM
                      Subject: [E-Chir] Re: Scenario One - action plans and ready sheets

                      --- In E-Chir@yahoogroups. com, Jackie Wyatt <jkwyatt@... > wrote:
                      >
                      > "Maybe it's time to come up with a structured action plan >
                      for Ealdormere events?

                      I have to admit when I asked the 'action plan' question I was not
                      thinking anywhere near trying to make policy changes for the Kingdom.

                      What I was trying to do was get people to think about how you need to
                      respond if an incident is something that warrants EMS intervention. If
                      you are the CIC of an event (big or small) then I think its a good
                      idea to have formed your action plan before you even get there.

                      For example; part of my own action plan at events is that I keep my
                      kit at Gate and I let the gatekeeper know its there. This way if I
                      need to send someone running for it, it is very easy to find because
                      everyone knows where gate is. I have done this before when I've needed
                      to treat someone. I also always carry my own cell phone with me. It is
                      usually off or on silent but I have it. This way I can ensure a 911
                      call will be made easily - either by myself or by someone that I
                      designate to make the call. No one needs to search for a phone. I have
                      people at events that I know I can count on to assist me if the
                      situation becomes serious. I have talked to them ahead of time. These
                      are the people who will help control my scene, that I know I can send
                      to direct the ambulance, that will make the 911 call, etc. This is set
                      up before I even get to the event. And again, will make my job just
                      that much easier if its necessary. These are just a few examples of
                      little things that can be done to make a situation that much easier to
                      deal with. Not policy. Just individual pre-planning.

                      The 'ready sheets' that people are talking about is one of the things
                      that I wanted to make happen as Kingdom Chirugeon. I am thrilled that
                      everyone seems to have such a positive response to this. Having
                      something at gate, with the autocrat and with working chirugeons is a
                      great idea. I know that we have a couple of 911 dispatchers on this
                      list (Percival? Fursto?) who will be able to help give us some
                      definitive insight into what should be on those sheets because they'll
                      be able to tell us what information the 911 call-taker will
                      immediately require. If they could contact me off-list that would be
                      great.

                      In service,
                      Xristina

                    • Ninka
                      I was never a scout but at Pennsic my kit is always in my tent by the door on the right. It is a good system. :) Xristina ... From: Keith Crawley
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 7, 2009
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                        I was never a scout but at Pennsic my kit is always in my tent by the door on the right. It is a good system. :)

                        Xristina

                        --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Keith Crawley <crawleys@...> wrote:
                        From: Keith Crawley <crawleys@...>
                        Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: Scenario One - action plans and ready sheets
                        To: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com
                        Received: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 1:40 PM

                        I think something like this is a good idea and as mentioned if it does not effect Kingdom policy as such can be done without any fanfare or concern. Some kind of ready lists and or cards would be awesome and perhaps more work on a Kingdom level keeping each other and event/kingdom staff informed of our presence at events would help as well. Other than people I k now by site as qualified Chirurgeons many times at events I never know or see any presence made known.
                         
                        Locating first aid gear were folks can find it is something I always do and encourage within my own encampment and among the folks I camp with. Putting emergency gear in a universal location goes back to my days with Scouts Canada. We had rules that each sleeping tent have a first aid kit, fire extinguisher, flash light and list of the tents occupants and their emergency needs if any (Medic alert type info). This rule varied some across the various groups and districts but basically everyone had to have some form of first aid kit in each tent. The groups I worked with went a step further and made the placement of such gear universal as well. Inside the front door/flap and immediately on the right.
                         
                        This way any one who needed a first aid kit or other emergency gear could enter any of our groups sleeping tents in the dark and reach for and find what they wanted within a few feet of the main door. Larger group kits, specialized kits and such were also located in kitchen areas and near fire pits or other hazards. I know it doesn't work that well in some of our period tents or the way people lay out their tent to have a modern ugly first aid kit/other emergency gear right inside the door but at least some variation on this theme may help if you ever need a kit in a hurry.
                         
                        Percival
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Ninka
                        Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 9:51 AM
                        Subject: [E-Chir] Re: Scenario One - action plans and ready sheets

                        --- In E-Chir@yahoogroups. com, Jackie Wyatt <jkwyatt@... > wrote:
                        >
                        > "Maybe it's time to come up with a structured action plan >
                        for Ealdormere events?

                        I have to admit when I asked the 'action plan' question I was not
                        thinking anywhere near trying to make policy changes for the Kingdom.

                        What I was trying to do was get people to think about how you need to
                        respond if an incident is something that warrants EMS intervention. If
                        you are the CIC of an event (big or small) then I think its a good
                        idea to have formed your action plan before you even get there.

                        For example; part of my own action plan at events is that I keep my
                        kit at Gate and I let the gatekeeper know its there. This way if I
                        need to send someone running for it, it is very easy to find because
                        everyone knows where gate is. I have done this before when I've needed
                        to treat someone. I also always carry my own cell phone with me. It is
                        usually off or on silent but I have it. This way I can ensure a 911
                        call will be made easily - either by myself or by someone that I
                        designate to make the call. No one needs to search for a phone. I have
                        people at events that I know I can count on to assist me if the
                        situation becomes serious. I have talked to them ahead of time. These
                        are the people who will help control my scene, that I know I can send
                        to direct the ambulance, that will make the 911 call, etc. This is set
                        up before I even get to the event. And again, will make my job just
                        that much easier if its necessary. These are just a few examples of
                        little things that can be done to make a situation that much easier to
                        deal with. Not policy. Just individual pre-planning.

                        The 'ready sheets' that people are talking about is one of the things
                        that I wanted to make happen as Kingdom Chirugeon. I am thrilled that
                        everyone seems to have such a positive response to this. Having
                        something at gate, with the autocrat and with working chirugeons is a
                        great idea. I know that we have a couple of 911 dispatchers on this
                        list (Percival? Fursto?) who will be able to help give us some
                        definitive insight into what should be on those sheets because they'll
                        be able to tell us what information the 911 call-taker will
                        immediately require. If they could contact me off-list that would be
                        great.

                        In service,
                        Xristina



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                      • b1laxson
                        ... should ... Borrowing from my current Security work every guard in my staff may be the one alone in the emergency. So I quiz them without warning on the
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 10, 2009
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                          > Does anyone have any ideas of how and when, we as chirugeon's
                          should
                          > put such an action plan in place? An action plan being defined as

                          Borrowing from my current Security work every guard in my staff may
                          be the one alone in the emergency. So I quiz them without warning on
                          the matter.

                          The content of what-to-do needs to be available without notice...
                          becuase the emergencies happen without notice.

                          At the very least we should get in the habit of having troll or the
                          bar (common reference points) having print out of the action plan
                          available. I feel this would include:
                          = at least one chirugeon present/expected
                          = who-has/where-is a phone,
                          = contact info for the Autocrat
                          = contact info for the Kingdom Chirugeon (24 hours of a medical
                          emergency)
                          = directions >TO< the site (needed for 911 calls)

                          debating on:
                          = directions to the nearest hospital,
                          (which you can probably get from the 911 or find out from the
                          ambulance which one they happen to be going to.. which isnt always
                          the nearest one)

                          For the SCA, crowd control is a common activity for us... we
                          configure halls, we martial fighting, we martial archery, we
                          organize dancing... we have internal ranks of
                          Laurel/Pelican/Knights... and even a King that might be there to get
                          the crowd control done.

                          This print out could be made up as a form and a recommended item for
                          the event autocrats.
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