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Pennsic XXXV griping

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  • Streonwold Wulfesbana (mka Steve Benetti)
    I guess somebody had better start the whining about what happened at Pennsic this year, and the fallout from that. I know that stuff happened of which I was
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 12, 2006
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      I guess somebody had better start the whining about what happened at
      Pennsic this year, and the fallout from that. I know that stuff
      happened of which I was not, and am not, aware. I also know that
      Kaellyn and the Chi management staff did a great job in an untenable
      situation, which I hope will never be repeated.

      There are many fallout issues associated with Pennsic, one of which
      has to do with liability.

      In considering that whole Pennsic debacle, and ongoing liability
      issues, I'm not certain that I'm interested in doing F/A in the US at
      ANY event, anymore. For example, one discussion on the Known World
      Chirurgeons Yahoo Group has had to do with application of simple
      triple antibiotic ointment. It seems that the ARC says it's OK to
      apply it, but there might be State specific laws that prohibit
      applying it. On the other hand, it's harmless, unless specific
      allergies are present. So basically, we can apply it, unless we
      can't. And even not applying it could be a liability issue, if it's
      available and not used, but it could have been and an infection
      develops. Similar considerations and concerns seem to apply to
      (relatively harmless) OTC pain killers.

      I'm not a Chirurgeon in order to better my understanding of idiotic
      American litigation and tort law, so I'll just confine my first aid
      activities to Canada from now on. I would like the Chirurgeonate to
      continue to consider me a Warranted Chirurgeon, but with the
      understanding that, if I do any First Aid outside of Canada, it will
      be as a private citizen, not as a member of the Chirurgeonate.

      Now that I've got that off my chest, I'm a much happier camper.

      Streonwold
    • MaryCatharine
      I totally hear you and understand what you are saying... I too am questioning whether or not I ever wish be a first-Aider again, in the states, after what I
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 12, 2006
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         I totally hear you and understand what you are saying...
        I too am questioning whether or not I ever wish be a first-Aider again,
         in the states, after what I witnessed...
        The people down there looked to the first-aiders for treatment because, as
        One fellow put it, they can not afford to be treated at hospital... 
        I told him I was really sorry, but he had to speak with the EMS.. I thought "good
        Grief", if anything happened and I was to be sued, I am not about to put my job
        And my family on the line. 
        I do have insurance to teach, but not in the states.
         
        I could not believe  a debate, which should never had taken place, period,
        On DNR's on the Known World Chirurgeon's Yahoo Group...  All I thought was
        Are they crazy... 
         
        And then there was what Kaellyn had to go through.
         
        I have not made a final decision on whether or not I will be a First-Aider
        Again, in the states, but I too have had my doubts.
         
        Yours in health and safety,
         MariaKatharina/MaryCatharine
         
         
         
        ------Original Message-------
         
        Date: 09/12/06 13:36:38
        Subject: [E-Chir] Pennsic XXXV griping
         

        I guess somebody had better start the whining about what happened at
        Pennsic this year, and the fallout from that. I know that stuff
        happened of which I was not, and am not, aware. I also know that
        Kaellyn and the Chi management staff did a great job in an untenable
        situation, which I hope will never be repeated.

        There are many fallout issues associated with Pennsic, one of which
        has to do with liability.

        In considering that whole Pennsic debacle, and ongoing liability
        issues, I'm not certain that I'm interested in doing F/A in the US at
        ANY event, anymore. For example, one discussion on the Known World
        Chirurgeons Yahoo Group has had to do with application of simple
        triple antibiotic ointment. It seems that the ARC says it's OK to
        apply it, but there might be State specific laws that prohibit
        applying it. On the other hand, it's harmless, unless specific
        allergies are present. So basically, we can apply it, unless we
        can't. And even not applying it could be a liability issue, if it's
        available and not used, but it could have been and an infection
        develops. Similar considerations and concerns seem to apply to
        (relatively harmless) OTC pain killers.

        I'm not a Chirurgeon in order to better my understanding of idiotic
        American litigation and tort law, so I'll just confine my first aid
        activities to Canada from now on. I would like the Chirurgeonate to
        continue to consider me a Warranted Chirurgeon, but with the
        understanding that, if I do any First Aid outside of Canada, it will
        be as a private citizen, not as a member of the Chirurgeonate.

        Now that I've got that off my chest, I'm a much happier camper.

        Streonwold

         
      • Kim
        More comments later, but I will address one thing from Streonwold and MaryCatherine. During the second week of Pennsic, (ironman first aid, hooyaw!!!) I
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 12, 2006
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          More comments later, but I will address one thing from Streonwold and MaryCatherine. During the second week of Pennsic, (ironman first aid, hooyaw!!!) I seriously considered coming home and resigning my warrant. Not because of the politics and legal issues, but because more people couldn't see past those things to remember that we're here to do first aid. And that has to be the most important thing.
           
          It was the response of the people from Ealdormere who came in and stayed to work that kept me going. (In fact, you kept Pennsic from being shut down.) And then some others came in and we made it through.
           
          Don't worry TSivia, I'm not resigning my warrant as long as you'll have me.
           
          Kaellyn
           
           
           
        • TSivia
          ... hooyaw!!!) I seriously considered coming home and resigning my warrant. Not because of the politics and legal issues, but because more people couldn t see
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 12, 2006
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            --- In E-Chir@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <viscountessk@...> wrote:
            >
            > ... During the second week of Pennsic, (ironman first aid,
            hooyaw!!!) I seriously considered coming home and resigning my
            warrant. Not because of the politics and legal issues, but because
            more people couldn't see past those things to remember that we're here
            to do first aid. And that has to be the most important thing.

            New Mantra for Ealdormerean Chirurgeons: kiss boo-boos. Kiss boo-
            boos. <grin> I wonder if I can get Nicolaa to translate that into
            Latin as a Kingdom motto? <grin> Having not been anywhere near
            Chirurgeon Ground Zero (thank GOODNESS!), I can only say that it
            appears to me as a well-trained First Aider and Doctor (Ph.D!!), that
            pre-existing conditions caused a sudden, acute flare-up of political-
            itis. Even triple-antibiotic cream can't cure that right away, and it
            can become chronic AND INFLAMED if not treated immediately.

            > It was the response of the people from Ealdormere who came in and
            stayed to work that kept me going. (In fact, you kept Pennsic from
            being shut down.) And then some others came in and we made it through.

            Not to put too fine a point on it, but Ealdormerean Chirurgeons ROCK!
            Each and every one of you, both at Pennsic and not, have made me proud
            as heck. I still feel like I need a pinch when I see RNs, Paramedics,
            First Responders, Midwives, St. Johns, Red Cross, and Cdn. Ski Patrol
            (to mention but SOME of our training in-kingdom) all working together
            to make sure everyone's good and healthy.

            I can't tell you to work Stateside events, nor would I. Each and
            every one of you will have to make that decision based on your own
            needs and desires. You CAN ALWAYS offer first aid under your mundane
            certification if you NEED to.

            Just stick with me up here ok? It's Ontario. Allegedly we're still
            somewhat sane here. <WEG>

            > Don't worry TSivia, I'm not resigning my warrant as long as you'll
            have me.

            "As long as I'll have you"!?!?! (considers the concept of a 100 year
            lease on indentured chirurgeon servitude) IMHO Kaellyn is the HEROINE
            of the story at Pennsic, and I'm so far beyond proud to have her as
            one of us, I don't have sufficient words. Those of you who WERE at
            Pennsic can chime in.

            Too bad you can't garnish a Pelican award with garlands of Sushi or
            something as an augmentation.

            TSivia
          • Benetti,Sandy [Ontario]
            Kaellyn was the only reason I continued to offer my services as a chirurgeon at Pennsic. The fact that she made it through without murdering someone is still
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 13, 2006
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              Kaellyn was the only reason I continued to offer my services as a chirurgeon at Pennsic.  The fact that she made it through without murdering someone is still a mystery to me. I doubt I would have handled the situation with as much grace and poise.  I will always offer my services as a first aider when the situation calls for it because when it comes right down to it, if I can help someone in distress I will and politics be damned, BUT I came within a cat's whisker of going to the people that created that mess and telling them what I REALLY thought (which would have included some very creative suggestions on what they can do with a large bore needle, a syringe and sutures).
               
              Kaellyn you were and are totally AMAZING!!
               
              Hugs to all my fellow Ealdormerean Chirurgeons...you are AWESOME
               
              Seonag
               
            • KIM MCAULEY
              So all the muttering about body bag in my trunk, 3 hours to the border and Canada won t extradite to a death penalty charge wasn t noticed? Whew, I m
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 13, 2006
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                So all the muttering about "body bag in my trunk, 3 hours to the border and Canada won't extradite to a death penalty charge" wasn't noticed? Whew, I'm relieved.
                 
                And add Seonag and Streonwald to my list of amazing people, if I had forgotten them before. They get hero cookies too.
                 
                And I adore that creative suggestion, may I borrow it? I'll send you a nickle when I use it.
                 
                K

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: "Benetti,Sandy [Ontario]" <sandy.benetti@...>
                To: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 8:00:17 AM
                Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: Pennsic XXXV griping

                Kaellyn was the only reason I continued to offer my services as a chirurgeon at Pennsic.  The fact that she made it through without murdering someone is still a mystery to me. I doubt I would have handled the situation with as much grace and poise.  I will always offer my services as a first aider when the situation calls for it because when it comes right down to it, if I can help someone in distress I will and politics be damned, BUT I came within a cat's whisker of going to the people that created that mess and telling them what I REALLY thought (which would have included some very creative suggestions on what they can do with a large bore needle, a syringe and sutures).
                 
                Kaellyn you were and are totally AMAZING!!
                 
                Hugs to all my fellow Ealdormerean Chirurgeons...you are AWESOME
                 
                Seonag
                 

              • Jackie Wyatt
                ... She probably would- she loves silly latin phrases. ; Apparently the Pennsic Independant wasn t too fun a place to be around either at some
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 13, 2006
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                  > New Mantra for Ealdormerean Chirurgeons: kiss boo-boos. Kiss boo-
                  > boos. <grin> I wonder if I can get Nicolaa to translate that into
                  > Latin as a Kingdom motto? <grin>

                  <snort!> She probably would- she loves silly latin phrases. ;>

                  Apparently the Pennsic Independant wasn't too fun a place to be around either at some points as
                  well due to the rumours. Nicolaa mentioned that there were some nasty ones going around about
                  them withholding information and other such things, which wasn't true at all.

                  Medb
                  (who wanted to be at Pennsic but had to be at a conference instead)

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                • Benetti,Sandy [Ontario]
                  Be my guest.... :) Seonag PS Can my cookie be chocolate macadamia nut? ... From: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com [mailto:E-Chir@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of KIM
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 13, 2006
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                    Message
                    Be my guest.... :)
                     
                    Seonag
                    PS Can my cookie be chocolate macadamia nut?
                     
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com [mailto:E-Chir@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of KIM MCAULEY
                    Sent: September 13, 2006 8:41 AM
                    To: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: Pennsic XXXV griping

                    So all the muttering about "body bag in my trunk, 3 hours to the border and Canada won't extradite to a death penalty charge" wasn't noticed? Whew, I'm relieved.
                     
                    And add Seonag and Streonwald to my list of amazing people, if I had forgotten them before. They get hero cookies too.
                     
                    And I adore that creative suggestion, may I borrow it? I'll send you a nickle when I use it.
                     
                    K

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: "Benetti,Sandy [Ontario]" <sandy.benetti@ ec.gc.ca>
                    To: E-Chir@yahoogroups. com
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 8:00:17 AM
                    Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: Pennsic XXXV griping

                    Kaellyn was the only reason I continued to offer my services as a chirurgeon at Pennsic.  The fact that she made it through without murdering someone is still a mystery to me. I doubt I would have handled the situation with as much grace and poise.  I will always offer my services as a first aider when the situation calls for it because when it comes right down to it, if I can help someone in distress I will and politics be damned, BUT I came within a cat's whisker of going to the people that created that mess and telling them what I REALLY thought (which would have included some very creative suggestions on what they can do with a large bore needle, a syringe and sutures).
                     
                    Kaellyn you were and are totally AMAZING!!
                     
                    Hugs to all my fellow Ealdormerean Chirurgeons. ..you are AWESOME
                     
                    Seonag
                     

                  • Claude Gagne
                    Hello folks! Having recently suffered an injury at an event myself I can totally appreciate the quality of the chirugeons first hand. So, yes, you rock! I am
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 13, 2006
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                      Hello folks!
                       
                      Having recently suffered an injury at an event myself I can totally appreciate the quality of the chirugeons first hand. So, yes, you rock!
                       
                      I am an "unauthorized" chirurgeon, that's to say that I don't have my papers although I trained in the navy (every 2 years we took the damn course) and I've seen some pretty serious stuff in my 20 years with those crazy bast^*&s. Open chest wounds, gunshots, stabbings, broken bones, bruises etc...The point I'm trying to make really is this. It doesn't matter how well trained you are it comes right down to the kind of first aider you are.
                       
                      We deal with some pretty minor stuff. Small broken bones, heat exhaustion, dehydration, and so on. Not to belittle those but overall, easy to deal with and if treated well not life threating. The most serious problem I saw was Baron Tancred at Pennsic. Here's a man in his 60's suffering an angina attack and while someone faints the EMTs left him to tend to her. Although I can see one of them going to check on her breathing, surely someone should have stayed with him. But they didn't. For almost a minute, Tancred was unattended. So much for training.
                       
                      Here's the situation as I see it. We need to determine what we are going to do as a Kingdom at our events. I've been to 34 events, counting scolas, in the past 12 months and not once was I aware of the location of first aid except at Pennsic. We need to be more omnipresent. If we don't want to herald it fine. But at least let the Marshall in Charge know who and where you are.
                       
                      We also need to agree on a standard procedure for injuries suffered on the field or in the list. For example if a fighter gets hurt and pulls himself out because he's hurt, not counting a little cut on his pinky, then he should stay out untill it's deemed safe for him to go back in by a chirurgeon. Now. I'm not saying that we should have the right to stop someone from fighting. But, I'm sure that given an injury of a serious nature we could discuss it with the MIC and have that person withdrawn from the fighting. It's something that I am debating myself because as a fighter I am being a devil's advocate. I've fought when I shouldn't. But, we need to assert a certain common sense that adreline pumped stick jocks seem to lack.
                       
                      Hoping this will get us chatting in a new direction, (can't change the past) I remain humbly in your service.
                       
                      Derfel Mallory
                    • Streonwold Wulfesbana (mka Steve Benetti)
                      ... going to do as a Kingdom at our events. I ve been to 34 events, counting scolas, in the past 12 months and not once was I aware of the location of first
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 13, 2006
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                        --- In E-Chir@yahoogroups.com, Claude Gagne <claude_gagne_tech@...> wrote:
                        >snippage
                        > Here's the situation as I see it. We need to determine what we are
                        going to do as a Kingdom at our events. I've been to 34 events,
                        counting scolas, in the past 12 months and not once was I aware of the
                        location of first aid except at Pennsic. We need to be more
                        omnipresent. If we don't want to herald it fine. But at least let the
                        Marshall in Charge know who and where you are.

                        This has been discussed at length on the "other" list, too, and the
                        concensus there seemed to be either "tell the autocrat and MIC where
                        the CIC will be (ie. sitting over there, fencing, fighting, etc.) and
                        let people shout for help when they need it" or "put up a banner and
                        hang out where people can see you". The problem with the latter
                        approach is that people see "the Chirurgeon vulture" waiting for
                        badness to happen (and it can be really boring for a Chi that would
                        rather be fighting - this is, after all a game that only improves with
                        involvement.) The problem with the former approach is that, unless
                        you need a Chi, you don't know they're there (or maybe that's not
                        really a problem).


                        > We also need to agree on a standard procedure for injuries suffered
                        on the field or in the list. For example if a fighter gets hurt and
                        pulls himself out because he's hurt, not counting a little cut on his
                        pinky, then he should stay out untill it's deemed safe for him to go
                        back in by a chirurgeon. Now. I'm not saying that we should have the
                        right to stop someone from fighting. But, I'm sure that given an
                        injury of a serious nature we could discuss it with the MIC and have
                        that person withdrawn from the fighting. It's something that I am
                        debating myself because as a fighter I am being a devil's advocate.
                        I've fought when I shouldn't. But, we need to assert a certain common
                        sense that adreline pumped stick jocks seem to lack.

                        Typically (for those of us that have practiced at war, anyway) we
                        follow the Fighter's Bill of Rights:
                        "Society Law prohibits the Chirurgeon from removing a fighter from the
                        field against their will. To help fighters and Chirurgeons work better
                        together, let me present the "Fighter's Bill of Rights" as written and
                        presented at a Chirurgeon's conference at Estrella War by Lady Selena
                        D'Ambra in AS XXX, formulated as a statement from the fighter to the
                        Chirurgeon:

                        If I refuse care and I am oriented and coherent (even if annoyed,
                        preoccupied or angry), that is my LEGAL RIGHT.

                        It is up to me whether or not I go back to fighting. I am an adult
                        with a signed waiver. If you feel I am in danger to other fighters or
                        myself, tell a marshal of your concerns. But quietly please, so if
                        either of us is wrong, neither of us will be embarrassed.

                        If I am injured, ask questions of and listen to me and my friends
                        and family. Like me, they also know what is normal for me and how my
                        armor goes on and comes off.

                        Before you do anything, from slapping a cool cloth on my neck to
                        cutting my armor, ask me. Maybe I'll like it, maybe I'll club you like
                        a baby harp seal."

                        Streonwold
                      • Benetti,Sandy [Ontario]
                        With respect to the situation with Tancred. The EMTs may not be at fault. It is entirely possible that the only information they had was an individual with
                        Message 11 of 16 , Sep 13, 2006
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                          With respect to the situation with Tancred.  The EMTs may not be at fault.  It is entirely possible that the only information they had was "an individual with possible heart related issues". When they arrived, they were directed to a person laying on the street with breathing difficulties. It would be easy for them to assume that this was the person they were called to attend.  It was probably at that point that someone else pointed out that Tancred was the reason they were called not the person on the street. Hence a second ambulance arrived for Tancred.
                           
                          It may also be a triage situation. You have 2 casualties. The first is on the ground, conscious, with very apparent breathing difficulties. The second is sitting quietly, conscious and appears to be breathing normally. Which do you check first? The one with obvious breathing issues.
                           
                          Happily in this case there was a very fast response for the arrival of both ambulances, the person on the street was okay ( a close friend of Tancred's who reacted badly to Tancred's initial resistance to going in the ambulance) and Tancred, who was back on site the next day and attended the Ealdormere Bardic circle.
                           
                           
                          As to the rest of your suggestions:
                           
                          I like the idea of having a more visible/obvious presence for first aid (even if it's just a sign at troll that says who the chirurgeon for the event is or where one can go for first aid issues)
                           
                          I'm not so sure about the "pulling someone from fighting" part.
                          We can offer assistance, we can suggest that someone stop fighting if we think it's warranted due to the nature of the injury. We can't make them stop as you pointed out. The MIC can't make them stop either unless they present a danger to the other fighters. Oddly I don't believe there's anything that covers "danger to yourself" in this situation. One would hope, that if the injury were of a serious nature that no convincing would be necessary.
                           
                          This brings us to the "how do you determine it's serious"?  It's not always obvious.  If I may Derfel, let me use your situation as an example.  If you had come to me with the injury or if I had seen the incident which caused it and asked to check you over I would have suspected a sprain (at the very least)  and suggested you quit fighting for the day and if the pain persisted that you get it checked by a doctor in case it was more serious. I imagine a couple of people may have done that and you probably said, "hey it's no big deal it's just a minor sprain."  As it turned out, it was more serious than just a minor sprain.  So, where do you draw the line? How far do you go?  Do you talk to the MIC and say "this person has a bad sprain, I don't think they should fight anymore but they want to keep going, will you pull them from the fighting on the grounds that they could make it worse"?    Probably not. Do You try to scare the fighter into doing what you want by predicting dire things if they aggravate the injury? Probably not.  All you can do is encourage them to at least take a break because running around with even an minor sprain can aggravate the injury and prolong the time it takes to heal it. 
                           
                          It's a fine line between doing the best for the person you are trying to look after and being a "cowboy" and running roughshod over them when a bit of diplomacy and gentle persuasion is all that's needed.  It's not something you can regulate or make a manual for. Every situation is different.  Now if the fighter pulls himself out, it may be a good idea to go to the Chirurgeon and tell that person the reason so that the Chirurgeon can keep an eye on them or offer first aid.  Hopefully the fighter will consult the Chirurgeon before trying to resume fighting but if they don't, there isn't a lot we can do to prevent it. We're all adults and unless there is an obvious risk of danger to other people (again I'm not sure there's anything in the rules about being a danger to yourself) it would be very difficult to pull the person out against their wishes.
                           
                          Having said all of that, I have found that most of our fighters are pretty reasonable and they also have a pretty good idea of their limits. I have only had one or two occasions where I've suggested that the individual hang it up for the day. Once for heat related stuff and once for a knee pull.  Both times the fighter, went back in to try one more round and both times, they came out almost immediately following the first swing and said "nope your right, I need to stop now". It was getting the one with the knee to sit quietly and rest the knee that was the hard part.
                           
                          Seonag
                           
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com [mailto:E-Chir@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Claude Gagne
                          Sent: September 13, 2006 8:53 AM
                          To: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: Pennsic XXXV griping

                          Hello folks!
                           
                          Having recently suffered an injury at an event myself I can totally appreciate the quality of the chirugeons first hand. So, yes, you rock!
                           
                          I am an "unauthorized" chirurgeon, that's to say that I don't have my papers although I trained in the navy (every 2 years we took the damn course) and I've seen some pretty serious stuff in my 20 years with those crazy bast^*&s. Open chest wounds, gunshots, stabbings, broken bones, bruises etc...The point I'm trying to make really is this. It doesn't matter how well trained you are it comes right down to the kind of first aider you are.
                           
                          We deal with some pretty minor stuff. Small broken bones, heat exhaustion, dehydration, and so on. Not to belittle those but overall, easy to deal with and if treated well not life threating. The most serious problem I saw was Baron Tancred at Pennsic. Here's a man in his 60's suffering an angina attack and while someone faints the EMTs left him to tend to her. Although I can see one of them going to check on her breathing, surely someone should have stayed with him. But they didn't. For almost a minute, Tancred was unattended. So much for training.
                           
                          Here's the situation as I see it. We need to determine what we are going to do as a Kingdom at our events. I've been to 34 events, counting scolas, in the past 12 months and not once was I aware of the location of first aid except at Pennsic. We need to be more omnipresent. If we don't want to herald it fine. But at least let the Marshall in Charge know who and where you are.
                           
                          We also need to agree on a standard procedure for injuries suffered on the field or in the list. For example if a fighter gets hurt and pulls himself out because he's hurt, not counting a little cut on his pinky, then he should stay out untill it's deemed safe for him to go back in by a chirurgeon. Now. I'm not saying that we should have the right to stop someone from fighting. But, I'm sure that given an injury of a serious nature we could discuss it with the MIC and have that person withdrawn from the fighting. It's something that I am debating myself because as a fighter I am being a devil's advocate. I've fought when I shouldn't. But, we need to assert a certain common sense that adreline pumped stick jocks seem to lack.
                           
                          Hoping this will get us chatting in a new direction, (can't change the past) I remain humbly in your service.
                           
                          Derfel Mallory

                        • KIM MCAULEY
                          Actually I can speak to that situation as I was attending as a first aider. And I should mention Tancred gave me specific permission to speak to other
                          Message 12 of 16 , Sep 13, 2006
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                            Actually I can speak to that situation as I was attending as a first aider. And I should mention Tancred gave me specific permission to speak to other chirurgeons, and he was discussing the incident publically, so we are not breaking any confidentiality here. But please keep this among ourselves.
                             
                            I escorted the first ambulance to Patient 1. When I arrived, he was being attended by at least one other chirurgeon. He refused care from EMS quite emphatically and repeatedly, in fact their presence was agitating him. I asked EMS to wait outside while he calmed down and was persuaded to allow their assistance.
                             
                            While they were waiting outside, Patient 2 became unresponsive. Having been refused at the first patient, they attended at the second and immediately called for a second EMS unit to attend Patient 1 when he was ready.
                             
                            My first aid training says that responsiveness is right up there with ABC and should be treated just as seriously, but your and their mileage may vary.
                             
                            Sometimes s***tuff just happens in great leaps and bounds. One deals with it the best they can.
                             
                            Kaellyn
                             
                             


                             
                            ----- Original Message ----
                            We deal with some pretty minor stuff. Small broken bones, heat exhaustion, dehydration, and so on. Not to belittle those but overall, easy to deal with and if treated well not life threating. The most serious problem I saw was Baron Tancred at Pennsic. Here's a man in his 60's suffering an angina attack and while someone faints the EMTs left him to tend to her. Although I can see one of them going to check on her breathing, surely someone should have stayed with him. But they didn't. For almost a minute, Tancred was unattended. So much for training.
                             
                          • Claude Gagne
                            Thank you for clearing that up for me. Standing outside the tent seemed a different story altogether. Well done. Derfel ... From: KIM MCAULEY
                            Message 13 of 16 , Sep 13, 2006
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                              Thank you for clearing that up for me.
                               
                              Standing outside the tent seemed a different story altogether.
                               
                              Well done.
                               
                              Derfel

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: KIM MCAULEY <viscountessk@...>
                              To: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:00:48 AM
                              Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: Pennsic XXXV griping

                              Actually I can speak to that situation as I was attending as a first aider. And I should mention Tancred gave me specific permission to speak to other chirurgeons, and he was discussing the incident publically, so we are not breaking any confidentiality here. But please keep this among ourselves.
                               
                              I escorted the first ambulance to Patient 1. When I arrived, he was being attended by at least one other chirurgeon. He refused care from EMS quite emphatically and repeatedly, in fact their presence was agitating him. I asked EMS to wait outside while he calmed down and was persuaded to allow their assistance.
                               
                              While they were waiting outside, Patient 2 became unresponsive. Having been refused at the first patient, they attended at the second and immediately called for a second EMS unit to attend Patient 1 when he was ready.
                               
                              My first aid training says that responsiveness is right up there with ABC and should be treated just as seriously, but your and their mileage may vary.
                               
                              Sometimes s***tuff just happens in great leaps and bounds. One deals with it the best they can.
                               
                              Kaellyn
                               
                               


                               
                              ----- Original Message ----
                              We deal with some pretty minor stuff. Small broken bones, heat exhaustion, dehydration, and so on. Not to belittle those but overall, easy to deal with and if treated well not life threating. The most serious problem I saw was Baron Tancred at Pennsic. Here's a man in his 60's suffering an angina attack and while someone faints the EMTs left him to tend to her. Although I can see one of them going to check on her breathing, surely someone should have stayed with him. But they didn't. For almost a minute, Tancred was unattended. So much for training.
                               

                            • Kim
                              It just goes to show that sometimes we don t have all the information. Asking is the best way to find out, and if we can share without breaking
                              Message 14 of 16 , Sep 13, 2006
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                                It just goes to show that sometimes we don't have all the information. Asking is the best way to find out, and if we can share without breaking confidentiality, we all learn.
                                 
                                Kaellyn
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 2:35 PM
                                Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: Pennsic XXXV griping

                                Thank you for clearing that up for me.
                                 
                                Standing outside the tent seemed a different story altogether.
                                 
                                Well done.
                                 
                                Derfel

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: KIM MCAULEY <viscountessk@...>
                                To: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:00:48 AM
                                Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: Pennsic XXXV griping

                                Actually I can speak to that situation as I was attending as a first aider. And I should mention Tancred gave me specific permission to speak to other chirurgeons, and he was discussing the incident publically, so we are not breaking any confidentiality here. But please keep this among ourselves.
                                 
                                I escorted the first ambulance to Patient 1. When I arrived, he was being attended by at least one other chirurgeon. He refused care from EMS quite emphatically and repeatedly, in fact their presence was agitating him. I asked EMS to wait outside while he calmed down and was persuaded to allow their assistance.
                                 
                                While they were waiting outside, Patient 2 became unresponsive. Having been refused at the first patient, they attended at the second and immediately called for a second EMS unit to attend Patient 1 when he was ready.
                                 
                                My first aid training says that responsiveness is right up there with ABC and should be treated just as seriously, but your and their mileage may vary.
                                 
                                Sometimes s***tuff just happens in great leaps and bounds. One deals with it the best they can.
                                 
                                Kaellyn
                                 
                                 


                                 
                                ----- Original Message ----
                                We deal with some pretty minor stuff. Small broken bones, heat exhaustion, dehydration, and so on. Not to belittle those but overall, easy to deal with and if treated well not life threating. The most serious problem I saw was Baron Tancred at Pennsic. Here's a man in his 60's suffering an angina attack and while someone faints the EMTs left him to tend to her. Although I can see one of them going to check on her breathing, surely someone should have stayed with him. But they didn't. For almost a minute, Tancred was unattended. So much for training.
                                 

                              • Kim
                                MessageI ve discovered something very important over the years. Goodness knows that old age had to bring something besides grey hairs. Cultivate a reputation
                                Message 15 of 16 , Sep 13, 2006
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                                  Message
                                  I've discovered something very important over the years. Goodness knows that old age had to bring something besides grey hairs.
                                   
                                  Cultivate a reputation for being a reasonable, "yes, sure, go on if you want, I've warned you" kind of person, then when you do recommend something like sitting out or seeking medical attention immediately, they're more likely to listen.
                                   
                                  Manipulating fighters and other ... nvm? Hey, I'm Collin's mom. I'm an expert!
                                   
                                  ;)
                                   
                                  Kaellyn
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 9:29 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: Pennsic XXXV griping

                                  With respect to the situation with Tancred.  The EMTs may not be at fault.  It is entirely possible that the only information they had was "an individual with possible heart related issues". When they arrived, they were directed to a person laying on the street with breathing difficulties. It would be easy for them to assume that this was the person they were called to attend.  It was probably at that point that someone else pointed out that Tancred was the reason they were called not the person on the street. Hence a second ambulance arrived for Tancred.
                                   
                                  It may also be a triage situation. You have 2 casualties. The first is on the ground, conscious, with very apparent breathing difficulties. The second is sitting quietly, conscious and appears to be breathing normally. Which do you check first? The one with obvious breathing issues.
                                   
                                  Happily in this case there was a very fast response for the arrival of both ambulances, the person on the street was okay ( a close friend of Tancred's who reacted badly to Tancred's initial resistance to going in the ambulance) and Tancred, who was back on site the next day and attended the Ealdormere Bardic circle.
                                   
                                   
                                  As to the rest of your suggestions:
                                   
                                  I like the idea of having a more visible/obvious presence for first aid (even if it's just a sign at troll that says who the chirurgeon for the event is or where one can go for first aid issues)
                                   
                                  I'm not so sure about the "pulling someone from fighting" part.
                                  We can offer assistance, we can suggest that someone stop fighting if we think it's warranted due to the nature of the injury. We can't make them stop as you pointed out. The MIC can't make them stop either unless they present a danger to the other fighters. Oddly I don't believe there's anything that covers "danger to yourself" in this situation. One would hope, that if the injury were of a serious nature that no convincing would be necessary.
                                   
                                  This brings us to the "how do you determine it's serious"?  It's not always obvious.  If I may Derfel, let me use your situation as an example.  If you had come to me with the injury or if I had seen the incident which caused it and asked to check you over I would have suspected a sprain (at the very least)  and suggested you quit fighting for the day and if the pain persisted that you get it checked by a doctor in case it was more serious. I imagine a couple of people may have done that and you probably said, "hey it's no big deal it's just a minor sprain."  As it turned out, it was more serious than just a minor sprain.  So, where do you draw the line? How far do you go?  Do you talk to the MIC and say "this person has a bad sprain, I don't think they should fight anymore but they want to keep going, will you pull them from the fighting on the grounds that they could make it worse"?    Probably not. Do You try to scare the fighter into doing what you want by predicting dire things if they aggravate the injury? Probably not.  All you can do is encourage them to at least take a break because running around with even an minor sprain can aggravate the injury and prolong the time it takes to heal it. 
                                   
                                  It's a fine line between doing the best for the person you are trying to look after and being a "cowboy" and running roughshod over them when a bit of diplomacy and gentle persuasion is all that's needed.  It's not something you can regulate or make a manual for. Every situation is different.  Now if the fighter pulls himself out, it may be a good idea to go to the Chirurgeon and tell that person the reason so that the Chirurgeon can keep an eye on them or offer first aid.  Hopefully the fighter will consult the Chirurgeon before trying to resume fighting but if they don't, there isn't a lot we can do to prevent it. We're all adults and unless there is an obvious risk of danger to other people (again I'm not sure there's anything in the rules about being a danger to yourself) it would be very difficult to pull the person out against their wishes.
                                   
                                  Having said all of that, I have found that most of our fighters are pretty reasonable and they also have a pretty good idea of their limits. I have only had one or two occasions where I've suggested that the individual hang it up for the day. Once for heat related stuff and once for a knee pull.  Both times the fighter, went back in to try one more round and both times, they came out almost immediately following the first swing and said "nope your right, I need to stop now". It was getting the one with the knee to sit quietly and rest the knee that was the hard part.
                                   
                                  Seonag
                                   
                                • Claude Gagne
                                  I m replying to 2 e-mails at once so bear with me please. 1. It just goes to show that sometimes we don t have all the information. Asking is the best way to
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Sep 13, 2006
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                                    I'm replying to 2 e-mails at once so bear with me please.
                                     
                                    1. It just goes to show that sometimes we don't have all the information. Asking is the best way to find out, and if we can share without breaking confidentiality, we all learn.
                                     
                                    Kaellyn
                                     Yes. And thanks again for the help. I'm never beyond admitting I was wrong.
                                     
                                    2. I've discovered something very important over the years. Goodness knows that old age had to bring something besides grey hairs.

                                     

                                    Kaellyn
                                    Do you mean that the grey hairs on my head serve as more than a reminder of all my mistakes. Ouch! That's quite a few.
                                     
                                    Looking forward to meeting you in person, I remain humbly yours.
                                     
                                    Derfel

                                     
                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: Kim <viscountessk@...>
                                    To: E-Chir@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 5:09:40 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [E-Chir] Re: Pennsic XXXV griping

                                    I've discovered something very important over the years. Goodness knows that old age had to bring something besides grey hairs.
                                     
                                    Cultivate a reputation for being a reasonable, "yes, sure, go on if you want, I've warned you" kind of person, then when you do recommend something like sitting out or seeking medical attention immediately, they're more likely to listen.
                                     
                                    Manipulating fighters and other ... nvm? Hey, I'm Collin's mom. I'm an expert!
                                     
                                    ;)
                                     
                                    Kaellyn
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 9:29 AM
                                    Subject: RE: [E-Chir] Re: Pennsic XXXV griping

                                    With respect to the situation with Tancred.  The EMTs may not be at fault.  It is entirely possible that the only information they had was "an individual with possible heart related issues". When they arrived, they were directed to a person laying on the street with breathing difficulties. It would be easy for them to assume that this was the person they were called to attend.  It was probably at that point that someone else pointed out that Tancred was the reason they were called not the person on the street. Hence a second ambulance arrived for Tancred.
                                     
                                    It may also be a triage situation. You have 2 casualties. The first is on the ground, conscious, with very apparent breathing difficulties. The second is sitting quietly, conscious and appears to be breathing normally. Which do you check first? The one with obvious breathing issues.
                                     
                                    Happily in this case there was a very fast response for the arrival of both ambulances, the person on the street was okay ( a close friend of Tancred's who reacted badly to Tancred's initial resistance to going in the ambulance) and Tancred, who was back on site the next day and attended the Ealdormere Bardic circle.
                                     
                                     
                                    As to the rest of your suggestions:
                                     
                                    I like the idea of having a more visible/obvious presence for first aid (even if it's just a sign at troll that says who the chirurgeon for the event is or where one can go for first aid issues)
                                     
                                    I'm not so sure about the "pulling someone from fighting" part.
                                    We can offer assistance, we can suggest that someone stop fighting if we think it's warranted due to the nature of the injury. We can't make them stop as you pointed out. The MIC can't make them stop either unless they present a danger to the other fighters. Oddly I don't believe there's anything that covers "danger to yourself" in this situation. One would hope, that if the injury were of a serious nature that no convincing would be necessary.
                                     
                                    This brings us to the "how do you determine it's serious"?  It's not always obvious.  If I may Derfel, let me use your situation as an example.  If you had come to me with the injury or if I had seen the incident which caused it and asked to check you over I would have suspected a sprain (at the very least)  and suggested you quit fighting for the day and if the pain persisted that you get it checked by a doctor in case it was more serious. I imagine a couple of people may have done that and you probably said, "hey it's no big deal it's just a minor sprain."  As it turned out, it was more serious than just a minor sprain.  So, where do you draw the line? How far do you go?  Do you talk to the MIC and say "this person has a bad sprain, I don't think they should fight anymore but they want to keep going, will you pull them from the fighting on the grounds that they could make it worse"?    Probably not. Do You try to scare the fighter into doing what you want by predicting dire things if they aggravate the injury? Probably not.  All you can do is encourage them to at least take a break because running around with even an minor sprain can aggravate the injury and prolong the time it takes to heal it. 
                                     
                                    It's a fine line between doing the best for the person you are trying to look after and being a "cowboy" and running roughshod over them when a bit of diplomacy and gentle persuasion is all that's needed.  It's not something you can regulate or make a manual for. Every situation is different.  Now if the fighter pulls himself out, it may be a good idea to go to the Chirurgeon and tell that person the reason so that the Chirurgeon can keep an eye on them or offer first aid.  Hopefully the fighter will consult the Chirurgeon before trying to resume fighting but if they don't, there isn't a lot we can do to prevent it. We're all adults and unless there is an obvious risk of danger to other people (again I'm not sure there's anything in the rules about being a danger to yourself) it would be very difficult to pull the person out against their wishes.
                                     
                                    Having said all of that, I have found that most of our fighters are pretty reasonable and they also have a pretty good idea of their limits. I have only had one or two occasions where I've suggested that the individual hang it up for the day. Once for heat related stuff and once for a knee pull.  Both times the fighter, went back in to try one more round and both times, they came out almost immediately following the first swing and said "nope your right, I need to stop now". It was getting the one with the knee to sit quietly and rest the knee that was the hard part.
                                     
                                    Seonag
                                     

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