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silk & bamboo books?

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  • omabi_us
    Hi All! Would both bamboo strips and silk scrolls have been used for books during Qin Dynasty? Thanks as always, Omabi
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 1, 2008
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      Hi All! Would both bamboo strips and silk scrolls have been used for
      books during Qin Dynasty? Thanks as always, Omabi
    • kitmengleong
      In descending order of common usage (due to cost and ease of manufacture); Wooden strips bound in hemp or silk cord Bamboo strips bound in hemp or silk cord
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 3, 2008
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        In descending order of common usage (due to cost and ease of manufacture);

        Wooden strips bound in hemp or silk cord
        Bamboo strips bound in hemp or silk cord
        Silk

        Cheers,
        Jieming


        --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "omabi_us" <omabi_us@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi All! Would both bamboo strips and silk scrolls have been used for
        > books during Qin Dynasty? Thanks as always, Omabi
        >
      • omabi_us
        Thanks for the confirmation. Just what I needed! Omabi ... manufacture);
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 3, 2008
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          Thanks for the confirmation. Just what I needed! Omabi

          --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong" <kmleong@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > In descending order of common usage (due to cost and ease of
          manufacture);
          >
          > Wooden strips bound in hemp or silk cord
          > Bamboo strips bound in hemp or silk cord
          > Silk
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Jieming
          >
          >
          > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "omabi_us" <omabi_us@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi All! Would both bamboo strips and silk scrolls have been used for
          > > books during Qin Dynasty? Thanks as always, Omabi
          > >
          >
        • Kenneth Blair
          Bamboo slips from the Warring States period have been found in tombs and it is likely they were used earlier also. In one instance bamboo slips were used by
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 3, 2008
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            Bamboo slips from the Warring States period have been found in tombs and it is likely they were used earlier also.

            In one instance bamboo slips were used by Eastern Han tomb robbers to light the way around a Zhou tomb while they looted more 'precious' objects. Record keeping by official scribes began from at least the West Zhou, but the only documents that survive are at the oldest S&A versions that were transmitted from earlier records. The Qin was responsible for much loss of these ancient records, although some were hidden by scholars (like the Shangshu). Much more may have actually been lost during the burning of Xianyang during the collapse of Qin since this was the one archive.

            I have not heard of "wood" as such being used & bound in strips, since specifically bamboo is much more convenient to strip and dress into slips.

            Silk was not used for books to my knowledge either. The references to silk seem to be paintings and maps, but not books as such. (such as paintings found in the tombs of the WS period Marquis of Yi & Han period Lady Xin)

            Chinese are not known to have used prepared skins as a writting surface as some other ancient cultures did.

            Early paper dating from the West Han has been uncovered, meaning the stories of East Han invention may simply be a perfection of a technique (as in the pulp selection) as the early West Han examples are coarse looking.

            You are safer sticking to bamboo slips for Qin dynasty writing. That is well established both historically and in modern imagery.



            From: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of omabi_us
            Sent: Wednesday, 2 April 2008 7:57 a.m.
            To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [DSL] silk & bamboo books?

            Hi All! Would both bamboo strips and silk scrolls have been used for
            books during Qin Dynasty? Thanks as always, Omabi

            This communication, including any attachments, is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not read it - please contact me immediately, destroy it, and do not copy or use any part of this communication or disclose anything about it. Thank you. Please note that this communication does not designate an information system for the purposes of the Electronic Transactions Act 2002.
            

          • kitmengleong
            ... Wood. This I got from Everyday Life In Early Imperial China: During the Han Period 202 BC-AD 220 , Michael Loewe
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 4, 2008
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              --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Blair"
              <kenneth.blair@...> wrote:
              > I have not heard of "wood" as such being used & bound in strips, since
              > specifically bamboo is much more convenient to strip and dress into
              > slips.

              Wood. This I got from "Everyday Life In Early Imperial China: During
              the Han Period 202 BC-AD 220", Michael Loewe
            • omabi_us
              Appreciate your input, Kenneth. Could you direct me to other English sources as well? My publisher has a word count for children s manuscripts--that I ve
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 4, 2008
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                Appreciate your input, Kenneth.

                Could you direct me to other English sources as well?

                My publisher has a word count for children's manuscripts--that I've
                already exceeded--so I may stick with bamboo just to save words.
                Expediency vs. scholarship! :( Thanks again, Omabi







                --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong" <kmleong@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Blair"
                > <kenneth.blair@> wrote:
                > > I have not heard of "wood" as such being used & bound in strips, since
                > > specifically bamboo is much more convenient to strip and dress into
                > > slips.
                >
                > Wood. This I got from "Everyday Life In Early Imperial China: During
                > the Han Period 202 BC-AD 220", Michael Loewe
                >
              • omabi_us
                Great! Now I am anxious to find a copy of Everyday Life In Early Imperial China: During the Han Period 202 BC-AD 220 , Michael Loewe Omabi
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 4, 2008
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                  Great! Now I am anxious to find a copy of "Everyday Life In Early
                  Imperial China: During the Han Period 202 BC-AD 220", Michael Loewe

                  Omabi
                  >

                  --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "kitmengleong" <kmleong@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Blair"
                  > <kenneth.blair@> wrote:
                  > > I have not heard of "wood" as such being used & bound in strips, since
                  > > specifically bamboo is much more convenient to strip and dress into
                  > > slips.
                  >
                  > Wood. This I got from "Everyday Life In Early Imperial China: During
                  > the Han Period 202 BC-AD 220", Michael Loewe
                  >
                • Kenneth Blair
                  I recently got this very book, first published in the 1960 s, from Amazon. It is not expensive but it is pretty light stuff. I have too much reading to do at
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 6, 2008
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                    I recently got this very book, first published in the 1960's, from Amazon. It is not expensive but it is pretty light stuff. I have too much reading to do at present & just read the chapter on the military and was not especially impressed. It reads more like a broad narrative than a real analysis of the period, hence the 'daily life' title. 
                    I intend to do something much like it myself one day but more focused on minutae & material studies....but my narrative appraisal might read a bit darker in terms of the military situation for the Han conscripts garrisoning the frontiers.
                     
                    It is a very 'layperson' text without specific sources for comments and the author begged the indulgence of his academic peers for that style in the introduction explaining it was purposeful to make the reading accesible. Michael Loewes scholarly expertise seems to be on administration and government in other notable writings so I will need to check that portion of this book before I can judge it. He has published many oft-cited books over the decades and still publishes as of last year (The First Emperor, article in the Brit Museum text).
                     
                    The actual distinction would need to be made between bamboo and wood through, as the terms might not be mutually exclusive just that "bamboo" would be more technically correct.
                    Untill I read it though I will not know for sure, but unless it says "bamboo and dressed wood" then for wood {read} = bamboo.
                    I was scanning through part of the Hanshu on Friday (don't even recall which biography off the top of my head may have been Emperor Wen but another rushed read) but I do recall in one point the translation of a discussion by ancient characters called a document "bamboo slips". (James Legges translation)
                    When I read several sources and there is a general consensus throughout I tend to stick with such things on balance of evidence unless there is a real source for the new informations, i.e: {hypothetical quote} "slips made of cedar wood from at a tomb in Henan in year such & such."
                     
                    It is also worth noting that from the Spring & Autumn period through to the 5th century AD a pair of objects found in tombs, a 'scraping' knife & a sharpening stone, are associated with writting on slips (wood or whatever). In recent years the excavation of a Qin 'pit of terracotta scholars' has shown the figures with the ring pommeled knife and the sharpening stone on the belt of court officials.
                    These knives are for scraping the dressed slips if the character was written in error, an ancient correction pen, can remove the offending writing.
                    Amongst some of the bronze knives in my collection I have one which matches the style very well. They are different to the little knives used by the northern nomads for cutting meat & such.
                     


                    From: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of omabi_us
                    Sent: Saturday, 5 April 2008 3:44 a.m.
                    To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [DSL] silk & bamboo books?


                    Great! Now I am anxious to find a copy of "Everyday Life In Early
                    Imperial China: During the Han Period 202 BC-AD 220", Michael Loewe

                    Omabi

                    >

                    --- In DragonSeedLegacy@ yahoogroups. com, "kitmengleong" <kmleong@... >
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In
                    href="mailto:DragonSeedLegacy%40yahoogroups.com">DragonSeedLegacy@ yahoogroups. com, "Kenneth Blair"
                    > <kenneth.blair@ > wrote:
                    > > I have
                    not heard of "wood" as such being used & bound in strips, since
                    > >
                    specifically bamboo is much more convenient to strip and dress into
                    > >
                    slips.
                    >
                    > Wood. This I got from "Everyday Life In Early Imperial
                    China: During
                    > the Han Period 202 BC-AD 220", Michael
                    Loewe
                    >

                    This communication, including any attachments, is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not read it - please contact me immediately, destroy it, and do not copy or use any part of this communication or disclose anything about it. Thank you. Please note that this communication does not designate an information system for the purposes of the Electronic Transactions Act 2002.
                    

                  • kim kheong ho
                    Dear Kenneth Blair, Please find the attached website which could be answer to most of your questions. http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/ Hope this would be
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 6, 2008
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                      Dear Kenneth Blair,

                       

                      Please find the attached website which could be answer to most of your questions.

                       

                      http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/

                       

                      Hope this would be useful in your quest. when you register in this site you need to sit for some sort of general knowledge test to gain access to post your comments.

                       

                       

                      Best of luck,

                      kimkheong


                      --- On Mon, 7/4/08, Kenneth Blair <kenneth.blair@...> wrote:

                      From: Kenneth Blair <kenneth.blair@...>
                      Subject: RE: [DSL] silk & bamboo books?
                      To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Monday, 7 April, 2008, 8:12 AM

                      I recently got this very book, first published in the 1960's, from Amazon. It is not expensive but it is pretty light stuff. I have too much reading to do at present & just read the chapter on the military and was not especially impressed. It reads more like a broad narrative than a real analysis of the period, hence the 'daily life' title. 
                      I intend to do something much like it myself one day but more focused on minutae & material studies....but my narrative appraisal might read a bit darker in terms of the military situation for the Han conscripts garrisoning the frontiers.
                       
                      It is a very 'layperson' text without specific sources for comments and the author begged the indulgence of his academic peers for that style in the introduction explaining it was purposeful to make the reading accesible. Michael Loewes scholarly expertise seems to be on administration and government in other notable writings so I will need to check that portion of this book before I can judge it. He has published many oft-cited books over the decades and still publishes as of last year (The First Emperor, article in the Brit Museum text).
                       
                      The actual distinction would need to be made between bamboo and wood through, as the terms might not be mutually exclusive just that "bamboo" would be more technically correct.
                      Untill I read it though I will not know for sure, but unless it says "bamboo and dressed wood" then for wood {read} = bamboo.
                      I was scanning through part of the Hanshu on Friday (don't even recall which biography off the top of my head may have been Emperor Wen but another rushed read) but I do recall in one point the translation of a discussion by ancient characters called a document "bamboo slips". (James Legges translation)
                      When I read several sources and there is a general consensus throughout I tend to stick with such things on balance of evidence unless there is a real source for the new informations, i.e: {hypothetical quote} "slips made of cedar wood from at a tomb in Henan in year such & such."
                       
                      It is also worth noting that from the Spring & Autumn period through to the 5th century AD a pair of objects found in tombs, a 'scraping' knife & a sharpening stone, are associated with writting on slips (wood or whatever). In recent years the excavation of a Qin 'pit of terracotta scholars' has shown the figures with the ring pommeled knife and the sharpening stone on the belt of court officials.
                      These knives are for scraping the dressed slips if the character was written in error, an ancient correction pen, can remove the offending writing.
                      Amongst some of the bronze knives in my collection I have one which matches the style very well. They are different to the little knives used by the northern nomads for cutting meat & such.
                       


                      From: DragonSeedLegacy@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:DragonSeedL egacy@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of omabi_us
                      Sent: Saturday, 5 April 2008 3:44 a.m.
                      To: DragonSeedLegacy@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: Re: [DSL] silk & bamboo books?


                      Great! Now I am anxious to find a copy of "Everyday Life In Early
                      Imperial China: During the Han Period 202 BC-AD 220", Michael Loewe

                      Omabi
                      >

                      --- In DragonSeedLegacy@ yahoogroups. com, "kitmengleong" <kmleong@... >
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@ yahoogroups. com, "Kenneth Blair"
                      > <kenneth.blair@ > wrote:
                      > > I have not heard of "wood" as such being used & bound in strips, since
                      > > specifically bamboo is much more convenient to strip and dress into
                      > > slips.
                      >
                      > Wood. This I got from "Everyday Life In Early Imperial China: During
                      > the Han Period 202 BC-AD 220", Michael Loewe
                      >

                      This communication, including any attachments, is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not read it - please contact me immediately, destroy it, and do not copy or use any part of this communication or disclose anything about it. Thank you. Please note that this communication does not designate an information system for the purposes of the Electronic Transactions Act 2002.
                      



                      Yahoo! for Good helps you make a difference
                    • kim kheong ho
                      Dear Omabi, Sorry for the belated reply as i was occupied for the last few months in some projects. Kindly find the attached website which could be answer to
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 6, 2008
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                        Dear Omabi,

                         

                        Sorry for the belated reply as i was occupied for the last few months in some projects. Kindly find the attached website which could be answer to most of your questions.

                         

                        http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/

                         

                        Hope this would be helpful in your quest for the knowledge in the general history of China. when you register in this site you need to sit for some sort of general knowledge test to gain access to post your comments.

                         

                         

                        Best of luck,

                        kimkheong


                        --- On Fri, 4/4/08, omabi_us <omabi_us@...> wrote:
                        From: omabi_us <omabi_us@...>
                        Subject: Re: [DSL] silk & bamboo books?
                        To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Friday, 4 April, 2008, 10:43 PM


                        Great! Now I am anxious to find a copy of "Everyday Life In Early
                        Imperial China: During the Han Period 202 BC-AD 220", Michael Loewe

                        Omabi
                        >

                        --- In DragonSeedLegacy@ yahoogroups. com, "kitmengleong" <kmleong@... >
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@ yahoogroups. com, "Kenneth Blair"
                        > <kenneth.blair@ > wrote:
                        > > I have not heard of "wood" as such being used & bound in strips, since
                        > > specifically bamboo is much more convenient to strip and dress into
                        > > slips.
                        >
                        > Wood. This I got from "Everyday Life In Early Imperial China: During
                        > the Han Period 202 BC-AD 220", Michael Loewe
                        >



                        Yahoo! for Good helps you make a difference
                      • omabi_us
                        Thanks again, Kenneth. I appreciate you taking the time to explain. Your posts are golden. Daily Life is available in my local library system so I have it
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 8, 2008
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                          Thanks again, Kenneth. I appreciate you taking the time to explain.
                          Your posts are golden. "Daily Life" is available in my local
                          library system so I have it on order. Omabi



                          --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Blair"
                          <kenneth.blair@...> wrote:


                          >
                          > I recently got this very book, first published in the 1960's, from
                          > Amazon. It is not expensive but it is pretty light stuff. I have too
                          > much reading to do at present & just read the chapter on the military
                          > and was not especially impressed. It reads more like a broad narrative
                          > than a real analysis of the period, hence the 'daily life' title.
                          > I intend to do something much like it myself one day but more focused on
                          > minutae & material studies....but my narrative appraisal might read a
                          > bit darker in terms of the military situation for the Han conscripts
                          > garrisoning the frontiers.
                          >
                          > It is a very 'layperson' text without specific sources for comments and
                          > the author begged the indulgence of his academic peers for that style in
                          > the introduction explaining it was purposeful to make the reading
                          > accesible. Michael Loewes scholarly expertise seems to be on
                          > administration and government in other notable writings so I will need
                          > to check that portion of this book before I can judge it. He has
                          > published many oft-cited books over the decades and still publishes as
                          > of last year (The First Emperor, article in the Brit Museum text).
                          >
                          > The actual distinction would need to be made between bamboo and wood
                          > through, as the terms might not be mutually exclusive just that "bamboo"
                          > would be more technically correct.
                          > Untill I read it though I will not know for sure, but unless it says
                          > "bamboo and dressed wood" then for wood {read} = bamboo.
                          > I was scanning through part of the Hanshu on Friday (don't even recall
                          > which biography off the top of my head may have been Emperor Wen but
                          > another rushed read) but I do recall in one point the translation of a
                          > discussion by ancient characters called a document "bamboo slips".
                          > (James Legges translation)
                          > When I read several sources and there is a general consensus throughout
                          > I tend to stick with such things on balance of evidence unless there is
                          > a real source for the new informations, i.e: {hypothetical quote} "slips
                          > made of cedar wood from at a tomb in Henan in year such & such."
                          >
                          > It is also worth noting that from the Spring & Autumn period through to
                          > the 5th century AD a pair of objects found in tombs, a 'scraping' knife
                          > & a sharpening stone, are associated with writting on slips (wood or
                          > whatever). In recent years the excavation of a Qin 'pit of terracotta
                          > scholars' has shown the figures with the ring pommeled knife and the
                          > sharpening stone on the belt of court officials.
                          > These knives are for scraping the dressed slips if the character was
                          > written in error, an ancient correction pen, can remove the offending
                          > writing.
                          > Amongst some of the bronze knives in my collection I have one which
                          > matches the style very well. They are different to the little knives
                          > used by the northern nomads for cutting meat & such.
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          >
                          > From: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                          > [mailto:DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of omabi_us
                          > Sent: Saturday, 5 April 2008 3:44 a.m.
                          > To: DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [DSL] silk & bamboo books?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Great! Now I am anxious to find a copy of "Everyday Life In Early
                          > Imperial China: During the Han Period 202 BC-AD 220", Michael Loewe
                          >
                          > Omabi
                          > >
                          >
                          > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:DragonSeedLegacy%40yahoogroups.com> , "kitmengleong"
                          > <kmleong@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:DragonSeedLegacy%40yahoogroups.com> , "Kenneth Blair"
                          > > <kenneth.blair@> wrote:
                          > > > I have not heard of "wood" as such being used & bound in strips,
                          > since
                          > > > specifically bamboo is much more convenient to strip and dress into
                          > > > slips.
                          > >
                          > > Wood. This I got from "Everyday Life In Early Imperial China: During
                          > > the Han Period 202 BC-AD 220", Michael Loewe
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > This communication, including any attachments, is confidential. If
                          you are not the intended recipient, you should not read it - please
                          contact me immediately, destroy it, and do not copy or use any part of
                          this communication or disclose anything about it. Thank you. Please
                          note that this communication does not designate an information system
                          for the purposes of the Electronic Transactions Act 2002.
                          >
                        • Pattie
                          ... general knowledge test to gain access to post your comments. Actually, you get 30 posts before you need to sit for the Xiucai Exam. But, by 30 posts
                          Message 12 of 14 , Apr 14, 2008
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                            >when you register in this site you need to sit for some sort of
                            general >knowledge test to gain access to post your comments.

                            Actually, you get 30 posts before you need to sit for the Xiucai Exam.
                            But, by 30 posts you'll want to join. CHF is an amazing resource.
                            P!
                          • omabi_us
                            What a fine website! I ve spent my morning reading posts. Thanks for suggesting it. Also, Loewe s Everyday Life in Early Imperial China came in at my local
                            Message 13 of 14 , Apr 15, 2008
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                              What a fine website! I've spent my morning reading posts. Thanks for
                              suggesting it. Also, Loewe's Everyday Life in Early Imperial China
                              came in at my local library so I know how I'll spend my afternoon!
                              Thanks EVERYONE! Omabi



                              --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "Pattie" <qa9999aq@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >when you register in this site you need to sit for some sort of
                              > general >knowledge test to gain access to post your comments.
                              >
                              > Actually, you get 30 posts before you need to sit for the Xiucai Exam.
                              > But, by 30 posts you'll want to join. CHF is an amazing resource.
                              > P!
                              >
                            • kitmengleong
                              Hi Omabi, Once you hit the 30 post limit, email the administrators and tell them I recommend u for an upgrade of your account to a scholar (unlimited posting)
                              Message 14 of 14 , May 25, 2008
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                                Hi Omabi,

                                Once you hit the 30 post limit, email the administrators and tell them
                                I recommend u for an upgrade of your account to a scholar (unlimited
                                posting) account. Present them your credentials as an author of
                                children books doing research on Chinese history for your writing
                                material and they should give you an open account.

                                Jieming



                                --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "omabi_us" <omabi_us@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > What a fine website! I've spent my morning reading posts. Thanks for
                                > suggesting it. Also, Loewe's Everyday Life in Early Imperial China
                                > came in at my local library so I know how I'll spend my afternoon!
                                > Thanks EVERYONE! Omabi
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In DragonSeedLegacy@yahoogroups.com, "Pattie" <qa9999aq@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > >when you register in this site you need to sit for some sort of
                                > > general >knowledge test to gain access to post your comments.
                                > >
                                > > Actually, you get 30 posts before you need to sit for the Xiucai Exam.
                                > > But, by 30 posts you'll want to join. CHF is an amazing resource.
                                > > P!
                                > >
                                >
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