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Re: [DragonSeedLegacy] Re: Japan vs. China

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  • Sheila Cornelius
    tigerboycanada wrote: somebody needs to start a war. Against whom? Not the Americans who we don t know much about You don t know
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 1, 2004
      tigerboycanada <tigerboycanada@...> wrote:

      somebody needs to start a war. Against
      whom? Not the Americans who we don't know much about



      You don't know much about Americans? Where are you living?

      Sheila







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    • kitmengleong
      I think the reasons for the current hostile attitudes are varied as well as complex. This prevailing feeling of needing to catch-up both economically as
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 1, 2004
        I think the reasons for the current hostile attitudes are varied as
        well as complex. This prevailing feeling of "needing to catch-up"
        both economically as well as strategically is one of the reasons for
        the tension, as stated in your article. China is large, very
        large. Unlike your run of the mill country, when China decides to
        move, even a tiny movement in any arena will have repercussions if
        not globally, at least in the immediate regions surrounding China.

        The Japanese are not the only ones feeling the crush of an outward
        push by a growing China. Taiwan, Southeast Asia and to a lesser
        degree Russia and central asia too are feeling the effects. But it
        is the long "bad" history between the two countries wich manifests
        itself in frosty relations. China's relationship with the US has
        always been a hot-cold relationship and this adds an complication
        into the equation with Japan. How this all pans out in the near
        future is yet to be seen. It will all depend on the people in
        Zhongnanhai and how they play their cards. China is expanding at a
        time when expansion is difficult. The world of today has "shrunk"
        and gone are the "loose" conditions of yesteryear. But expand it
        must, so how it does so will be watched closely and its effects will
        be felt first by its closest neighbours like Korea, Japan and Taiwan.

        I do agree with the underlying premise of your article but do not
        subscribe to many of the more extreme points raised.

        Jieming

        --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "tigerboycanada"
        <tigerboycanada@y...> wrote:
        > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, Jane
        <ming18ming2003@y...> wrote:
        > > Were there significant events happened in 1995? Can you please
        cite
        > some evidence that supports some significant change since 1995?
        > >
        > > Thanks!
        > >
        > > Jane
        >
        >
        > There are several probable pretext to the rising ultra-
        nationalistic
        > and anti-Japanese sentiments in Mainland China:
        >
        > 1) The first concrete step of the consolidation of US-Japanese
        > military supremacy of the Asia-Pacific region, the 96 Joint
        > Declaration and the subsequent bilateral treaties, leading to the
        > projected Japanese-funded Theatre Missile Defense project.
        >
        > 2) 1996 Chinese military exercises and missile tests near Taiwan
        > responding to Lee Teng-hui's Cornell visit, inevitably involving
        the
        > previously "immobilized" and "neutral" Japan to the role of
        defending
        > Taiwan and US interests in the region.
        >
        > 3) 1995 Chinese nuclear test: Japan responded to it vocally,
        > reflecting a change in diplomatic style.
        >
        > 4) The change in Japanese diplomatic style and global strategic
        > visions is closely associated with the rise of right wing Asianist
        > political forces such as Ishihara Shintaro, which I think will take
        > the shape of Neo-Conservatism not unlike that of Thatcher, Reagan
        and
        > George W. Bush.
        >
        > 5) Chinese presence in the East China Sea, South China Sea and even
        > the Malacca Strait has been steadily increasing ever since the Deng
        > years. Japan follows China's moves closely, but only reacts at
        crucial
        > occasions. Japan is concerned that Chinese naval presence and sea-
        bed
        > development might reach the critical mass that the current Japanese
        > privilege might be forever lost. One of the hot spots is gas-oil
        > reserve under the eastern sea board near the middle line between
        the
        > tow countries. Japan started asserting its sovereignty over the
        > Senkaku/Diaoyu through concerted government-civil society efforts.
        > Chinese, Taiwanese and Hong Kong civil society reacted ferociously,
        > but were subsequently suppressed by the Chinese government(don't
        know
        > what happened to the Taiwanese). Therefore "Diaoyu" is one of the
        > catchwords of the "Angry Youth" nationalist subculture.
        >
        > HOWEVER, THE AFORMENTIONED developments are not NECESSARY
        conditions
        > to the rise of anti-Japanese sentiments. In my opinion, there are
        more
        > underlying conditions:
        >
        > the Chinese Communist Party is losing its legitimacy to rule in an
        > authoritarian fashion. Its superficial Marxist ideology is
        extremely
        > obsolete and fragile to the point that Zhongnanhai haven't bothered
        > even to parade it after the early 90s. Zhongnanhai tried to
        reinstill
        > Confucian or neo-Confucian spirit (which used to work in South
        Korea
        > and Singapore) in the newly liberalized society but was apparently
        not
        > too successful in an enormous, diverse landmass seething with
        ethnic
        > and regional awakening.
        > Therefore, the Deng era divide among leninist statism, liberal
        > democracy and neoconfucian authoritarianism have been reconfigured
        > into a sharper divide between pragmatic capitalists and angry
        > nationalists. Zhongnanhai, concerned with its own survival, was
        wise
        > to channel nationalism into its support despite the bulk of its
        > political resources stems from capitalism, and more precisely,
        crony
        > capitalism.
        > China is experiencing a rapid and uneven economic growth that
        creates
        > both stability and instability. A 8% or above economic growth has
        been
        > for a solid decade, recognized as the sole pillar of Zhongnanhai's
        > ruling legitimacy. However, such growth is untenable if the
        capital is
        > eventually controlled in the hands of multinational corporations,
        > among whom the Economic Amimals of Japan have a large share. It is
        > also untenable if the soil for such growth continues to be
        depleted:
        > pollution, massive and growing income gap, serious gender imbalance
        > with way to many young males, growing unemployment, unsustainable
        > fossile fuel consumption, and corrupt Communist officials/crony
        > capitalists literally bleeding the people and the state dry.
        >
        > Under such circumstances, the very animal instinces underneath our
        > civilized skin would tell us: somebody needs to start a war.
        Against
        > whom? Not the Americans who we don't know much about and definitely
        > not the Russians.
        > The Taiwanese could be a nice target but we would finish them in
        two
        > seconds. It is the Japs that make a perfect enemy, a perfect "Moby
        > Dick". Think about it: why should a nation of post-WWII whimps,
        dying
        > their hair blonde, worshiping Anglo-Americans and sexually
        depraved,
        > living on a crowded island nation of no natural resources, be
        enjoying
        > such privilege as a first-world nation? Who feeds the Japanese? Who
        > feeds them but the mighty military presence of the US in the
        > Asia-Pacific region? What feeds them but the uninterrupted sea
        lines
        > of communication from oil-producing Middle East to Japan, guarded
        by
        > the mighty US-Japanese naval forces? And, why should a historical
        ally
        > of Adolf Hitler enjoy a privileged position within
        the "international
        > community" and the G8 while a victor in the WWII be excluded as a
        part
        > of the authoritarian and dangerous "axis" along with Vlad Putin,
        the
        > Hindu Nationalists, the Saudi Wahhabis and the Iranian Mullahs?
        What
        > if we(angry nationalistic Chinese) could lightly divert the route
        of
        > where the oil is leading to?
        >
        > And, what happened to this sphere that was once firmly under
        the "Pax
        > Sinica" of the Heavenly Mandate? What happened to Taiwan, the
        Chinese
        > Race's legitimate access to the Pacific Ocean?
        >
        > The Nanjing Massacre is nothing. The entrenchment of US-Japanese
        > strategic partnership is everything. If we (the Chinese
        nationalists)
        > could not weaken Japan while it is still a fledgling of a world
        power,
        > then "we" will lose one competition after another.
        >
        > There are, after all, no friends, only interests.
      • tigerboycanada
        I actually know a whole lot about the States. I don t think that suffices to change the political culture of contemporary Chinese society.
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 1, 2004
          I actually know a whole lot about the States.
          I don't think that suffices to change the political culture of
          contemporary Chinese society.


          >
          > You don't know much about Americans? Where are you living?
          >
          > Sheila
          >
          >
        • tigerboycanada
          ... subscribe to many of the more extreme points raised. The Angry Youth nationalist subculture is in and of itself, extreme. Enough said.
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 1, 2004
            --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong" <kmleong@a...>
            wrote:
            >I do agree with the underlying premise of your article but do >not
            subscribe to many of the more extreme points raised.

            The "Angry Youth" nationalist subculture is in and of itself, extreme.
            Enough said.
          • kitmengleong
            This Angry Youth nationalist subculture is unavoidable and found in any country in the world. But like you said, it s a subculture, not mainstream. Anyway,
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 1, 2004
              This "Angry Youth" nationalist subculture is unavoidable and found in
              any country in the world. But like you said, it's a subculture, not
              mainstream.

              Anyway, to bring discussions back on track, many of the issues and
              problems facing China with its relations with neighbours are
              "teething" problems and there will always be opposite and conflicting
              opinions on the where, how and what it's impact would be. But what is
              true is that these interactions between China and other countries
              would be heavily influenced by their history and cultural experiences.

              Jieming



              --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "tigerboycanada"
              <tigerboycanada@y...> wrote:
              > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong" <kmleong@a...>
              > wrote:
              > >I do agree with the underlying premise of your article but do >not
              > subscribe to many of the more extreme points raised.
              >
              > The "Angry Youth" nationalist subculture is in and of itself, extreme.
              > Enough said.
            • Jane
              Ok, I can subsribe to Jieming s analytical propositions on No. 1 and No. 3 as from the below, and I am not so sure about No. 2 though. But I am not known as
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 2, 2004
                Ok, I can subsribe to Jieming's analytical propositions on No. 1 and No. 3 as from the below, and I am not so sure about No. 2 though. But I am not known as someone having any insightful views on political issues in general. Anyway, here are some of my observations.

                In 1950, not long after the foundation of People's Repubic of China (in 1949), the US invaded North Korea in an attempt to occupy Korea and then possibly overthrow the new Chinese government by some direct threats from sending troops to China through the CHinese-Korean border the Yala river. Soon after the Korea War broke out, the Chinese governement under the governship of Mao Ze Dong made an immediate decision to help Koreans, the CHinese immediate neighbors, fight against the US. We all know that the Korea war was put to an end with the defeat of the US in 1953 and what I'd like to point out is that the Chinese government was not set back with its decision to fight the war although the economy in China then was on the verge of collapse (having had wars of a decade). But of course, the situation was directly linked to the survival of the new Chinese government. And Mao and his people were surely not frightened of another battle. If I am not wrong, after the Korea war, China was
                not involved in any major war. And it does appear to me that China hasn't become extremely tough in its foreign policies over the past decades but rather as of currently is seeking for a peaceful rise with a relative soft approach in handling its foreign relations. In other words, China is putting more emphasis on its economy. Thus, we see that when Diaoyutai (Diaoyu Island) was claimed by the japanese in 2003 the Chinese government was not too agressive in confronting the japanese governemnt but only actions taken by some volunteers from the country in protest.

                With point No. 3 that the Chinese are becoming more vocal, I would say yes. But still as far as I know, the Chinese nowadays are still not much political-oriented. Most of the Chinese I know are only concerned of their family issues and things that have a direct influence over their daily life. But who knows, not until another national crisis is in place , like the one that the country had in the 1930' with the invasion of Japan, you wouldnot be able to know how nationalistic or patriotic the people are.

                Well, those are just my rather humble views on the Japan vs. China issue as inspired by Jieming's analysis. I am open-minded for possible different views. :-)

                As far as the animosity between the Chinese and the Japanese is concerned, I can say still the Chinese hasn't come to terms with the Japanese governement. In fact, many Chinese people including myself are rather very angry towards teh Japanese government knowing that they constantly deny their crimes and evils they committed over the Chinese, (to cite a few, the notorious Nanjing Massacre when 100,000 Chinese civilians in Nanjing were holocausted living, the bacteria weapons used by the Japanese on hundreds of thousands of living human....) Ok, as far as I am concerned, if the Japanese governemnt can one day acknoledge their crimes in history and make it right by telling the truth to its people, we people can forgive them and let the painful history be water under bridge as it is. Honestly and personally, I don't see much good intention from the island contry (Japan) where its resource is confined and its government has always been led by a few belligerent politicians from the
                decsendants of the warriors.

                K, I shall move on to another post. :-)

                Jane

                kitmengleong <kmleong@...> wrote:
                Yeah that seems to be a rising trend doesn't it? But could it also
                be more a matter of one or more of the following?

                1. the chinese government with it's rising economy, finding a new
                found confidence and flexing its muscles a little
                2. the chinese government, using Japan and other issues to distract
                the population from domestic shortcomings
                3. the people becoming more vocal due to the recent relaxation of
                restrictions and "freedoms"

                Whaddaya think? Maybe need to ask Jane and others who live in China
                on this.

                Jieming
                DragonSeedLegacy
                ChineseCultureOnline


                --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "tigerboycanada"
                <tigerboycanada@y...> wrote:
                > There has been a steady trend of rising anti-Japanese sentiments
                since
                > 1995, before which there was actually quite little animosity, and
                the
                > two nations were quite ready to move on from historical wounds.
                >
                > But suddenly in 1995, it just came from nowhere... strangely
                > coinciding with certain subtle changes in the governing
                superstructure...
                >
                >
                > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, Alessandro Ranieri
                > <alexcranieri@y...> wrote:
                > > In the Asian Cup, the Japanese soccer team is booed by the
                Chinese
                > fans whenever they play. And in Steven Spielberg's new
                film, "Memoirs
                > of a Geisha," a mainland actress and a Hong Kong actress were
                chosen
                > for the lead roles. I understand many Japanese were upset that the
                > role was not offered to a Japanese actress.
                > >
                > > I am wondering if there is still some friction between Japan and
                > China, after the atrocities that were committed by the Japanese in
                > World War II.
                > >
                > > On the other hand, relations between Japan and the U.S. seem to
                be
                > much better than relations between Japan and China. This despite
                the
                > fact that U.S. dropped two bombs on Japanese cities in World War
                II.



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              • kitmengleong
                Interesting to note the differences in perception on the effects, results and reasons for the Korean war from within and from without China proper. Jane s view
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 2, 2004
                  Interesting to note the differences in perception on the effects,
                  results and reasons for the Korean war from within and from without
                  China proper.

                  Jane's view possibly mirrors that of many of her countrymen while my
                  own take of the Korean conflict, sitting on the other side of the now
                  defunct "bamboo curtain" seems rather different.

                  Jieming


                  --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, Jane <ming18ming2003@y...> wrote:
                  > Ok, I can subsribe to Jieming's analytical propositions on No. 1 and
                  No. 3 as from the below, and I am not so sure about No. 2 though. But
                  I am not known as someone having any insightful views on political
                  issues in general. Anyway, here are some of my observations.
                  >
                  > In 1950, not long after the foundation of People's Repubic of China
                  (in 1949), the US invaded North Korea in an attempt to occupy Korea
                  and then possibly overthrow the new Chinese government by some direct
                  threats from sending troops to China through the CHinese-Korean border
                  the Yala river. Soon after the Korea War broke out, the Chinese
                  governement under the governship of Mao Ze Dong made an immediate
                  decision to help Koreans, the CHinese immediate neighbors, fight
                  against the US. We all know that the Korea war was put to an end with
                  the defeat of the US in 1953 and what I'd like to point out is that
                  the Chinese government was not set back with its decision to fight the
                  war although the economy in China then was on the verge of collapse
                  (having had wars of a decade). But of course, the situation was
                  directly linked to the survival of the new Chinese government. And Mao
                  and his people were surely not frightened of another battle. If I am
                  not wrong, after the Korea war, China was
                  > not involved in any major war. And it does appear to me that China
                  hasn't become extremely tough in its foreign policies over the past
                  decades but rather as of currently is seeking for a peaceful rise with
                  a relative soft approach in handling its foreign relations. In other
                  words, China is putting more emphasis on its economy. Thus, we see
                  that when Diaoyutai (Diaoyu Island) was claimed by the japanese in
                  2003 the Chinese government was not too agressive in confronting the
                  japanese governemnt but only actions taken by some volunteers from the
                  country in protest.
                  >
                  > With point No. 3 that the Chinese are becoming more vocal, I would
                  say yes. But still as far as I know, the Chinese nowadays are still
                  not much political-oriented. Most of the Chinese I know are only
                  concerned of their family issues and things that have a direct
                  influence over their daily life. But who knows, not until another
                  national crisis is in place , like the one that the country had in the
                  1930' with the invasion of Japan, you wouldnot be able to know how
                  nationalistic or patriotic the people are.
                  >
                  > Well, those are just my rather humble views on the Japan vs. China
                  issue as inspired by Jieming's analysis. I am open-minded for possible
                  different views. :-)
                  >
                  > As far as the animosity between the Chinese and the Japanese is
                  concerned, I can say still the Chinese hasn't come to terms with the
                  Japanese governement. In fact, many Chinese people including myself
                  are rather very angry towards teh Japanese government knowing that
                  they constantly deny their crimes and evils they committed over the
                  Chinese, (to cite a few, the notorious Nanjing Massacre when 100,000
                  Chinese civilians in Nanjing were holocausted living, the bacteria
                  weapons used by the Japanese on hundreds of thousands of living
                  human....) Ok, as far as I am concerned, if the Japanese governemnt
                  can one day acknoledge their crimes in history and make it right by
                  telling the truth to its people, we people can forgive them and let
                  the painful history be water under bridge as it is. Honestly and
                  personally, I don't see much good intention from the island contry
                  (Japan) where its resource is confined and its government has always
                  been led by a few belligerent politicians from the
                  > decsendants of the warriors.
                  >
                  > K, I shall move on to another post. :-)
                  >
                  > Jane
                  >
                  > kitmengleong <kmleong@a...> wrote:
                  > Yeah that seems to be a rising trend doesn't it? But could it also
                  > be more a matter of one or more of the following?
                  >
                  > 1. the chinese government with it's rising economy, finding a new
                  > found confidence and flexing its muscles a little
                  > 2. the chinese government, using Japan and other issues to distract
                  > the population from domestic shortcomings
                  > 3. the people becoming more vocal due to the recent relaxation of
                  > restrictions and "freedoms"
                  >
                  > Whaddaya think? Maybe need to ask Jane and others who live in China
                  > on this.
                  >
                  > Jieming
                  > DragonSeedLegacy
                  > ChineseCultureOnline
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "tigerboycanada"
                  > <tigerboycanada@y...> wrote:
                  > > There has been a steady trend of rising anti-Japanese sentiments
                  > since
                  > > 1995, before which there was actually quite little animosity, and
                  > the
                  > > two nations were quite ready to move on from historical wounds.
                  > >
                  > > But suddenly in 1995, it just came from nowhere... strangely
                  > > coinciding with certain subtle changes in the governing
                  > superstructure...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, Alessandro Ranieri
                  > > <alexcranieri@y...> wrote:
                  > > > In the Asian Cup, the Japanese soccer team is booed by the
                  > Chinese
                  > > fans whenever they play. And in Steven Spielberg's new
                  > film, "Memoirs
                  > > of a Geisha," a mainland actress and a Hong Kong actress were
                  > chosen
                  > > for the lead roles. I understand many Japanese were upset that the
                  > > role was not offered to a Japanese actress.
                  > > >
                  > > > I am wondering if there is still some friction between Japan and
                  > > China, after the atrocities that were committed by the Japanese in
                  > > World War II.
                  > > >
                  > > > On the other hand, relations between Japan and the U.S. seem to
                  > be
                  > > much better than relations between Japan and China. This despite
                  > the
                  > > fact that U.S. dropped two bombs on Japanese cities in World War
                  > II.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DragonSeedLegacy
                  >
                  >
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                • Jane
                  Zhaozhou Bridge Zhaozhou Bridge, aka Anji Bridge, was built during Sui Dynasty (A.D. 605 ¡V618) by mason Li Chun. It is now the oldest existing stone arch
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 3, 2004
                    Zhaozhou Bridge





                    Zhaozhou Bridge, aka Anji Bridge, was built during Sui Dynasty (A.D. 605 �V618) by mason Li Chun. It is now the oldest existing stone arch bridge in China and features a large central arch and smaller arches to the sides which is considered a break through in engineering at that time.

                    Incredibly, it survived a record of 10 flood, 8 chaotic wars and many earthquakes over the past 1,400 years since it was built.



                    Quotes from this website: http://www.beijingportal.com.cn/7838/2003/08/12/207@...

                    ��Zhaozhou Bridge is 50.82 meters long and 9.6 meters wide, the span of the large stone arch in the middle measuring 37.37 meters. There are two smaller symmetrical arches, one at each end. This kind of structure not only requires less building material but makes sluicing at times of flood easier. The bridge floor is smooth and flat with pavements for pedestrians on both sides, while carriages and carts can move in the middle. The apex of the arch is fairly high so that boats can easily clear it. The bridge is ingeniously designed with a well-proportioned layout, a solid structure, and a magnificent and attractive outward appearance. At both ends of the bridge, willow branches sway graceful, while, seen from the afar, the inverted image of the arch in the water resembles a rainbow spanning the Xiao River.��

                    ��The Zhaozhou Stone Arch Bridge was technologically the most advanced in the world then. It was remarkable achievement in the history of ancient Chinese civilization, turning over a new leaf in the annals of bridge construction in the world. Bridge building projects with a similar design did not appear in Europe until the 14th century, that is, more than seven hundred years later than the Zhaozhou Bridge.��

                    Please note there is a mistake in this sentence from the website where it says ��The person in charge of its design and construction was an artisan called Li Chun who lived more than 13,000 years ago in the Sui Dynasty��. It should be ��1,400 years ago�� instead of ��13,000 years ago��.

                    Zhaozhou bridge was named as ��International Historic Civil Engineering Landmark�� by the American Society of Civil Engineers in 1991.

                    You can find several photos I collected for the bridge under a new album ��engineering works�� in the group.

                    Jane









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                  • kitmengleong
                    Thanks Jane! I ve updated the vitalstatistics.txt file with some of the information from your post. I wouldn t call Li Chun a mason though. The term mason
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 3, 2004
                      Thanks Jane!

                      I've updated the "vitalstatistics.txt" file with some of the
                      information from your post. I wouldn't call Li Chun a mason
                      though. The term mason generally refers to a stone worker or a
                      bricklayer in modern day construction. Li Chun was more an Engineer
                      than anything since he came up with the design for the bridge as
                      well as supervised the construction of it.

                      The Zhaozhou bridge (Great Stone Bridge) is the oldest arch bridge
                      in the world and it's continued use today, still capable of carrying
                      modern-day traffic loads is a testiment to the quality of
                      engineering at the time.

                      There are pictures of it under;

                      - A Pictorial Journey -> Chinese Engineering Feats

                      Jieming
                      ps. sorry Jane hope you don't mind I moved your photos there too



                      --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, Jane <ming18ming2003@y...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Zhaozhou Bridge
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Zhaozhou Bridge, aka Anji Bridge, was built during Sui Dynasty
                      (A.D. 605 ¡V618) by mason Li Chun. It is now the oldest existing
                      stone arch bridge in China and features a large central arch and
                      smaller arches to the sides which is considered a break through in
                      engineering at that time.
                      >
                      > Incredibly, it survived a record of 10 flood, 8 chaotic wars and
                      many earthquakes over the past 1,400 years since it was built.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Quotes from this website:
                      http://www.beijingportal.com.cn/7838/2003/08/12/207@1...
                      >
                      > ¡§Zhaozhou Bridge is 50.82 meters long and 9.6 meters wide, the
                      span of the large stone arch in the middle measuring 37.37 meters.
                      There are two smaller symmetrical arches, one at each end. This kind
                      of structure not only requires less building material but makes
                      sluicing at times of flood easier. The bridge floor is smooth and
                      flat with pavements for pedestrians on both sides, while carriages
                      and carts can move in the middle. The apex of the arch is fairly
                      high so that boats can easily clear it. The bridge is ingeniously
                      designed with a well-proportioned layout, a solid structure, and a
                      magnificent and attractive outward appearance. At both ends of the
                      bridge, willow branches sway graceful, while, seen from the afar,
                      the inverted image of the arch in the water resembles a rainbow
                      spanning the Xiao River.¡¨
                      >
                      > ¡§The Zhaozhou Stone Arch Bridge was technologically the most
                      advanced in the world then. It was remarkable achievement in the
                      history of ancient Chinese civilization, turning over a new leaf in
                      the annals of bridge construction in the world. Bridge building
                      projects with a similar design did not appear in Europe until the
                      14th century, that is, more than seven hundred years later than the
                      Zhaozhou Bridge.¡¨
                      >
                      > Please note there is a mistake in this sentence from the website
                      where it says ¡§The person in charge of its design and construction
                      was an artisan called Li Chun who lived more than 13,000 years ago
                      in the Sui Dynasty¡¨. It should be ¡§1,400 years ago¡¨ instead of
                      ¡§13,000 years ago¡¨.
                      >
                      > Zhaozhou bridge was named as ¡§International Historic Civil
                      Engineering Landmark¡¨ by the American Society of Civil Engineers in
                      1991.
                      >
                      > You can find several photos I collected for the bridge under a new
                      album ¡§engineering works¡¨ in the group.
                      >
                      > Jane
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de
                      ... To be precise, it is the oldest segmented arch bridge in the world. That means that its arch is not a full half circle, as older bridges (such as those
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 3, 2004
                        -----Original Message-----
                        > Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:33:49 +0200
                        > Subject: [DragonSeedLegacy] Re: Zhaozhou Bridge

                        > The Zhaozhou bridge (Great Stone Bridge) is the oldest arch bridge
                        > in the world and it's continued use today, still capable of carrying
                        > modern-day traffic loads is a testiment to the quality of
                        > engineering at the time.

                        To be precise, it is the oldest "segmented arch" bridge in the world.
                        That means that its arch is not a full half circle, as older bridges
                        (such as those built by the Romans) used to have, but a smaller segment
                        of a circle. Many such Roman bridges and aqueducts are still standing.
                        But using such a flatter arc was still quite a interesting and
                        innovative idea.

                        Greetings
                        Karl Heinz

                        Hamburg, Germany
                      • kitmengleong
                        Yes you are right. Sorry. It s the oldest segmented arch bridge in the world which subscribes a larger circle instead of the half-circle. Thanks. Jieming
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 3, 2004
                          Yes you are right. Sorry. It's the oldest segmented arch bridge in
                          the world which subscribes a larger circle instead of the half-circle.
                          Thanks.

                          Jieming


                          --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, KH.Ranitzsch@t... wrote:
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > > Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:33:49 +0200
                          > > Subject: [DragonSeedLegacy] Re: Zhaozhou Bridge
                          >
                          > > The Zhaozhou bridge (Great Stone Bridge) is the oldest arch bridge
                          > > in the world and it's continued use today, still capable of carrying
                          > > modern-day traffic loads is a testiment to the quality of
                          > > engineering at the time.
                          >
                          > To be precise, it is the oldest "segmented arch" bridge in the world.
                          > That means that its arch is not a full half circle, as older bridges
                          > (such as those built by the Romans) used to have, but a smaller segment
                          > of a circle. Many such Roman bridges and aqueducts are still standing.
                          > But using such a flatter arc was still quite a interesting and
                          > innovative idea.
                          >
                          > Greetings
                          > Karl Heinz
                          >
                          > Hamburg, Germany
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