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Re: Franco-Chinese War

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  • Christine
    ... think ... help ... Annam ... I havent read them thoroughly yet.
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 6, 2004
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      --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong"
      <kmleong@a...> wrote:
      > Hi Christine, I have been reading the links you provided and I
      think
      > I now understand what happened. The Chinese were invited in to
      help
      > the Vietnamese king to expell the French. The Chinese won the war
      > but in the 1960s the French used this war as an excuse to take
      Annam
      > and Tonkin.
      >
      > Is my interpretation of events correct here?
      >
      > Jieming
      >
      >
      I havent read them thoroughly yet.
    • qpwoeiru134679 .
      The Franco-Chinese War lasted from 1884 to 1885. ... wait a sec... annam and tonkin? aren t those OUTside china? why would china give them up? tony
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 7, 2004
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        The Franco-Chinese War lasted from 1884 to 1885.
        >It ended with China giving up its sovereignty over Annam and Tonkin.
        >
        >The treaty ending the war was signed on June 9, 1885.
        >
        >These territories were later included into French Indochina.
        >


        wait a sec... annam and tonkin? aren't those OUTside china? why would
        china "give" them up?

        tony

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      • kitmengleong
        Hehe, hi Tony, I don t know for sure coz I m still reading up on this but I have two theories on this. 1. The Chinese have held Annam on and off throughout the
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 7, 2004
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          Hehe, hi Tony,

          I don't know for sure coz I'm still reading up on this but I have
          two theories on this.

          1. The Chinese have held Annam on and off throughout the centuries
          and the Qing certainly did hold on to large parts of what is now
          Northern Vietnam. This might be the latest event that pulled Annam
          and Tonkin out of China (yet again).
          2. The Chinese didn't actually control Annam but instead it was
          under the Vietnamese King who paid tribute to the Qing. Chinese
          dynasties tend to consider vassal states part of the empire.

          Maybe it was even a combination of the two.

          Need to read more on this first. Maybe in the meantime Ty can
          comment? He should know more on this.

          Jieming
          DragonSeedLegacy
          ChineseCultureOnline

          --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "qpwoeiru134679 ."
          <qpwoeiru134679@h...> wrote:
          > The Franco-Chinese War lasted from 1884 to 1885.
          > >It ended with China giving up its sovereignty over Annam and
          Tonkin.
          > >
          > >The treaty ending the war was signed on June 9, 1885.
          > >
          > >These territories were later included into French Indochina.
          > >
          >
          >
          > wait a sec... annam and tonkin? aren't those OUTside china? why
          would
          > china "give" them up?
          >
          > tony
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft®
          SmartScreen
          > Technology.
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          ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Ma
          rket_MSNIS_Taglines
          > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and
          get the
          > first two months FREE*.
        • kitmengleong
          Tony, if you look at the maps of China in the Chronology of Chinese History and Culture , you ll notice that the northern part of today s Vietnam was part of
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 7, 2004
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            Tony, if you look at the maps of China in the "Chronology of Chinese
            History and Culture", you'll notice that the northern part of today's
            Vietnam was part of China since the Yuan dynasty through to the Qing
            and the Republic of China. This area exited China only during the
            French rule of IndoChina and subsequent passage into North Vietnam.
            China clashed with the Vietnamese on several occasions for reasons
            largely only known to the Chinese themselves but were never really
            very successful, notably in 1979 and then again in 1984.

            China has border disputes all around it's borders, and though they
            have by and large abided by the treaties and border agreements in
            place, they do on occasion tend to bully those with a weaker ability
            to defend their border claims, militarily as well as politically.

            The Sino-Indian border is still contested with the Chinese holding the
            upper hand after defeating India in a series of border skirmishes and
            one full blown war in 1962.

            China has concluded border agreements with the new independant
            ex-soviet republics on it's western borders with many concessions
            going to China in return for stability and recognition of, and for
            China to drop claims to the region.

            Taiwan... well, nuff said about Taiwan.

            The Japanese occupied string of islands between Taiwan and the
            Japanese islands have been making main headlines news.

            The Sino-Russian border. Ah, a big can of worms. China fought the
            USSR on a few occasions to stalemates in most cases. The Soviet Union
            in principle agreed with China that Chinese territories seized by
            Tsarist forces during the Qing dynasty will not be valid and the
            territories will be returned to China especially along the Amur river.
            However, the Soviets backpedalled and stalled until today. With the
            demise of the USSR, there is now a lack of clarity on where the
            Russian government stands on this.

            The Sino-Mongolian border. China very early on, prompted by fraternal
            ties with Soviet Russian, recognised the Peoples Republic of Mongolia.
            This is probably the most stable of Chinese borders. However, the
            Mongolians have leaned towards the Russians and continue to align
            themselves northward to counter possible future Chinese claims to the
            region. Not sure what will happen here.

            Spratly & Paracel islands are claimed both in part and in full by
            China, Vietnam, Phillipines, Malaysia & Brunei. China, Vietnam,
            Phillipines and Malaysia all have military/civilian structures on
            various islands. This area has rich undersea oil reserves and I doubt
            any country will back down easily.

            Maoist rebels are still fighting the Nepalist government for control
            of this himalayan nation.

            The Sino-Burmese border is calm though very, very porous. I suspect
            the relatively stable border situation is due not so much from a lack
            of contested territories but rather because of the Sino-centric stance
            of the Burmese regime.

            Jieming
            DragonSeedLegacy
            ChineseCultureOnline



            --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "qpwoeiru134679 ."
            <qpwoeiru134679@h...> wrote:
            > The Franco-Chinese War lasted from 1884 to 1885.
            > >It ended with China giving up its sovereignty over Annam and Tonkin.
            > >
            > >The treaty ending the war was signed on June 9, 1885.
            > >
            > >These territories were later included into French Indochina.
            > >
            >
            >
            > wait a sec... annam and tonkin? aren't those OUTside china? why would
            > china "give" them up?
            >
            > tony
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
            > Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft®
            SmartScreen
            > Technology.
            >
            http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=ht=
            tp://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines

            > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the
            > first two months FREE*.
          • qpwoeiru134679 .
            thanks for the info! hey... one thing i ve noticed... Qing included xinjiang and tibet and mongolia and manchuria right? after the 1911 revolution and the
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 8, 2004
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              thanks for the info!

              hey... one thing i've noticed...

              Qing included xinjiang and tibet and mongolia and manchuria right? after
              the 1911 revolution and the creation of a republic, how come only mongolia
              managed to separate?

              and tell me the story of how outer and inner mongolia came to be (split).
              thx!!

              tony

              >From: "kitmengleong" <kmleong@...>
              >Reply-To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
              >To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [DragonSeedLegacy] Re: Franco-Chinese War
              >Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 06:44:39 -0000
              >
              >Tony, if you look at the maps of China in the "Chronology of
              Chinese
              >History and Culture", you'll notice that the northern part of
              today's
              >Vietnam was part of China since the Yuan dynasty through to the Qing
              >and the Republic of China. This area exited China only during the
              >French rule of IndoChina and subsequent passage into North Vietnam.
              >China clashed with the Vietnamese on several occasions for reasons
              >largely only known to the Chinese themselves but were never really
              >very successful, notably in 1979 and then again in 1984.
              >
              >China has border disputes all around it's borders, and though they
              >have by and large abided by the treaties and border agreements in
              >place, they do on occasion tend to bully those with a weaker ability
              >to defend their border claims, militarily as well as politically.
              >
              >The Sino-Indian border is still contested with the Chinese holding the
              >upper hand after defeating India in a series of border skirmishes and
              >one full blown war in 1962.
              >
              >China has concluded border agreements with the new independant
              >ex-soviet republics on it's western borders with many concessions
              >going to China in return for stability and recognition of, and for
              >China to drop claims to the region.
              >
              >Taiwan... well, nuff said about Taiwan.
              >
              >The Japanese occupied string of islands between Taiwan and the
              >Japanese islands have been making main headlines news.
              >
              >The Sino-Russian border. Ah, a big can of worms. China fought the
              >USSR on a few occasions to stalemates in most cases. The Soviet Union
              >in principle agreed with China that Chinese territories seized by
              >Tsarist forces during the Qing dynasty will not be valid and the
              >territories will be returned to China especially along the Amur river.
              > However, the Soviets backpedalled and stalled until today. With the
              >demise of the USSR, there is now a lack of clarity on where the
              >Russian government stands on this.
              >
              >The Sino-Mongolian border. China very early on, prompted by fraternal
              >ties with Soviet Russian, recognised the Peoples Republic of Mongolia.
              > This is probably the most stable of Chinese borders. However, the
              >Mongolians have leaned towards the Russians and continue to align
              >themselves northward to counter possible future Chinese claims to the
              >region. Not sure what will happen here.
              >
              >Spratly & Paracel islands are claimed both in part and in full by
              >China, Vietnam, Phillipines, Malaysia & Brunei. China, Vietnam,
              >Phillipines and Malaysia all have military/civilian structures on
              >various islands. This area has rich undersea oil reserves and I doubt
              >any country will back down easily.
              >
              >Maoist rebels are still fighting the Nepalist government for control
              >of this himalayan nation.
              >
              >The Sino-Burmese border is calm though very, very porous. I suspect
              >the relatively stable border situation is due not so much from a lack
              >of contested territories but rather because of the Sino-centric stance
              >of the Burmese regime.
              >
              >Jieming
              >DragonSeedLegacy
              >ChineseCultureOnline
              >
              >
              >
              >--- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "qpwoeiru134679 ."
              ><qpwoeiru134679@h...> wrote:
              > > The Franco-Chinese War lasted from 1884 to 1885.
              > > &gt;It ended with China giving up its sovereignty over Annam
              and Tonkin.
              > > &gt;
              > > &gt;The treaty ending the war was signed on June 9, 1885.
              > > &gt;
              > > &gt;These territories were later included into French
              Indochina.
              > > &gt;
              > >
              > >
              > > wait a sec... annam and tonkin? aren't those OUTside china? why
              would
              > > china "give" them up?
              > >
              > > tony
              > >
              > > _________________________________________________________________
              > > Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft�
              >SmartScreen
              > > Technology.
              > >
              >http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=ht=
              >tp://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
              >
              > > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN� Premium right now and
              get the
              > > first two months FREE*.
              >

              _________________________________________________________________
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            • kitmengleong
              Hi Christine, This is proving rather frustrating as the various reports/articles are inconsistent on many points, but I think there is a Taiwan connection
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 8, 2004
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                Hi Christine,

                This is proving rather frustrating as the various reports/articles
                are inconsistent on many points, but I think there is a Taiwan
                connection here. According to one article, the French blockaded
                Taiwan island in retaliation for the Qing troop involvement in Vietnam
                to help expel the French.

                Hehehe, off to a side, no disrespect intended to the French, but why
                do they always seem to lose wars? Quebec, Algeria, Indochina, WW2...
                ok, ok I just remembered Napoleon who went all the way to Moscow and
                Egypt... maybe not all wars.

                Jieming
                DragonSeedLegacy
                ChineseCultureOnline


                --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "Christine"
                <tineypandabear@y...> wrote:
                > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong"
                > <kmleong@a...> wrote:
                > > Hi Christine, I have been reading the links you provided and I
                > think
                > > I now understand what happened. The Chinese were invited in to
                > help
                > > the Vietnamese king to expell the French. The Chinese won the war
                > > but in the 1960s the French used this war as an excuse to take
                > Annam
                > > and Tonkin.
                > >
                > > Is my interpretation of events correct here?
                > >
                > > Jieming
                > >
                > >

                > I havent read them thoroughly yet.
              • kitmengleong
                Hi Tony, that s a lot of history you ve just covered in your request. :-) I ll have to come back to that and treat them separately, Xinjiang, Tibet and
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 8, 2004
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                  Hi Tony, that's a lot of history you've just covered in your request.
                  :-) I'll have to come back to that and treat them separately,
                  Xinjiang, Tibet and Mongolia.

                  Jieming
                  DragonSeedLegacy
                  ChineseCultureOnline


                  --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "qpwoeiru134679 ."
                  <qpwoeiru134679@h...> wrote:
                  > thanks for the info!
                  >
                  > hey... one thing i've noticed...
                  >
                  > Qing included xinjiang and tibet and mongolia and manchuria right?
                  after
                  > the 1911 revolution and the creation of a republic, how come only
                  mongolia
                  > managed to separate?
                  >
                  > and tell me the story of how outer and inner mongolia came to be
                  (split).
                  > thx!!
                  >
                  > tony
                  >
                  > >From: "kitmengleong" kmleong@a...
                  > >Reply-To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                  > >To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Subject: [DragonSeedLegacy] Re: Franco-Chinese War
                  > >Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 06:44:39 -0000
                  > >
                  > >Tony, if you look at the maps of China in the "Chronology of
                  > Chinese
                  > >History and Culture", you'll notice that the northern part of
                  > today's
                  > >Vietnam was part of China since the Yuan dynasty through to the Qing
                  > >and the Republic of China. This area exited China only during the
                  > >French rule of IndoChina and subsequent passage into North Vietnam.
                  > >China clashed with the Vietnamese on several occasions for reasons
                  > >largely only known to the Chinese themselves but were never really
                  > >very successful, notably in 1979 and then again in 1984.
                  > >
                  > >China has border disputes all around it's borders, and though they
                  > >have by and large abided by the treaties and border agreements in
                  > >place, they do on occasion tend to bully those with a weaker ability
                  > >to defend their border claims, militarily as well as politically.
                  > >
                  > >The Sino-Indian border is still contested with the Chinese
                  holding the
                  > >upper hand after defeating India in a series of border
                  skirmishes and
                  > >one full blown war in 1962.
                  > >
                  > >China has concluded border agreements with the new independant
                  > >ex-soviet republics on it's western borders with many concessions
                  > >going to China in return for stability and recognition of, and for
                  > >China to drop claims to the region.
                  > >
                  > >Taiwan... well, nuff said about Taiwan.
                  > >
                  > >The Japanese occupied string of islands between Taiwan and the
                  > >Japanese islands have been making main headlines news.
                  > >
                  > >The Sino-Russian border. Ah, a big can of worms. China fought the
                  > >USSR on a few occasions to stalemates in most cases. The Soviet
                  Union
                  > >in principle agreed with China that Chinese territories seized by
                  > >Tsarist forces during the Qing dynasty will not be valid and the
                  > >territories will be returned to China especially along the Amur
                  river.
                  > > However, the Soviets backpedalled and stalled until today.
                  With the
                  > >demise of the USSR, there is now a lack of clarity on where the
                  > >Russian government stands on this.
                  > >
                  > >The Sino-Mongolian border. China very early on, prompted by
                  fraternal
                  > >ties with Soviet Russian, recognised the Peoples Republic of
                  Mongolia.
                  > > This is probably the most stable of Chinese borders. However, the
                  > >Mongolians have leaned towards the Russians and continue to align
                  > >themselves northward to counter possible future Chinese claims
                  to the
                  > >region. Not sure what will happen here.
                  > >
                  > >Spratly & Paracel islands are claimed both in part and in
                  full by
                  > >China, Vietnam, Phillipines, Malaysia & Brunei. China, Vietnam,
                  > >Phillipines and Malaysia all have military/civilian structures on
                  > >various islands. This area has rich undersea oil reserves and I
                  doubt
                  > >any country will back down easily.
                  > >
                  > >Maoist rebels are still fighting the Nepalist government for control
                  > >of this himalayan nation.
                  > >
                  > >The Sino-Burmese border is calm though very, very porous. I suspect
                  > >the relatively stable border situation is due not so much from a
                  lack
                  > >of contested territories but rather because of the Sino-centric
                  stance
                  > >of the Burmese regime.
                  > >
                  > >Jieming
                  > >DragonSeedLegacy
                  > >ChineseCultureOnline
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >--- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "qpwoeiru134679
                  ."
                  > >qpwoeiru134679@h... wrote:
                  > > > The Franco-Chinese War lasted from 1884 to 1885.
                  > > > &gt;It ended with China giving up its sovereignty over
                  Annam
                  > and Tonkin.
                  > > > &gt;
                  > > > &gt;The treaty ending the war was signed on June 9, 1885.
                  > > > &gt;
                  > > > &gt;These territories were later included into French
                  > Indochina.
                  > > > &gt;
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > wait a sec... annam and tonkin? aren't those OUTside
                  china? why
                  > would
                  > > > china "give" them up?
                  > > >
                  > > > tony
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  _________________________________________________________________
                  > > > Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft®
                  > >SmartScreen
                  > > > Technology.
                  > > >
                  >
                  >http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&a=
                  mp;DI=1034&SU=ht=
                  > >tp://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
                  > >
                  > > > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right
                  now and
                  > get the
                  > > > first two months FREE*.
                  > >
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________________
                  > Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented
                  Microsoft®
                  > SmartScreen Technology.
                  >
                  http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=ht=
                  tp://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines

                  > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the
                  > first two months FREE*.
                • Jane
                  That is interesting. SOme members in the group are from the Europe and might know France better and can offer an insight of what a people the French is. Now
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 8, 2004
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                    That is interesting. SOme members in the group are from the Europe and might know France better and can offer an insight of what a people the French is. Now the French seems to be anti-war in general.

                    Hehe,, i hope the group members won't complain we are having too much unrelevant discussions. May I be excused please. :)

                    Jane



                    kitmengleong <kmleong@...> wrote:
                    Hehehe, off to a side, no disrespect intended to the French, but why
                    do they always seem to lose wars? Quebec, Algeria, Indochina, WW2...
                    ok, ok I just remembered Napoleon who went all the way to Moscow and
                    Egypt... maybe not all wars.

                    Jieming
                    DragonSeedLegacy
                    ChineseCultureOnline


                    --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "Christine"
                    <tineypandabear@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong"
                    > <kmleong@a...> wrote:
                    > > Hi Christine, I have been reading the links you provided and I
                    > think
                    > > I now understand what happened. The Chinese were invited in to
                    > help
                    > > the Vietnamese king to expell the French. The Chinese won the war
                    > > but in the 1960s the French used this war as an excuse to take
                    > Annam
                    > > and Tonkin.
                    > >
                    > > Is my interpretation of events correct here?
                    > >
                    > > Jieming
                    > >
                    > >

                    > I havent read them thoroughly yet.



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                  • qpwoeiru134679 .
                    thx! looking forward to learning more from you. tony ... "Chronology of ... northern part of ... to the Qing ... during the ... Vietnam. ... reasons ...
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 8, 2004
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                      thx! looking forward to learning more from you.

                      tony

                      >From: "kitmengleong" <kmleong@...>
                      >Reply-To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: [DragonSeedLegacy] Re: Franco-Chinese War
                      >Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 08:48:47 -0000
                      >
                      >Hi Tony, that's a lot of history you've just covered in your request.
                      > :-) I'll have to come back to that and treat them separately,
                      >Xinjiang, Tibet and Mongolia.
                      >
                      >Jieming
                      >DragonSeedLegacy
                      >ChineseCultureOnline
                      >
                      >
                      >--- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "qpwoeiru134679 ."
                      ><qpwoeiru134679@h...> wrote:
                      > > thanks for the info!
                      > >
                      > > hey... one thing i've noticed...
                      > >
                      > > Qing included xinjiang and tibet and mongolia and manchuria right?
                      > after
                      > > the 1911 revolution and the creation of a republic, how come only
                      >mongolia
                      > > managed to separate?
                      > >
                      > > and tell me the story of how outer and inner mongolia came to be
                      >(split).
                      > > thx!!
                      > >
                      > > tony
                      > >
                      > > &gt;From: &quot;kitmengleong&quot; kmleong@a...
                      > > &gt;Reply-To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                      > > &gt;To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                      > > &gt;Subject: [DragonSeedLegacy] Re: Franco-Chinese War
                      > > &gt;Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 06:44:39 -0000
                      > > &gt;
                      > > &gt;Tony, if you look at the maps of China in the
                      &quot;Chronology of
                      > > Chinese
                      > > &gt;History and Culture&quot;, you'll notice that the
                      northern part of
                      > > today's
                      > > &gt;Vietnam was part of China since the Yuan dynasty through
                      to the Qing
                      > > &gt;and the Republic of China. This area exited China only
                      during the
                      > > &gt;French rule of IndoChina and subsequent passage into North
                      Vietnam.
                      > > &gt;China clashed with the Vietnamese on several occasions for
                      reasons
                      > > &gt;largely only known to the Chinese themselves but were
                      never really
                      > > &gt;very successful, notably in 1979 and then again in 1984.
                      > > &gt;
                      > > &gt;China has border disputes all around it's borders, and
                      though they
                      > > &gt;have by and large abided by the treaties and border
                      agreements in
                      > > &gt;place, they do on occasion tend to bully those with a
                      weaker ability
                      > > &gt;to defend their border claims, militarily as well as
                      politically.
                      > > &gt;
                      > > &gt;The Sino-Indian border is still contested with the Chinese
                      >holding the
                      > > &gt;upper hand after defeating India in a series of border
                      >skirmishes and
                      > > &gt;one full blown war in 1962.
                      > > &gt;
                      > > &gt;China has concluded border agreements with the new
                      independant
                      > > &gt;ex-soviet republics on it's western borders with many
                      concessions
                      > > &gt;going to China in return for stability and recognition of,
                      and for
                      > > &gt;China to drop claims to the region.
                      > > &gt;
                      > > &gt;Taiwan... well, nuff said about Taiwan.
                      > > &gt;
                      > > &gt;The Japanese occupied string of islands between Taiwan and
                      the
                      > > &gt;Japanese islands have been making main headlines news.
                      > > &gt;
                      > > &gt;The Sino-Russian border. Ah, a big can of worms. China
                      fought the
                      > > &gt;USSR on a few occasions to stalemates in most cases. The
                      Soviet
                      >Union
                      > > &gt;in principle agreed with China that Chinese territories
                      seized by
                      > > &gt;Tsarist forces during the Qing dynasty will not be valid
                      and the
                      > > &gt;territories will be returned to China especially along the
                      Amur
                      >river.
                      > > &gt; However, the Soviets backpedalled and stalled until
                      today.
                      >With the
                      > > &gt;demise of the USSR, there is now a lack of clarity on
                      where the
                      > > &gt;Russian government stands on this.
                      > > &gt;
                      > > &gt;The Sino-Mongolian border. China very early on, prompted
                      by
                      >fraternal
                      > > &gt;ties with Soviet Russian, recognised the Peoples Republic
                      of
                      >Mongolia.
                      > > &gt; This is probably the most stable of Chinese borders.
                      However, the
                      > > &gt;Mongolians have leaned towards the Russians and continue
                      to align
                      > > &gt;themselves northward to counter possible future Chinese
                      claims
                      >to the
                      > > &gt;region. Not sure what will happen here.
                      > > &gt;
                      > > &gt;Spratly &amp; Paracel islands are claimed both in part
                      and in
                      >full by
                      > > &gt;China, Vietnam, Phillipines, Malaysia &amp; Brunei.
                      China, Vietnam,
                      > > &gt;Phillipines and Malaysia all have military/civilian
                      structures on
                      > > &gt;various islands. This area has rich undersea oil reserves
                      and I
                      >doubt
                      > > &gt;any country will back down easily.
                      > > &gt;
                      > > &gt;Maoist rebels are still fighting the Nepalist government
                      for control
                      > > &gt;of this himalayan nation.
                      > > &gt;
                      > > &gt;The Sino-Burmese border is calm though very, very porous.
                      I suspect
                      > > &gt;the relatively stable border situation is due not so much
                      from a
                      >lack
                      > > &gt;of contested territories but rather because of the
                      Sino-centric
                      >stance
                      > > &gt;of the Burmese regime.
                      > > &gt;
                      > > &gt;Jieming
                      > > &gt;DragonSeedLegacy
                      > > &gt;ChineseCultureOnline
                      > > &gt;
                      > > &gt;
                      > > &gt;
                      > > &gt;--- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com,
                      &quot;qpwoeiru134679
                      >.&quot;
                      > > &gt;qpwoeiru134679@h... wrote:
                      > > &gt; &gt; The Franco-Chinese War lasted from 1884 to 1885.
                      > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;It ended with China giving up its
                      sovereignty over
                      >Annam
                      > > and Tonkin.
                      > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;
                      > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;The treaty ending the war was signed
                      on June 9, 1885.
                      > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;
                      > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;These territories were later
                      included into French
                      > > Indochina.
                      > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;
                      > > &gt; &gt;
                      > > &gt; &gt;
                      > > &gt; &gt; wait a sec... annam and tonkin? aren't those
                      OUTside
                      >china? why
                      > > would
                      > > &gt; &gt; china &quot;give&quot; them up?
                      > > &gt; &gt;
                      > > &gt; &gt; tony
                      > > &gt; &gt;
                      > > &gt; &gt;
                      >_________________________________________________________________
                      > > &gt; &gt; Take charge with a pop-up guard built on
                      patented Microsoft�
                      > > &gt;SmartScreen
                      > > &gt; &gt; Technology.
                      > > &gt; &gt;
                      > >
                      >&gt;http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&amp;page=byoa/prem&amp;xAPID=1994&a=
                      >mp;DI=1034&amp;SU=ht=
                      > > &gt;tp://hotmail.com/enca&amp;HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
                      > > &gt;
                      > > &gt; &gt; Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN�
                      Premium right
                      >now and
                      > > get the
                      > > &gt; &gt; first two months FREE*.
                      > > &gt;
                      > >
                      > > _________________________________________________________________
                      > > Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented
                      >Microsoft�
                      > > SmartScreen Technology.
                      > >
                      >http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=ht=
                      >tp://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
                      >
                      > > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN� Premium right now and
                      get the
                      > > first two months FREE*.
                      >

                      _________________________________________________________________
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                    • kitmengleong
                      Likewise Tony, likewise.Jieming DragonSeedLegacy ChineseCultureOnline--- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, qpwoeiru134679 .
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 8, 2004
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                        Likewise Tony, likewise.

                        Jieming
                        DragonSeedLegacy
                        ChineseCultureOnline



                        --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "qpwoeiru134679 ."
                        <qpwoeiru134679@h...> wrote:
                        > thx! looking forward to learning more from you.
                        >
                        > tony
                        >
                        > >From: "kitmengleong" kmleong@a...
                        > >Reply-To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                        > >To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                        > >Subject: [DragonSeedLegacy] Re: Franco-Chinese War
                        > >Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 08:48:47 -0000
                        > >
                        > >Hi Tony, that's a lot of history you've just covered in your
                        request.
                        > > :-) I'll have to come back to that and treat them separately,
                        > >Xinjiang, Tibet and Mongolia.
                        > >
                        > >Jieming
                        > >DragonSeedLegacy
                        > >ChineseCultureOnline
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >--- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "qpwoeiru134679
                        ."
                        > >qpwoeiru134679@h... wrote:
                        > > > thanks for the info!
                        > > >
                        > > > hey... one thing i've noticed...
                        > > >
                        > > > Qing included xinjiang and tibet and mongolia and
                        manchuria right?
                        > > after
                        > > > the 1911 revolution and the creation of a republic, how
                        come only
                        > >mongolia
                        > > > managed to separate?
                        > > >
                        > > > and tell me the story of how outer and inner mongolia came
                        to be
                        > >(split).
                        > > > thx!!
                        > > >
                        > > > tony
                        > > >
                        > > > &gt;From: &quot;kitmengleong&quot; kmleong@a...
                        > > > &gt;Reply-To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > &gt;To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > &gt;Subject: [DragonSeedLegacy] Re: Franco-Chinese War
                        > > > &gt;Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 06:44:39 -0000
                        > > > &gt;
                        > > > &gt;Tony, if you look at the maps of China in the
                        > &quot;Chronology of
                        > > > Chinese
                        > > > &gt;History and Culture&quot;, you'll notice that the
                        > northern part of
                        > > > today's
                        > > > &gt;Vietnam was part of China since the Yuan dynasty
                        through
                        > to the Qing
                        > > > &gt;and the Republic of China. This area exited China
                        only
                        > during the
                        > > > &gt;French rule of IndoChina and subsequent passage
                        into North
                        > Vietnam.
                        > > > &gt;China clashed with the Vietnamese on several
                        occasions for
                        > reasons
                        > > > &gt;largely only known to the Chinese themselves but were
                        > never really
                        > > > &gt;very successful, notably in 1979 and then again in
                        1984.
                        > > > &gt;
                        > > > &gt;China has border disputes all around it's borders,
                        and
                        > though they
                        > > > &gt;have by and large abided by the treaties and border
                        > agreements in
                        > > > &gt;place, they do on occasion tend to bully those with a
                        > weaker ability
                        > > > &gt;to defend their border claims, militarily as well as
                        > politically.
                        > > > &gt;
                        > > > &gt;The Sino-Indian border is still contested with the
                        Chinese
                        > >holding the
                        > > > &gt;upper hand after defeating India in a series of border
                        > >skirmishes and
                        > > > &gt;one full blown war in 1962.
                        > > > &gt;
                        > > > &gt;China has concluded border agreements with the new
                        > independant
                        > > > &gt;ex-soviet republics on it's western borders with many
                        > concessions
                        > > > &gt;going to China in return for stability and
                        recognition of,
                        > and for
                        > > > &gt;China to drop claims to the region.
                        > > > &gt;
                        > > > &gt;Taiwan... well, nuff said about Taiwan.
                        > > > &gt;
                        > > > &gt;The Japanese occupied string of islands between
                        Taiwan and
                        > the
                        > > > &gt;Japanese islands have been making main headlines news.
                        > > > &gt;
                        > > > &gt;The Sino-Russian border. Ah, a big can of worms.
                        China
                        > fought the
                        > > > &gt;USSR on a few occasions to stalemates in most
                        cases. The
                        > Soviet
                        > >Union
                        > > > &gt;in principle agreed with China that Chinese
                        territories
                        > seized by
                        > > > &gt;Tsarist forces during the Qing dynasty will not be
                        valid
                        > and the
                        > > > &gt;territories will be returned to China especially
                        along the
                        > Amur
                        > >river.
                        > > > &gt; However, the Soviets backpedalled and stalled until
                        > today.
                        > >With the
                        > > > &gt;demise of the USSR, there is now a lack of clarity on
                        > where the
                        > > > &gt;Russian government stands on this.
                        > > > &gt;
                        > > > &gt;The Sino-Mongolian border. China very early on,
                        prompted
                        > by
                        > >fraternal
                        > > > &gt;ties with Soviet Russian, recognised the Peoples
                        Republic
                        > of
                        > >Mongolia.
                        > > > &gt; This is probably the most stable of Chinese
                        borders.
                        > However, the
                        > > > &gt;Mongolians have leaned towards the Russians and
                        continue
                        > to align
                        > > > &gt;themselves northward to counter possible future
                        Chinese
                        > claims
                        > >to the
                        > > > &gt;region. Not sure what will happen here.
                        > > > &gt;
                        > > > &gt;Spratly &amp; Paracel islands are claimed both
                        in part
                        > and in
                        > >full by
                        > > > &gt;China, Vietnam, Phillipines, Malaysia &amp;
                        Brunei.
                        > China, Vietnam,
                        > > > &gt;Phillipines and Malaysia all have military/civilian
                        > structures on
                        > > > &gt;various islands. This area has rich undersea oil
                        reserves
                        > and I
                        > >doubt
                        > > > &gt;any country will back down easily.
                        > > > &gt;
                        > > > &gt;Maoist rebels are still fighting the Nepalist
                        government
                        > for control
                        > > > &gt;of this himalayan nation.
                        > > > &gt;
                        > > > &gt;The Sino-Burmese border is calm though very, very
                        porous.
                        > I suspect
                        > > > &gt;the relatively stable border situation is due not
                        so much
                        > from a
                        > >lack
                        > > > &gt;of contested territories but rather because of the
                        > Sino-centric
                        > >stance
                        > > > &gt;of the Burmese regime.
                        > > > &gt;
                        > > > &gt;Jieming
                        > > > &gt;DragonSeedLegacy
                        > > > &gt;ChineseCultureOnline
                        > > > &gt;
                        > > > &gt;
                        > > > &gt;
                        > > > &gt;--- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com,
                        > &quot;qpwoeiru134679
                        > >.&quot;
                        > > > &gt;qpwoeiru134679@h... wrote:
                        > > > &gt; &gt; The Franco-Chinese War lasted from 1884
                        to 1885.
                        > > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;It ended with China giving
                        up its
                        > sovereignty over
                        > >Annam
                        > > > and Tonkin.
                        > > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;
                        > > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;The treaty ending the war
                        was signed
                        > on June 9, 1885.
                        > > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;
                        > > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;These territories were later
                        > included into French
                        > > > Indochina.
                        > > > &gt; &gt; &amp;gt;
                        > > > &gt; &gt;
                        > > > &gt; &gt;
                        > > > &gt; &gt; wait a sec... annam and tonkin? aren't
                        those
                        > OUTside
                        > >china? why
                        > > > would
                        > > > &gt; &gt; china &quot;give&quot; them up?
                        > > > &gt; &gt;
                        > > > &gt; &gt; tony
                        > > > &gt; &gt;
                        > > > &gt; &gt;
                        > >_________________________________________________________________
                        > > > &gt; &gt; Take charge with a pop-up guard built on
                        > patented Microsoft®
                        > > > &gt;SmartScreen
                        > > > &gt; &gt; Technology.
                        > > > &gt; &gt;
                        > > >
                        >
                        >&gt;http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&amp;page=byoa/prem&=
                        amp;xAPID=1994&a=
                        > >mp;DI=1034&amp;SU=ht=
                        > > > &gt;tp://hotmail.com/enca&amp;HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
                        > > > &gt;
                        > > > &gt; &gt; Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN®
                        > Premium right
                        > >now and
                        > > > get the
                        > > > &gt; &gt; first two months FREE*.
                        > > > &gt;
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        _________________________________________________________________
                        > > > Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on
                        patented
                        > >Microsoft®
                        > > > SmartScreen Technology.
                        > > >
                        >
                        >http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&a=
                        mp;DI=1034&SU=ht=
                        > >tp://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
                        > >
                        > > > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right
                        now and
                        > get the
                        > > > first two months FREE*.
                        > >
                        >
                        > _________________________________________________________________
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                      • kitmengleong
                        Chang Chien (Zhang Qian) - The Man who discovered Europe Excerpt from Lords of the Rim , Bantam Press 1995, Peggy & Sterling Seagrave. This was the first
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 12, 2004
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                          Chang Chien (Zhang Qian) - The Man who 'discovered' Europe

                          Excerpt from "Lords of the Rim", Bantam Press 1995, Peggy & Sterling
                          Seagrave.

                          "This was the first time China looked outward. As the Han domain
                          spread far and wide, ambitious young men began careers as
                          explorers. One who ventured bravely across the steppes of Central
                          Asia in 139 BC - fourteen centuries befor Marco Polo and sixteen
                          centuries before Columbus - 'discovered' Europe, the Mediterranean
                          and the Alantic Ocean. Thanks to Chang Chien's reconnaissance,
                          nomad raids diminished and the first garrisioned Silk Roads were
                          established between China and the West. Another trade route through
                          Burma to Siam and India (long used secretly by Chinese merchants)
                          was officially identified. And the sea route from South China
                          across the Indian Ocean to Arabia and Africa was found to be seeded
                          already with small Overseas Chinese merchant colonies more than two
                          thousand years ago.
                          Before Chang Chien's secret mission, the Chinese government knew
                          and cared little about what lay beyond its borders. The treeless
                          steppes spread like a broad superhighway from Mongolia to Bulgaria,
                          the killing field of wild nmad cavalries. As far back as 3000BC
                          merchants in Mesopotamia, Persia and India started long-distance
                          caravan trade with each other around the Asian mountain ranges.
                          Raiding these caravans and isolated trading posts provided an easy
                          source of food and luxuries to the nomads. Over the ages they
                          struck in wave after wave, from the Cimmerians and Scythians to the
                          Huns and Mongols. They swarmed out of nowhere, massacred villages
                          on the edges of the steppes, then vanished.
                          On China's borders, the most aggressive of these nomads were the
                          Hsiung-nu, who ruled the wastes from the Pamirs to Siberia. They
                          led as many as three hundred thousand horsemen at a time in
                          homicidal raids on border cities, killing for fun. The Chinese were
                          unable to wage long punitive campaigns deep into the deserts or
                          steppes because hundreds of wagon teams were needed to carry
                          provisions for as little as three months. When they withdrew, the
                          nomads simply resumed their guerrilla raids. In the Han Dynasty a
                          new alliance of Hsiung-nu tribes brought a fresh wave of fear to
                          outlying districts. As first the Han emperors chose the soft
                          weapon, by sending frightened pricesses to the nomad Son-of-Heaven,
                          or Shan-yu, but efforts to buy a lasting peace failed because
                          centuries of conflict had made a tradtition of treachery.
                          Prospects improved when Emperor Wu-ti learned of a split in nomad
                          ranks. A prisoner reported that the Hsiung-nu had murdered the
                          ruler of the tribe called the Yueh-chih, and disgraced his spirit by
                          using his skull as a drinking cup. The Yueh-chih, who had then fled
                          westward across the desert with a burning grudge, might no be
                          willing to ally with China against the Hsiung-nu.
                          The emperor decided to send a secret agent to sound them out.
                          Among the officers who applied for the job was Chang Chien. A tough
                          and intelligent soldier, he was a perfect scout because his good
                          nature assured him of a warm welcome wherever he went. He was given
                          the official role of ambassador and set out with a retimue of a
                          hundred guided by a Hsiung-nu prisoner named Kan-fu, an expert
                          archer who knew secret sources of water in the desert.
                          Personally, Chang Chien was motivated by curiousity as much as by
                          ambition. At a time when expanding the empire was a fashionable
                          idea, a poor but talented man could make his fortune while
                          satisfying his own craving for adventure.
                          Few Chinese had ever gone by choice into the steppes or acress the
                          trackless wastes of the Takla Makan and Gobi deserts. During times
                          of chaos and insurrection, educated Chinese mandarins or generals
                          sometimes defected to the nomads or to the southern barbarians.
                          Mountain passes in the north, west and south were convenient
                          doorways to safety...
                          Chang Chien's party travelled west for many days, crossing deserts
                          and mountain ranges until, deep in nomad territory, they were
                          ambused and taken before the maximum leader, the Shan-yu. He
                          thought their whole mission was ridiculous: 'Do you suppose that if
                          I tried to send an embassy to the kingdom of Yueh, that the Han
                          would let my men pass through China?'
                          He put Chang Chient under house arrest for the next ten years,
                          looked after by the faithful servant Kan-fu. To help pass the time,
                          Chang Chient was given as beautiful nomad wife, who bore him a
                          strapping son. Eventually the warriors stopped guarding him
                          closely, and Chang Chient fled with his wife and son and servant to
                          continue his sacred mission to the west.
                          Riding as fast as they could to Ferghana, in what is now
                          Tadzhikistan and Uzbekistan, they were made welcome by its king, who
                          provided them with guides and interpreters for the next leg of their
                          journey. Eventually Chang Chien caught up with the displaced Yueh-
                          chih people, the original goal of his secret mission. He found them
                          totally changed. In the intervening years, they had captured the
                          rich region of Bactria south of the Oxus River and made themselves
                          its new rulers, living a sensual and indulgent life at the expense
                          of its people. The last thing they wanted was to forfeit this
                          pleasant existense to resure their old blood feud with the Hsiung-
                          nu. As to avenging their dead king whose skull had been used as a
                          drinking cup - his son was no longer interested.
                          Bactria, which sprawled from the Caspian Sea down past the Hindu
                          Kush to the frontier of India, had just been abandoned by the Greeks
                          as the last vestiges of Alexander the Great's empire collapsed.
                          There were still many Hellenes in Bactria, so at this moment ancient
                          China was brushing its fingertips against those of ancient Greece.
                          Chang Chient learned things no CHinse officer before him had ever
                          known. After a year in Bactria gathering exotic intelligence, he
                          resigned himself to the failure of his original mission and began
                          the long trek back to China, hoping that the things he ahd heared
                          about the West would keep his head on his shoulders. He took a
                          route from Afghanistan through the Hindu Kush, along the northern
                          slope of the Himalayas to eastern Tibet. He planned to give the
                          Hsiung-nu a wide berth and re-enter China from Tibet, through the
                          teritory of the less dangerous Chiang barbarians. But as he and his
                          tiny party were crossing the high desert above the great salt marsh
                          called Lop Nor, a lunar landscape well known in those days only to
                          small herds of wild Tibetan ass, he was ambushed once more by the
                          wily Hsiung-nu and detained for another year.
                          The leathery old Shan-yu who had been his host during his previous
                          captivity chose that awkward moment to die. A rival chief attached
                          and set himself up as the new ruler of the nomad federation. IN the
                          midst of this turmoil, Chang Chien once again fled into the night
                          with his family and his trusty servant.
                          Reaching the imperial court after an arduous mission lasting
                          thirteen years in all, Chang Chien regaled Emperor Wu-ti for days
                          and nights with his reports of places far and strange. Instead of
                          losing his head, he was rewarded with the post of palace
                          counsellor. Kan-fu, the former slave, was given the title 'Lord Who
                          Carries Out His Missions'.
                          Chang Chien told his emperor about the nomads, the great Takla
                          Makan deser, and the isolated mountain valley of Ferghana where
                          people raised 'horse so magnificent that they sweat blood'. After
                          Ferghana, he reported, all the rivers flowed west into the Caspian
                          and Aral seas, where there are many potential allies against the
                          Hsiung-nu. He talked at length about the Wu-sun nomads, who could
                          muster thirty thousand mounted archers. They were led by Kun-mo, a
                          legendary warrior who, as a child had been left in the desert to die
                          but was saved by vultures that fed him meat, and wolves that suckled
                          him. Beyond were other nomads, with ninety thousand mounted bowmen,
                          and around the Aral Sea were the Yen-tsai with one hundred thousand
                          archers. Together they could form an army nearly a quarter of
                          million strong.
                          The emperor listened spellbound to Chang Chien's accounts of
                          Bactria, and a kingdom to the south-west called Persia, whose people
                          lived in walled cities and kept records by writing horizontally on
                          strips of leather. Among the Persians were merchants from
                          Mesopotamia, and from a great western sea, the Mediterranean.
                          Beyond, in a regions that was very hot and damp, were giant birds
                          that laid eggs as big as cooking pots. Still farther, beyond the
                          Mediterranean, were other countires and a great ocean.
                          'In my travels, I saw bamboo canes and cloth from our regions of
                          Chiung and Chu (Szechuan),' Chang Chien told the emperor. 'When I
                          asked how they obtained such articles they told me "Our merchants go
                          and buy them in the markets of India."' India, he had learned, was
                          a hot, wet kingdom on the great river south-east of Persia, whose
                          people rode war elephants into battle. 'Now if the Indians obtain
                          trade goods from south-western China, they cannot be far. Instead
                          of trying to reach India by crossing the deserts of the mountains to
                          the west, a more direct route would be south by way of Shu.'
                          ....
                          In recognition of his many discoveries, Chang Chien was given the
                          title Marquis Po-wang ("Broad Vision"). he took part in various
                          military campaigns against the Hsiung-nu, but misfortune struck when
                          he arrived late at a rendezvous, and found that his general's army
                          had been wiped out. Disgraced and sentenced to die, Chang Chien was
                          allowed to live only on the condition that he pay a stiff fine and
                          give up his noble title.
                          A chance to redeem himself came when Emperor Wu-ti asked him to
                          set out once again far to the west to secure the alliance he had
                          propsed with the Wu-sun nomads in Turkestan. He was to offer their
                          leader, Kun-mo, rich gifts and bribes to attack the Hsiung-nu from
                          the rear. A treaty between China and the Wu-sun would intimidate
                          everyone, the emperor said, and they would all grovel at China's
                          feet and send tribute.
                          This time Chang Chien went well prepared, with three hundred
                          soldiers, six hundred horses, tens of thousands of cattle and sheep,
                          and wagonloads of gold and silk as gifts. When the caravan reached
                          Turkestan, Kun-mo was thunderstruck by the sigh of these riches but
                          refused to consider an alliance. Chang Chien stopped his men from
                          unloading: 'The Son of Heaven sent me with these gifts, and if you
                          do not prostrate yourself immediately to receive them, I will take
                          them all back!" This was too much for the ragged nomad chief, who
                          threw himself down and offered to sign anything. Before he could
                          change his mind, Chang Chien returned to China with the treaty and
                          was awarded with the title Grand Messanger. He died peacefully a
                          year of so afterward, happy and revered, one of the world's great
                          early explorers.
                          Thanks to his pioneering travels, sweetened with the bribes only
                          an emperor could dispense, emissaries arrived in China from India
                          and Persia For the first time, China established diplomatic and
                          trade relations with nations on the Caspian, and Black Sea, the
                          Mediterranean, and the Indian Ocean, countries that a few years
                          earlier only her much-despised merchants had known existed.
                          Han's new nomad allies, attacking from the west, helped defeat the
                          Hsiung-nu. Emperor Wu-ti personally led a victory parade to
                          celebrate the triumph.
                          Eager to acquire Ferghana horses for his own stables, Wu-ti found
                          the breeders reluctant to share their treasured steeds, so in 104BC
                          he despatched a large Chinese military force beyond the Pamirs,
                          where they had little difficulty persuading Ferghana's rulers to
                          change their minds.
                          Once China's desert frontier was secure, four international trade
                          routes came into regular use - two Silk roads, north and south of
                          the Takla Makan desert, a Jade Road through Burma to India and Siam,
                          and a sea route across the Indian Ocean. Merchants from Roman
                          Europe could venture safely along caravan routes guarded by Han army
                          outposts, stopping in oases where they mingled with Chinese traders.
                          Bolts of shimmering silk became the luxury item most sought after by
                          Roman women."
                        • omabi_us
                          Thanks for taking the time to post this fascinating information! I have seen Chang Chien s name mentioned briefly before and am eager to learn more about him.
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 1, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thanks for taking the time to post this fascinating information! I
                            have seen Chang Chien's name mentioned briefly before and am eager to
                            learn more about him. Sounds like "Lords of the Rim" might be a great
                            place to begin. Any other suggestions?

                            p.s. I'm delighted to have time to check out Dragon Seed again . . .
                            I've missed you!



                            --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong" <kmleong@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Chang Chien (Zhang Qian) - The Man who 'discovered' Europe
                            >
                            > Excerpt from "Lords of the Rim", Bantam Press 1995, Peggy &
                            Sterling
                            > Seagrave.
                            >
                            > "This was the first time China looked outward. As the Han domain
                            > spread far and wide, ambitious young men began careers as
                            > explorers. One who ventured bravely across the steppes of Central
                            > Asia in 139 BC - fourteen centuries befor Marco Polo and sixteen
                            > centuries before Columbus - 'discovered' Europe, the Mediterranean
                            > and the Alantic Ocean. Thanks to Chang Chien's reconnaissance,
                            > nomad raids diminished and the first garrisioned Silk Roads were
                            > established between China and the West. Another trade route
                            through
                            > Burma to Siam and India (long used secretly by Chinese merchants)
                            > was officially identified. And the sea route from South China
                            > across the Indian Ocean to Arabia and Africa was found to be seeded
                            > already with small Overseas Chinese merchant colonies more than two
                            > thousand years ago.
                            > Before Chang Chien's secret mission, the Chinese government knew
                            > and cared little about what lay beyond its borders. The treeless
                            > steppes spread like a broad superhighway from Mongolia to Bulgaria,
                            > the killing field of wild nmad cavalries. As far back as 3000BC
                            > merchants in Mesopotamia, Persia and India started long-distance
                            > caravan trade with each other around the Asian mountain ranges.
                            > Raiding these caravans and isolated trading posts provided an easy
                            > source of food and luxuries to the nomads. Over the ages they
                            > struck in wave after wave, from the Cimmerians and Scythians to the
                            > Huns and Mongols. They swarmed out of nowhere, massacred villages
                            > on the edges of the steppes, then vanished.
                            > On China's borders, the most aggressive of these nomads were the
                            > Hsiung-nu, who ruled the wastes from the Pamirs to Siberia. They
                            > led as many as three hundred thousand horsemen at a time in
                            > homicidal raids on border cities, killing for fun. The Chinese
                            were
                            > unable to wage long punitive campaigns deep into the deserts or
                            > steppes because hundreds of wagon teams were needed to carry
                            > provisions for as little as three months. When they withdrew, the
                            > nomads simply resumed their guerrilla raids. In the Han Dynasty a
                            > new alliance of Hsiung-nu tribes brought a fresh wave of fear to
                            > outlying districts. As first the Han emperors chose the soft
                            > weapon, by sending frightened pricesses to the nomad Son-of-Heaven,
                            > or Shan-yu, but efforts to buy a lasting peace failed because
                            > centuries of conflict had made a tradtition of treachery.
                            > Prospects improved when Emperor Wu-ti learned of a split in nomad
                            > ranks. A prisoner reported that the Hsiung-nu had murdered the
                            > ruler of the tribe called the Yueh-chih, and disgraced his spirit
                            by
                            > using his skull as a drinking cup. The Yueh-chih, who had then
                            fled
                            > westward across the desert with a burning grudge, might no be
                            > willing to ally with China against the Hsiung-nu.
                            > The emperor decided to send a secret agent to sound them out.
                            > Among the officers who applied for the job was Chang Chien. A
                            tough
                            > and intelligent soldier, he was a perfect scout because his good
                            > nature assured him of a warm welcome wherever he went. He was
                            given
                            > the official role of ambassador and set out with a retimue of a
                            > hundred guided by a Hsiung-nu prisoner named Kan-fu, an expert
                            > archer who knew secret sources of water in the desert.
                            > Personally, Chang Chien was motivated by curiousity as much as by
                            > ambition. At a time when expanding the empire was a fashionable
                            > idea, a poor but talented man could make his fortune while
                            > satisfying his own craving for adventure.
                            > Few Chinese had ever gone by choice into the steppes or acress
                            the
                            > trackless wastes of the Takla Makan and Gobi deserts. During times
                            > of chaos and insurrection, educated Chinese mandarins or generals
                            > sometimes defected to the nomads or to the southern barbarians.
                            > Mountain passes in the north, west and south were convenient
                            > doorways to safety...
                            > Chang Chien's party travelled west for many days, crossing
                            deserts
                            > and mountain ranges until, deep in nomad territory, they were
                            > ambused and taken before the maximum leader, the Shan-yu. He
                            > thought their whole mission was ridiculous: 'Do you suppose that if
                            > I tried to send an embassy to the kingdom of Yueh, that the Han
                            > would let my men pass through China?'
                            > He put Chang Chient under house arrest for the next ten years,
                            > looked after by the faithful servant Kan-fu. To help pass the
                            time,
                            > Chang Chient was given as beautiful nomad wife, who bore him a
                            > strapping son. Eventually the warriors stopped guarding him
                            > closely, and Chang Chient fled with his wife and son and servant to
                            > continue his sacred mission to the west.
                            > Riding as fast as they could to Ferghana, in what is now
                            > Tadzhikistan and Uzbekistan, they were made welcome by its king,
                            who
                            > provided them with guides and interpreters for the next leg of
                            their
                            > journey. Eventually Chang Chien caught up with the displaced Yueh-
                            > chih people, the original goal of his secret mission. He found
                            them
                            > totally changed. In the intervening years, they had captured the
                            > rich region of Bactria south of the Oxus River and made themselves
                            > its new rulers, living a sensual and indulgent life at the expense
                            > of its people. The last thing they wanted was to forfeit this
                            > pleasant existense to resure their old blood feud with the Hsiung-
                            > nu. As to avenging their dead king whose skull had been used as a
                            > drinking cup - his son was no longer interested.
                            > Bactria, which sprawled from the Caspian Sea down past the Hindu
                            > Kush to the frontier of India, had just been abandoned by the
                            Greeks
                            > as the last vestiges of Alexander the Great's empire collapsed.
                            > There were still many Hellenes in Bactria, so at this moment
                            ancient
                            > China was brushing its fingertips against those of ancient Greece.
                            > Chang Chient learned things no CHinse officer before him had ever
                            > known. After a year in Bactria gathering exotic intelligence, he
                            > resigned himself to the failure of his original mission and began
                            > the long trek back to China, hoping that the things he ahd heared
                            > about the West would keep his head on his shoulders. He took a
                            > route from Afghanistan through the Hindu Kush, along the northern
                            > slope of the Himalayas to eastern Tibet. He planned to give the
                            > Hsiung-nu a wide berth and re-enter China from Tibet, through the
                            > teritory of the less dangerous Chiang barbarians. But as he and
                            his
                            > tiny party were crossing the high desert above the great salt marsh
                            > called Lop Nor, a lunar landscape well known in those days only to
                            > small herds of wild Tibetan ass, he was ambushed once more by the
                            > wily Hsiung-nu and detained for another year.
                            > The leathery old Shan-yu who had been his host during his
                            previous
                            > captivity chose that awkward moment to die. A rival chief attached
                            > and set himself up as the new ruler of the nomad federation. IN
                            the
                            > midst of this turmoil, Chang Chien once again fled into the night
                            > with his family and his trusty servant.
                            > Reaching the imperial court after an arduous mission lasting
                            > thirteen years in all, Chang Chien regaled Emperor Wu-ti for days
                            > and nights with his reports of places far and strange. Instead of
                            > losing his head, he was rewarded with the post of palace
                            > counsellor. Kan-fu, the former slave, was given the title 'Lord
                            Who
                            > Carries Out His Missions'.
                            > Chang Chien told his emperor about the nomads, the great Takla
                            > Makan deser, and the isolated mountain valley of Ferghana where
                            > people raised 'horse so magnificent that they sweat blood'. After
                            > Ferghana, he reported, all the rivers flowed west into the Caspian
                            > and Aral seas, where there are many potential allies against the
                            > Hsiung-nu. He talked at length about the Wu-sun nomads, who could
                            > muster thirty thousand mounted archers. They were led by Kun-mo, a
                            > legendary warrior who, as a child had been left in the desert to
                            die
                            > but was saved by vultures that fed him meat, and wolves that
                            suckled
                            > him. Beyond were other nomads, with ninety thousand mounted
                            bowmen,
                            > and around the Aral Sea were the Yen-tsai with one hundred thousand
                            > archers. Together they could form an army nearly a quarter of
                            > million strong.
                            > The emperor listened spellbound to Chang Chien's accounts of
                            > Bactria, and a kingdom to the south-west called Persia, whose
                            people
                            > lived in walled cities and kept records by writing horizontally on
                            > strips of leather. Among the Persians were merchants from
                            > Mesopotamia, and from a great western sea, the Mediterranean.
                            > Beyond, in a regions that was very hot and damp, were giant birds
                            > that laid eggs as big as cooking pots. Still farther, beyond the
                            > Mediterranean, were other countires and a great ocean.
                            > 'In my travels, I saw bamboo canes and cloth from our regions of
                            > Chiung and Chu (Szechuan),' Chang Chien told the emperor. 'When I
                            > asked how they obtained such articles they told me "Our merchants
                            go
                            > and buy them in the markets of India."' India, he had learned, was
                            > a hot, wet kingdom on the great river south-east of Persia, whose
                            > people rode war elephants into battle. 'Now if the Indians obtain
                            > trade goods from south-western China, they cannot be far. Instead
                            > of trying to reach India by crossing the deserts of the mountains
                            to
                            > the west, a more direct route would be south by way of Shu.'
                            > ....
                            > In recognition of his many discoveries, Chang Chien was given the
                            > title Marquis Po-wang ("Broad Vision"). he took part in various
                            > military campaigns against the Hsiung-nu, but misfortune struck
                            when
                            > he arrived late at a rendezvous, and found that his general's army
                            > had been wiped out. Disgraced and sentenced to die, Chang Chien
                            was
                            > allowed to live only on the condition that he pay a stiff fine and
                            > give up his noble title.
                            > A chance to redeem himself came when Emperor Wu-ti asked him to
                            > set out once again far to the west to secure the alliance he had
                            > propsed with the Wu-sun nomads in Turkestan. He was to offer their
                            > leader, Kun-mo, rich gifts and bribes to attack the Hsiung-nu from
                            > the rear. A treaty between China and the Wu-sun would intimidate
                            > everyone, the emperor said, and they would all grovel at China's
                            > feet and send tribute.
                            > This time Chang Chien went well prepared, with three hundred
                            > soldiers, six hundred horses, tens of thousands of cattle and
                            sheep,
                            > and wagonloads of gold and silk as gifts. When the caravan reached
                            > Turkestan, Kun-mo was thunderstruck by the sigh of these riches but
                            > refused to consider an alliance. Chang Chien stopped his men from
                            > unloading: 'The Son of Heaven sent me with these gifts, and if you
                            > do not prostrate yourself immediately to receive them, I will take
                            > them all back!" This was too much for the ragged nomad chief, who
                            > threw himself down and offered to sign anything. Before he could
                            > change his mind, Chang Chien returned to China with the treaty and
                            > was awarded with the title Grand Messanger. He died peacefully a
                            > year of so afterward, happy and revered, one of the world's great
                            > early explorers.
                            > Thanks to his pioneering travels, sweetened with the bribes only
                            > an emperor could dispense, emissaries arrived in China from India
                            > and Persia For the first time, China established diplomatic and
                            > trade relations with nations on the Caspian, and Black Sea, the
                            > Mediterranean, and the Indian Ocean, countries that a few years
                            > earlier only her much-despised merchants had known existed.
                            > Han's new nomad allies, attacking from the west, helped defeat
                            the
                            > Hsiung-nu. Emperor Wu-ti personally led a victory parade to
                            > celebrate the triumph.
                            > Eager to acquire Ferghana horses for his own stables, Wu-ti found
                            > the breeders reluctant to share their treasured steeds, so in 104BC
                            > he despatched a large Chinese military force beyond the Pamirs,
                            > where they had little difficulty persuading Ferghana's rulers to
                            > change their minds.
                            > Once China's desert frontier was secure, four international trade
                            > routes came into regular use - two Silk roads, north and south of
                            > the Takla Makan desert, a Jade Road through Burma to India and
                            Siam,
                            > and a sea route across the Indian Ocean. Merchants from Roman
                            > Europe could venture safely along caravan routes guarded by Han
                            army
                            > outposts, stopping in oases where they mingled with Chinese
                            traders.
                            > Bolts of shimmering silk became the luxury item most sought after
                            by
                            > Roman women."
                            >
                          • kitmengleong
                            Hi! Haven t heard from you in a looooong while! How have you been? Busy writing your books? Lords of the Rim is a pretty entertaining read but as Kenneth
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 1, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi!

                              Haven't heard from you in a looooong while! How have you been? Busy
                              writing your books?

                              Lords of the Rim is a pretty entertaining read but as Kenneth would
                              probably jump in a tell you, written not as serious history but rather
                              sensationally. ;)

                              I personally love these stories of early explorers too. I think there
                              are a whole bunch of other stories in the files area. I'll see what
                              else I can dig up for you on Chang Chien if you like.

                              Jieming
                              DragonSeedLegacy
                              ChineseCultureOnline


                              --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "omabi_us" <goatmountain@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Thanks for taking the time to post this fascinating information! I
                              > have seen Chang Chien's name mentioned briefly before and am eager to
                              > learn more about him. Sounds like "Lords of the Rim" might be a great
                              > place to begin. Any other suggestions?
                              >
                              > p.s. I'm delighted to have time to check out Dragon Seed again . . .
                              > I've missed you!
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong" <kmleong@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Chang Chien (Zhang Qian) - The Man who 'discovered' Europe
                              > >
                              > > Excerpt from "Lords of the Rim", Bantam Press 1995, Peggy &
                              > Sterling
                              > > Seagrave.
                              > >
                              > > "This was the first time China looked outward. As the Han domain
                              > > spread far and wide, ambitious young men began careers as
                              > > explorers. One who ventured bravely across the steppes of Central
                              > > Asia in 139 BC - fourteen centuries befor Marco Polo and sixteen
                              > > centuries before Columbus - 'discovered' Europe, the Mediterranean
                              > > and the Alantic Ocean. Thanks to Chang Chien's reconnaissance,
                              > > nomad raids diminished and the first garrisioned Silk Roads were
                              > > established between China and the West. Another trade route
                              > through
                              > > Burma to Siam and India (long used secretly by Chinese merchants)
                              > > was officially identified. And the sea route from South China
                              > > across the Indian Ocean to Arabia and Africa was found to be seeded
                              > > already with small Overseas Chinese merchant colonies more than two
                              > > thousand years ago.
                              > > Before Chang Chien's secret mission, the Chinese government knew
                              > > and cared little about what lay beyond its borders. The treeless
                              > > steppes spread like a broad superhighway from Mongolia to Bulgaria,
                              > > the killing field of wild nmad cavalries. As far back as 3000BC
                              > > merchants in Mesopotamia, Persia and India started long-distance
                              > > caravan trade with each other around the Asian mountain ranges.
                              > > Raiding these caravans and isolated trading posts provided an easy
                              > > source of food and luxuries to the nomads. Over the ages they
                              > > struck in wave after wave, from the Cimmerians and Scythians to the
                              > > Huns and Mongols. They swarmed out of nowhere, massacred villages
                              > > on the edges of the steppes, then vanished.
                              > > On China's borders, the most aggressive of these nomads were the
                              > > Hsiung-nu, who ruled the wastes from the Pamirs to Siberia. They
                              > > led as many as three hundred thousand horsemen at a time in
                              > > homicidal raids on border cities, killing for fun. The Chinese
                              > were
                              > > unable to wage long punitive campaigns deep into the deserts or
                              > > steppes because hundreds of wagon teams were needed to carry
                              > > provisions for as little as three months. When they withdrew, the
                              > > nomads simply resumed their guerrilla raids. In the Han Dynasty a
                              > > new alliance of Hsiung-nu tribes brought a fresh wave of fear to
                              > > outlying districts. As first the Han emperors chose the soft
                              > > weapon, by sending frightened pricesses to the nomad Son-of-Heaven,
                              > > or Shan-yu, but efforts to buy a lasting peace failed because
                              > > centuries of conflict had made a tradtition of treachery.
                              > > Prospects improved when Emperor Wu-ti learned of a split in nomad
                              > > ranks. A prisoner reported that the Hsiung-nu had murdered the
                              > > ruler of the tribe called the Yueh-chih, and disgraced his spirit
                              > by
                              > > using his skull as a drinking cup. The Yueh-chih, who had then
                              > fled
                              > > westward across the desert with a burning grudge, might no be
                              > > willing to ally with China against the Hsiung-nu.
                              > > The emperor decided to send a secret agent to sound them out.
                              > > Among the officers who applied for the job was Chang Chien. A
                              > tough
                              > > and intelligent soldier, he was a perfect scout because his good
                              > > nature assured him of a warm welcome wherever he went. He was
                              > given
                              > > the official role of ambassador and set out with a retimue of a
                              > > hundred guided by a Hsiung-nu prisoner named Kan-fu, an expert
                              > > archer who knew secret sources of water in the desert.
                              > > Personally, Chang Chien was motivated by curiousity as much as by
                              > > ambition. At a time when expanding the empire was a fashionable
                              > > idea, a poor but talented man could make his fortune while
                              > > satisfying his own craving for adventure.
                              > > Few Chinese had ever gone by choice into the steppes or acress
                              > the
                              > > trackless wastes of the Takla Makan and Gobi deserts. During times
                              > > of chaos and insurrection, educated Chinese mandarins or generals
                              > > sometimes defected to the nomads or to the southern barbarians.
                              > > Mountain passes in the north, west and south were convenient
                              > > doorways to safety...
                              > > Chang Chien's party travelled west for many days, crossing
                              > deserts
                              > > and mountain ranges until, deep in nomad territory, they were
                              > > ambused and taken before the maximum leader, the Shan-yu. He
                              > > thought their whole mission was ridiculous: 'Do you suppose that if
                              > > I tried to send an embassy to the kingdom of Yueh, that the Han
                              > > would let my men pass through China?'
                              > > He put Chang Chient under house arrest for the next ten years,
                              > > looked after by the faithful servant Kan-fu. To help pass the
                              > time,
                              > > Chang Chient was given as beautiful nomad wife, who bore him a
                              > > strapping son. Eventually the warriors stopped guarding him
                              > > closely, and Chang Chient fled with his wife and son and servant to
                              > > continue his sacred mission to the west.
                              > > Riding as fast as they could to Ferghana, in what is now
                              > > Tadzhikistan and Uzbekistan, they were made welcome by its king,
                              > who
                              > > provided them with guides and interpreters for the next leg of
                              > their
                              > > journey. Eventually Chang Chien caught up with the displaced Yueh-
                              > > chih people, the original goal of his secret mission. He found
                              > them
                              > > totally changed. In the intervening years, they had captured the
                              > > rich region of Bactria south of the Oxus River and made themselves
                              > > its new rulers, living a sensual and indulgent life at the expense
                              > > of its people. The last thing they wanted was to forfeit this
                              > > pleasant existense to resure their old blood feud with the Hsiung-
                              > > nu. As to avenging their dead king whose skull had been used as a
                              > > drinking cup - his son was no longer interested.
                              > > Bactria, which sprawled from the Caspian Sea down past the Hindu
                              > > Kush to the frontier of India, had just been abandoned by the
                              > Greeks
                              > > as the last vestiges of Alexander the Great's empire collapsed.
                              > > There were still many Hellenes in Bactria, so at this moment
                              > ancient
                              > > China was brushing its fingertips against those of ancient Greece.
                              > > Chang Chient learned things no CHinse officer before him had ever
                              > > known. After a year in Bactria gathering exotic intelligence, he
                              > > resigned himself to the failure of his original mission and began
                              > > the long trek back to China, hoping that the things he ahd heared
                              > > about the West would keep his head on his shoulders. He took a
                              > > route from Afghanistan through the Hindu Kush, along the northern
                              > > slope of the Himalayas to eastern Tibet. He planned to give the
                              > > Hsiung-nu a wide berth and re-enter China from Tibet, through the
                              > > teritory of the less dangerous Chiang barbarians. But as he and
                              > his
                              > > tiny party were crossing the high desert above the great salt marsh
                              > > called Lop Nor, a lunar landscape well known in those days only to
                              > > small herds of wild Tibetan ass, he was ambushed once more by the
                              > > wily Hsiung-nu and detained for another year.
                              > > The leathery old Shan-yu who had been his host during his
                              > previous
                              > > captivity chose that awkward moment to die. A rival chief attached
                              > > and set himself up as the new ruler of the nomad federation. IN
                              > the
                              > > midst of this turmoil, Chang Chien once again fled into the night
                              > > with his family and his trusty servant.
                              > > Reaching the imperial court after an arduous mission lasting
                              > > thirteen years in all, Chang Chien regaled Emperor Wu-ti for days
                              > > and nights with his reports of places far and strange. Instead of
                              > > losing his head, he was rewarded with the post of palace
                              > > counsellor. Kan-fu, the former slave, was given the title 'Lord
                              > Who
                              > > Carries Out His Missions'.
                              > > Chang Chien told his emperor about the nomads, the great Takla
                              > > Makan deser, and the isolated mountain valley of Ferghana where
                              > > people raised 'horse so magnificent that they sweat blood'. After
                              > > Ferghana, he reported, all the rivers flowed west into the Caspian
                              > > and Aral seas, where there are many potential allies against the
                              > > Hsiung-nu. He talked at length about the Wu-sun nomads, who could
                              > > muster thirty thousand mounted archers. They were led by Kun-mo, a
                              > > legendary warrior who, as a child had been left in the desert to
                              > die
                              > > but was saved by vultures that fed him meat, and wolves that
                              > suckled
                              > > him. Beyond were other nomads, with ninety thousand mounted
                              > bowmen,
                              > > and around the Aral Sea were the Yen-tsai with one hundred thousand
                              > > archers. Together they could form an army nearly a quarter of
                              > > million strong.
                              > > The emperor listened spellbound to Chang Chien's accounts of
                              > > Bactria, and a kingdom to the south-west called Persia, whose
                              > people
                              > > lived in walled cities and kept records by writing horizontally on
                              > > strips of leather. Among the Persians were merchants from
                              > > Mesopotamia, and from a great western sea, the Mediterranean.
                              > > Beyond, in a regions that was very hot and damp, were giant birds
                              > > that laid eggs as big as cooking pots. Still farther, beyond the
                              > > Mediterranean, were other countires and a great ocean.
                              > > 'In my travels, I saw bamboo canes and cloth from our regions of
                              > > Chiung and Chu (Szechuan),' Chang Chien told the emperor. 'When I
                              > > asked how they obtained such articles they told me "Our merchants
                              > go
                              > > and buy them in the markets of India."' India, he had learned, was
                              > > a hot, wet kingdom on the great river south-east of Persia, whose
                              > > people rode war elephants into battle. 'Now if the Indians obtain
                              > > trade goods from south-western China, they cannot be far. Instead
                              > > of trying to reach India by crossing the deserts of the mountains
                              > to
                              > > the west, a more direct route would be south by way of Shu.'
                              > > ....
                              > > In recognition of his many discoveries, Chang Chien was given the
                              > > title Marquis Po-wang ("Broad Vision"). he took part in various
                              > > military campaigns against the Hsiung-nu, but misfortune struck
                              > when
                              > > he arrived late at a rendezvous, and found that his general's army
                              > > had been wiped out. Disgraced and sentenced to die, Chang Chien
                              > was
                              > > allowed to live only on the condition that he pay a stiff fine and
                              > > give up his noble title.
                              > > A chance to redeem himself came when Emperor Wu-ti asked him to
                              > > set out once again far to the west to secure the alliance he had
                              > > propsed with the Wu-sun nomads in Turkestan. He was to offer their
                              > > leader, Kun-mo, rich gifts and bribes to attack the Hsiung-nu from
                              > > the rear. A treaty between China and the Wu-sun would intimidate
                              > > everyone, the emperor said, and they would all grovel at China's
                              > > feet and send tribute.
                              > > This time Chang Chien went well prepared, with three hundred
                              > > soldiers, six hundred horses, tens of thousands of cattle and
                              > sheep,
                              > > and wagonloads of gold and silk as gifts. When the caravan reached
                              > > Turkestan, Kun-mo was thunderstruck by the sigh of these riches but
                              > > refused to consider an alliance. Chang Chien stopped his men from
                              > > unloading: 'The Son of Heaven sent me with these gifts, and if you
                              > > do not prostrate yourself immediately to receive them, I will take
                              > > them all back!" This was too much for the ragged nomad chief, who
                              > > threw himself down and offered to sign anything. Before he could
                              > > change his mind, Chang Chien returned to China with the treaty and
                              > > was awarded with the title Grand Messanger. He died peacefully a
                              > > year of so afterward, happy and revered, one of the world's great
                              > > early explorers.
                              > > Thanks to his pioneering travels, sweetened with the bribes only
                              > > an emperor could dispense, emissaries arrived in China from India
                              > > and Persia For the first time, China established diplomatic and
                              > > trade relations with nations on the Caspian, and Black Sea, the
                              > > Mediterranean, and the Indian Ocean, countries that a few years
                              > > earlier only her much-despised merchants had known existed.
                              > > Han's new nomad allies, attacking from the west, helped defeat
                              > the
                              > > Hsiung-nu. Emperor Wu-ti personally led a victory parade to
                              > > celebrate the triumph.
                              > > Eager to acquire Ferghana horses for his own stables, Wu-ti found
                              > > the breeders reluctant to share their treasured steeds, so in 104BC
                              > > he despatched a large Chinese military force beyond the Pamirs,
                              > > where they had little difficulty persuading Ferghana's rulers to
                              > > change their minds.
                              > > Once China's desert frontier was secure, four international trade
                              > > routes came into regular use - two Silk roads, north and south of
                              > > the Takla Makan desert, a Jade Road through Burma to India and
                              > Siam,
                              > > and a sea route across the Indian Ocean. Merchants from Roman
                              > > Europe could venture safely along caravan routes guarded by Han
                              > army
                              > > outposts, stopping in oases where they mingled with Chinese
                              > traders.
                              > > Bolts of shimmering silk became the luxury item most sought after
                              > by
                              > > Roman women."
                              > >
                              >
                            • omabi_us
                              Hi Jeming! Yes, as usual, I m knee-deep in piles, scraps and wads of paper, writing and rewriting. I relish sensationalized history as well as seeing it
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 28, 2006
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                                Hi Jeming! Yes, as usual, I'm knee-deep in piles, scraps and wads of
                                paper, writing and rewriting. I relish sensationalized "history" as
                                well as seeing it debunked. Great discussion!

                                Please do dig up more files about Chang Chen.

                                Kenneth, please share your sources, too.
                                Omabi



                                --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong" <kmleong@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi!
                                >
                                > Haven't heard from you in a looooong while! How have you been?
                                Busy
                                > writing your books?
                                >
                                > Lords of the Rim is a pretty entertaining read but as Kenneth would
                                > probably jump in a tell you, written not as serious history but
                                rather
                                > sensationally. ;)
                                >
                                > I personally love these stories of early explorers too. I think
                                there
                                > are a whole bunch of other stories in the files area. I'll see what
                                > else I can dig up for you on Chang Chien if you like.
                                >
                                > Jieming
                                > DragonSeedLegacy
                                > ChineseCultureOnline
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "omabi_us" <goatmountain@>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Thanks for taking the time to post this fascinating information!
                                I
                                > > have seen Chang Chien's name mentioned briefly before and am
                                eager to
                                > > learn more about him. Sounds like "Lords of the Rim" might be a
                                great
                                > > place to begin. Any other suggestions?
                                > >
                                > > p.s. I'm delighted to have time to check out Dragon Seed
                                again . . .
                                > > I've missed you!
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong"
                                <kmleong@>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Chang Chien (Zhang Qian) - The Man who 'discovered' Europe
                                > > >
                                > > > Excerpt from "Lords of the Rim", Bantam Press 1995, Peggy &
                                > > Sterling
                                > > > Seagrave.
                                > > >
                                > > > "This was the first time China looked outward. As the Han
                                domain
                                > > > spread far and wide, ambitious young men began careers as
                                > > > explorers. One who ventured bravely across the steppes of
                                Central
                                > > > Asia in 139 BC - fourteen centuries befor Marco Polo and
                                sixteen
                                > > > centuries before Columbus - 'discovered' Europe, the
                                Mediterranean
                                > > > and the Alantic Ocean. Thanks to Chang Chien's reconnaissance,
                                > > > nomad raids diminished and the first garrisioned Silk Roads
                                were
                                > > > established between China and the West. Another trade route
                                > > through
                                > > > Burma to Siam and India (long used secretly by Chinese
                                merchants)
                                > > > was officially identified. And the sea route from South China
                                > > > across the Indian Ocean to Arabia and Africa was found to be
                                seeded
                                > > > already with small Overseas Chinese merchant colonies more than
                                two
                                > > > thousand years ago.
                                > > > Before Chang Chien's secret mission, the Chinese government
                                knew
                                > > > and cared little about what lay beyond its borders. The
                                treeless
                                > > > steppes spread like a broad superhighway from Mongolia to
                                Bulgaria,
                                > > > the killing field of wild nmad cavalries. As far back as
                                3000BC
                                > > > merchants in Mesopotamia, Persia and India started long-
                                distance
                                > > > caravan trade with each other around the Asian mountain
                                ranges.
                                > > > Raiding these caravans and isolated trading posts provided an
                                easy
                                > > > source of food and luxuries to the nomads. Over the ages they
                                > > > struck in wave after wave, from the Cimmerians and Scythians to
                                the
                                > > > Huns and Mongols. They swarmed out of nowhere, massacred
                                villages
                                > > > on the edges of the steppes, then vanished.
                                > > > On China's borders, the most aggressive of these nomads were
                                the
                                > > > Hsiung-nu, who ruled the wastes from the Pamirs to Siberia.
                                They
                                > > > led as many as three hundred thousand horsemen at a time in
                                > > > homicidal raids on border cities, killing for fun. The Chinese
                                > > were
                                > > > unable to wage long punitive campaigns deep into the deserts or
                                > > > steppes because hundreds of wagon teams were needed to carry
                                > > > provisions for as little as three months. When they withdrew,
                                the
                                > > > nomads simply resumed their guerrilla raids. In the Han
                                Dynasty a
                                > > > new alliance of Hsiung-nu tribes brought a fresh wave of fear
                                to
                                > > > outlying districts. As first the Han emperors chose the soft
                                > > > weapon, by sending frightened pricesses to the nomad Son-of-
                                Heaven,
                                > > > or Shan-yu, but efforts to buy a lasting peace failed because
                                > > > centuries of conflict had made a tradtition of treachery.
                                > > > Prospects improved when Emperor Wu-ti learned of a split in
                                nomad
                                > > > ranks. A prisoner reported that the Hsiung-nu had murdered the
                                > > > ruler of the tribe called the Yueh-chih, and disgraced his
                                spirit
                                > > by
                                > > > using his skull as a drinking cup. The Yueh-chih, who had then
                                > > fled
                                > > > westward across the desert with a burning grudge, might no be
                                > > > willing to ally with China against the Hsiung-nu.
                                > > > The emperor decided to send a secret agent to sound them
                                out.
                                > > > Among the officers who applied for the job was Chang Chien. A
                                > > tough
                                > > > and intelligent soldier, he was a perfect scout because his
                                good
                                > > > nature assured him of a warm welcome wherever he went. He was
                                > > given
                                > > > the official role of ambassador and set out with a retimue of a
                                > > > hundred guided by a Hsiung-nu prisoner named Kan-fu, an expert
                                > > > archer who knew secret sources of water in the desert.
                                > > > Personally, Chang Chien was motivated by curiousity as much as
                                by
                                > > > ambition. At a time when expanding the empire was a
                                fashionable
                                > > > idea, a poor but talented man could make his fortune while
                                > > > satisfying his own craving for adventure.
                                > > > Few Chinese had ever gone by choice into the steppes or
                                acress
                                > > the
                                > > > trackless wastes of the Takla Makan and Gobi deserts. During
                                times
                                > > > of chaos and insurrection, educated Chinese mandarins or
                                generals
                                > > > sometimes defected to the nomads or to the southern
                                barbarians.
                                > > > Mountain passes in the north, west and south were convenient
                                > > > doorways to safety...
                                > > > Chang Chien's party travelled west for many days, crossing
                                > > deserts
                                > > > and mountain ranges until, deep in nomad territory, they were
                                > > > ambused and taken before the maximum leader, the Shan-yu. He
                                > > > thought their whole mission was ridiculous: 'Do you suppose
                                that if
                                > > > I tried to send an embassy to the kingdom of Yueh, that the Han
                                > > > would let my men pass through China?'
                                > > > He put Chang Chient under house arrest for the next ten
                                years,
                                > > > looked after by the faithful servant Kan-fu. To help pass the
                                > > time,
                                > > > Chang Chient was given as beautiful nomad wife, who bore him a
                                > > > strapping son. Eventually the warriors stopped guarding him
                                > > > closely, and Chang Chient fled with his wife and son and
                                servant to
                                > > > continue his sacred mission to the west.
                                > > > Riding as fast as they could to Ferghana, in what is now
                                > > > Tadzhikistan and Uzbekistan, they were made welcome by its
                                king,
                                > > who
                                > > > provided them with guides and interpreters for the next leg of
                                > > their
                                > > > journey. Eventually Chang Chien caught up with the displaced
                                Yueh-
                                > > > chih people, the original goal of his secret mission. He found
                                > > them
                                > > > totally changed. In the intervening years, they had captured
                                the
                                > > > rich region of Bactria south of the Oxus River and made
                                themselves
                                > > > its new rulers, living a sensual and indulgent life at the
                                expense
                                > > > of its people. The last thing they wanted was to forfeit this
                                > > > pleasant existense to resure their old blood feud with the
                                Hsiung-
                                > > > nu. As to avenging their dead king whose skull had been used
                                as a
                                > > > drinking cup - his son was no longer interested.
                                > > > Bactria, which sprawled from the Caspian Sea down past the
                                Hindu
                                > > > Kush to the frontier of India, had just been abandoned by the
                                > > Greeks
                                > > > as the last vestiges of Alexander the Great's empire
                                collapsed.
                                > > > There were still many Hellenes in Bactria, so at this moment
                                > > ancient
                                > > > China was brushing its fingertips against those of ancient
                                Greece.
                                > > > Chang Chient learned things no CHinse officer before him had
                                ever
                                > > > known. After a year in Bactria gathering exotic intelligence,
                                he
                                > > > resigned himself to the failure of his original mission and
                                began
                                > > > the long trek back to China, hoping that the things he ahd
                                heared
                                > > > about the West would keep his head on his shoulders. He took a
                                > > > route from Afghanistan through the Hindu Kush, along the
                                northern
                                > > > slope of the Himalayas to eastern Tibet. He planned to give
                                the
                                > > > Hsiung-nu a wide berth and re-enter China from Tibet, through
                                the
                                > > > teritory of the less dangerous Chiang barbarians. But as he
                                and
                                > > his
                                > > > tiny party were crossing the high desert above the great salt
                                marsh
                                > > > called Lop Nor, a lunar landscape well known in those days only
                                to
                                > > > small herds of wild Tibetan ass, he was ambushed once more by
                                the
                                > > > wily Hsiung-nu and detained for another year.
                                > > > The leathery old Shan-yu who had been his host during his
                                > > previous
                                > > > captivity chose that awkward moment to die. A rival chief
                                attached
                                > > > and set himself up as the new ruler of the nomad federation.
                                IN
                                > > the
                                > > > midst of this turmoil, Chang Chien once again fled into the
                                night
                                > > > with his family and his trusty servant.
                                > > > Reaching the imperial court after an arduous mission lasting
                                > > > thirteen years in all, Chang Chien regaled Emperor Wu-ti for
                                days
                                > > > and nights with his reports of places far and strange. Instead
                                of
                                > > > losing his head, he was rewarded with the post of palace
                                > > > counsellor. Kan-fu, the former slave, was given the
                                title 'Lord
                                > > Who
                                > > > Carries Out His Missions'.
                                > > > Chang Chien told his emperor about the nomads, the great
                                Takla
                                > > > Makan deser, and the isolated mountain valley of Ferghana where
                                > > > people raised 'horse so magnificent that they sweat blood'.
                                After
                                > > > Ferghana, he reported, all the rivers flowed west into the
                                Caspian
                                > > > and Aral seas, where there are many potential allies against
                                the
                                > > > Hsiung-nu. He talked at length about the Wu-sun nomads, who
                                could
                                > > > muster thirty thousand mounted archers. They were led by Kun-
                                mo, a
                                > > > legendary warrior who, as a child had been left in the desert
                                to
                                > > die
                                > > > but was saved by vultures that fed him meat, and wolves that
                                > > suckled
                                > > > him. Beyond were other nomads, with ninety thousand mounted
                                > > bowmen,
                                > > > and around the Aral Sea were the Yen-tsai with one hundred
                                thousand
                                > > > archers. Together they could form an army nearly a quarter of
                                > > > million strong.
                                > > > The emperor listened spellbound to Chang Chien's accounts of
                                > > > Bactria, and a kingdom to the south-west called Persia, whose
                                > > people
                                > > > lived in walled cities and kept records by writing horizontally
                                on
                                > > > strips of leather. Among the Persians were merchants from
                                > > > Mesopotamia, and from a great western sea, the Mediterranean.
                                > > > Beyond, in a regions that was very hot and damp, were giant
                                birds
                                > > > that laid eggs as big as cooking pots. Still farther, beyond
                                the
                                > > > Mediterranean, were other countires and a great ocean.
                                > > > 'In my travels, I saw bamboo canes and cloth from our regions
                                of
                                > > > Chiung and Chu (Szechuan),' Chang Chien told the
                                emperor. 'When I
                                > > > asked how they obtained such articles they told me "Our
                                merchants
                                > > go
                                > > > and buy them in the markets of India."' India, he had learned,
                                was
                                > > > a hot, wet kingdom on the great river south-east of Persia,
                                whose
                                > > > people rode war elephants into battle. 'Now if the Indians
                                obtain
                                > > > trade goods from south-western China, they cannot be far.
                                Instead
                                > > > of trying to reach India by crossing the deserts of the
                                mountains
                                > > to
                                > > > the west, a more direct route would be south by way of Shu.'
                                > > > ....
                                > > > In recognition of his many discoveries, Chang Chien was given
                                the
                                > > > title Marquis Po-wang ("Broad Vision"). he took part in
                                various
                                > > > military campaigns against the Hsiung-nu, but misfortune struck
                                > > when
                                > > > he arrived late at a rendezvous, and found that his general's
                                army
                                > > > had been wiped out. Disgraced and sentenced to die, Chang
                                Chien
                                > > was
                                > > > allowed to live only on the condition that he pay a stiff fine
                                and
                                > > > give up his noble title.
                                > > > A chance to redeem himself came when Emperor Wu-ti asked him
                                to
                                > > > set out once again far to the west to secure the alliance he
                                had
                                > > > propsed with the Wu-sun nomads in Turkestan. He was to offer
                                their
                                > > > leader, Kun-mo, rich gifts and bribes to attack the Hsiung-nu
                                from
                                > > > the rear. A treaty between China and the Wu-sun would
                                intimidate
                                > > > everyone, the emperor said, and they would all grovel at
                                China's
                                > > > feet and send tribute.
                                > > > This time Chang Chien went well prepared, with three hundred
                                > > > soldiers, six hundred horses, tens of thousands of cattle and
                                > > sheep,
                                > > > and wagonloads of gold and silk as gifts. When the caravan
                                reached
                                > > > Turkestan, Kun-mo was thunderstruck by the sigh of these riches
                                but
                                > > > refused to consider an alliance. Chang Chien stopped his men
                                from
                                > > > unloading: 'The Son of Heaven sent me with these gifts, and if
                                you
                                > > > do not prostrate yourself immediately to receive them, I will
                                take
                                > > > them all back!" This was too much for the ragged nomad chief,
                                who
                                > > > threw himself down and offered to sign anything. Before he
                                could
                                > > > change his mind, Chang Chien returned to China with the treaty
                                and
                                > > > was awarded with the title Grand Messanger. He died peacefully
                                a
                                > > > year of so afterward, happy and revered, one of the world's
                                great
                                > > > early explorers.
                                > > > Thanks to his pioneering travels, sweetened with the bribes
                                only
                                > > > an emperor could dispense, emissaries arrived in China from
                                India
                                > > > and Persia For the first time, China established diplomatic
                                and
                                > > > trade relations with nations on the Caspian, and Black Sea, the
                                > > > Mediterranean, and the Indian Ocean, countries that a few years
                                > > > earlier only her much-despised merchants had known existed.
                                > > > Han's new nomad allies, attacking from the west, helped
                                defeat
                                > > the
                                > > > Hsiung-nu. Emperor Wu-ti personally led a victory parade to
                                > > > celebrate the triumph.
                                > > > Eager to acquire Ferghana horses for his own stables, Wu-ti
                                found
                                > > > the breeders reluctant to share their treasured steeds, so in
                                104BC
                                > > > he despatched a large Chinese military force beyond the Pamirs,
                                > > > where they had little difficulty persuading Ferghana's rulers
                                to
                                > > > change their minds.
                                > > > Once China's desert frontier was secure, four international
                                trade
                                > > > routes came into regular use - two Silk roads, north and south
                                of
                                > > > the Takla Makan desert, a Jade Road through Burma to India and
                                > > Siam,
                                > > > and a sea route across the Indian Ocean. Merchants from Roman
                                > > > Europe could venture safely along caravan routes guarded by Han
                                > > army
                                > > > outposts, stopping in oases where they mingled with Chinese
                                > > traders.
                                > > > Bolts of shimmering silk became the luxury item most sought
                                after
                                > > by
                                > > > Roman women."
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
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