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RE: [DragonSeedLegacy] Franco-Chinese War

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  • qpwoeiru134679 .
    The Franco-Chinese War lasted from 1884 to 1885. ... wait a sec... annam and tonkin? aren t those OUTside china? why would china give them up? tony
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 7, 2004
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      The Franco-Chinese War lasted from 1884 to 1885.
      >It ended with China giving up its sovereignty over Annam and Tonkin.
      >
      >The treaty ending the war was signed on June 9, 1885.
      >
      >These territories were later included into French Indochina.
      >


      wait a sec... annam and tonkin? aren't those OUTside china? why would
      china "give" them up?

      tony

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    • kitmengleong
      Hehe, hi Tony, I don t know for sure coz I m still reading up on this but I have two theories on this. 1. The Chinese have held Annam on and off throughout the
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 7, 2004
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        Hehe, hi Tony,

        I don't know for sure coz I'm still reading up on this but I have
        two theories on this.

        1. The Chinese have held Annam on and off throughout the centuries
        and the Qing certainly did hold on to large parts of what is now
        Northern Vietnam. This might be the latest event that pulled Annam
        and Tonkin out of China (yet again).
        2. The Chinese didn't actually control Annam but instead it was
        under the Vietnamese King who paid tribute to the Qing. Chinese
        dynasties tend to consider vassal states part of the empire.

        Maybe it was even a combination of the two.

        Need to read more on this first. Maybe in the meantime Ty can
        comment? He should know more on this.

        Jieming
        DragonSeedLegacy
        ChineseCultureOnline

        --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "qpwoeiru134679 ."
        <qpwoeiru134679@h...> wrote:
        > The Franco-Chinese War lasted from 1884 to 1885.
        > >It ended with China giving up its sovereignty over Annam and
        Tonkin.
        > >
        > >The treaty ending the war was signed on June 9, 1885.
        > >
        > >These territories were later included into French Indochina.
        > >
        >
        >
        > wait a sec... annam and tonkin? aren't those OUTside china? why
        would
        > china "give" them up?
        >
        > tony
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
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        SmartScreen
        > Technology.
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        ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Ma
        rket_MSNIS_Taglines
        > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and
        get the
        > first two months FREE*.
      • kitmengleong
        Tony, if you look at the maps of China in the Chronology of Chinese History and Culture , you ll notice that the northern part of today s Vietnam was part of
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 7, 2004
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          Tony, if you look at the maps of China in the "Chronology of Chinese
          History and Culture", you'll notice that the northern part of today's
          Vietnam was part of China since the Yuan dynasty through to the Qing
          and the Republic of China. This area exited China only during the
          French rule of IndoChina and subsequent passage into North Vietnam.
          China clashed with the Vietnamese on several occasions for reasons
          largely only known to the Chinese themselves but were never really
          very successful, notably in 1979 and then again in 1984.

          China has border disputes all around it's borders, and though they
          have by and large abided by the treaties and border agreements in
          place, they do on occasion tend to bully those with a weaker ability
          to defend their border claims, militarily as well as politically.

          The Sino-Indian border is still contested with the Chinese holding the
          upper hand after defeating India in a series of border skirmishes and
          one full blown war in 1962.

          China has concluded border agreements with the new independant
          ex-soviet republics on it's western borders with many concessions
          going to China in return for stability and recognition of, and for
          China to drop claims to the region.

          Taiwan... well, nuff said about Taiwan.

          The Japanese occupied string of islands between Taiwan and the
          Japanese islands have been making main headlines news.

          The Sino-Russian border. Ah, a big can of worms. China fought the
          USSR on a few occasions to stalemates in most cases. The Soviet Union
          in principle agreed with China that Chinese territories seized by
          Tsarist forces during the Qing dynasty will not be valid and the
          territories will be returned to China especially along the Amur river.
          However, the Soviets backpedalled and stalled until today. With the
          demise of the USSR, there is now a lack of clarity on where the
          Russian government stands on this.

          The Sino-Mongolian border. China very early on, prompted by fraternal
          ties with Soviet Russian, recognised the Peoples Republic of Mongolia.
          This is probably the most stable of Chinese borders. However, the
          Mongolians have leaned towards the Russians and continue to align
          themselves northward to counter possible future Chinese claims to the
          region. Not sure what will happen here.

          Spratly & Paracel islands are claimed both in part and in full by
          China, Vietnam, Phillipines, Malaysia & Brunei. China, Vietnam,
          Phillipines and Malaysia all have military/civilian structures on
          various islands. This area has rich undersea oil reserves and I doubt
          any country will back down easily.

          Maoist rebels are still fighting the Nepalist government for control
          of this himalayan nation.

          The Sino-Burmese border is calm though very, very porous. I suspect
          the relatively stable border situation is due not so much from a lack
          of contested territories but rather because of the Sino-centric stance
          of the Burmese regime.

          Jieming
          DragonSeedLegacy
          ChineseCultureOnline



          --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "qpwoeiru134679 ."
          <qpwoeiru134679@h...> wrote:
          > The Franco-Chinese War lasted from 1884 to 1885.
          > >It ended with China giving up its sovereignty over Annam and Tonkin.
          > >
          > >The treaty ending the war was signed on June 9, 1885.
          > >
          > >These territories were later included into French Indochina.
          > >
          >
          >
          > wait a sec... annam and tonkin? aren't those OUTside china? why would
          > china "give" them up?
          >
          > tony
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft®
          SmartScreen
          > Technology.
          >
          http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=ht=
          tp://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines

          > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the
          > first two months FREE*.
        • qpwoeiru134679 .
          thanks for the info! hey... one thing i ve noticed... Qing included xinjiang and tibet and mongolia and manchuria right? after the 1911 revolution and the
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 8, 2004
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            thanks for the info!

            hey... one thing i've noticed...

            Qing included xinjiang and tibet and mongolia and manchuria right? after
            the 1911 revolution and the creation of a republic, how come only mongolia
            managed to separate?

            and tell me the story of how outer and inner mongolia came to be (split).
            thx!!

            tony

            >From: "kitmengleong" <kmleong@...>
            >Reply-To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
            >To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: [DragonSeedLegacy] Re: Franco-Chinese War
            >Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 06:44:39 -0000
            >
            >Tony, if you look at the maps of China in the "Chronology of
            Chinese
            >History and Culture", you'll notice that the northern part of
            today's
            >Vietnam was part of China since the Yuan dynasty through to the Qing
            >and the Republic of China. This area exited China only during the
            >French rule of IndoChina and subsequent passage into North Vietnam.
            >China clashed with the Vietnamese on several occasions for reasons
            >largely only known to the Chinese themselves but were never really
            >very successful, notably in 1979 and then again in 1984.
            >
            >China has border disputes all around it's borders, and though they
            >have by and large abided by the treaties and border agreements in
            >place, they do on occasion tend to bully those with a weaker ability
            >to defend their border claims, militarily as well as politically.
            >
            >The Sino-Indian border is still contested with the Chinese holding the
            >upper hand after defeating India in a series of border skirmishes and
            >one full blown war in 1962.
            >
            >China has concluded border agreements with the new independant
            >ex-soviet republics on it's western borders with many concessions
            >going to China in return for stability and recognition of, and for
            >China to drop claims to the region.
            >
            >Taiwan... well, nuff said about Taiwan.
            >
            >The Japanese occupied string of islands between Taiwan and the
            >Japanese islands have been making main headlines news.
            >
            >The Sino-Russian border. Ah, a big can of worms. China fought the
            >USSR on a few occasions to stalemates in most cases. The Soviet Union
            >in principle agreed with China that Chinese territories seized by
            >Tsarist forces during the Qing dynasty will not be valid and the
            >territories will be returned to China especially along the Amur river.
            > However, the Soviets backpedalled and stalled until today. With the
            >demise of the USSR, there is now a lack of clarity on where the
            >Russian government stands on this.
            >
            >The Sino-Mongolian border. China very early on, prompted by fraternal
            >ties with Soviet Russian, recognised the Peoples Republic of Mongolia.
            > This is probably the most stable of Chinese borders. However, the
            >Mongolians have leaned towards the Russians and continue to align
            >themselves northward to counter possible future Chinese claims to the
            >region. Not sure what will happen here.
            >
            >Spratly & Paracel islands are claimed both in part and in full by
            >China, Vietnam, Phillipines, Malaysia & Brunei. China, Vietnam,
            >Phillipines and Malaysia all have military/civilian structures on
            >various islands. This area has rich undersea oil reserves and I doubt
            >any country will back down easily.
            >
            >Maoist rebels are still fighting the Nepalist government for control
            >of this himalayan nation.
            >
            >The Sino-Burmese border is calm though very, very porous. I suspect
            >the relatively stable border situation is due not so much from a lack
            >of contested territories but rather because of the Sino-centric stance
            >of the Burmese regime.
            >
            >Jieming
            >DragonSeedLegacy
            >ChineseCultureOnline
            >
            >
            >
            >--- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "qpwoeiru134679 ."
            ><qpwoeiru134679@h...> wrote:
            > > The Franco-Chinese War lasted from 1884 to 1885.
            > > &gt;It ended with China giving up its sovereignty over Annam
            and Tonkin.
            > > &gt;
            > > &gt;The treaty ending the war was signed on June 9, 1885.
            > > &gt;
            > > &gt;These territories were later included into French
            Indochina.
            > > &gt;
            > >
            > >
            > > wait a sec... annam and tonkin? aren't those OUTside china? why
            would
            > > china "give" them up?
            > >
            > > tony
            > >
            > > _________________________________________________________________
            > > Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft�
            >SmartScreen
            > > Technology.
            > >
            >http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=ht=
            >tp://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
            >
            > > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN� Premium right now and
            get the
            > > first two months FREE*.
            >

            _________________________________________________________________
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          • kitmengleong
            Hi Christine, This is proving rather frustrating as the various reports/articles are inconsistent on many points, but I think there is a Taiwan connection
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 8, 2004
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              Hi Christine,

              This is proving rather frustrating as the various reports/articles
              are inconsistent on many points, but I think there is a Taiwan
              connection here. According to one article, the French blockaded
              Taiwan island in retaliation for the Qing troop involvement in Vietnam
              to help expel the French.

              Hehehe, off to a side, no disrespect intended to the French, but why
              do they always seem to lose wars? Quebec, Algeria, Indochina, WW2...
              ok, ok I just remembered Napoleon who went all the way to Moscow and
              Egypt... maybe not all wars.

              Jieming
              DragonSeedLegacy
              ChineseCultureOnline


              --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "Christine"
              <tineypandabear@y...> wrote:
              > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong"
              > <kmleong@a...> wrote:
              > > Hi Christine, I have been reading the links you provided and I
              > think
              > > I now understand what happened. The Chinese were invited in to
              > help
              > > the Vietnamese king to expell the French. The Chinese won the war
              > > but in the 1960s the French used this war as an excuse to take
              > Annam
              > > and Tonkin.
              > >
              > > Is my interpretation of events correct here?
              > >
              > > Jieming
              > >
              > >

              > I havent read them thoroughly yet.
            • kitmengleong
              Hi Tony, that s a lot of history you ve just covered in your request. :-) I ll have to come back to that and treat them separately, Xinjiang, Tibet and
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 8, 2004
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                Hi Tony, that's a lot of history you've just covered in your request.
                :-) I'll have to come back to that and treat them separately,
                Xinjiang, Tibet and Mongolia.

                Jieming
                DragonSeedLegacy
                ChineseCultureOnline


                --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "qpwoeiru134679 ."
                <qpwoeiru134679@h...> wrote:
                > thanks for the info!
                >
                > hey... one thing i've noticed...
                >
                > Qing included xinjiang and tibet and mongolia and manchuria right?
                after
                > the 1911 revolution and the creation of a republic, how come only
                mongolia
                > managed to separate?
                >
                > and tell me the story of how outer and inner mongolia came to be
                (split).
                > thx!!
                >
                > tony
                >
                > >From: "kitmengleong" kmleong@a...
                > >Reply-To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                > >To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                > >Subject: [DragonSeedLegacy] Re: Franco-Chinese War
                > >Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 06:44:39 -0000
                > >
                > >Tony, if you look at the maps of China in the "Chronology of
                > Chinese
                > >History and Culture", you'll notice that the northern part of
                > today's
                > >Vietnam was part of China since the Yuan dynasty through to the Qing
                > >and the Republic of China. This area exited China only during the
                > >French rule of IndoChina and subsequent passage into North Vietnam.
                > >China clashed with the Vietnamese on several occasions for reasons
                > >largely only known to the Chinese themselves but were never really
                > >very successful, notably in 1979 and then again in 1984.
                > >
                > >China has border disputes all around it's borders, and though they
                > >have by and large abided by the treaties and border agreements in
                > >place, they do on occasion tend to bully those with a weaker ability
                > >to defend their border claims, militarily as well as politically.
                > >
                > >The Sino-Indian border is still contested with the Chinese
                holding the
                > >upper hand after defeating India in a series of border
                skirmishes and
                > >one full blown war in 1962.
                > >
                > >China has concluded border agreements with the new independant
                > >ex-soviet republics on it's western borders with many concessions
                > >going to China in return for stability and recognition of, and for
                > >China to drop claims to the region.
                > >
                > >Taiwan... well, nuff said about Taiwan.
                > >
                > >The Japanese occupied string of islands between Taiwan and the
                > >Japanese islands have been making main headlines news.
                > >
                > >The Sino-Russian border. Ah, a big can of worms. China fought the
                > >USSR on a few occasions to stalemates in most cases. The Soviet
                Union
                > >in principle agreed with China that Chinese territories seized by
                > >Tsarist forces during the Qing dynasty will not be valid and the
                > >territories will be returned to China especially along the Amur
                river.
                > > However, the Soviets backpedalled and stalled until today.
                With the
                > >demise of the USSR, there is now a lack of clarity on where the
                > >Russian government stands on this.
                > >
                > >The Sino-Mongolian border. China very early on, prompted by
                fraternal
                > >ties with Soviet Russian, recognised the Peoples Republic of
                Mongolia.
                > > This is probably the most stable of Chinese borders. However, the
                > >Mongolians have leaned towards the Russians and continue to align
                > >themselves northward to counter possible future Chinese claims
                to the
                > >region. Not sure what will happen here.
                > >
                > >Spratly & Paracel islands are claimed both in part and in
                full by
                > >China, Vietnam, Phillipines, Malaysia & Brunei. China, Vietnam,
                > >Phillipines and Malaysia all have military/civilian structures on
                > >various islands. This area has rich undersea oil reserves and I
                doubt
                > >any country will back down easily.
                > >
                > >Maoist rebels are still fighting the Nepalist government for control
                > >of this himalayan nation.
                > >
                > >The Sino-Burmese border is calm though very, very porous. I suspect
                > >the relatively stable border situation is due not so much from a
                lack
                > >of contested territories but rather because of the Sino-centric
                stance
                > >of the Burmese regime.
                > >
                > >Jieming
                > >DragonSeedLegacy
                > >ChineseCultureOnline
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >--- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "qpwoeiru134679
                ."
                > >qpwoeiru134679@h... wrote:
                > > > The Franco-Chinese War lasted from 1884 to 1885.
                > > > &gt;It ended with China giving up its sovereignty over
                Annam
                > and Tonkin.
                > > > &gt;
                > > > &gt;The treaty ending the war was signed on June 9, 1885.
                > > > &gt;
                > > > &gt;These territories were later included into French
                > Indochina.
                > > > &gt;
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > wait a sec... annam and tonkin? aren't those OUTside
                china? why
                > would
                > > > china "give" them up?
                > > >
                > > > tony
                > > >
                > > >
                _________________________________________________________________
                > > > Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft®
                > >SmartScreen
                > > > Technology.
                > > >
                >
                >http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&a=
                mp;DI=1034&SU=ht=
                > >tp://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
                > >
                > > > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right
                now and
                > get the
                > > > first two months FREE*.
                > >
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
                > Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented
                Microsoft®
                > SmartScreen Technology.
                >
                http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=ht=
                tp://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines

                > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the
                > first two months FREE*.
              • Jane
                That is interesting. SOme members in the group are from the Europe and might know France better and can offer an insight of what a people the French is. Now
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 8, 2004
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                  That is interesting. SOme members in the group are from the Europe and might know France better and can offer an insight of what a people the French is. Now the French seems to be anti-war in general.

                  Hehe,, i hope the group members won't complain we are having too much unrelevant discussions. May I be excused please. :)

                  Jane



                  kitmengleong <kmleong@...> wrote:
                  Hehehe, off to a side, no disrespect intended to the French, but why
                  do they always seem to lose wars? Quebec, Algeria, Indochina, WW2...
                  ok, ok I just remembered Napoleon who went all the way to Moscow and
                  Egypt... maybe not all wars.

                  Jieming
                  DragonSeedLegacy
                  ChineseCultureOnline


                  --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "Christine"
                  <tineypandabear@y...> wrote:
                  > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong"
                  > <kmleong@a...> wrote:
                  > > Hi Christine, I have been reading the links you provided and I
                  > think
                  > > I now understand what happened. The Chinese were invited in to
                  > help
                  > > the Vietnamese king to expell the French. The Chinese won the war
                  > > but in the 1960s the French used this war as an excuse to take
                  > Annam
                  > > and Tonkin.
                  > >
                  > > Is my interpretation of events correct here?
                  > >
                  > > Jieming
                  > >
                  > >

                  > I havent read them thoroughly yet.



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                • qpwoeiru134679 .
                  thx! looking forward to learning more from you. tony ... "Chronology of ... northern part of ... to the Qing ... during the ... Vietnam. ... reasons ...
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 8, 2004
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                    thx! looking forward to learning more from you.

                    tony

                    >From: "kitmengleong" <kmleong@...>
                    >Reply-To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: [DragonSeedLegacy] Re: Franco-Chinese War
                    >Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 08:48:47 -0000
                    >
                    >Hi Tony, that's a lot of history you've just covered in your request.
                    > :-) I'll have to come back to that and treat them separately,
                    >Xinjiang, Tibet and Mongolia.
                    >
                    >Jieming
                    >DragonSeedLegacy
                    >ChineseCultureOnline
                    >
                    >
                    >--- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "qpwoeiru134679 ."
                    ><qpwoeiru134679@h...> wrote:
                    > > thanks for the info!
                    > >
                    > > hey... one thing i've noticed...
                    > >
                    > > Qing included xinjiang and tibet and mongolia and manchuria right?
                    > after
                    > > the 1911 revolution and the creation of a republic, how come only
                    >mongolia
                    > > managed to separate?
                    > >
                    > > and tell me the story of how outer and inner mongolia came to be
                    >(split).
                    > > thx!!
                    > >
                    > > tony
                    > >
                    > > &gt;From: &quot;kitmengleong&quot; kmleong@a...
                    > > &gt;Reply-To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                    > > &gt;To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                    > > &gt;Subject: [DragonSeedLegacy] Re: Franco-Chinese War
                    > > &gt;Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 06:44:39 -0000
                    > > &gt;
                    > > &gt;Tony, if you look at the maps of China in the
                    &quot;Chronology of
                    > > Chinese
                    > > &gt;History and Culture&quot;, you'll notice that the
                    northern part of
                    > > today's
                    > > &gt;Vietnam was part of China since the Yuan dynasty through
                    to the Qing
                    > > &gt;and the Republic of China. This area exited China only
                    during the
                    > > &gt;French rule of IndoChina and subsequent passage into North
                    Vietnam.
                    > > &gt;China clashed with the Vietnamese on several occasions for
                    reasons
                    > > &gt;largely only known to the Chinese themselves but were
                    never really
                    > > &gt;very successful, notably in 1979 and then again in 1984.
                    > > &gt;
                    > > &gt;China has border disputes all around it's borders, and
                    though they
                    > > &gt;have by and large abided by the treaties and border
                    agreements in
                    > > &gt;place, they do on occasion tend to bully those with a
                    weaker ability
                    > > &gt;to defend their border claims, militarily as well as
                    politically.
                    > > &gt;
                    > > &gt;The Sino-Indian border is still contested with the Chinese
                    >holding the
                    > > &gt;upper hand after defeating India in a series of border
                    >skirmishes and
                    > > &gt;one full blown war in 1962.
                    > > &gt;
                    > > &gt;China has concluded border agreements with the new
                    independant
                    > > &gt;ex-soviet republics on it's western borders with many
                    concessions
                    > > &gt;going to China in return for stability and recognition of,
                    and for
                    > > &gt;China to drop claims to the region.
                    > > &gt;
                    > > &gt;Taiwan... well, nuff said about Taiwan.
                    > > &gt;
                    > > &gt;The Japanese occupied string of islands between Taiwan and
                    the
                    > > &gt;Japanese islands have been making main headlines news.
                    > > &gt;
                    > > &gt;The Sino-Russian border. Ah, a big can of worms. China
                    fought the
                    > > &gt;USSR on a few occasions to stalemates in most cases. The
                    Soviet
                    >Union
                    > > &gt;in principle agreed with China that Chinese territories
                    seized by
                    > > &gt;Tsarist forces during the Qing dynasty will not be valid
                    and the
                    > > &gt;territories will be returned to China especially along the
                    Amur
                    >river.
                    > > &gt; However, the Soviets backpedalled and stalled until
                    today.
                    >With the
                    > > &gt;demise of the USSR, there is now a lack of clarity on
                    where the
                    > > &gt;Russian government stands on this.
                    > > &gt;
                    > > &gt;The Sino-Mongolian border. China very early on, prompted
                    by
                    >fraternal
                    > > &gt;ties with Soviet Russian, recognised the Peoples Republic
                    of
                    >Mongolia.
                    > > &gt; This is probably the most stable of Chinese borders.
                    However, the
                    > > &gt;Mongolians have leaned towards the Russians and continue
                    to align
                    > > &gt;themselves northward to counter possible future Chinese
                    claims
                    >to the
                    > > &gt;region. Not sure what will happen here.
                    > > &gt;
                    > > &gt;Spratly &amp; Paracel islands are claimed both in part
                    and in
                    >full by
                    > > &gt;China, Vietnam, Phillipines, Malaysia &amp; Brunei.
                    China, Vietnam,
                    > > &gt;Phillipines and Malaysia all have military/civilian
                    structures on
                    > > &gt;various islands. This area has rich undersea oil reserves
                    and I
                    >doubt
                    > > &gt;any country will back down easily.
                    > > &gt;
                    > > &gt;Maoist rebels are still fighting the Nepalist government
                    for control
                    > > &gt;of this himalayan nation.
                    > > &gt;
                    > > &gt;The Sino-Burmese border is calm though very, very porous.
                    I suspect
                    > > &gt;the relatively stable border situation is due not so much
                    from a
                    >lack
                    > > &gt;of contested territories but rather because of the
                    Sino-centric
                    >stance
                    > > &gt;of the Burmese regime.
                    > > &gt;
                    > > &gt;Jieming
                    > > &gt;DragonSeedLegacy
                    > > &gt;ChineseCultureOnline
                    > > &gt;
                    > > &gt;
                    > > &gt;
                    > > &gt;--- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com,
                    &quot;qpwoeiru134679
                    >.&quot;
                    > > &gt;qpwoeiru134679@h... wrote:
                    > > &gt; &gt; The Franco-Chinese War lasted from 1884 to 1885.
                    > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;It ended with China giving up its
                    sovereignty over
                    >Annam
                    > > and Tonkin.
                    > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;
                    > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;The treaty ending the war was signed
                    on June 9, 1885.
                    > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;
                    > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;These territories were later
                    included into French
                    > > Indochina.
                    > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;
                    > > &gt; &gt;
                    > > &gt; &gt;
                    > > &gt; &gt; wait a sec... annam and tonkin? aren't those
                    OUTside
                    >china? why
                    > > would
                    > > &gt; &gt; china &quot;give&quot; them up?
                    > > &gt; &gt;
                    > > &gt; &gt; tony
                    > > &gt; &gt;
                    > > &gt; &gt;
                    >_________________________________________________________________
                    > > &gt; &gt; Take charge with a pop-up guard built on
                    patented Microsoft�
                    > > &gt;SmartScreen
                    > > &gt; &gt; Technology.
                    > > &gt; &gt;
                    > >
                    >&gt;http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&amp;page=byoa/prem&amp;xAPID=1994&a=
                    >mp;DI=1034&amp;SU=ht=
                    > > &gt;tp://hotmail.com/enca&amp;HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
                    > > &gt;
                    > > &gt; &gt; Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN�
                    Premium right
                    >now and
                    > > get the
                    > > &gt; &gt; first two months FREE*.
                    > > &gt;
                    > >
                    > > _________________________________________________________________
                    > > Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented
                    >Microsoft�
                    > > SmartScreen Technology.
                    > >
                    >http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=ht=
                    >tp://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
                    >
                    > > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN� Premium right now and
                    get the
                    > > first two months FREE*.
                    >

                    _________________________________________________________________
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                  • kitmengleong
                    Likewise Tony, likewise.Jieming DragonSeedLegacy ChineseCultureOnline--- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, qpwoeiru134679 .
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 8, 2004
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                      Likewise Tony, likewise.

                      Jieming
                      DragonSeedLegacy
                      ChineseCultureOnline



                      --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "qpwoeiru134679 ."
                      <qpwoeiru134679@h...> wrote:
                      > thx! looking forward to learning more from you.
                      >
                      > tony
                      >
                      > >From: "kitmengleong" kmleong@a...
                      > >Reply-To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                      > >To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                      > >Subject: [DragonSeedLegacy] Re: Franco-Chinese War
                      > >Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 08:48:47 -0000
                      > >
                      > >Hi Tony, that's a lot of history you've just covered in your
                      request.
                      > > :-) I'll have to come back to that and treat them separately,
                      > >Xinjiang, Tibet and Mongolia.
                      > >
                      > >Jieming
                      > >DragonSeedLegacy
                      > >ChineseCultureOnline
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >--- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "qpwoeiru134679
                      ."
                      > >qpwoeiru134679@h... wrote:
                      > > > thanks for the info!
                      > > >
                      > > > hey... one thing i've noticed...
                      > > >
                      > > > Qing included xinjiang and tibet and mongolia and
                      manchuria right?
                      > > after
                      > > > the 1911 revolution and the creation of a republic, how
                      come only
                      > >mongolia
                      > > > managed to separate?
                      > > >
                      > > > and tell me the story of how outer and inner mongolia came
                      to be
                      > >(split).
                      > > > thx!!
                      > > >
                      > > > tony
                      > > >
                      > > > &gt;From: &quot;kitmengleong&quot; kmleong@a...
                      > > > &gt;Reply-To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > &gt;To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > &gt;Subject: [DragonSeedLegacy] Re: Franco-Chinese War
                      > > > &gt;Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 06:44:39 -0000
                      > > > &gt;
                      > > > &gt;Tony, if you look at the maps of China in the
                      > &quot;Chronology of
                      > > > Chinese
                      > > > &gt;History and Culture&quot;, you'll notice that the
                      > northern part of
                      > > > today's
                      > > > &gt;Vietnam was part of China since the Yuan dynasty
                      through
                      > to the Qing
                      > > > &gt;and the Republic of China. This area exited China
                      only
                      > during the
                      > > > &gt;French rule of IndoChina and subsequent passage
                      into North
                      > Vietnam.
                      > > > &gt;China clashed with the Vietnamese on several
                      occasions for
                      > reasons
                      > > > &gt;largely only known to the Chinese themselves but were
                      > never really
                      > > > &gt;very successful, notably in 1979 and then again in
                      1984.
                      > > > &gt;
                      > > > &gt;China has border disputes all around it's borders,
                      and
                      > though they
                      > > > &gt;have by and large abided by the treaties and border
                      > agreements in
                      > > > &gt;place, they do on occasion tend to bully those with a
                      > weaker ability
                      > > > &gt;to defend their border claims, militarily as well as
                      > politically.
                      > > > &gt;
                      > > > &gt;The Sino-Indian border is still contested with the
                      Chinese
                      > >holding the
                      > > > &gt;upper hand after defeating India in a series of border
                      > >skirmishes and
                      > > > &gt;one full blown war in 1962.
                      > > > &gt;
                      > > > &gt;China has concluded border agreements with the new
                      > independant
                      > > > &gt;ex-soviet republics on it's western borders with many
                      > concessions
                      > > > &gt;going to China in return for stability and
                      recognition of,
                      > and for
                      > > > &gt;China to drop claims to the region.
                      > > > &gt;
                      > > > &gt;Taiwan... well, nuff said about Taiwan.
                      > > > &gt;
                      > > > &gt;The Japanese occupied string of islands between
                      Taiwan and
                      > the
                      > > > &gt;Japanese islands have been making main headlines news.
                      > > > &gt;
                      > > > &gt;The Sino-Russian border. Ah, a big can of worms.
                      China
                      > fought the
                      > > > &gt;USSR on a few occasions to stalemates in most
                      cases. The
                      > Soviet
                      > >Union
                      > > > &gt;in principle agreed with China that Chinese
                      territories
                      > seized by
                      > > > &gt;Tsarist forces during the Qing dynasty will not be
                      valid
                      > and the
                      > > > &gt;territories will be returned to China especially
                      along the
                      > Amur
                      > >river.
                      > > > &gt; However, the Soviets backpedalled and stalled until
                      > today.
                      > >With the
                      > > > &gt;demise of the USSR, there is now a lack of clarity on
                      > where the
                      > > > &gt;Russian government stands on this.
                      > > > &gt;
                      > > > &gt;The Sino-Mongolian border. China very early on,
                      prompted
                      > by
                      > >fraternal
                      > > > &gt;ties with Soviet Russian, recognised the Peoples
                      Republic
                      > of
                      > >Mongolia.
                      > > > &gt; This is probably the most stable of Chinese
                      borders.
                      > However, the
                      > > > &gt;Mongolians have leaned towards the Russians and
                      continue
                      > to align
                      > > > &gt;themselves northward to counter possible future
                      Chinese
                      > claims
                      > >to the
                      > > > &gt;region. Not sure what will happen here.
                      > > > &gt;
                      > > > &gt;Spratly &amp; Paracel islands are claimed both
                      in part
                      > and in
                      > >full by
                      > > > &gt;China, Vietnam, Phillipines, Malaysia &amp;
                      Brunei.
                      > China, Vietnam,
                      > > > &gt;Phillipines and Malaysia all have military/civilian
                      > structures on
                      > > > &gt;various islands. This area has rich undersea oil
                      reserves
                      > and I
                      > >doubt
                      > > > &gt;any country will back down easily.
                      > > > &gt;
                      > > > &gt;Maoist rebels are still fighting the Nepalist
                      government
                      > for control
                      > > > &gt;of this himalayan nation.
                      > > > &gt;
                      > > > &gt;The Sino-Burmese border is calm though very, very
                      porous.
                      > I suspect
                      > > > &gt;the relatively stable border situation is due not
                      so much
                      > from a
                      > >lack
                      > > > &gt;of contested territories but rather because of the
                      > Sino-centric
                      > >stance
                      > > > &gt;of the Burmese regime.
                      > > > &gt;
                      > > > &gt;Jieming
                      > > > &gt;DragonSeedLegacy
                      > > > &gt;ChineseCultureOnline
                      > > > &gt;
                      > > > &gt;
                      > > > &gt;
                      > > > &gt;--- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com,
                      > &quot;qpwoeiru134679
                      > >.&quot;
                      > > > &gt;qpwoeiru134679@h... wrote:
                      > > > &gt; &gt; The Franco-Chinese War lasted from 1884
                      to 1885.
                      > > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;It ended with China giving
                      up its
                      > sovereignty over
                      > >Annam
                      > > > and Tonkin.
                      > > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;
                      > > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;The treaty ending the war
                      was signed
                      > on June 9, 1885.
                      > > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;
                      > > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;These territories were later
                      > included into French
                      > > > Indochina.
                      > > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;
                      > > > &gt; &gt;
                      > > > &gt; &gt;
                      > > > &gt; &gt; wait a sec... annam and tonkin? aren't
                      those
                      > OUTside
                      > >china? why
                      > > > would
                      > > > &gt; &gt; china &quot;give&quot; them up?
                      > > > &gt; &gt;
                      > > > &gt; &gt; tony
                      > > > &gt; &gt;
                      > > > &gt; &gt;
                      > >_________________________________________________________________
                      > > > &gt; &gt; Take charge with a pop-up guard built on
                      > patented Microsoft®
                      > > > &gt;SmartScreen
                      > > > &gt; &gt; Technology.
                      > > > &gt; &gt;
                      > > >
                      >
                      >&gt;http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&amp;page=byoa/prem&=
                      amp;xAPID=1994&a=
                      > >mp;DI=1034&amp;SU=ht=
                      > > > &gt;tp://hotmail.com/enca&amp;HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
                      > > > &gt;
                      > > > &gt; &gt; Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN®
                      > Premium right
                      > >now and
                      > > > get the
                      > > > &gt; &gt; first two months FREE*.
                      > > > &gt;
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      _________________________________________________________________
                      > > > Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on
                      patented
                      > >Microsoft®
                      > > > SmartScreen Technology.
                      > > >
                      >
                      >http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&a=
                      mp;DI=1034&SU=ht=
                      > >tp://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
                      > >
                      > > > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right
                      now and
                      > get the
                      > > > first two months FREE*.
                      > >
                      >
                      > _________________________________________________________________
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                      The new
                      > MSN Search! Check it out!
                    • kitmengleong
                      Chang Chien (Zhang Qian) - The Man who discovered Europe Excerpt from Lords of the Rim , Bantam Press 1995, Peggy & Sterling Seagrave. This was the first
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 12, 2004
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                        Chang Chien (Zhang Qian) - The Man who 'discovered' Europe

                        Excerpt from "Lords of the Rim", Bantam Press 1995, Peggy & Sterling
                        Seagrave.

                        "This was the first time China looked outward. As the Han domain
                        spread far and wide, ambitious young men began careers as
                        explorers. One who ventured bravely across the steppes of Central
                        Asia in 139 BC - fourteen centuries befor Marco Polo and sixteen
                        centuries before Columbus - 'discovered' Europe, the Mediterranean
                        and the Alantic Ocean. Thanks to Chang Chien's reconnaissance,
                        nomad raids diminished and the first garrisioned Silk Roads were
                        established between China and the West. Another trade route through
                        Burma to Siam and India (long used secretly by Chinese merchants)
                        was officially identified. And the sea route from South China
                        across the Indian Ocean to Arabia and Africa was found to be seeded
                        already with small Overseas Chinese merchant colonies more than two
                        thousand years ago.
                        Before Chang Chien's secret mission, the Chinese government knew
                        and cared little about what lay beyond its borders. The treeless
                        steppes spread like a broad superhighway from Mongolia to Bulgaria,
                        the killing field of wild nmad cavalries. As far back as 3000BC
                        merchants in Mesopotamia, Persia and India started long-distance
                        caravan trade with each other around the Asian mountain ranges.
                        Raiding these caravans and isolated trading posts provided an easy
                        source of food and luxuries to the nomads. Over the ages they
                        struck in wave after wave, from the Cimmerians and Scythians to the
                        Huns and Mongols. They swarmed out of nowhere, massacred villages
                        on the edges of the steppes, then vanished.
                        On China's borders, the most aggressive of these nomads were the
                        Hsiung-nu, who ruled the wastes from the Pamirs to Siberia. They
                        led as many as three hundred thousand horsemen at a time in
                        homicidal raids on border cities, killing for fun. The Chinese were
                        unable to wage long punitive campaigns deep into the deserts or
                        steppes because hundreds of wagon teams were needed to carry
                        provisions for as little as three months. When they withdrew, the
                        nomads simply resumed their guerrilla raids. In the Han Dynasty a
                        new alliance of Hsiung-nu tribes brought a fresh wave of fear to
                        outlying districts. As first the Han emperors chose the soft
                        weapon, by sending frightened pricesses to the nomad Son-of-Heaven,
                        or Shan-yu, but efforts to buy a lasting peace failed because
                        centuries of conflict had made a tradtition of treachery.
                        Prospects improved when Emperor Wu-ti learned of a split in nomad
                        ranks. A prisoner reported that the Hsiung-nu had murdered the
                        ruler of the tribe called the Yueh-chih, and disgraced his spirit by
                        using his skull as a drinking cup. The Yueh-chih, who had then fled
                        westward across the desert with a burning grudge, might no be
                        willing to ally with China against the Hsiung-nu.
                        The emperor decided to send a secret agent to sound them out.
                        Among the officers who applied for the job was Chang Chien. A tough
                        and intelligent soldier, he was a perfect scout because his good
                        nature assured him of a warm welcome wherever he went. He was given
                        the official role of ambassador and set out with a retimue of a
                        hundred guided by a Hsiung-nu prisoner named Kan-fu, an expert
                        archer who knew secret sources of water in the desert.
                        Personally, Chang Chien was motivated by curiousity as much as by
                        ambition. At a time when expanding the empire was a fashionable
                        idea, a poor but talented man could make his fortune while
                        satisfying his own craving for adventure.
                        Few Chinese had ever gone by choice into the steppes or acress the
                        trackless wastes of the Takla Makan and Gobi deserts. During times
                        of chaos and insurrection, educated Chinese mandarins or generals
                        sometimes defected to the nomads or to the southern barbarians.
                        Mountain passes in the north, west and south were convenient
                        doorways to safety...
                        Chang Chien's party travelled west for many days, crossing deserts
                        and mountain ranges until, deep in nomad territory, they were
                        ambused and taken before the maximum leader, the Shan-yu. He
                        thought their whole mission was ridiculous: 'Do you suppose that if
                        I tried to send an embassy to the kingdom of Yueh, that the Han
                        would let my men pass through China?'
                        He put Chang Chient under house arrest for the next ten years,
                        looked after by the faithful servant Kan-fu. To help pass the time,
                        Chang Chient was given as beautiful nomad wife, who bore him a
                        strapping son. Eventually the warriors stopped guarding him
                        closely, and Chang Chient fled with his wife and son and servant to
                        continue his sacred mission to the west.
                        Riding as fast as they could to Ferghana, in what is now
                        Tadzhikistan and Uzbekistan, they were made welcome by its king, who
                        provided them with guides and interpreters for the next leg of their
                        journey. Eventually Chang Chien caught up with the displaced Yueh-
                        chih people, the original goal of his secret mission. He found them
                        totally changed. In the intervening years, they had captured the
                        rich region of Bactria south of the Oxus River and made themselves
                        its new rulers, living a sensual and indulgent life at the expense
                        of its people. The last thing they wanted was to forfeit this
                        pleasant existense to resure their old blood feud with the Hsiung-
                        nu. As to avenging their dead king whose skull had been used as a
                        drinking cup - his son was no longer interested.
                        Bactria, which sprawled from the Caspian Sea down past the Hindu
                        Kush to the frontier of India, had just been abandoned by the Greeks
                        as the last vestiges of Alexander the Great's empire collapsed.
                        There were still many Hellenes in Bactria, so at this moment ancient
                        China was brushing its fingertips against those of ancient Greece.
                        Chang Chient learned things no CHinse officer before him had ever
                        known. After a year in Bactria gathering exotic intelligence, he
                        resigned himself to the failure of his original mission and began
                        the long trek back to China, hoping that the things he ahd heared
                        about the West would keep his head on his shoulders. He took a
                        route from Afghanistan through the Hindu Kush, along the northern
                        slope of the Himalayas to eastern Tibet. He planned to give the
                        Hsiung-nu a wide berth and re-enter China from Tibet, through the
                        teritory of the less dangerous Chiang barbarians. But as he and his
                        tiny party were crossing the high desert above the great salt marsh
                        called Lop Nor, a lunar landscape well known in those days only to
                        small herds of wild Tibetan ass, he was ambushed once more by the
                        wily Hsiung-nu and detained for another year.
                        The leathery old Shan-yu who had been his host during his previous
                        captivity chose that awkward moment to die. A rival chief attached
                        and set himself up as the new ruler of the nomad federation. IN the
                        midst of this turmoil, Chang Chien once again fled into the night
                        with his family and his trusty servant.
                        Reaching the imperial court after an arduous mission lasting
                        thirteen years in all, Chang Chien regaled Emperor Wu-ti for days
                        and nights with his reports of places far and strange. Instead of
                        losing his head, he was rewarded with the post of palace
                        counsellor. Kan-fu, the former slave, was given the title 'Lord Who
                        Carries Out His Missions'.
                        Chang Chien told his emperor about the nomads, the great Takla
                        Makan deser, and the isolated mountain valley of Ferghana where
                        people raised 'horse so magnificent that they sweat blood'. After
                        Ferghana, he reported, all the rivers flowed west into the Caspian
                        and Aral seas, where there are many potential allies against the
                        Hsiung-nu. He talked at length about the Wu-sun nomads, who could
                        muster thirty thousand mounted archers. They were led by Kun-mo, a
                        legendary warrior who, as a child had been left in the desert to die
                        but was saved by vultures that fed him meat, and wolves that suckled
                        him. Beyond were other nomads, with ninety thousand mounted bowmen,
                        and around the Aral Sea were the Yen-tsai with one hundred thousand
                        archers. Together they could form an army nearly a quarter of
                        million strong.
                        The emperor listened spellbound to Chang Chien's accounts of
                        Bactria, and a kingdom to the south-west called Persia, whose people
                        lived in walled cities and kept records by writing horizontally on
                        strips of leather. Among the Persians were merchants from
                        Mesopotamia, and from a great western sea, the Mediterranean.
                        Beyond, in a regions that was very hot and damp, were giant birds
                        that laid eggs as big as cooking pots. Still farther, beyond the
                        Mediterranean, were other countires and a great ocean.
                        'In my travels, I saw bamboo canes and cloth from our regions of
                        Chiung and Chu (Szechuan),' Chang Chien told the emperor. 'When I
                        asked how they obtained such articles they told me "Our merchants go
                        and buy them in the markets of India."' India, he had learned, was
                        a hot, wet kingdom on the great river south-east of Persia, whose
                        people rode war elephants into battle. 'Now if the Indians obtain
                        trade goods from south-western China, they cannot be far. Instead
                        of trying to reach India by crossing the deserts of the mountains to
                        the west, a more direct route would be south by way of Shu.'
                        ....
                        In recognition of his many discoveries, Chang Chien was given the
                        title Marquis Po-wang ("Broad Vision"). he took part in various
                        military campaigns against the Hsiung-nu, but misfortune struck when
                        he arrived late at a rendezvous, and found that his general's army
                        had been wiped out. Disgraced and sentenced to die, Chang Chien was
                        allowed to live only on the condition that he pay a stiff fine and
                        give up his noble title.
                        A chance to redeem himself came when Emperor Wu-ti asked him to
                        set out once again far to the west to secure the alliance he had
                        propsed with the Wu-sun nomads in Turkestan. He was to offer their
                        leader, Kun-mo, rich gifts and bribes to attack the Hsiung-nu from
                        the rear. A treaty between China and the Wu-sun would intimidate
                        everyone, the emperor said, and they would all grovel at China's
                        feet and send tribute.
                        This time Chang Chien went well prepared, with three hundred
                        soldiers, six hundred horses, tens of thousands of cattle and sheep,
                        and wagonloads of gold and silk as gifts. When the caravan reached
                        Turkestan, Kun-mo was thunderstruck by the sigh of these riches but
                        refused to consider an alliance. Chang Chien stopped his men from
                        unloading: 'The Son of Heaven sent me with these gifts, and if you
                        do not prostrate yourself immediately to receive them, I will take
                        them all back!" This was too much for the ragged nomad chief, who
                        threw himself down and offered to sign anything. Before he could
                        change his mind, Chang Chien returned to China with the treaty and
                        was awarded with the title Grand Messanger. He died peacefully a
                        year of so afterward, happy and revered, one of the world's great
                        early explorers.
                        Thanks to his pioneering travels, sweetened with the bribes only
                        an emperor could dispense, emissaries arrived in China from India
                        and Persia For the first time, China established diplomatic and
                        trade relations with nations on the Caspian, and Black Sea, the
                        Mediterranean, and the Indian Ocean, countries that a few years
                        earlier only her much-despised merchants had known existed.
                        Han's new nomad allies, attacking from the west, helped defeat the
                        Hsiung-nu. Emperor Wu-ti personally led a victory parade to
                        celebrate the triumph.
                        Eager to acquire Ferghana horses for his own stables, Wu-ti found
                        the breeders reluctant to share their treasured steeds, so in 104BC
                        he despatched a large Chinese military force beyond the Pamirs,
                        where they had little difficulty persuading Ferghana's rulers to
                        change their minds.
                        Once China's desert frontier was secure, four international trade
                        routes came into regular use - two Silk roads, north and south of
                        the Takla Makan desert, a Jade Road through Burma to India and Siam,
                        and a sea route across the Indian Ocean. Merchants from Roman
                        Europe could venture safely along caravan routes guarded by Han army
                        outposts, stopping in oases where they mingled with Chinese traders.
                        Bolts of shimmering silk became the luxury item most sought after by
                        Roman women."
                      • omabi_us
                        Thanks for taking the time to post this fascinating information! I have seen Chang Chien s name mentioned briefly before and am eager to learn more about him.
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 1, 2006
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                          Thanks for taking the time to post this fascinating information! I
                          have seen Chang Chien's name mentioned briefly before and am eager to
                          learn more about him. Sounds like "Lords of the Rim" might be a great
                          place to begin. Any other suggestions?

                          p.s. I'm delighted to have time to check out Dragon Seed again . . .
                          I've missed you!



                          --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong" <kmleong@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Chang Chien (Zhang Qian) - The Man who 'discovered' Europe
                          >
                          > Excerpt from "Lords of the Rim", Bantam Press 1995, Peggy &
                          Sterling
                          > Seagrave.
                          >
                          > "This was the first time China looked outward. As the Han domain
                          > spread far and wide, ambitious young men began careers as
                          > explorers. One who ventured bravely across the steppes of Central
                          > Asia in 139 BC - fourteen centuries befor Marco Polo and sixteen
                          > centuries before Columbus - 'discovered' Europe, the Mediterranean
                          > and the Alantic Ocean. Thanks to Chang Chien's reconnaissance,
                          > nomad raids diminished and the first garrisioned Silk Roads were
                          > established between China and the West. Another trade route
                          through
                          > Burma to Siam and India (long used secretly by Chinese merchants)
                          > was officially identified. And the sea route from South China
                          > across the Indian Ocean to Arabia and Africa was found to be seeded
                          > already with small Overseas Chinese merchant colonies more than two
                          > thousand years ago.
                          > Before Chang Chien's secret mission, the Chinese government knew
                          > and cared little about what lay beyond its borders. The treeless
                          > steppes spread like a broad superhighway from Mongolia to Bulgaria,
                          > the killing field of wild nmad cavalries. As far back as 3000BC
                          > merchants in Mesopotamia, Persia and India started long-distance
                          > caravan trade with each other around the Asian mountain ranges.
                          > Raiding these caravans and isolated trading posts provided an easy
                          > source of food and luxuries to the nomads. Over the ages they
                          > struck in wave after wave, from the Cimmerians and Scythians to the
                          > Huns and Mongols. They swarmed out of nowhere, massacred villages
                          > on the edges of the steppes, then vanished.
                          > On China's borders, the most aggressive of these nomads were the
                          > Hsiung-nu, who ruled the wastes from the Pamirs to Siberia. They
                          > led as many as three hundred thousand horsemen at a time in
                          > homicidal raids on border cities, killing for fun. The Chinese
                          were
                          > unable to wage long punitive campaigns deep into the deserts or
                          > steppes because hundreds of wagon teams were needed to carry
                          > provisions for as little as three months. When they withdrew, the
                          > nomads simply resumed their guerrilla raids. In the Han Dynasty a
                          > new alliance of Hsiung-nu tribes brought a fresh wave of fear to
                          > outlying districts. As first the Han emperors chose the soft
                          > weapon, by sending frightened pricesses to the nomad Son-of-Heaven,
                          > or Shan-yu, but efforts to buy a lasting peace failed because
                          > centuries of conflict had made a tradtition of treachery.
                          > Prospects improved when Emperor Wu-ti learned of a split in nomad
                          > ranks. A prisoner reported that the Hsiung-nu had murdered the
                          > ruler of the tribe called the Yueh-chih, and disgraced his spirit
                          by
                          > using his skull as a drinking cup. The Yueh-chih, who had then
                          fled
                          > westward across the desert with a burning grudge, might no be
                          > willing to ally with China against the Hsiung-nu.
                          > The emperor decided to send a secret agent to sound them out.
                          > Among the officers who applied for the job was Chang Chien. A
                          tough
                          > and intelligent soldier, he was a perfect scout because his good
                          > nature assured him of a warm welcome wherever he went. He was
                          given
                          > the official role of ambassador and set out with a retimue of a
                          > hundred guided by a Hsiung-nu prisoner named Kan-fu, an expert
                          > archer who knew secret sources of water in the desert.
                          > Personally, Chang Chien was motivated by curiousity as much as by
                          > ambition. At a time when expanding the empire was a fashionable
                          > idea, a poor but talented man could make his fortune while
                          > satisfying his own craving for adventure.
                          > Few Chinese had ever gone by choice into the steppes or acress
                          the
                          > trackless wastes of the Takla Makan and Gobi deserts. During times
                          > of chaos and insurrection, educated Chinese mandarins or generals
                          > sometimes defected to the nomads or to the southern barbarians.
                          > Mountain passes in the north, west and south were convenient
                          > doorways to safety...
                          > Chang Chien's party travelled west for many days, crossing
                          deserts
                          > and mountain ranges until, deep in nomad territory, they were
                          > ambused and taken before the maximum leader, the Shan-yu. He
                          > thought their whole mission was ridiculous: 'Do you suppose that if
                          > I tried to send an embassy to the kingdom of Yueh, that the Han
                          > would let my men pass through China?'
                          > He put Chang Chient under house arrest for the next ten years,
                          > looked after by the faithful servant Kan-fu. To help pass the
                          time,
                          > Chang Chient was given as beautiful nomad wife, who bore him a
                          > strapping son. Eventually the warriors stopped guarding him
                          > closely, and Chang Chient fled with his wife and son and servant to
                          > continue his sacred mission to the west.
                          > Riding as fast as they could to Ferghana, in what is now
                          > Tadzhikistan and Uzbekistan, they were made welcome by its king,
                          who
                          > provided them with guides and interpreters for the next leg of
                          their
                          > journey. Eventually Chang Chien caught up with the displaced Yueh-
                          > chih people, the original goal of his secret mission. He found
                          them
                          > totally changed. In the intervening years, they had captured the
                          > rich region of Bactria south of the Oxus River and made themselves
                          > its new rulers, living a sensual and indulgent life at the expense
                          > of its people. The last thing they wanted was to forfeit this
                          > pleasant existense to resure their old blood feud with the Hsiung-
                          > nu. As to avenging their dead king whose skull had been used as a
                          > drinking cup - his son was no longer interested.
                          > Bactria, which sprawled from the Caspian Sea down past the Hindu
                          > Kush to the frontier of India, had just been abandoned by the
                          Greeks
                          > as the last vestiges of Alexander the Great's empire collapsed.
                          > There were still many Hellenes in Bactria, so at this moment
                          ancient
                          > China was brushing its fingertips against those of ancient Greece.
                          > Chang Chient learned things no CHinse officer before him had ever
                          > known. After a year in Bactria gathering exotic intelligence, he
                          > resigned himself to the failure of his original mission and began
                          > the long trek back to China, hoping that the things he ahd heared
                          > about the West would keep his head on his shoulders. He took a
                          > route from Afghanistan through the Hindu Kush, along the northern
                          > slope of the Himalayas to eastern Tibet. He planned to give the
                          > Hsiung-nu a wide berth and re-enter China from Tibet, through the
                          > teritory of the less dangerous Chiang barbarians. But as he and
                          his
                          > tiny party were crossing the high desert above the great salt marsh
                          > called Lop Nor, a lunar landscape well known in those days only to
                          > small herds of wild Tibetan ass, he was ambushed once more by the
                          > wily Hsiung-nu and detained for another year.
                          > The leathery old Shan-yu who had been his host during his
                          previous
                          > captivity chose that awkward moment to die. A rival chief attached
                          > and set himself up as the new ruler of the nomad federation. IN
                          the
                          > midst of this turmoil, Chang Chien once again fled into the night
                          > with his family and his trusty servant.
                          > Reaching the imperial court after an arduous mission lasting
                          > thirteen years in all, Chang Chien regaled Emperor Wu-ti for days
                          > and nights with his reports of places far and strange. Instead of
                          > losing his head, he was rewarded with the post of palace
                          > counsellor. Kan-fu, the former slave, was given the title 'Lord
                          Who
                          > Carries Out His Missions'.
                          > Chang Chien told his emperor about the nomads, the great Takla
                          > Makan deser, and the isolated mountain valley of Ferghana where
                          > people raised 'horse so magnificent that they sweat blood'. After
                          > Ferghana, he reported, all the rivers flowed west into the Caspian
                          > and Aral seas, where there are many potential allies against the
                          > Hsiung-nu. He talked at length about the Wu-sun nomads, who could
                          > muster thirty thousand mounted archers. They were led by Kun-mo, a
                          > legendary warrior who, as a child had been left in the desert to
                          die
                          > but was saved by vultures that fed him meat, and wolves that
                          suckled
                          > him. Beyond were other nomads, with ninety thousand mounted
                          bowmen,
                          > and around the Aral Sea were the Yen-tsai with one hundred thousand
                          > archers. Together they could form an army nearly a quarter of
                          > million strong.
                          > The emperor listened spellbound to Chang Chien's accounts of
                          > Bactria, and a kingdom to the south-west called Persia, whose
                          people
                          > lived in walled cities and kept records by writing horizontally on
                          > strips of leather. Among the Persians were merchants from
                          > Mesopotamia, and from a great western sea, the Mediterranean.
                          > Beyond, in a regions that was very hot and damp, were giant birds
                          > that laid eggs as big as cooking pots. Still farther, beyond the
                          > Mediterranean, were other countires and a great ocean.
                          > 'In my travels, I saw bamboo canes and cloth from our regions of
                          > Chiung and Chu (Szechuan),' Chang Chien told the emperor. 'When I
                          > asked how they obtained such articles they told me "Our merchants
                          go
                          > and buy them in the markets of India."' India, he had learned, was
                          > a hot, wet kingdom on the great river south-east of Persia, whose
                          > people rode war elephants into battle. 'Now if the Indians obtain
                          > trade goods from south-western China, they cannot be far. Instead
                          > of trying to reach India by crossing the deserts of the mountains
                          to
                          > the west, a more direct route would be south by way of Shu.'
                          > ....
                          > In recognition of his many discoveries, Chang Chien was given the
                          > title Marquis Po-wang ("Broad Vision"). he took part in various
                          > military campaigns against the Hsiung-nu, but misfortune struck
                          when
                          > he arrived late at a rendezvous, and found that his general's army
                          > had been wiped out. Disgraced and sentenced to die, Chang Chien
                          was
                          > allowed to live only on the condition that he pay a stiff fine and
                          > give up his noble title.
                          > A chance to redeem himself came when Emperor Wu-ti asked him to
                          > set out once again far to the west to secure the alliance he had
                          > propsed with the Wu-sun nomads in Turkestan. He was to offer their
                          > leader, Kun-mo, rich gifts and bribes to attack the Hsiung-nu from
                          > the rear. A treaty between China and the Wu-sun would intimidate
                          > everyone, the emperor said, and they would all grovel at China's
                          > feet and send tribute.
                          > This time Chang Chien went well prepared, with three hundred
                          > soldiers, six hundred horses, tens of thousands of cattle and
                          sheep,
                          > and wagonloads of gold and silk as gifts. When the caravan reached
                          > Turkestan, Kun-mo was thunderstruck by the sigh of these riches but
                          > refused to consider an alliance. Chang Chien stopped his men from
                          > unloading: 'The Son of Heaven sent me with these gifts, and if you
                          > do not prostrate yourself immediately to receive them, I will take
                          > them all back!" This was too much for the ragged nomad chief, who
                          > threw himself down and offered to sign anything. Before he could
                          > change his mind, Chang Chien returned to China with the treaty and
                          > was awarded with the title Grand Messanger. He died peacefully a
                          > year of so afterward, happy and revered, one of the world's great
                          > early explorers.
                          > Thanks to his pioneering travels, sweetened with the bribes only
                          > an emperor could dispense, emissaries arrived in China from India
                          > and Persia For the first time, China established diplomatic and
                          > trade relations with nations on the Caspian, and Black Sea, the
                          > Mediterranean, and the Indian Ocean, countries that a few years
                          > earlier only her much-despised merchants had known existed.
                          > Han's new nomad allies, attacking from the west, helped defeat
                          the
                          > Hsiung-nu. Emperor Wu-ti personally led a victory parade to
                          > celebrate the triumph.
                          > Eager to acquire Ferghana horses for his own stables, Wu-ti found
                          > the breeders reluctant to share their treasured steeds, so in 104BC
                          > he despatched a large Chinese military force beyond the Pamirs,
                          > where they had little difficulty persuading Ferghana's rulers to
                          > change their minds.
                          > Once China's desert frontier was secure, four international trade
                          > routes came into regular use - two Silk roads, north and south of
                          > the Takla Makan desert, a Jade Road through Burma to India and
                          Siam,
                          > and a sea route across the Indian Ocean. Merchants from Roman
                          > Europe could venture safely along caravan routes guarded by Han
                          army
                          > outposts, stopping in oases where they mingled with Chinese
                          traders.
                          > Bolts of shimmering silk became the luxury item most sought after
                          by
                          > Roman women."
                          >
                        • kitmengleong
                          Hi! Haven t heard from you in a looooong while! How have you been? Busy writing your books? Lords of the Rim is a pretty entertaining read but as Kenneth
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 1, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi!

                            Haven't heard from you in a looooong while! How have you been? Busy
                            writing your books?

                            Lords of the Rim is a pretty entertaining read but as Kenneth would
                            probably jump in a tell you, written not as serious history but rather
                            sensationally. ;)

                            I personally love these stories of early explorers too. I think there
                            are a whole bunch of other stories in the files area. I'll see what
                            else I can dig up for you on Chang Chien if you like.

                            Jieming
                            DragonSeedLegacy
                            ChineseCultureOnline


                            --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "omabi_us" <goatmountain@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks for taking the time to post this fascinating information! I
                            > have seen Chang Chien's name mentioned briefly before and am eager to
                            > learn more about him. Sounds like "Lords of the Rim" might be a great
                            > place to begin. Any other suggestions?
                            >
                            > p.s. I'm delighted to have time to check out Dragon Seed again . . .
                            > I've missed you!
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong" <kmleong@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Chang Chien (Zhang Qian) - The Man who 'discovered' Europe
                            > >
                            > > Excerpt from "Lords of the Rim", Bantam Press 1995, Peggy &
                            > Sterling
                            > > Seagrave.
                            > >
                            > > "This was the first time China looked outward. As the Han domain
                            > > spread far and wide, ambitious young men began careers as
                            > > explorers. One who ventured bravely across the steppes of Central
                            > > Asia in 139 BC - fourteen centuries befor Marco Polo and sixteen
                            > > centuries before Columbus - 'discovered' Europe, the Mediterranean
                            > > and the Alantic Ocean. Thanks to Chang Chien's reconnaissance,
                            > > nomad raids diminished and the first garrisioned Silk Roads were
                            > > established between China and the West. Another trade route
                            > through
                            > > Burma to Siam and India (long used secretly by Chinese merchants)
                            > > was officially identified. And the sea route from South China
                            > > across the Indian Ocean to Arabia and Africa was found to be seeded
                            > > already with small Overseas Chinese merchant colonies more than two
                            > > thousand years ago.
                            > > Before Chang Chien's secret mission, the Chinese government knew
                            > > and cared little about what lay beyond its borders. The treeless
                            > > steppes spread like a broad superhighway from Mongolia to Bulgaria,
                            > > the killing field of wild nmad cavalries. As far back as 3000BC
                            > > merchants in Mesopotamia, Persia and India started long-distance
                            > > caravan trade with each other around the Asian mountain ranges.
                            > > Raiding these caravans and isolated trading posts provided an easy
                            > > source of food and luxuries to the nomads. Over the ages they
                            > > struck in wave after wave, from the Cimmerians and Scythians to the
                            > > Huns and Mongols. They swarmed out of nowhere, massacred villages
                            > > on the edges of the steppes, then vanished.
                            > > On China's borders, the most aggressive of these nomads were the
                            > > Hsiung-nu, who ruled the wastes from the Pamirs to Siberia. They
                            > > led as many as three hundred thousand horsemen at a time in
                            > > homicidal raids on border cities, killing for fun. The Chinese
                            > were
                            > > unable to wage long punitive campaigns deep into the deserts or
                            > > steppes because hundreds of wagon teams were needed to carry
                            > > provisions for as little as three months. When they withdrew, the
                            > > nomads simply resumed their guerrilla raids. In the Han Dynasty a
                            > > new alliance of Hsiung-nu tribes brought a fresh wave of fear to
                            > > outlying districts. As first the Han emperors chose the soft
                            > > weapon, by sending frightened pricesses to the nomad Son-of-Heaven,
                            > > or Shan-yu, but efforts to buy a lasting peace failed because
                            > > centuries of conflict had made a tradtition of treachery.
                            > > Prospects improved when Emperor Wu-ti learned of a split in nomad
                            > > ranks. A prisoner reported that the Hsiung-nu had murdered the
                            > > ruler of the tribe called the Yueh-chih, and disgraced his spirit
                            > by
                            > > using his skull as a drinking cup. The Yueh-chih, who had then
                            > fled
                            > > westward across the desert with a burning grudge, might no be
                            > > willing to ally with China against the Hsiung-nu.
                            > > The emperor decided to send a secret agent to sound them out.
                            > > Among the officers who applied for the job was Chang Chien. A
                            > tough
                            > > and intelligent soldier, he was a perfect scout because his good
                            > > nature assured him of a warm welcome wherever he went. He was
                            > given
                            > > the official role of ambassador and set out with a retimue of a
                            > > hundred guided by a Hsiung-nu prisoner named Kan-fu, an expert
                            > > archer who knew secret sources of water in the desert.
                            > > Personally, Chang Chien was motivated by curiousity as much as by
                            > > ambition. At a time when expanding the empire was a fashionable
                            > > idea, a poor but talented man could make his fortune while
                            > > satisfying his own craving for adventure.
                            > > Few Chinese had ever gone by choice into the steppes or acress
                            > the
                            > > trackless wastes of the Takla Makan and Gobi deserts. During times
                            > > of chaos and insurrection, educated Chinese mandarins or generals
                            > > sometimes defected to the nomads or to the southern barbarians.
                            > > Mountain passes in the north, west and south were convenient
                            > > doorways to safety...
                            > > Chang Chien's party travelled west for many days, crossing
                            > deserts
                            > > and mountain ranges until, deep in nomad territory, they were
                            > > ambused and taken before the maximum leader, the Shan-yu. He
                            > > thought their whole mission was ridiculous: 'Do you suppose that if
                            > > I tried to send an embassy to the kingdom of Yueh, that the Han
                            > > would let my men pass through China?'
                            > > He put Chang Chient under house arrest for the next ten years,
                            > > looked after by the faithful servant Kan-fu. To help pass the
                            > time,
                            > > Chang Chient was given as beautiful nomad wife, who bore him a
                            > > strapping son. Eventually the warriors stopped guarding him
                            > > closely, and Chang Chient fled with his wife and son and servant to
                            > > continue his sacred mission to the west.
                            > > Riding as fast as they could to Ferghana, in what is now
                            > > Tadzhikistan and Uzbekistan, they were made welcome by its king,
                            > who
                            > > provided them with guides and interpreters for the next leg of
                            > their
                            > > journey. Eventually Chang Chien caught up with the displaced Yueh-
                            > > chih people, the original goal of his secret mission. He found
                            > them
                            > > totally changed. In the intervening years, they had captured the
                            > > rich region of Bactria south of the Oxus River and made themselves
                            > > its new rulers, living a sensual and indulgent life at the expense
                            > > of its people. The last thing they wanted was to forfeit this
                            > > pleasant existense to resure their old blood feud with the Hsiung-
                            > > nu. As to avenging their dead king whose skull had been used as a
                            > > drinking cup - his son was no longer interested.
                            > > Bactria, which sprawled from the Caspian Sea down past the Hindu
                            > > Kush to the frontier of India, had just been abandoned by the
                            > Greeks
                            > > as the last vestiges of Alexander the Great's empire collapsed.
                            > > There were still many Hellenes in Bactria, so at this moment
                            > ancient
                            > > China was brushing its fingertips against those of ancient Greece.
                            > > Chang Chient learned things no CHinse officer before him had ever
                            > > known. After a year in Bactria gathering exotic intelligence, he
                            > > resigned himself to the failure of his original mission and began
                            > > the long trek back to China, hoping that the things he ahd heared
                            > > about the West would keep his head on his shoulders. He took a
                            > > route from Afghanistan through the Hindu Kush, along the northern
                            > > slope of the Himalayas to eastern Tibet. He planned to give the
                            > > Hsiung-nu a wide berth and re-enter China from Tibet, through the
                            > > teritory of the less dangerous Chiang barbarians. But as he and
                            > his
                            > > tiny party were crossing the high desert above the great salt marsh
                            > > called Lop Nor, a lunar landscape well known in those days only to
                            > > small herds of wild Tibetan ass, he was ambushed once more by the
                            > > wily Hsiung-nu and detained for another year.
                            > > The leathery old Shan-yu who had been his host during his
                            > previous
                            > > captivity chose that awkward moment to die. A rival chief attached
                            > > and set himself up as the new ruler of the nomad federation. IN
                            > the
                            > > midst of this turmoil, Chang Chien once again fled into the night
                            > > with his family and his trusty servant.
                            > > Reaching the imperial court after an arduous mission lasting
                            > > thirteen years in all, Chang Chien regaled Emperor Wu-ti for days
                            > > and nights with his reports of places far and strange. Instead of
                            > > losing his head, he was rewarded with the post of palace
                            > > counsellor. Kan-fu, the former slave, was given the title 'Lord
                            > Who
                            > > Carries Out His Missions'.
                            > > Chang Chien told his emperor about the nomads, the great Takla
                            > > Makan deser, and the isolated mountain valley of Ferghana where
                            > > people raised 'horse so magnificent that they sweat blood'. After
                            > > Ferghana, he reported, all the rivers flowed west into the Caspian
                            > > and Aral seas, where there are many potential allies against the
                            > > Hsiung-nu. He talked at length about the Wu-sun nomads, who could
                            > > muster thirty thousand mounted archers. They were led by Kun-mo, a
                            > > legendary warrior who, as a child had been left in the desert to
                            > die
                            > > but was saved by vultures that fed him meat, and wolves that
                            > suckled
                            > > him. Beyond were other nomads, with ninety thousand mounted
                            > bowmen,
                            > > and around the Aral Sea were the Yen-tsai with one hundred thousand
                            > > archers. Together they could form an army nearly a quarter of
                            > > million strong.
                            > > The emperor listened spellbound to Chang Chien's accounts of
                            > > Bactria, and a kingdom to the south-west called Persia, whose
                            > people
                            > > lived in walled cities and kept records by writing horizontally on
                            > > strips of leather. Among the Persians were merchants from
                            > > Mesopotamia, and from a great western sea, the Mediterranean.
                            > > Beyond, in a regions that was very hot and damp, were giant birds
                            > > that laid eggs as big as cooking pots. Still farther, beyond the
                            > > Mediterranean, were other countires and a great ocean.
                            > > 'In my travels, I saw bamboo canes and cloth from our regions of
                            > > Chiung and Chu (Szechuan),' Chang Chien told the emperor. 'When I
                            > > asked how they obtained such articles they told me "Our merchants
                            > go
                            > > and buy them in the markets of India."' India, he had learned, was
                            > > a hot, wet kingdom on the great river south-east of Persia, whose
                            > > people rode war elephants into battle. 'Now if the Indians obtain
                            > > trade goods from south-western China, they cannot be far. Instead
                            > > of trying to reach India by crossing the deserts of the mountains
                            > to
                            > > the west, a more direct route would be south by way of Shu.'
                            > > ....
                            > > In recognition of his many discoveries, Chang Chien was given the
                            > > title Marquis Po-wang ("Broad Vision"). he took part in various
                            > > military campaigns against the Hsiung-nu, but misfortune struck
                            > when
                            > > he arrived late at a rendezvous, and found that his general's army
                            > > had been wiped out. Disgraced and sentenced to die, Chang Chien
                            > was
                            > > allowed to live only on the condition that he pay a stiff fine and
                            > > give up his noble title.
                            > > A chance to redeem himself came when Emperor Wu-ti asked him to
                            > > set out once again far to the west to secure the alliance he had
                            > > propsed with the Wu-sun nomads in Turkestan. He was to offer their
                            > > leader, Kun-mo, rich gifts and bribes to attack the Hsiung-nu from
                            > > the rear. A treaty between China and the Wu-sun would intimidate
                            > > everyone, the emperor said, and they would all grovel at China's
                            > > feet and send tribute.
                            > > This time Chang Chien went well prepared, with three hundred
                            > > soldiers, six hundred horses, tens of thousands of cattle and
                            > sheep,
                            > > and wagonloads of gold and silk as gifts. When the caravan reached
                            > > Turkestan, Kun-mo was thunderstruck by the sigh of these riches but
                            > > refused to consider an alliance. Chang Chien stopped his men from
                            > > unloading: 'The Son of Heaven sent me with these gifts, and if you
                            > > do not prostrate yourself immediately to receive them, I will take
                            > > them all back!" This was too much for the ragged nomad chief, who
                            > > threw himself down and offered to sign anything. Before he could
                            > > change his mind, Chang Chien returned to China with the treaty and
                            > > was awarded with the title Grand Messanger. He died peacefully a
                            > > year of so afterward, happy and revered, one of the world's great
                            > > early explorers.
                            > > Thanks to his pioneering travels, sweetened with the bribes only
                            > > an emperor could dispense, emissaries arrived in China from India
                            > > and Persia For the first time, China established diplomatic and
                            > > trade relations with nations on the Caspian, and Black Sea, the
                            > > Mediterranean, and the Indian Ocean, countries that a few years
                            > > earlier only her much-despised merchants had known existed.
                            > > Han's new nomad allies, attacking from the west, helped defeat
                            > the
                            > > Hsiung-nu. Emperor Wu-ti personally led a victory parade to
                            > > celebrate the triumph.
                            > > Eager to acquire Ferghana horses for his own stables, Wu-ti found
                            > > the breeders reluctant to share their treasured steeds, so in 104BC
                            > > he despatched a large Chinese military force beyond the Pamirs,
                            > > where they had little difficulty persuading Ferghana's rulers to
                            > > change their minds.
                            > > Once China's desert frontier was secure, four international trade
                            > > routes came into regular use - two Silk roads, north and south of
                            > > the Takla Makan desert, a Jade Road through Burma to India and
                            > Siam,
                            > > and a sea route across the Indian Ocean. Merchants from Roman
                            > > Europe could venture safely along caravan routes guarded by Han
                            > army
                            > > outposts, stopping in oases where they mingled with Chinese
                            > traders.
                            > > Bolts of shimmering silk became the luxury item most sought after
                            > by
                            > > Roman women."
                            > >
                            >
                          • omabi_us
                            Hi Jeming! Yes, as usual, I m knee-deep in piles, scraps and wads of paper, writing and rewriting. I relish sensationalized history as well as seeing it
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 28, 2006
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                              Hi Jeming! Yes, as usual, I'm knee-deep in piles, scraps and wads of
                              paper, writing and rewriting. I relish sensationalized "history" as
                              well as seeing it debunked. Great discussion!

                              Please do dig up more files about Chang Chen.

                              Kenneth, please share your sources, too.
                              Omabi



                              --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong" <kmleong@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi!
                              >
                              > Haven't heard from you in a looooong while! How have you been?
                              Busy
                              > writing your books?
                              >
                              > Lords of the Rim is a pretty entertaining read but as Kenneth would
                              > probably jump in a tell you, written not as serious history but
                              rather
                              > sensationally. ;)
                              >
                              > I personally love these stories of early explorers too. I think
                              there
                              > are a whole bunch of other stories in the files area. I'll see what
                              > else I can dig up for you on Chang Chien if you like.
                              >
                              > Jieming
                              > DragonSeedLegacy
                              > ChineseCultureOnline
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "omabi_us" <goatmountain@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Thanks for taking the time to post this fascinating information!
                              I
                              > > have seen Chang Chien's name mentioned briefly before and am
                              eager to
                              > > learn more about him. Sounds like "Lords of the Rim" might be a
                              great
                              > > place to begin. Any other suggestions?
                              > >
                              > > p.s. I'm delighted to have time to check out Dragon Seed
                              again . . .
                              > > I've missed you!
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong"
                              <kmleong@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Chang Chien (Zhang Qian) - The Man who 'discovered' Europe
                              > > >
                              > > > Excerpt from "Lords of the Rim", Bantam Press 1995, Peggy &
                              > > Sterling
                              > > > Seagrave.
                              > > >
                              > > > "This was the first time China looked outward. As the Han
                              domain
                              > > > spread far and wide, ambitious young men began careers as
                              > > > explorers. One who ventured bravely across the steppes of
                              Central
                              > > > Asia in 139 BC - fourteen centuries befor Marco Polo and
                              sixteen
                              > > > centuries before Columbus - 'discovered' Europe, the
                              Mediterranean
                              > > > and the Alantic Ocean. Thanks to Chang Chien's reconnaissance,
                              > > > nomad raids diminished and the first garrisioned Silk Roads
                              were
                              > > > established between China and the West. Another trade route
                              > > through
                              > > > Burma to Siam and India (long used secretly by Chinese
                              merchants)
                              > > > was officially identified. And the sea route from South China
                              > > > across the Indian Ocean to Arabia and Africa was found to be
                              seeded
                              > > > already with small Overseas Chinese merchant colonies more than
                              two
                              > > > thousand years ago.
                              > > > Before Chang Chien's secret mission, the Chinese government
                              knew
                              > > > and cared little about what lay beyond its borders. The
                              treeless
                              > > > steppes spread like a broad superhighway from Mongolia to
                              Bulgaria,
                              > > > the killing field of wild nmad cavalries. As far back as
                              3000BC
                              > > > merchants in Mesopotamia, Persia and India started long-
                              distance
                              > > > caravan trade with each other around the Asian mountain
                              ranges.
                              > > > Raiding these caravans and isolated trading posts provided an
                              easy
                              > > > source of food and luxuries to the nomads. Over the ages they
                              > > > struck in wave after wave, from the Cimmerians and Scythians to
                              the
                              > > > Huns and Mongols. They swarmed out of nowhere, massacred
                              villages
                              > > > on the edges of the steppes, then vanished.
                              > > > On China's borders, the most aggressive of these nomads were
                              the
                              > > > Hsiung-nu, who ruled the wastes from the Pamirs to Siberia.
                              They
                              > > > led as many as three hundred thousand horsemen at a time in
                              > > > homicidal raids on border cities, killing for fun. The Chinese
                              > > were
                              > > > unable to wage long punitive campaigns deep into the deserts or
                              > > > steppes because hundreds of wagon teams were needed to carry
                              > > > provisions for as little as three months. When they withdrew,
                              the
                              > > > nomads simply resumed their guerrilla raids. In the Han
                              Dynasty a
                              > > > new alliance of Hsiung-nu tribes brought a fresh wave of fear
                              to
                              > > > outlying districts. As first the Han emperors chose the soft
                              > > > weapon, by sending frightened pricesses to the nomad Son-of-
                              Heaven,
                              > > > or Shan-yu, but efforts to buy a lasting peace failed because
                              > > > centuries of conflict had made a tradtition of treachery.
                              > > > Prospects improved when Emperor Wu-ti learned of a split in
                              nomad
                              > > > ranks. A prisoner reported that the Hsiung-nu had murdered the
                              > > > ruler of the tribe called the Yueh-chih, and disgraced his
                              spirit
                              > > by
                              > > > using his skull as a drinking cup. The Yueh-chih, who had then
                              > > fled
                              > > > westward across the desert with a burning grudge, might no be
                              > > > willing to ally with China against the Hsiung-nu.
                              > > > The emperor decided to send a secret agent to sound them
                              out.
                              > > > Among the officers who applied for the job was Chang Chien. A
                              > > tough
                              > > > and intelligent soldier, he was a perfect scout because his
                              good
                              > > > nature assured him of a warm welcome wherever he went. He was
                              > > given
                              > > > the official role of ambassador and set out with a retimue of a
                              > > > hundred guided by a Hsiung-nu prisoner named Kan-fu, an expert
                              > > > archer who knew secret sources of water in the desert.
                              > > > Personally, Chang Chien was motivated by curiousity as much as
                              by
                              > > > ambition. At a time when expanding the empire was a
                              fashionable
                              > > > idea, a poor but talented man could make his fortune while
                              > > > satisfying his own craving for adventure.
                              > > > Few Chinese had ever gone by choice into the steppes or
                              acress
                              > > the
                              > > > trackless wastes of the Takla Makan and Gobi deserts. During
                              times
                              > > > of chaos and insurrection, educated Chinese mandarins or
                              generals
                              > > > sometimes defected to the nomads or to the southern
                              barbarians.
                              > > > Mountain passes in the north, west and south were convenient
                              > > > doorways to safety...
                              > > > Chang Chien's party travelled west for many days, crossing
                              > > deserts
                              > > > and mountain ranges until, deep in nomad territory, they were
                              > > > ambused and taken before the maximum leader, the Shan-yu. He
                              > > > thought their whole mission was ridiculous: 'Do you suppose
                              that if
                              > > > I tried to send an embassy to the kingdom of Yueh, that the Han
                              > > > would let my men pass through China?'
                              > > > He put Chang Chient under house arrest for the next ten
                              years,
                              > > > looked after by the faithful servant Kan-fu. To help pass the
                              > > time,
                              > > > Chang Chient was given as beautiful nomad wife, who bore him a
                              > > > strapping son. Eventually the warriors stopped guarding him
                              > > > closely, and Chang Chient fled with his wife and son and
                              servant to
                              > > > continue his sacred mission to the west.
                              > > > Riding as fast as they could to Ferghana, in what is now
                              > > > Tadzhikistan and Uzbekistan, they were made welcome by its
                              king,
                              > > who
                              > > > provided them with guides and interpreters for the next leg of
                              > > their
                              > > > journey. Eventually Chang Chien caught up with the displaced
                              Yueh-
                              > > > chih people, the original goal of his secret mission. He found
                              > > them
                              > > > totally changed. In the intervening years, they had captured
                              the
                              > > > rich region of Bactria south of the Oxus River and made
                              themselves
                              > > > its new rulers, living a sensual and indulgent life at the
                              expense
                              > > > of its people. The last thing they wanted was to forfeit this
                              > > > pleasant existense to resure their old blood feud with the
                              Hsiung-
                              > > > nu. As to avenging their dead king whose skull had been used
                              as a
                              > > > drinking cup - his son was no longer interested.
                              > > > Bactria, which sprawled from the Caspian Sea down past the
                              Hindu
                              > > > Kush to the frontier of India, had just been abandoned by the
                              > > Greeks
                              > > > as the last vestiges of Alexander the Great's empire
                              collapsed.
                              > > > There were still many Hellenes in Bactria, so at this moment
                              > > ancient
                              > > > China was brushing its fingertips against those of ancient
                              Greece.
                              > > > Chang Chient learned things no CHinse officer before him had
                              ever
                              > > > known. After a year in Bactria gathering exotic intelligence,
                              he
                              > > > resigned himself to the failure of his original mission and
                              began
                              > > > the long trek back to China, hoping that the things he ahd
                              heared
                              > > > about the West would keep his head on his shoulders. He took a
                              > > > route from Afghanistan through the Hindu Kush, along the
                              northern
                              > > > slope of the Himalayas to eastern Tibet. He planned to give
                              the
                              > > > Hsiung-nu a wide berth and re-enter China from Tibet, through
                              the
                              > > > teritory of the less dangerous Chiang barbarians. But as he
                              and
                              > > his
                              > > > tiny party were crossing the high desert above the great salt
                              marsh
                              > > > called Lop Nor, a lunar landscape well known in those days only
                              to
                              > > > small herds of wild Tibetan ass, he was ambushed once more by
                              the
                              > > > wily Hsiung-nu and detained for another year.
                              > > > The leathery old Shan-yu who had been his host during his
                              > > previous
                              > > > captivity chose that awkward moment to die. A rival chief
                              attached
                              > > > and set himself up as the new ruler of the nomad federation.
                              IN
                              > > the
                              > > > midst of this turmoil, Chang Chien once again fled into the
                              night
                              > > > with his family and his trusty servant.
                              > > > Reaching the imperial court after an arduous mission lasting
                              > > > thirteen years in all, Chang Chien regaled Emperor Wu-ti for
                              days
                              > > > and nights with his reports of places far and strange. Instead
                              of
                              > > > losing his head, he was rewarded with the post of palace
                              > > > counsellor. Kan-fu, the former slave, was given the
                              title 'Lord
                              > > Who
                              > > > Carries Out His Missions'.
                              > > > Chang Chien told his emperor about the nomads, the great
                              Takla
                              > > > Makan deser, and the isolated mountain valley of Ferghana where
                              > > > people raised 'horse so magnificent that they sweat blood'.
                              After
                              > > > Ferghana, he reported, all the rivers flowed west into the
                              Caspian
                              > > > and Aral seas, where there are many potential allies against
                              the
                              > > > Hsiung-nu. He talked at length about the Wu-sun nomads, who
                              could
                              > > > muster thirty thousand mounted archers. They were led by Kun-
                              mo, a
                              > > > legendary warrior who, as a child had been left in the desert
                              to
                              > > die
                              > > > but was saved by vultures that fed him meat, and wolves that
                              > > suckled
                              > > > him. Beyond were other nomads, with ninety thousand mounted
                              > > bowmen,
                              > > > and around the Aral Sea were the Yen-tsai with one hundred
                              thousand
                              > > > archers. Together they could form an army nearly a quarter of
                              > > > million strong.
                              > > > The emperor listened spellbound to Chang Chien's accounts of
                              > > > Bactria, and a kingdom to the south-west called Persia, whose
                              > > people
                              > > > lived in walled cities and kept records by writing horizontally
                              on
                              > > > strips of leather. Among the Persians were merchants from
                              > > > Mesopotamia, and from a great western sea, the Mediterranean.
                              > > > Beyond, in a regions that was very hot and damp, were giant
                              birds
                              > > > that laid eggs as big as cooking pots. Still farther, beyond
                              the
                              > > > Mediterranean, were other countires and a great ocean.
                              > > > 'In my travels, I saw bamboo canes and cloth from our regions
                              of
                              > > > Chiung and Chu (Szechuan),' Chang Chien told the
                              emperor. 'When I
                              > > > asked how they obtained such articles they told me "Our
                              merchants
                              > > go
                              > > > and buy them in the markets of India."' India, he had learned,
                              was
                              > > > a hot, wet kingdom on the great river south-east of Persia,
                              whose
                              > > > people rode war elephants into battle. 'Now if the Indians
                              obtain
                              > > > trade goods from south-western China, they cannot be far.
                              Instead
                              > > > of trying to reach India by crossing the deserts of the
                              mountains
                              > > to
                              > > > the west, a more direct route would be south by way of Shu.'
                              > > > ....
                              > > > In recognition of his many discoveries, Chang Chien was given
                              the
                              > > > title Marquis Po-wang ("Broad Vision"). he took part in
                              various
                              > > > military campaigns against the Hsiung-nu, but misfortune struck
                              > > when
                              > > > he arrived late at a rendezvous, and found that his general's
                              army
                              > > > had been wiped out. Disgraced and sentenced to die, Chang
                              Chien
                              > > was
                              > > > allowed to live only on the condition that he pay a stiff fine
                              and
                              > > > give up his noble title.
                              > > > A chance to redeem himself came when Emperor Wu-ti asked him
                              to
                              > > > set out once again far to the west to secure the alliance he
                              had
                              > > > propsed with the Wu-sun nomads in Turkestan. He was to offer
                              their
                              > > > leader, Kun-mo, rich gifts and bribes to attack the Hsiung-nu
                              from
                              > > > the rear. A treaty between China and the Wu-sun would
                              intimidate
                              > > > everyone, the emperor said, and they would all grovel at
                              China's
                              > > > feet and send tribute.
                              > > > This time Chang Chien went well prepared, with three hundred
                              > > > soldiers, six hundred horses, tens of thousands of cattle and
                              > > sheep,
                              > > > and wagonloads of gold and silk as gifts. When the caravan
                              reached
                              > > > Turkestan, Kun-mo was thunderstruck by the sigh of these riches
                              but
                              > > > refused to consider an alliance. Chang Chien stopped his men
                              from
                              > > > unloading: 'The Son of Heaven sent me with these gifts, and if
                              you
                              > > > do not prostrate yourself immediately to receive them, I will
                              take
                              > > > them all back!" This was too much for the ragged nomad chief,
                              who
                              > > > threw himself down and offered to sign anything. Before he
                              could
                              > > > change his mind, Chang Chien returned to China with the treaty
                              and
                              > > > was awarded with the title Grand Messanger. He died peacefully
                              a
                              > > > year of so afterward, happy and revered, one of the world's
                              great
                              > > > early explorers.
                              > > > Thanks to his pioneering travels, sweetened with the bribes
                              only
                              > > > an emperor could dispense, emissaries arrived in China from
                              India
                              > > > and Persia For the first time, China established diplomatic
                              and
                              > > > trade relations with nations on the Caspian, and Black Sea, the
                              > > > Mediterranean, and the Indian Ocean, countries that a few years
                              > > > earlier only her much-despised merchants had known existed.
                              > > > Han's new nomad allies, attacking from the west, helped
                              defeat
                              > > the
                              > > > Hsiung-nu. Emperor Wu-ti personally led a victory parade to
                              > > > celebrate the triumph.
                              > > > Eager to acquire Ferghana horses for his own stables, Wu-ti
                              found
                              > > > the breeders reluctant to share their treasured steeds, so in
                              104BC
                              > > > he despatched a large Chinese military force beyond the Pamirs,
                              > > > where they had little difficulty persuading Ferghana's rulers
                              to
                              > > > change their minds.
                              > > > Once China's desert frontier was secure, four international
                              trade
                              > > > routes came into regular use - two Silk roads, north and south
                              of
                              > > > the Takla Makan desert, a Jade Road through Burma to India and
                              > > Siam,
                              > > > and a sea route across the Indian Ocean. Merchants from Roman
                              > > > Europe could venture safely along caravan routes guarded by Han
                              > > army
                              > > > outposts, stopping in oases where they mingled with Chinese
                              > > traders.
                              > > > Bolts of shimmering silk became the luxury item most sought
                              after
                              > > by
                              > > > Roman women."
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
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