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Re: [Dragonflylist] UN-HAPI VW in TOA Hub AD

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  • Bob Verriest
    Hi, I flew my DF MK1 for 10 years about 900 hours. It had a 1835 HAPI with the short prop hub flange. The hub would get loose. You could tell when doing a
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 1, 2006
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      Hi,
      I flew my DF MK1 for 10 years about 900 hours. It had a 1835 HAPI with the short prop hub flange. The hub would get loose. You could tell when doing a pre flight. The prop would move very slightly back and froward. After several times reinstalling the hub, I finally decided to heat the prop hub in boiling oil and cool the crank with ice packs on the flange. Then very quickly install the prop hub with a new washer. This worked great, it never came lose again. Be very care full with the hot oil, don't burn down the hanger.
      Bob

      oneskydog@... wrote:
      To all with HAPI engines:

      Subject: Short taper prop hubs FAILURE


      I was in the runnup area of Torance CA getting ready to depart north over
      LAX. The prop hub on my 1835cc HAPI engine experianced a failure along the
      keyway losing the grip on the taper. The hub still held on by the bolt proceded
      to beat the key back and forth failing the crank nose alowing the hub to back
      out the bolt and let the hub turn free.


      Any historical accounts of the short taper HAPI hub failure would be
      appreciated. I knew about the crank failures and the extra long bolt but this is a
      pure hub failure.

      If you have one of these hubs you might consider changing it!!!

      45 seconds from take off in a high population density area with very little
      landing options.

      Regards,

      Charlie Johnson

      a.k.a. One Sky Dog (grounded)


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • Adam V
      you could also use boiling water = safer and r134 in a can i this they call it supper cool it s automotive a/c freon. ...
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 1, 2006
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        you could also use boiling water = safer and r134 in a can i this they call it supper cool it's automotive a/c freon.




        -----------------------------------------------
        > To: Dragonflylist@yahoogroups.com
        > From: veribob1@...
        > Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:39:13 -0700
        > Subject: Re: [Dragonflylist] UN-HAPI VW in TOA Hub AD
        >
        > Hi,
        > I flew my DF MK1 for 10 years about 900 hours. It had a 1835 HAPI with the short prop hub flange. The hub would get loose. You could tell when doing a pre flight. The prop would move very slightly back and froward. After several times reinstalling the hub, I finally decided to heat the prop hub in boiling oil and cool the crank with ice packs on the flange. Then very quickly install the prop hub with a new washer. This worked great, it never came lose again. Be very care full with the hot oil, don't burn down the hanger.
        > Bob
        > oneskydog@... wrote:
        > To all with HAPI engines:
        > Subject: Short taper prop hubs FAILURE
        > I was in the runnup area of Torance CA getting ready to depart north over
        > LAX. The prop hub on my 1835cc HAPI engine experianced a failure along the
        > keyway losing the grip on the taper. The hub still held on by the bolt proceded
        > to beat the key back and forth failing the crank nose alowing the hub to back
        > out the bolt and let the hub turn free.
        > Any historical accounts of the short taper HAPI hub failure would be
        > appreciated. I knew about the crank failures and the extra long bolt but this is a
        > pure hub failure.
        > If you have one of these hubs you might consider changing it!!!
        > 45 seconds from take off in a high population density area with very little
        > landing options.
        > Regards,
        > Charlie Johnson
        > a.k.a. One Sky Dog (grounded)
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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      • Rene Robertson
        Hi Bob, I have admiration for you flying your MK1 for 900 hours behind a 1835 Hapi. Sounds like you had most of the engine issues worked out. I have been
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 2, 2006
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          Hi Bob,
          I have admiration for you flying your MK1 for 900 hours behind a 1835 Hapi. Sounds like you had most of the engine issues worked out.
          I have been flying my Revmaster powered Q2 for about 750 hours. I hope you don't mind me asking you a few questions. I love the VW conversion. It is a very economical way to fly a fun airplane.
          Was your hub the short taper variety?
          What compression ratio were you using.
          Did you ever crack a cylinder block?
          What type of heads were you using and can you tell me about any issues you had with them.
          I seem to go through a set of cylinder heads every 250 hours or have them re-worked at that interval. For the last 500 hours I've used CB044's but am thinking of going back to the VW stock castings.
          Regards
          Rene
          Q2 C-FBWV

          Bob Verriest <veribob1@...> wrote:
          Hi,
          I flew my DF MK1 for 10 years about 900 hours. It had a 1835 HAPI with the short prop hub flange. The hub would get loose. You could tell when doing a pre flight. The prop would move very slightly back and froward. After several times reinstalling the hub, I finally decided to heat the prop hub in boiling oil and cool the crank with ice packs on the flange. Then very quickly install the prop hub with a new washer. This worked great, it never came lose again. Be very care full with the hot oil, don't burn down the hanger.
          Bob

          oneskydog@... wrote:
          To all with HAPI engines:

          Subject: Short taper prop hubs FAILURE


          I was in the runnup area of Torance CA getting ready to depart north over
          LAX. The prop hub on my 1835cc HAPI engine experianced a failure along the
          keyway losing the grip on the taper. The hub still held on by the bolt proceded
          to beat the key back and forth failing the crank nose alowing the hub to back
          out the bolt and let the hub turn free.


          Any historical accounts of the short taper HAPI hub failure would be
          appreciated. I knew about the crank failures and the extra long bolt but this is a
          pure hub failure.

          If you have one of these hubs you might consider changing it!!!

          45 seconds from take off in a high population density area with very little
          landing options.

          Regards,

          Charlie Johnson

          a.k.a. One Sky Dog (grounded)


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • Rene Robertson
          MK1 Fliers, I appreciate the looks of the MK1 with the wingtip gear and the original VW engine configuration. How big of a problem is the 22 landing gear
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 6, 2006
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            MK1 Fliers,
            I appreciate the looks of the MK1 with the wingtip gear and the original VW engine configuration.
            How big of a problem is the 22' landing gear width at most airport taxi ways? Has it kept you from using any smaller airports (assuming the runway lenghts were OK)?
            Also the flex in the canard, does it limit the prop length to 52". How easy is it to break the canard on a hard landing?
            Thanks for your input.

            Rene
            Q2 C-FBWV




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          • DraagunFly@aol.com
            Rene, the Mark I configuration does have some limitations: 1) requires at least a 25 taxiway (with VERY straight taxiing) 2) Makes keeping it straight during
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 6, 2006
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              Rene,
              the Mark I configuration does have some limitations:
              1) requires at least a 25' taxiway (with VERY straight taxiing)
              2) Makes keeping it straight during take-off/landing more important
              3) Will bounce higher if bounced, especially if allowed to bounce more than
              once
              4) Unless you add extra anhedral in canard, your prop is dangerously close
              to the ground with the tail up. I would be nervous about a prop longer than
              52"
              5) Makes any uneven braking a real eye-opener (something I, unfortunately,
              experienced just today!)
              6) A hard landing does put more stress on the canard, but that problem is
              more or less a thing of the past, unless you REALLY DROP IT
              I do not believe the Mark I is more difficult to land, just don't bounce it.


              Richard in Chino
              Mark I Dragonfly with 460 hours on the clock


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Darrell
              Rene, The 52 prop is ok, even though there s not a lot of clearance. There s no problem on t/o. The time to be concerned is on landing, and I ve learned that
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 7, 2006
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                Rene,
                The 52" prop is ok, even though there's not a lot of clearance.
                There's no problem on t/o. The time to be concerned is on landing,
                and I've learned that if it bounces ONCE, on the second bounce, be
                applying throttle and go around...the bouncing will only get worse,
                (porpoising) and end with a prop strike.
                If you do your landings with precise speed control, you won't have
                a problem. I used to limit runway length to 4000', and would use
                3000' getting in. Lately, I've been turning in by time I get to our
                taxiway at 2000'.
                I've only had one problem with the carnard width, and that was at
                the Sullivan fly-in. Taxiing to the hangar, both wheels were on the
                edge of the pavement, and I had the right wheel go off the
                edge...needed some help getting back on the pavement. Saturday
                morning, I pulled the plane by hand through that area.
                The new VW is purring...now has 6 hours on it!!!!
                Darrell MK1 N115DP in TZV



                --- In Dragonflylist@yahoogroups.com, DraagunFly@... wrote:
                >
                > Rene,
                > the Mark I configuration does have some limitations:
                > 1) requires at least a 25' taxiway (with VERY straight taxiing)
                > 2) Makes keeping it straight during take-off/landing more important
                > 3) Will bounce higher if bounced, especially if allowed to bounce
                more than
                > once
                > 4) Unless you add extra anhedral in canard, your prop is
                dangerously close
                > to the ground with the tail up. I would be nervous about a prop
                longer than
                > 52"
                > 5) Makes any uneven braking a real eye-opener (something I,
                unfortunately,
                > experienced just today!)
                > 6) A hard landing does put more stress on the canard, but that
                problem is
                > more or less a thing of the past, unless you REALLY DROP IT
                > I do not believe the Mark I is more difficult to land, just don't
                bounce it.
                >
                >
                > Richard in Chino
                > Mark I Dragonfly with 460 hours on the clock
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Rene Robertson
                Thanks Richard and Darrel. It is great to hear from you both and to see that you have some respectable time on your MK1 s. The Mk1 I was looking at here has a
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 7, 2006
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                  Thanks Richard and Darrel.
                  It is great to hear from you both and to see that you have some respectable time on your MK1's.
                  The Mk1 I was looking at here has a 1915cc Great Plains conversion, about 150 hours on it and is in rough shape (needs some TLC). I have yet to see the log books and weight and balance sheet on it, but what weight should I be looking for as being too heavy?
                  What size VW's are you guys using?
                  Rene
                  Q2 C-FBWV

                  Darrell <d_doerhoff@...> wrote:
                  Rene,
                  The 52" prop is ok, even though there's not a lot of clearance.
                  There's no problem on t/o. The time to be concerned is on landing,
                  and I've learned that if it bounces ONCE, on the second bounce, be
                  applying throttle and go around...the bouncing will only get worse,
                  (porpoising) and end with a prop strike.
                  If you do your landings with precise speed control, you won't have
                  a problem. I used to limit runway length to 4000', and would use
                  3000' getting in. Lately, I've been turning in by time I get to our
                  taxiway at 2000'.
                  I've only had one problem with the carnard width, and that was at
                  the Sullivan fly-in. Taxiing to the hangar, both wheels were on the
                  edge of the pavement, and I had the right wheel go off the
                  edge...needed some help getting back on the pavement. Saturday
                  morning, I pulled the plane by hand through that area.
                  The new VW is purring...now has 6 hours on it!!!!
                  Darrell MK1 N115DP in TZV



                  --- In Dragonflylist@yahoogroups.com, DraagunFly@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Rene,
                  > the Mark I configuration does have some limitations:
                  > 1) requires at least a 25' taxiway (with VERY straight taxiing)
                  > 2) Makes keeping it straight during take-off/landing more important
                  > 3) Will bounce higher if bounced, especially if allowed to bounce
                  more than
                  > once
                  > 4) Unless you add extra anhedral in canard, your prop is
                  dangerously close
                  > to the ground with the tail up. I would be nervous about a prop
                  longer than
                  > 52"
                  > 5) Makes any uneven braking a real eye-opener (something I,
                  unfortunately,
                  > experienced just today!)
                  > 6) A hard landing does put more stress on the canard, but that
                  problem is
                  > more or less a thing of the past, unless you REALLY DROP IT
                  > I do not believe the Mark I is more difficult to land, just don't
                  bounce it.
                  >
                  >
                  > Richard in Chino
                  > Mark I Dragonfly with 460 hours on the clock
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >






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                • DraagunFly@aol.com
                  Rene, My engine is a HAPI 1835cc. OK for single pilot, with 2 aboard the climb is not so good. Engine size is a 2-edged sword, the bigger the motor, more
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 7, 2006
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                    Rene,
                    My engine is a HAPI 1835cc. OK for single pilot, with 2 aboard the climb is
                    not so good. Engine size is a 2-edged sword, the bigger the motor, more power,
                    less reliability. Your choice. My plane weighs in at 711 lbs empty (with
                    oil). It used to be 699, but we all get heavier as we get older, huh!
                    Richard in Chino


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Darrell
                    Rene, My new engine is the same as the old one...1835cc. I bought a kit from Great Plains, and had the old HAPI accessory case machined for the new
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 7, 2006
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                      Rene,
                      My new engine is the same as the old one...1835cc. I bought a kit
                      from Great Plains, and had the old HAPI accessory case machined for
                      the new flywheel/alternator. I thought replacing with the same
                      would keep the job as easy as possible.
                      My plane has 605 lbs listed as empty weight. I haven't weighed
                      the plane, though, so I don't know for sure.
                      With the old engine, I could get 600-700 fpm climb with a
                      passenger, and 900-1000 fpm solo.
                      This past Monday, with temp about 40, I reached 1400 fpm on climb
                      after t/o. I haven't had a passenger yet, as I'm still testing out
                      the new engine....but, I'm liking what I'm getting.
                      My plane isn't the queen of the prom, either...she has some
                      roughness, and wear on her...but, she's in great mechanical shape,
                      and the most fun plane that I've ever owned. She'll be ready for
                      travel again soon, but I also enjoy just going up and boring holes
                      in the sky!!
                      Darrell


                      --- In Dragonflylist@yahoogroups.com, Rene Robertson
                      <q2robertson@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Thanks Richard and Darrel.
                      > It is great to hear from you both and to see that you have some
                      respectable time on your MK1's.
                      > The Mk1 I was looking at here has a 1915cc Great Plains
                      conversion, about 150 hours on it and is in rough shape (needs some
                      TLC). I have yet to see the log books and weight and balance sheet
                      on it, but what weight should I be looking for as being too heavy?
                      > What size VW's are you guys using?
                      > Rene
                      > Q2 C-FBWV
                      >
                      > Darrell <d_doerhoff@...> wrote:
                      > Rene,
                      > The 52" prop is ok, even though there's not a lot of clearance.
                      > There's no problem on t/o. The time to be concerned is on landing,
                      > and I've learned that if it bounces ONCE, on the second bounce, be
                      > applying throttle and go around...the bouncing will only get
                      worse,
                      > (porpoising) and end with a prop strike.
                      > If you do your landings with precise speed control, you won't have
                      > a problem. I used to limit runway length to 4000', and would use
                      > 3000' getting in. Lately, I've been turning in by time I get to
                      our
                      > taxiway at 2000'.
                      > I've only had one problem with the carnard width, and that was at
                      > the Sullivan fly-in. Taxiing to the hangar, both wheels were on
                      the
                      > edge of the pavement, and I had the right wheel go off the
                      > edge...needed some help getting back on the pavement. Saturday
                      > morning, I pulled the plane by hand through that area.
                      > The new VW is purring...now has 6 hours on it!!!!
                      > Darrell MK1 N115DP in TZV
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Dragonflylist@yahoogroups.com, DraagunFly@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Rene,
                      > > the Mark I configuration does have some limitations:
                      > > 1) requires at least a 25' taxiway (with VERY straight taxiing)
                      > > 2) Makes keeping it straight during take-off/landing more
                      important
                      > > 3) Will bounce higher if bounced, especially if allowed to
                      bounce
                      > more than
                      > > once
                      > > 4) Unless you add extra anhedral in canard, your prop is
                      > dangerously close
                      > > to the ground with the tail up. I would be nervous about a prop
                      > longer than
                      > > 52"
                      > > 5) Makes any uneven braking a real eye-opener (something I,
                      > unfortunately,
                      > > experienced just today!)
                      > > 6) A hard landing does put more stress on the canard, but that
                      > problem is
                      > > more or less a thing of the past, unless you REALLY DROP IT
                      > > I do not believe the Mark I is more difficult to land, just
                      don't
                      > bounce it.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Richard in Chino
                      > > Mark I Dragonfly with 460 hours on the clock
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk
                      email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Rene Robertson
                      Darrell, Sounds like you are getting great performance out of your engine and DF. You probably have one of the lightest DF s out there. When you rebuilt your
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 7, 2006
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                        Darrell,
                        Sounds like you are getting great performance out of your engine and DF. You probably have one of the lightest DF's out there.
                        When you rebuilt your engine, did you re-use your original crank or was the kit from Great Plains a complete engine kit? Is your prop hub a shrink fit or short taper type?
                        That's what it's all about, having a blast enjoying our hobby.
                        Rene
                        Q2 C-FBWV

                        Darrell <d_doerhoff@...> wrote:
                        Rene,
                        My new engine is the same as the old one...1835cc. I bought a kit
                        from Great Plains, and had the old HAPI accessory case machined for
                        the new flywheel/alternator. I thought replacing with the same
                        would keep the job as easy as possible.
                        My plane has 605 lbs listed as empty weight. I haven't weighed
                        the plane, though, so I don't know for sure.
                        With the old engine, I could get 600-700 fpm climb with a
                        passenger, and 900-1000 fpm solo.
                        This past Monday, with temp about 40, I reached 1400 fpm on climb
                        after t/o. I haven't had a passenger yet, as I'm still testing out
                        the new engine....but, I'm liking what I'm getting.
                        My plane isn't the queen of the prom, either...she has some
                        roughness, and wear on her...but, she's in great mechanical shape,
                        and the most fun plane that I've ever owned. She'll be ready for
                        travel again soon, but I also enjoy just going up and boring holes
                        in the sky!!
                        Darrell

                        --- In Dragonflylist@yahoogroups.com, Rene Robertson
                        <q2robertson@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks Richard and Darrel.
                        > It is great to hear from you both and to see that you have some
                        respectable time on your MK1's.
                        > The Mk1 I was looking at here has a 1915cc Great Plains
                        conversion, about 150 hours on it and is in rough shape (needs some
                        TLC). I have yet to see the log books and weight and balance sheet
                        on it, but what weight should I be looking for as being too heavy?
                        > What size VW's are you guys using?
                        > Rene
                        > Q2 C-FBWV
                        >
                        > Darrell <d_doerhoff@...> wrote:
                        > Rene,
                        > The 52" prop is ok, even though there's not a lot of clearance.
                        > There's no problem on t/o. The time to be concerned is on landing,
                        > and I've learned that if it bounces ONCE, on the second bounce, be
                        > applying throttle and go around...the bouncing will only get
                        worse,
                        > (porpoising) and end with a prop strike.
                        > If you do your landings with precise speed control, you won't have
                        > a problem. I used to limit runway length to 4000', and would use
                        > 3000' getting in. Lately, I've been turning in by time I get to
                        our
                        > taxiway at 2000'.
                        > I've only had one problem with the carnard width, and that was at
                        > the Sullivan fly-in. Taxiing to the hangar, both wheels were on
                        the
                        > edge of the pavement, and I had the right wheel go off the
                        > edge...needed some help getting back on the pavement. Saturday
                        > morning, I pulled the plane by hand through that area.
                        > The new VW is purring...now has 6 hours on it!!!!
                        > Darrell MK1 N115DP in TZV
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Dragonflylist@yahoogroups.com, DraagunFly@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Rene,
                        > > the Mark I configuration does have some limitations:
                        > > 1) requires at least a 25' taxiway (with VERY straight taxiing)
                        > > 2) Makes keeping it straight during take-off/landing more
                        important
                        > > 3) Will bounce higher if bounced, especially if allowed to
                        bounce
                        > more than
                        > > once
                        > > 4) Unless you add extra anhedral in canard, your prop is
                        > dangerously close
                        > > to the ground with the tail up. I would be nervous about a prop
                        > longer than
                        > > 52"
                        > > 5) Makes any uneven braking a real eye-opener (something I,
                        > unfortunately,
                        > > experienced just today!)
                        > > 6) A hard landing does put more stress on the canard, but that
                        > problem is
                        > > more or less a thing of the past, unless you REALLY DROP IT
                        > > I do not believe the Mark I is more difficult to land, just
                        don't
                        > bounce it.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Richard in Chino
                        > > Mark I Dragonfly with 460 hours on the clock
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk
                        email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >






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                      • oneskydog@aol.com
                        In a message dated 12/7/2006 10:01:18 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, DraagunFly@aol.com writes: Rene, My engine is a HAPI 1835cc. OK for single pilot, with 2
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 7, 2006
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                          In a message dated 12/7/2006 10:01:18 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
                          DraagunFly@... writes:

                          Rene,
                          My engine is a HAPI 1835cc. OK for single pilot, with 2 aboard the climb is
                          not so good. Engine size is a 2-edged sword, the bigger the motor, more
                          power,
                          less reliability. Your choice. My plane weighs in at 711 lbs empty (with
                          oil). It used to be 699, but we all get heavier as we get older, huh!
                          Richard in Chino

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                          Think Corvair or O200 Rene after flying your Q hot rod a VW will be a big
                          dissapointment. For a lot of reliability over a maxed out VW.

                          Regards,

                          One Sky Dog


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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